Ask HN: Transmoggit (aka "HTF is trim in Python?"); What next?

28 pointsby s3graham18 anni fa25 comments

Hey all,

After inerte's post a few days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=446507, I thought I'd use it as an excuse to fiddle with GAE and jQuery.

With props to Bill Watterson [1], I banged up "transmoggit": http://www.transmoggit.com/

(try something like "trim" from PHP -> Python, as an example chosen not-at-all-at-random)

It does the obvious mapping thing, and lets you add your own. That's all fine, I guess, but it's not super-useful, until the 2.0 bit kicks in and "people" start adding clever translations. Of course, no one will bother to amend translations until there's some reason to visit first.

So, my question for the wise crowd: any suggestions on how to automate getting sensible mappings for, say, the easy 50-80%?

(any other suggestions are quite welcome too :)

thanks, scott

1. http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/9876/transmog.html

11 comments

s3graham18 anni fa

And linkage for the lazy:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=446507

http://www.transmoggit.com/

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/9876/transmog.htm...

inerte18 anni fa

Hey :)

- A submit button; I typed "trim" and it did nothing :p Had to change language's dropdown or click a suggestion;

- SEO! There's no unique url, with proper title, for the entries. None searching for "trim in python" will find... my blog post is getting 2 or 3 visits a day from people searching "python trim" and/or "trim in python". And I am not even on the first page. Aactually depending on my browser and language settings, I am (5th result).

- Filter duplicates (I entered string.strip is PHP's trim twice)

- Suggest the relationship the other way around. If you know that trim == strip, why not say "hey we think strip == trim"?

How to automate? Do some similar text search thing. For example, you can get the function definition for trim() on PHP's manual, if you match against sections of Python's manual, you can offer your visitors suggestions, and let them one click away to approve the connection. Easy to do?...

Anyway, it's soooo nice to see someone implemented HTFITIP... and I really liked the clean design! And the name!

s3graham18 anni fa

Oops, no "submit" wasn't well tested obviously. Dumb! I was always selecting an item from the autocomplete.

SEO + filter, good ideas, will do.

reversed mapping: it does try to do this a little, can you describe what didn't work for you? For example, "str.lstrip" as Python->PHP doesn't have the exact answer, but does look in the other direction and you get a suggestion.

inerte17 anni fa

So I just entered len() for PHP's sizeof(), and when I searched the other way, I got a suggestion...

But I am pretty sure that when I searched strip in PHP, nothing came up. I don't remember if I clicked a suggestion item or I selected a language from the second dropdown. That might be the problem, since I think you're mapping string.strip() to trim(), and not strip() to trim(), which is understandable :) Maybe a LIKE %% search instead of =?

s3graham17 anni fa

Ah, that's probably it. Thanks, I'll look into it more carefully.

inerte17 anni fa

Hi scott!

I thought a little bit more about the SEO part and I think the best thing to do would be to drop the Ajax which loads the similar functions and go with simple GET requests, which will give you a nice url and possibilities to treat it as directories.

For example, submitting PHP's trim in Python should load this url:

http://www.transmoggit.com/php/trim/python/

Loading http://www.transmoggit.com/php/trim/

Would show trim() in every target language.

Loading http://www.transmoggit.com/php/

Would show the list of functions, maybe with the languages that you have the alternative.

Loading http://www.transmoggit.com/trim/python/

Would show the equivalent on "from" languages.

I don't know how much serious you're about this project :) I really think it can make you some money, maybe not enough to make you quit your EA job :) but certainly some to help pay the bills.

I also don't know how much SEO you know, but basically you need to think what content your webpage should have to answer typicals queries on your market. For example:

q: trim python

- Put "trim in python" on http://www.transmoggit.com/trim/python/ on the title, and a H1.

q: python remove whitespace

This is what I've used a couple times, many moons ago, when "python trim" didn't return good results.

