Ask HN: How do you decide when to move jobs?
20 comments
Having recently done this a few weeks ago, I can say it was the best thing to have happened to me in the last couple of years. Every job I've gone to was a step up from where I was (responsibility wise). I have never taken a job as a lateral move. I've only jumped ship when the opportunity was better for my career.
I knew I needed a change when I found myself installing RPMs all day. Not many people are fortunate to be in an environment where they can make recommendation or changes within an organization. When I asked if I could automate some tasks, I was greeted with a roundabout explanation on why we don't automate things. That's when I knew I had to get out. Other sysadmins were "happy" with their job. I guess for some folks, a 9-5 job is all they care for.
Me? I worry about what will happen years from now. If I'm 50 and need to find a job, can I market myself against someone who is younger? If I don't build my skillset now, I'm at a disadvantage many years from now. So to answer your question, when my job becomes so easy that I don't learn anything new or I'm not afraid of an upcoming task, that's when I know I need to question myself. If I'm not challenged, then what's the point of staying?
For some, it's a paycheck and a means to pay bills and raise their family. I'm in the same boat, but I also have to look at it in terms of how can i grow as a person both professional and personally. Nothing worse than waking up in the mornig and dreading to go into work. I can happily say I dont have that feeling anymore.
I knew I needed a change when I found myself installing RPMs all day. Not many people are fortunate to be in an environment where they can make recommendation or changes within an organization. When I asked if I could automate some tasks, I was greeted with a roundabout explanation on why we don't automate things. That's when I knew I had to get out. Other sysadmins were "happy" with their job. I guess for some folks, a 9-5 job is all they care for.
Me? I worry about what will happen years from now. If I'm 50 and need to find a job, can I market myself against someone who is younger? If I don't build my skillset now, I'm at a disadvantage many years from now. So to answer your question, when my job becomes so easy that I don't learn anything new or I'm not afraid of an upcoming task, that's when I know I need to question myself. If I'm not challenged, then what's the point of staying?
For some, it's a paycheck and a means to pay bills and raise their family. I'm in the same boat, but I also have to look at it in terms of how can i grow as a person both professional and personally. Nothing worse than waking up in the mornig and dreading to go into work. I can happily say I dont have that feeling anymore.
This might sound weird, but test yourself in the morning. Do you wake up ready to get to work? Or does the thought of it keep you in bed for another hour after the initial alarm goes off? Seriously, that is how I know I like what I am doing. Do keep in mind that there are always the bad days, so do several self 'tests'.
For me, personally, the lack of learning or something challenging would be the deal breaker.
PS - And since you are near/in SF, take another posters advice and do some hiking in desolation wilderness near Tahoe's south shore. Mt. Tallac makes a great day trip and it's easy to get to with a fantastic view. (Contrary to the name, it is beautiful.)
For me, personally, the lack of learning or something challenging would be the deal breaker.
PS - And since you are near/in SF, take another posters advice and do some hiking in desolation wilderness near Tahoe's south shore. Mt. Tallac makes a great day trip and it's easy to get to with a fantastic view. (Contrary to the name, it is beautiful.)
I'm just curious what type of dev work you're doing, why did you take such below market pay without any equity? that's low for most types of dev with equity for someone with ten years experience
Note: I say "startup" because they're backed by a much larger company and only describe themselves as a startup when it is beneficial to do so
First of all, take a weekend, go to some state park within easy driving distance of San Francisco, and spend the weekend hiking around the mountains by yourself. Have this question in the back of your mind, but don't deliberately dwell on it.
When you get back, flip a coin: heads you stay, tails you move on. You have your hand over the coin and are about to remove your hand... and in your gut, there will be a split second where you can sense your hope for either heads or tails.
Then ignore the actual coin toss, and do what your gut told you.
If it were me, I'd look for another job, but YMMV.
When you get back, flip a coin: heads you stay, tails you move on. You have your hand over the coin and are about to remove your hand... and in your gut, there will be a split second where you can sense your hope for either heads or tails.
Then ignore the actual coin toss, and do what your gut told you.
If it were me, I'd look for another job, but YMMV.
You know, we actually went away for a long weekend recently and talked about this very thing but couldn't come up with a decision.
I like the coin toss idea, I'm going to try it tonight!
Why exactly would you look for another job?
I like the coin toss idea, I'm going to try it tonight!
Why exactly would you look for another job?
You describe your job as easy, and that you've stopped learning new things already. For me, that would be a dealbreaker.
I personally quit a job that was at least sort of along the lines you described, to go to graduate school. I'm now a math professor. Best decision of my life.
That said, if it were me, I would look carefully before leaping (which I'm guessing you've done thoroughly already).
