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18 comments
sigh seriously what the hell was tso talking about?
If you have sex with some one who lacks the mental capacity to consent or at least object, that is rape. Whether it's with someone drunk, drugged, asleep or a child.
Seriously, it's not that hard.
Anyway, I am a little bothered by how some people on HN have a tendency to dismiss issues regarding how minorities are treated within developer culture. We should be talking about such things, because minorities are members of our community. We should try to put in a little effort to see things from their perspective, to hear their concerns, if for no other reason than it is the responsible human thing to do.
Or to put it another way, the flip side of open source being open to all is being welcoming and supportive. Otherwise we risk losing contributors and reviewers, and we know that our code is better with more of both.
If you have sex with some one who lacks the mental capacity to consent or at least object, that is rape. Whether it's with someone drunk, drugged, asleep or a child.
Seriously, it's not that hard.
Anyway, I am a little bothered by how some people on HN have a tendency to dismiss issues regarding how minorities are treated within developer culture. We should be talking about such things, because minorities are members of our community. We should try to put in a little effort to see things from their perspective, to hear their concerns, if for no other reason than it is the responsible human thing to do.
Or to put it another way, the flip side of open source being open to all is being welcoming and supportive. Otherwise we risk losing contributors and reviewers, and we know that our code is better with more of both.
I have to say that I am amazed by the lack of professionalism and common decency. During a tech conference or on a tech list, the only 'insults' should be of a technical nature.
When going to a tech conference, I am not interested in sexist jokes. When I follow a specific tech mailing list, I am not interested in discussions about rape, politics, or whatever.
There are other venues to vent whatever opinions you have on such issues. If you want intimacy, there a dating clubs, etc.
Not to say that no relationships start at work or during a tech conference (I met my wife through work). But if you are not sure the other side is interested, give it time. Don't act as a predator.
When going to a tech conference, I am not interested in sexist jokes. When I follow a specific tech mailing list, I am not interested in discussions about rape, politics, or whatever.
There are other venues to vent whatever opinions you have on such issues. If you want intimacy, there a dating clubs, etc.
Not to say that no relationships start at work or during a tech conference (I met my wife through work). But if you are not sure the other side is interested, give it time. Don't act as a predator.
A Linus Torvalds quote from a slightly different context:
> ethics are to me something private. Whenever you use it as an argument for why somebody_else should do something, you're no longer being ethical, you're just being a sanctimonious dick-head.
http://linuxfr.org/nodes/85904/comments/1230981
> ethics are to me something private. Whenever you use it as an argument for why somebody_else should do something, you're no longer being ethical, you're just being a sanctimonious dick-head.
http://linuxfr.org/nodes/85904/comments/1230981
I'm not really sure what your point is by quoting that. Are you seriously trying to say that others are being "sanctimonious dick-head's" for calling out a rape apologist?
If you read the correspondence in question, I'm not sure that the fellow actually qualifies as an apologist. What's the criteria for that (serious question)?
"Anti-woman" - that's quite an accusation but that accusation is based on Tso's discussing a hypothetical situation where specifically no gender distinction is made and a male can end up being a victim (or a "victim", dependent on one's views).
Surely that just makes him misandrist as well as misogynist? I don't think anyone's arguing that male rape is exactly a social good.
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Tso's rant about rape statistics comes across as amazingly insensitive, but it also suggests an alarming incomprehension about the legal and ethical ramifications of consent. There are circumstances in which what we might call implied consent can be assumed unless explicitly withdrawn: a healthy, long-term, committed relationship in which both parties have a clearly and explicitly maintained understanding about it.
Outside of such circumstances, consent should not be assumed - particularly when alcohol is involved. In this case, the concept of "no means no" may inadvertently do something of a disservice by implying that consent is given unless it is explicitly denied. Hence we now have the concept of "yes means yes", which indicates that consent is not given unless it is granted explicitly.
Outside of such circumstances, consent should not be assumed - particularly when alcohol is involved. In this case, the concept of "no means no" may inadvertently do something of a disservice by implying that consent is given unless it is explicitly denied. Hence we now have the concept of "yes means yes", which indicates that consent is not given unless it is granted explicitly.
I'm disturbed by how emotionally indignant both the Aurora and Garret articles are in contrast with the original Ted Tso remarks. My personal expectation of a community of technically sophisticated individuals is that all convictions be subject to critical examination and nothing be taboo. I'd be much more comfortable interacting professionally with someone like Tso whose point-of-view is rationally presented, whether or not I agree with him, then with people who come across with shrill disapprobation and the intention of blackballing colleagues for their public opinions.
Terrible, terrible post to HN.
We could argue the religious context of the original asshole politician's statements. We could argue if the linux guys were actually making a point involving women at all. We could argue definitions of rape.
We could argue whether this belongs on HN. We could argue whether we should be using this platform to make morally persuasive cases about things not directly involving technology. We could argue about the role of women in tech.
The list goes on and on. This is just a really bad article. I know it's enough to flag or downvote it, but dang, guys. This should be a no-brainer. It doesn't belong on HN. The only thing this is good for is creating arguments.
This boils down to: somebody said something that I could be upset about. Now let's go punish them!
Get a grip.
We could argue the religious context of the original asshole politician's statements. We could argue if the linux guys were actually making a point involving women at all. We could argue definitions of rape.
We could argue whether this belongs on HN. We could argue whether we should be using this platform to make morally persuasive cases about things not directly involving technology. We could argue about the role of women in tech.
The list goes on and on. This is just a really bad article. I know it's enough to flag or downvote it, but dang, guys. This should be a no-brainer. It doesn't belong on HN. The only thing this is good for is creating arguments.
This boils down to: somebody said something that I could be upset about. Now let's go punish them!
Get a grip.
Don't agree at all.
