Ask HN: Are front-end developers really "developers"?
11 comments
First: What kind of working definition of "developer" are you using?
I'm inclined to say "yes". I am a front-end developer, working on everything from HTML/CSS + JS to the RoR app (controller & views, mostly. Rarely do I make changes to models, but I do poke in there to see how certain things are implemented, etc.)
Perhaps if you had asked "are front-end engineers really 'engineers'?", I would be inclined to answer "No".
I'm inclined to say "yes". I am a front-end developer, working on everything from HTML/CSS + JS to the RoR app (controller & views, mostly. Rarely do I make changes to models, but I do poke in there to see how certain things are implemented, etc.)
Perhaps if you had asked "are front-end engineers really 'engineers'?", I would be inclined to answer "No".
A developer is anyone who can use the available tools to transform something into another tool to reach a goal. A developer may do these things individually or pay others. A developer doesn't need to have skills if the developer has the resources to obtain others with the needed skills. A developer might also work for other developers in developing these tools in exchange for money.
So, yes, I think anyone can be a developer. The bar for becoming a developer isn't much higher than being able to open a web browser and perhaps search Google. For example, if you want to create an e-commerce site then there are lots of hosted services which will set one up for little to no cost.
At the end of the day, you are either reaching your goals or you aren't. Compare an grandmother who can barely figure out the internet but makes a healthy income off selling items online (perhaps things she has made which and have gained a following) and a ninja engineer who has been mired in feature creep for three years and still isn't close to getting his start-up off the ground (and probably never will)
So, yes, I think anyone can be a developer. The bar for becoming a developer isn't much higher than being able to open a web browser and perhaps search Google. For example, if you want to create an e-commerce site then there are lots of hosted services which will set one up for little to no cost.
At the end of the day, you are either reaching your goals or you aren't. Compare an grandmother who can barely figure out the internet but makes a healthy income off selling items online (perhaps things she has made which and have gained a following) and a ninja engineer who has been mired in feature creep for three years and still isn't close to getting his start-up off the ground (and probably never will)
> A developer doesn't need to have skills if the developer has the resources to obtain others with the needed skills.
A person who does not have any development skills is not a developer. The ability to hire developers does not make one a developer. If I hire someone to play some Rachmaninoff for me, am I a pianist?
> For example, if you want to create an e-commerce site then there are lots of hosted services which will set one up for little to no cost.
If you rent a hosted service with an off the shelf e-commerce site that is automatically installed by your hosting provider, you are not a developer, you are someone who has instructed a hosting company to set up an e-commerce site.
Now, you don't need to have any development skills to run a successful online business, that much is true. But you do need development skills to be an actual developer.
A person who does not have any development skills is not a developer. The ability to hire developers does not make one a developer. If I hire someone to play some Rachmaninoff for me, am I a pianist?
> For example, if you want to create an e-commerce site then there are lots of hosted services which will set one up for little to no cost.
If you rent a hosted service with an off the shelf e-commerce site that is automatically installed by your hosting provider, you are not a developer, you are someone who has instructed a hosting company to set up an e-commerce site.
Now, you don't need to have any development skills to run a successful online business, that much is true. But you do need development skills to be an actual developer.
I guess we are getting caught up in semantics here. A non-technical co-founder who has zero knowledge of even HTML / CSS but has hired a team (and has a technical co-founder) is obviously not a web developer by the job description they used to hire that team, but he is still developing that property (the domain name, which is part of the overall brand) to create value. I suppose you could also call this person a brand developer, business developer, product developer, etc.
So, this is a silly question. ;) Personally, if I'm making a profit (assuming that's my goal) then I could care less what you call me. I'm creating value where there was none before.
So, this is a silly question. ;) Personally, if I'm making a profit (assuming that's my goal) then I could care less what you call me. I'm creating value where there was none before.
> Personally, if I'm making a profit (assuming that's my goal) then I could care less what you call me. I'm creating value where there was none before.
Well that's something we can certainly agree on :)
Well that's something we can certainly agree on :)
I personally would say yes, I have done C++, simulation, AI, Perl, C#, Objective-C, Java, Lisp and many others over the course of a 25 year career. Currently I mainly do front end development which for obvious reasons requires JavaScript. I have found the problem space to be just as interesting and in some areas just as complicated as any of the rest of them. There is serious development work to be done on the front end, if one looks for that type of work. Which JavaScript lends itself to just grabbing a library like jQuery and dressing up a site without actually knowing too much about what is going on, it also lends itself to building stuff like Dojo or Node which are serious projects with complex problems being solved. Personally, I find the current era to be one of the most enjoyable times to be a developer and a lot of that has to do with what is going on in the front end.
Write code that solves problems? Check.
Full-fledged programming language? Check.
I don't see how the fact that this code runs in a browser would somehow make front-end people "not developers".
Is coding up GUI's for native mobile or traditional desktop apps also "not development"?
I don't see how the fact that this code runs in a browser would somehow make front-end people "not developers".
Is coding up GUI's for native mobile or traditional desktop apps also "not development"?
Agreed. This question is ridiculous :/.
I think my question comes from the fact that FED's need to engage less than backenders with strict compsci concepts, unless we're writing JS. I think I meant to ask whether HTML/CSS and all the variants and elaborations count as "programming".
I believe they are - more now than ever.
However, I believe a traditional developer can jump into the frontend faster than a frontend developer can move into backend development. It doesn't mean it'll look good, but a designer can help here.
Frontend development seems to revolve around dealing with finickiness, rather than dealing with sound software construction. That may be changing. And I myself a jumping into the frontend a bit more - if only to better convey my thoughts to the real frontend guys.
However, I believe a traditional developer can jump into the frontend faster than a frontend developer can move into backend development. It doesn't mean it'll look good, but a designer can help here.
Frontend development seems to revolve around dealing with finickiness, rather than dealing with sound software construction. That may be changing. And I myself a jumping into the frontend a bit more - if only to better convey my thoughts to the real frontend guys.
Front-end devs are absolutely developers. A better question is why we allow people who don't know how the web works to design for it.
Anyone that has worked on a web site or application of significant size will say that a front-end developer is as much a developer as anyone else.
Sure, HTML isn't that hard, but when you're dealing with cross-browser issues, supporting legacy browsers and then writing hundreds of lines of JavaScript you appreciate that it can be really hard work!
Sure, HTML isn't that hard, but when you're dealing with cross-browser issues, supporting legacy browsers and then writing hundreds of lines of JavaScript you appreciate that it can be really hard work!
Are back-end developers really "developers"? Surely if you aren't developing the full stack from raw minerals to painting pixels, someone else has done all the hard work, and you're just doing the easy bit and plugging it in.
Modern front-end developer is more like racing car driver, he is just driving the car aka using tools he is given by developers working on them.
what led you to ask this question? why wouldn't they be?
This is a case of worrying too much about what an irrelevant class of people thinks. Are you good at what you do? Do your peers understand your skills? Do your clients or potential clients see the value in your ability? As a primarily back end developer, that's what I care about, and I think it's a good metric.
It's natural and not necessarily wrong to look for approval, but at the end of the day, you need to judge yourself on your own ability. Other people will judge you, whether you want them to or not, but if you take them seriously -- whether they like you or not -- you have put your self-image in the wrong hands, i.e. not yours.