You can answer this query, if on your http://www.transmoggit.com/trim/python/ page, you list excerpts of the manual of the "from" languages. Upon loading /trim/python/, you select the from languages, its functions where you know the similarity, and show something like:

<ul> <li> <h2>C#</h2> <p>transmoggit doesn't know how <a href="/c#/trim/python/">C#'s trim in Python</a></p> </li> <li> <h2>PHP</h2> <p><a href="/php/trim/python/">PHP's trim in Python</a> is <a href="python_manual_for_string.strip</a>.</p> <p>Here is PHP's manual definition for trim:</p> <p>This function returns a string with whitespace stripped from the beginning and end of str . Without the second parameter...</p> </li> </ul>

I know that's a lot of stuff! But you seem to have experience with software development... then you know software it's always 90% complete :)

Good luck!

s3graham17 anni fa

Hey inerte

Thanks for all your suggestions. I'm not too knowledgeable in all-things-SEO, but this all sounds reasonable. (The anal-retentive programmer in me doesn't like the vagueness in the method name.. what if there's a language called trim? :) but something along those lines makes sense. I remember reading that /php-trim-python was recommended for urls (vs php_trim_python or something). Is there a consensus on whether dir/ecto/ries are better or worse than hyphens?

The only thing I'm not sure about, is that I want to make sure the main user experience of looking up one function is as fast as possible. I thought it would be a bit faster to not have the search redirect to another page. On the other hand, google.com is obviously "fast", so maybe it doesn't matter too much.

I don't personally think it's a money maker, my general feeling is that programmers are too "tech-savvy" to click on many ads. But who knows, I guess. Either way, I'm just doing it because it's fun, and somewhat useful for me. I love my "real" job anyway, so, not really looking to quit. :)

Thanks again for all the feedback, scott

inerte17 anni fa

Dashes vs. underscores are different because search engines see dashes as spaces, so /my-cool-blog is actually /my cool blog while /my_cool_blog is /my_cool_blog (a single word :)

Here's a page where Matt Cutts, head of Webspam on Google, explain: http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/dashes-vs-underscores/ Several other people working with SEO have come independently with this observation. And I am pretty sure I've seen a page from an Yahoo guy saying the same thing (but can't find right now).

dir/ecto/ries are used to divide content into "sections". One good example is:

/news/sports/basketball - News about basketball

/news/sports - Sports news

/news - All news

So you can have /news/politics and /news/economy too.

While if you do:

/news-sports-basketball it doesn't look like the division is there. Think a few years ago, when url mapping/rewrite wasn't much used. The / character was a actual physical folder/directory on the machine. Therefore, if you were a search engine, you would assume that everything under /news/sports/basketball falls into a "cluster" of related content. You would think that probably /news/sports/basketball/1 and /news/sports/basketball/2 are related.

Programmers don't click ads, FACT. Maybe programmers looking for travel information ;) but not researching for (usually) work related stuff. My HTF post got over 3k hits in 2 days. I really can't tell for sure, but I don't think there was a single click on my ads. Maybe one click, actually. The situation is worsened because the hn crowd is not simple programmers, we live and breath the net. So we're ad blind. The poor guy coding Java on a consulting gig on a branch of a financial firm, while he is more ad-blind than soccer moms, it's not something you can base your income (at least not only Adsense).

Now, I didn't optimize my ad placement, so I could do better. But from a ~0.70% CTR on my main domain to almost zero... that's quite a lot.

Of course, while programmers are generally ad-blind, it all depends. For example, selling .NET books on a .NET oriented website works...

While I agree that looking for a function on transmoggit is fast because of Ajax, people have to know about transmoggit first :) And the truth is, depending on your market and your brand, 60% to 100% of your visitors will come from search engines. Sure, after a while, you'll start to get referrals, but how did the person who linked to you found the page? Using search engines.

Don't see SEO as a way to trick the search engines ;) I know there's a lot of bad karma around its practices, but if you think that by applying SEO to your pages, you're just making easier for people to find your content, then you'll be happy to do it.

I don't know if you can ask around EA for its website statistics. I am pretty sure you'll see that >75% of its visitors come from search engines, even on obvious cases People type the domain name on search engines, for fsck's sake. Or what could actually just be the domain name if they followed with .com (searching for Youtube to go to... youtube.com).

There's actually some very good explanations for this behaviour, for example if I want to see the webpage for the Dead Space game, I don't have to guess if it is deadspace.com, deadspacegame.com, deadspace.ea.com, deadspace.games.ea.com, etc... Typing "dead space game" on Google is 100% more effective.

