India announces plans for a Mars mission in 2013(hurriyetdailynews.com)
hurriyetdailynews.com
India announces plans for a Mars mission in 2013
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/india-announces-plans-for-a-mars-mission-in-2013.aspx?pageID=238&nID=27844&NewsCatID=374#.UCtnBISQa1I.twitter
12 comments
Chandrayaan-1 was a pretty successful mission by all accounts though despite not lasting. It found evidence of water pretty much straight away, which was worth the budget all on its own.
I am sorry but the attitude of half of this thread is simply disgusting; from 'haha' to you better provide food before creating space missions. I was just as skeptical about the budget and our capabilities (Yes, I am an Indian - if that wasn't obvious already) but I, even after having actually suffered from poor infrastructure and have seen failed launches as well as people suffering from hunger, support the cause wholeheartedly.
If you have a problem with how your government's aid money is being spent in India, please go forward and lobby for the aid to get cut off. How we spend our tax money is a decision that we should be allowed to make.
Honestly, I am surprised that HackerNews has the sentiment of pointing out expenditures on science to be extravagant and unnecessary by using social conditions as excuse, while there is so much more we could save by changing our military, social or economic standpoints. US's military budget was $663.84B in 2010 [1] while United Nations budget was just around $5.2B during the same time [2] and it's not that United States is all free from hunger or food insecurities [3]. So please, whichever country that you belong to will have issues just like us. We probably have a lot more of those than you do, but we have the right to decide which of those do we want to tackle now at the expense of being behind in our long term goals. And I request you to keep your preferences to yourself and stop forcing your morality/ethics/logic onto us in such private matters.
If you have a problem with how your government's aid money is being spent in India, please go forward and lobby for the aid to get cut off. How we spend our tax money is a decision that we should be allowed to make.
Honestly, I am surprised that HackerNews has the sentiment of pointing out expenditures on science to be extravagant and unnecessary by using social conditions as excuse, while there is so much more we could save by changing our military, social or economic standpoints. US's military budget was $663.84B in 2010 [1] while United Nations budget was just around $5.2B during the same time [2] and it's not that United States is all free from hunger or food insecurities [3]. So please, whichever country that you belong to will have issues just like us. We probably have a lot more of those than you do, but we have the right to decide which of those do we want to tackle now at the expense of being behind in our long term goals. And I request you to keep your preferences to yourself and stop forcing your morality/ethics/logic onto us in such private matters.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States
[2] http://www.un.org/en/hq/dm/pdfs/oppba/Regular%20Budget.pdf
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger#In_the_United_StatesYou have the right to determine how you spend your own money. Whilst you are still taking handouts from other nations, then it is not a private matter.
The US does spend a lot on their military, and they may have some very deprived areas where people have less food than required (but I highly doubt anyone in the US starves to death).
Likewise, though, the US doesn't have young girls whose job it it to collect other peoples faeces with their bare hands [1]. I would say a country that has that doesn't need a Mars mission.
[1] http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o0vpXaPf_9AC&pg=PT62&...
The US does spend a lot on their military, and they may have some very deprived areas where people have less food than required (but I highly doubt anyone in the US starves to death).
Likewise, though, the US doesn't have young girls whose job it it to collect other peoples faeces with their bare hands [1]. I would say a country that has that doesn't need a Mars mission.
[1] http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o0vpXaPf_9AC&pg=PT62&...
As I walked out of the Van Ness MUNI station in San Francisco last night, I walked by at least 20 homeless people, just lying on the street. A couple on wheelchairs, the rest just lounging around. A few of them reeked of urine and feces.
And this is in, arguably, one of the richest cities in America.
So while this situation (homelessness, mental patients going without care, hunger), how dare the USA spend so much money on a Mars mission? On the military? Heck, why does the City of SF spend so much money on America's Cup, Outsidelands, etc. when thousands of people are homeless and on the streets? Yes, you may say that the City spends money on them too; but then why are they still on the streets?