Good luck!
I personally quit a job that was at least sort of along the lines you described, to go to graduate school. I'm now a math professor. Best decision of my life.
That said, if it were me, I would look carefully before leaping (which I'm guessing you've done thoroughly already).
Good luck!
It's rare to find a place to work at that you actually enjoy and like the people. You'll probably find every other job you get you will compare to your current one and realise that no matter how much money you're earning if your employer or team are rubbish it won't justify the cash.
Have you thought asking for a pay rise instead of considering to leave?
Have you thought asking for a pay rise instead of considering to leave?
You're right, and that's what worries me. Part of me knows I should be earning more and doing more interesting things but I am concerned about leaving a decent team for the unknown.
I've been considering asking for a pay rise, yes. Although I'm unsure if they'd be able to even match the market average as that'd be a big jump in both pay and benefits I guess. I always think through what my desired outcome would be before going into meetings like that. In this case, I think what I desire would be too much. Add to that the fact that my boss has pointedly told the team that he hates the 'mercenary' types around SV who are only in it for the money...
I've been considering asking for a pay rise, yes. Although I'm unsure if they'd be able to even match the market average as that'd be a big jump in both pay and benefits I guess. I always think through what my desired outcome would be before going into meetings like that. In this case, I think what I desire would be too much. Add to that the fact that my boss has pointedly told the team that he hates the 'mercenary' types around SV who are only in it for the money...
What are the barriers? This also might help you to think throught.
> Growth/Learning: If you had N+1 (degrees, title, experience) what would you be doing different at this company? Would advancement hurt the team dynamic or is it just the inertia of the system (no excuse to promote). What if your team added +1 people, would that have any effect on you/your prospects? Good/bad/indifferent
>Pay. This is also worth thinking about. What are the barriers to market pay? Do they have some-reason (stong brand, etc) or is it tactical (cash management)? Why so stingy with option/ect? How old the company is and what its brand/risk profile are are worth considering (when doing the grass is greener, both sides compare). Did you get a raw deal (because you got hired at a low rate with x% raise) or is everybody on the same bare-bones diet?
The more difficult case is when there is a team they just want to stay the same. everyone is paid the same. and everyone else but you is happy. If its a heterodox mix of pay, its easier to at least "true-up" to market. If its a heterodox mix of experience, consider saturday night live -- at some stage almost everyone moves on -- but the younger folks get a lot of exposure and skill, until they too have their fill.
Most managers won't rock the boat unless its a mission critical situation. But if you have a plan, it helps: why it makes sense you should get N+1 more $ and how PQR will make XYZ more productive and any gap ABC will be filled by LMNO...etc...no brain damage or political/ capital/blood being spilled: That helps them a lot.
> Growth/Learning: If you had N+1 (degrees, title, experience) what would you be doing different at this company? Would advancement hurt the team dynamic or is it just the inertia of the system (no excuse to promote). What if your team added +1 people, would that have any effect on you/your prospects? Good/bad/indifferent
>Pay. This is also worth thinking about. What are the barriers to market pay? Do they have some-reason (stong brand, etc) or is it tactical (cash management)? Why so stingy with option/ect? How old the company is and what its brand/risk profile are are worth considering (when doing the grass is greener, both sides compare). Did you get a raw deal (because you got hired at a low rate with x% raise) or is everybody on the same bare-bones diet?
The more difficult case is when there is a team they just want to stay the same. everyone is paid the same. and everyone else but you is happy. If its a heterodox mix of pay, its easier to at least "true-up" to market. If its a heterodox mix of experience, consider saturday night live -- at some stage almost everyone moves on -- but the younger folks get a lot of exposure and skill, until they too have their fill.
Most managers won't rock the boat unless its a mission critical situation. But if you have a plan, it helps: why it makes sense you should get N+1 more $ and how PQR will make XYZ more productive and any gap ABC will be filled by LMNO...etc...no brain damage or political/ capital/blood being spilled: That helps them a lot.
But if you're working with the understanding that you're not a "mercenary", but would rather only be compensated fairly, it's a different conversation. You're not going to be the guy who jumps for another $5k, or is changing jobs every 6 months.
You can go to some salary sites and check out what they suggest the market should be, and go into your boss talking about that, and your value to the company.
When I hear this though: >Much lower than average compensation ($95k for 10 years experience, zero equity, bad healthcare & low vacation days)
Followed by: > high profits
It makes me think that they really don't care about you.
You can go to some salary sites and check out what they suggest the market should be, and go into your boss talking about that, and your value to the company.