I am talking too much :) And I don't want to complicate things further to you. But just make it easier for people to find the webpages :)

s3graham17 anni fa

Thanks for all the info, much appreciated. On the off chance you see this old thread, the "category"-type links from a few posts above are implemented now. I'm not sure if it'll help people find the pages, but I'll find out soon enough I guess. :)

The best type of ad that came to mind was a programming-job-ad, since that would be very targeted and possibly useful, but I suppose Joel and 37s have that market covered pretty well.

Haven't fixed all the UI bugs people noticed or added too much more data/languages yet... next weekend I guess. :/

inerte17 anni fa

Hey scott, I click my own comments link here on HN regularly :p

Yeah, just saw "categories" http://www.transmoggit.com/PHP/trim/Python

If you go to Google and type "site:www.transmoggit.com" you'll see what pages it has indexed. I just did and there's no "sub-page" indexed, just your domain name... but this is normal! In my experince, Google will show the domain index first and other pages in 1-2 weeks.

And since sometimes the pages Google shows are different between its datacenters, here's something that I use to see among them all:

http://www.seochat.com/seo-tools/multiple-datacenter-google-...

About Job ads, I don't remember the company name, but I did see someone who works with a referral program. You show their ads, and if it works, you get paid.

But anyway, if your site gets somewhat popular, you can ask for a lower price than Joel and 37s. If companies have to pay $250/$350 to ad on these sites, a $10 fee on yours will be an impulse buy :) And you can always raise the price if it works...

mseebach17 anni fa

First impression: Nowhere near enough swearwords :)

Also, if I type "trim" and hit enter, I get imagick_trimimage. If there's an exact match, I very much probably want that.

s3graham17 anni fa

Thanks, will do (the second part anyway :). I'm using jQuery's autocomplete but it's maddeningly broken in those sorts of subtle ways.

mattmcknight18 anni fa

It looks like a hard part is going to be method scoping. For things that aren't in the global namespace, it's sort of hard to give a single answer, because you are asking two questions (e.g., which object or module and which method or function?). It might be better to pick the object/module first, and then the method/function.

s3graham17 anni fa

I felt like it was probably always method/function name that you would care about. That was mostly based on the assumption that similarly named methods on any object do similar things, at least in the language's standard libraries.

Did you have a specific language/module/class/method (or set of them) in mind?

tow2117 anni fa

Any chance of adding Javascript as an option? I spend half my life tripping up over Javascript/Python inconsistencies, this would be immensely useful.

Also, I'm not convinced your google account sign in thing works right; I clicked on it to login to google, and then google didn't know where to redirect me to.

s3graham17 anni fa

Yeah, JS vs Py drives me crazy too. JavaScript is high on my todo list. Just need to find the "canonical" reference for it.

I can't reproduce the login problems? Non-gmail.com acct? Browser/OS matter?

jgfoot18 anni fa

this is awesome.

Automating the first 50-80%? Try some very simple natural language processing, with a human being acting as a sanity check. If the PHP documentation for a function is "upper case" and the Python documentation for something also is "upper case," then the two might be similar...

s3graham17 anni fa

Hmm, sounds interesting.

In practice, I'm not sure what it looks like. I wonder if something like "minimum number of edits" would work? Probably not, I guess since that's more like a "diff" and the docs are not likely to be similar in that way.

Perhaps just "the function who's documentation uses the most same words", stripping common words? Perhaps that could be improved a bit via synonyms too.

SapphireSun17 anni fa

Awesome!

I couldn't figure out how to submit it though :(

I know it's probably a bad idea, but I feel wistful for the original "How the fuck is ___ in ___?"

revorad17 anni fa

This is awesome. What about VB? :-P

jonursenbach17 anni fa

This is pretty sick. Nice job.

ctice17 anni fa

"Shucks, the transmogrifier doesn't know what PHP's count is in PHP."

hehe

s3graham17 anni fa

heh, I tried to fix that in the UI (the wrong place, obviously). There's some browser that doesn't do <option disabled> I guess?

Perhaps a sarcastic answer is the best solution. ;)

andr17 anni fa

What about Scala?

s3graham17 anni fa

Sure, I'll try to add it.

I don't personally use Scala: what reference would you like to see? http://scala-tools.org/scaladocs/scala-library/2.7.1/ or is there something better?