Do you see my point? If you were to apply the same logic (or lack thereof) that you're applying to India to any other country (even the US), you will get the same answer: don't spend money on anything.
BTW: India is not "taking handouts" from other nations[1]. India is actually _giving_ handouts to others; e.g., they've given billions in aid to Afghanistan to aid in its re-construction.
[1] http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm couple of 100M doesn't qualify as a "handout" for a country the size of India. That's like me donating $5 to Obama's campaign and then expecting him to have dinner with me. WikiPedia link of top 25 countries; India does not feature in them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid
And this is in, arguably, one of the richest cities in America.
So while this situation (homelessness, mental patients going without care, hunger), how dare the USA spend so much money on a Mars mission? On the military? Heck, why does the City of SF spend so much money on America's Cup, Outsidelands, etc. when thousands of people are homeless and on the streets? Yes, you may say that the City spends money on them too; but then why are they still on the streets?
Do you see my point? If you were to apply the same logic (or lack thereof) that you're applying to India to any other country (even the US), you will get the same answer: don't spend money on anything.
BTW: India is not "taking handouts" from other nations[1]. India is actually _giving_ handouts to others; e.g., they've given billions in aid to Afghanistan to aid in its re-construction.
[1] http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm couple of 100M doesn't qualify as a "handout" for a country the size of India. That's like me donating $5 to Obama's campaign and then expecting him to have dinner with me. WikiPedia link of top 25 countries; India does not feature in them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid
> As I walked out of the Van Ness MUNI station in San Francisco last night, I walked by at least 20 homeless people, just lying on the street. A couple on wheelchairs, the rest just lounging around. A few of them reeked of urine and feces.
> And this is in, arguably, one of the richest cities in America.
You're conveniently ignoring several points. First of all, San Francisco draws homeless from all over the nation because it (a) has good weather year round and (b) is quite liberal and will tolerate and help the homeless. Unlike India, in much of the US, being homeless during the winter means that you will quite literally freeze to death. So the homeless tend to congregate in places where the weather is favorable for outdoor living year round. The fact that San Francisco is rich is a result of Silicon Valley, which developed where it has because of the proximity of the Stanford campus. So the two issues are not exactly connected.
More importantly, attempts to help the homeless on the streets of SF have been made over and over (and are ongoing). Many of these people refuse to leave the streets. Some of them even enjoy it. Many others suffer from mental disorders, but we can't force them to live in asylums (which was the case until the 1980s) - that would be inhumane, or so the argument goes.
As for India, its level of poverty is so staggering that any comparison to America or another first world nation is entirely pointless. Let's see what UNICEF has to say about child malnutrition, for example[0]:
> Malnutrition is more common in India than in Sub-Saharan Africa. One in every three malnourished children in the world lives in India.
So India has worse child malnutrition than even Africa. How you can even begin to compare this to some bums on the street in SF is entirely beyond me.
0: http://www.unicef.org/india/children_2356.htm
> And this is in, arguably, one of the richest cities in America.
You're conveniently ignoring several points. First of all, San Francisco draws homeless from all over the nation because it (a) has good weather year round and (b) is quite liberal and will tolerate and help the homeless. Unlike India, in much of the US, being homeless during the winter means that you will quite literally freeze to death. So the homeless tend to congregate in places where the weather is favorable for outdoor living year round. The fact that San Francisco is rich is a result of Silicon Valley, which developed where it has because of the proximity of the Stanford campus. So the two issues are not exactly connected.
More importantly, attempts to help the homeless on the streets of SF have been made over and over (and are ongoing). Many of these people refuse to leave the streets. Some of them even enjoy it. Many others suffer from mental disorders, but we can't force them to live in asylums (which was the case until the 1980s) - that would be inhumane, or so the argument goes.
As for India, its level of poverty is so staggering that any comparison to America or another first world nation is entirely pointless. Let's see what UNICEF has to say about child malnutrition, for example[0]:
> Malnutrition is more common in India than in Sub-Saharan Africa. One in every three malnourished children in the world lives in India.