This is about Open-Source developer culture, which I think is reasonably close to the HN mandate.
If 50% of the human race feels actively unsafe being near or working with prominent OS developers, that has a huge impact - on female developers, on the perception of Open Source as a whole, on the talent pool available to work on OS projects.
(Let's face it, the "legitimate rape" scandal hasn't done the GOP's public image a lot of good - do Linux users really want to be tarred with the same brush?)
Now, all of that's only a problem if the arguments made in the article hold up - but that's a matter for debate in comments. No-one's ever said that an article featured on HN had to be completely uncontroversial or universally agreed-with.
The subject matter, developer culture, is definitely relevant to HN.
This is about Open-Source developer culture, which I think is reasonably close to the HN mandate.
If 50% of the human race feels actively unsafe being near or working with prominent OS developers, that has a huge impact - on female developers, on the perception of Open Source as a whole, on the talent pool available to work on OS projects.
(Let's face it, the "legitimate rape" scandal hasn't done the GOP's public image a lot of good - do Linux users really want to be tarred with the same brush?)
Now, all of that's only a problem if the arguments made in the article hold up - but that's a matter for debate in comments. No-one's ever said that an article featured on HN had to be completely uncontroversial or universally agreed-with.
The subject matter, developer culture, is definitely relevant to HN.
If there is something intrinsic to hacker culture, that is to not care about being politically correct especially when you are talking facts. Theodore Tso simply posted a factual breakdown of what rape cases consist of. What's so wrong about that? Nothing.
This is highly overwrought, and I'm getting rather tired of submissions like this to HN. Enough with the gender warfare. I don't come here for that. The mailing list post she's exercised about is well over a year old.
see also matthew garrets article:
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/18505.html
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hm.
While these comments are indefensible, and there's been a lot of talk about that in the past it feels a little opportunistic to bring it up again now to flog The Ada Initiative which is heavily linked to on that post, and a number of click through links.
If this issue is so important, why didn't you write this two years ago?
How is there no commentary on the reactions of people to that post two years ago?
So you're a writer for the Ada Initiative right? And you wrote an article for them about this? ...and, now... it's really topical, so why not whip up some traffic for it?
Not cool. Has that icky feel of an SEO attempt; sad really, because the issue is important.
While these comments are indefensible, and there's been a lot of talk about that in the past it feels a little opportunistic to bring it up again now to flog The Ada Initiative which is heavily linked to on that post, and a number of click through links.
If this issue is so important, why didn't you write this two years ago?
How is there no commentary on the reactions of people to that post two years ago?
So you're a writer for the Ada Initiative right? And you wrote an article for them about this? ...and, now... it's really topical, so why not whip up some traffic for it?
Not cool. Has that icky feel of an SEO attempt; sad really, because the issue is important.
The post was a reaction to this post: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/18505.html, which is dated Oct. 29th.
How on earth are we supposed to know that?
It's not mentioned or linked to.
It's not mentioned or linked to.
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The Linux community can't remain silent but it doesn't converge to one opinion either.
You just get this flame war and you might figure out that there is an underlying conflict instead of unanimous point of view. Maybe there IS a problem while at least one of the sides involved pretends that there is no problem.
You just get this flame war and you might figure out that there is an underlying conflict instead of unanimous point of view. Maybe there IS a problem while at least one of the sides involved pretends that there is no problem.
P. S. I've reviewed the offending Pesce’s slides and found nothing offensive about those. Yes, there are maybe two images which seem to depict a soft form of consentual BDSM.
But if you're offended by other peoples' consentual BDSM, you are actually offended by other peoples' sexuality. Which is YOUR problem and it has nothing to do with rape concerns. If you're offended by other peoples' consentual sexuality, YOU are the offender.
But if you're offended by other peoples' consentual BDSM, you are actually offended by other peoples' sexuality. Which is YOUR problem and it has nothing to do with rape concerns. If you're offended by other peoples' consentual sexuality, YOU are the offender.
The email that kicked off this all (apparently; I think this is what started it):
(Trigger warning for sexual assault, etc. on all links here, obviously. Some semi-graphic imagery is used.)
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Rape_apology_on_LCA_maili...
It reads somewhat moderate--reading the chain of articles to get to it I rather expected a mustache-twirling misogynist, but it seems that isn't quite the case.
EDIT: Come now, downvote without explanation, especially when I've provided some of the primary material?
EDIT2: Second email here: ( http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Rape_apology_on_LCA_maili... ). That's where a lot of the bad comes from, I think, as he tries to explain further his position.
EDIT3: Some additional correspondence floating around: ( http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/ted/reply.txt ). It seems like he's more complaining about the quality of the data than really attempting to malign anti-rape sentiment.
(Trigger warning for sexual assault, etc. on all links here, obviously. Some semi-graphic imagery is used.)
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Rape_apology_on_LCA_maili...
It reads somewhat moderate--reading the chain of articles to get to it I rather expected a mustache-twirling misogynist, but it seems that isn't quite the case.
EDIT: Come now, downvote without explanation, especially when I've provided some of the primary material?
EDIT2: Second email here: ( http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Rape_apology_on_LCA_maili... ). That's where a lot of the bad comes from, I think, as he tries to explain further his position.
EDIT3: Some additional correspondence floating around: ( http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/ted/reply.txt ). It seems like he's more complaining about the quality of the data than really attempting to malign anti-rape sentiment.
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Tso went with a very unemotional approach, analyzing statistics and attempting to piece together things objectively.
Aurora was extremely emotional, describing her response as being "frightened" and terrified". Instead of disproving his research she tended towards personal attacks.
Why can't we just have an honest, straight-faced discussion about touchy subjects? It's unfortunate whenever one side holds an unpopular opinion the other feels the need to silence them.