When I hear this though: >Much lower than average compensation ($95k for 10 years experience, zero equity, bad healthcare & low vacation days)
Followed by: > high profits
It makes me think that they really don't care about you.
1. Don't depend on your job to "teach" you new things.
2. Many times the uncool things pay the bills. Dwell on your personal commitments that require money. (Expenses, responsibilities (kids, parents etc)) and see if the risk is worth it. From what you wrote, I'm assuming that the present job is stable.
3. Get a realistic view of your job prospects in the area. Suppose you get a higher paying job, how long can they afford your "high" salary. You don't want to get into a situation where you get into a new job and get laid off after a couple of months due to recession.
2. Many times the uncool things pay the bills. Dwell on your personal commitments that require money. (Expenses, responsibilities (kids, parents etc)) and see if the risk is worth it. From what you wrote, I'm assuming that the present job is stable.
3. Get a realistic view of your job prospects in the area. Suppose you get a higher paying job, how long can they afford your "high" salary. You don't want to get into a situation where you get into a new job and get laid off after a couple of months due to recession.
1. Of course not! I do a lot of work on things in my spare time - some of that work actually led to this job. But when you're at a place 8+ hours per day, you might as well be learning and growing.
2. Correct, the job is quite stable and all our bills are easily covered. Part of my concern is I'm not making the most of my earning potential for things like savings and retirement and side business/projects.
3. I'm in San Francisco and have literally been contacted by recruiters 2-3 times a week since I arrived here 7 months ago. I don't think finding a new job is an issue. I agree that I'd have to be very careful not to join a sinking ship!
2. Correct, the job is quite stable and all our bills are easily covered. Part of my concern is I'm not making the most of my earning potential for things like savings and retirement and side business/projects.
3. I'm in San Francisco and have literally been contacted by recruiters 2-3 times a week since I arrived here 7 months ago. I don't think finding a new job is an issue. I agree that I'd have to be very careful not to join a sinking ship!
I think the fact that you even wrote this post and are questioning staying at this "startup" means it's time for you to move on. Look at what is important to you and go follow that.
You're probably right. I just don't like to leave without considering all the options first.
Talk to your boss (manager, CTO, etc...) first! You have nothing to lose by doing this. Be completely honest with them about your feelings, but phrase things in positive ways. Don't say you "already stopped learning new things", but tell them you "have a lot more to offer and ready for more challenges".
Do you know nothing cool is coming down the pipeline for the foreseeable future? Show initiative and tell them all of the things that you genuinely love about the company and how you like it there. Don't put them on the defensive or focus on the negatives. During that conversation discuss the current positives and the future positives with you as an engaged employee with more responsibility.
You have absolutely nothing to lose if you are on the fence with your decision. If they react poorly you know what you need to do. If they react positively you may have a long-term happy future there.
Do you know nothing cool is coming down the pipeline for the foreseeable future? Show initiative and tell them all of the things that you genuinely love about the company and how you like it there. Don't put them on the defensive or focus on the negatives. During that conversation discuss the current positives and the future positives with you as an engaged employee with more responsibility.
You have absolutely nothing to lose if you are on the fence with your decision. If they react poorly you know what you need to do. If they react positively you may have a long-term happy future there.
I fully agree with this approach. I'd still give some it some time to see if things can happen. If they're good they should find something to challenge you. Maybe find a side project that's challenging?
I recently changed jobs from a company after a year. They were incredible well known and respected, but I wasn't going to get anywhere. I waited for a year because many business believe it takes nearly a year to get in the groove of a position, not sure if that's entirely true but it's commonly accepted.
I recently changed jobs from a company after a year. They were incredible well known and respected, but I wasn't going to get anywhere. I waited for a year because many business believe it takes nearly a year to get in the groove of a position, not sure if that's entirely true but it's commonly accepted.
I really like this approach.
I'm quite sure I know what work is on the horizon and that it won't be very challenging and I can't see a situation where that might change either. It's just the nature of their business.
Good point about keeping it positive, I will remember that.
I'm quite sure I know what work is on the horizon and that it won't be very challenging and I can't see a situation where that might change either. It's just the nature of their business.
Good point about keeping it positive, I will remember that.
[deleted]
Pros:
Friendly, small team
Starting to get more responsibility & control over my project
Easy & low stress
Cons:
I've been here 6 months and already stopped learning new things at work (no foreseeable change either)
Much lower than average compensation ($95k for 10 years experience, zero equity, bad healthcare & low vacation days)
Ease of job makes me worry about losing my edge
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The job is based in San Francisco at a "startup" with about 40 staff members and high profits.
So HN, how would you decide?
PS. Sorry about throwaway, I know quite a few people on HN with my main account...