So India has worse child malnutrition than even Africa. How you can even begin to compare this to some bums on the street in SF is entirely beyond me.
0: http://www.unicef.org/india/children_2356.htm
My point was: the OP took one negative fact ("young girls carry feces") and proceeded to paint the whole country of 1.2Billion with that. That game can be played by pointing out the homeless in SF too. See how silly it looks?
The OP was wrong in using manual scavenging as an example of a lack of economic progress, when it is actually an example of a lack of social progress, as I mentioned in a reply to him[0].
However, I don't believe that the homeless problem in SF can be compared to the manual scavenging problem either, because of the difference in terms of degree of severity. One is the result of millenia of systematic oppression, while the other is the result of people refusing to get help for themselves even when it is offered for free. Caste-based discrimination is a much bigger problem than homelessness is in India. If you don't believe me, you should watch the video linked in my other comment[0] - caste-based discrimination is much more widespread than most upper class Indians know or are willing to admit.
However, none of that changes the fact that economic progress is also sorely needed in India. The sort of progress that lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in China and educated them hasn't even begun to start in India.
The reason why it appears like India is doing so well is because if only 5% of the Indian population is well-educated and contributes significantly to the global economy, that's 60 million people - the size of a large European nation. So when (by my estimates) ~10% of the Indian population does so (as it has over the last 10-20 years), it creates huge ripple effects in the global economy. And Westerners especially notice when it occurs in service-based industries that they have direct contact with.
But that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of millions of Indians are impoverished and suffering from conditions worse than those in sub-Saharan Africa. When it comes to social development, the only parts of the world behind India are those that have been or continue to be torn apart by war. It's particularly damning when you consider that India's independence was achieved with relatively little bloodshed and that it hasn't had any military coups or dictatorships since independence. Compare this to the likes of countries like Germany, Japan, and South Korea, which rose from the ashes following WW2 and the Korean War to become first world nations. China suffered from enormous devastaion during the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward, and yet it has made huge strides over the last 20 years and continues to do so unabatedly with each passing year.
0: http://hackerne.ws/item?id=4386845
However, I don't believe that the homeless problem in SF can be compared to the manual scavenging problem either, because of the difference in terms of degree of severity. One is the result of millenia of systematic oppression, while the other is the result of people refusing to get help for themselves even when it is offered for free. Caste-based discrimination is a much bigger problem than homelessness is in India. If you don't believe me, you should watch the video linked in my other comment[0] - caste-based discrimination is much more widespread than most upper class Indians know or are willing to admit.
However, none of that changes the fact that economic progress is also sorely needed in India. The sort of progress that lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in China and educated them hasn't even begun to start in India.
The reason why it appears like India is doing so well is because if only 5% of the Indian population is well-educated and contributes significantly to the global economy, that's 60 million people - the size of a large European nation. So when (by my estimates) ~10% of the Indian population does so (as it has over the last 10-20 years), it creates huge ripple effects in the global economy. And Westerners especially notice when it occurs in service-based industries that they have direct contact with.
But that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of millions of Indians are impoverished and suffering from conditions worse than those in sub-Saharan Africa. When it comes to social development, the only parts of the world behind India are those that have been or continue to be torn apart by war. It's particularly damning when you consider that India's independence was achieved with relatively little bloodshed and that it hasn't had any military coups or dictatorships since independence. Compare this to the likes of countries like Germany, Japan, and South Korea, which rose from the ashes following WW2 and the Korean War to become first world nations. China suffered from enormous devastaion during the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward, and yet it has made huge strides over the last 20 years and continues to do so unabatedly with each passing year.
0: http://hackerne.ws/item?id=4386845
"One is the result of millenia of systematic oppression, while the other is the result of people refusing to get help for themselves even when it is offered for free. "
Have you wondered why so many of the homeless are people of color?
I used to live in upstate New York. By chance I happened to venture into a local reservation. I was shocked to see the conditions they were living in; especially given the fact that the area gets pretty darn cold in the winter.
Both of these groups (blacks, as well as native Americans) have been the victims of discrimination for centuries.
But people don't waive this fact all over HN any time the topic of NASA comes up.
Have you wondered why so many of the homeless are people of color?
I used to live in upstate New York. By chance I happened to venture into a local reservation. I was shocked to see the conditions they were living in; especially given the fact that the area gets pretty darn cold in the winter.
Both of these groups (blacks, as well as native Americans) have been the victims of discrimination for centuries.
But people don't waive this fact all over HN any time the topic of NASA comes up.
I don't deny that blacks and Native Americans have been treated poorly, and that they still face discrimination. However, that doesn't change the fact that those people you see on the street are there because they refuse the help they are given.
San Francisco is one of the most liberal cities in the country. There are dozens of upper middle class yuppies pleading with the homeless to accept their help.
> By chance I happened to venture into a local reservation. I was shocked to see the conditions they were living in; especially given the fact that the area gets pretty darn cold in the winter.
Native American reservations are, by their own choice, given a high level of autonomy by the US government. Once again, these people have made a conscious decision to reject help given them. Every single one of these people has chosen to live on a reservation when they could benefit from everything that modern America has to offer. Now, I can see that on a macro level, what the immigrants did to the Native Americans must seem horribly unjust, and therefore their descendants don't exactly want to accept the US government's help. However, on an individual level, these are individuals who have a clear path to bettering their lives that they simply refuse.
This is incomparable to the systematic suppression of millions upon millions of people that occurs to this very day, both on a macro and micro level, in India.
San Francisco is one of the most liberal cities in the country. There are dozens of upper middle class yuppies pleading with the homeless to accept their help.
> By chance I happened to venture into a local reservation. I was shocked to see the conditions they were living in; especially given the fact that the area gets pretty darn cold in the winter.
Native American reservations are, by their own choice, given a high level of autonomy by the US government. Once again, these people have made a conscious decision to reject help given them. Every single one of these people has chosen to live on a reservation when they could benefit from everything that modern America has to offer. Now, I can see that on a macro level, what the immigrants did to the Native Americans must seem horribly unjust, and therefore their descendants don't exactly want to accept the US government's help. However, on an individual level, these are individuals who have a clear path to bettering their lives that they simply refuse.
This is incomparable to the systematic suppression of millions upon millions of people that occurs to this very day, both on a macro and micro level, in India.
You are really clueless, aren't you? The problems that you see on reservations are the direct result of centuries of oppression. It may look different to you than the situation in India, most likely because you're probably white and male, and hence belong to the side that's been oppressing; but the situation is the same. Systemic denial of equal rights, denial of services, forced segregation from the rest of the society .... fundamentally, it's the same.
You may disagree, and I don't blame you; but having lived in India and the US for equal parts of my life, I see the same patterns.
You may disagree, and I don't blame you; but having lived in India and the US for equal parts of my life, I see the same patterns.
You're the one who seems to still be incapable of understanding what I'm saying. I don't deny that discrimination has occurred in US. I never have.
The difference is that significant steps have been taken to combat discrimination in America, whereas there is a general apathy towards that in India (and most of the developing world). Trying to equate the two is completely nonsensical, as is trying to equate the level of poverty in America, even on a reservation, with that in India.
> having lived in India and the US for equal parts of my life, I see the same patterns.
As an Indian who has managed to make it to America, I don't think you're in any place to comment on what life is like for poor Indians, particularly those facing endemic caste-based discrimination. Their experiences are completely foreign to you, just as I wouldn't claim that I understand what African Americans or Native Americans go through.
The difference is that significant steps have been taken to combat discrimination in America, whereas there is a general apathy towards that in India (and most of the developing world). Trying to equate the two is completely nonsensical, as is trying to equate the level of poverty in America, even on a reservation, with that in India.
> having lived in India and the US for equal parts of my life, I see the same patterns.
As an Indian who has managed to make it to America, I don't think you're in any place to comment on what life is like for poor Indians, particularly those facing endemic caste-based discrimination. Their experiences are completely foreign to you, just as I wouldn't claim that I understand what African Americans or Native Americans go through.
There is a very big difference between the homeless in San Francisco and a starving kid in India.
> the US doesn't have young girls whose job it it to collect other peoples faeces with their bare hands [1]. I would say a country that has that doesn't need a Mars mission.
This is primarily not an economic issue, it's a cultural one, a product of the millenia-old caste system. Watch this video[0] linked on GigaOM a few days ago[1], it explains the issue quite well (English hardsubs kick in at the 2 minute mark). Correcting it will take a lot more than money.
0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OUoXsryE3c
1: http://gigaom.com/cloud/how-indias-favorite-tv-show-uses-dat...
This is primarily not an economic issue, it's a cultural one, a product of the millenia-old caste system. Watch this video[0] linked on GigaOM a few days ago[1], it explains the issue quite well (English hardsubs kick in at the 2 minute mark). Correcting it will take a lot more than money.
0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OUoXsryE3c
1: http://gigaom.com/cloud/how-indias-favorite-tv-show-uses-dat...
Of course the entire country of a billions makes all their women folk do such acts, don't we? You are right. How do we even dare!
Of course you don't. I realise India is a country of great contrast, with a mix of modern cities and less developed rural areas.
I also think (and hope) that India becomes a greater power than China.
But having a Mars mission whilst taking state aid is like spending your unemployment benefit on an iPad whilst your children go hungry.
I also think (and hope) that India becomes a greater power than China.
But having a Mars mission whilst taking state aid is like spending your unemployment benefit on an iPad whilst your children go hungry.
You keep bringing up "whilst taking state aid", despite the fact that India does NOT take much of state aid from the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid
I'm British.
It's still peanuts: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2096628/British-fore...
You should probably not consider it aid then. Any money paid by the UK to India is surely more a sort of very long overdue rent.
Or like bailing out the Greeks and the Irish when parts of your own country are on the verge of destitution.
Perhaps this explains the recent nazi unrest in the East German state of Brandenburg.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/masked-neo-nazi-immort...
Perhaps this explains the recent nazi unrest in the East German state of Brandenburg.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/masked-neo-nazi-immort...
Don't get me started on the EU.... :-)
In a country of 1.2 billion, there will many, many people who are talented way above average.
Someone is a natural theoretical physicist. Others are mathematicians, rocket scientists, or maybe just great electronics and computer engineers. Or great artists.
While it is criminal that many people are suffering like you describe, it is also a (smaller)crime that the talented folks above are denied an outlet. What should they do? Why should they suffer just because the country as a whole has failed to solve poverty and caste issues for centuries?
It is of no use to anyone that these people sit around twiddling their thumbs. Not all of them can leave the country.
The relatively minor amount allocated for Indias space program is well spent.
Someone is a natural theoretical physicist. Others are mathematicians, rocket scientists, or maybe just great electronics and computer engineers. Or great artists.
While it is criminal that many people are suffering like you describe, it is also a (smaller)crime that the talented folks above are denied an outlet. What should they do? Why should they suffer just because the country as a whole has failed to solve poverty and caste issues for centuries?
It is of no use to anyone that these people sit around twiddling their thumbs. Not all of them can leave the country.
The relatively minor amount allocated for Indias space program is well spent.
Different countries, different priorities (perhaps ?)
Different things - equally noxious, depending on who you ask - get swept under the rug in different countries.
A lynching offense in one is not so in another.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333420/Paedophile-r...
Different things - equally noxious, depending on who you ask - get swept under the rug in different countries.
A lynching offense in one is not so in another.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333420/Paedophile-r...
Never ever feed the trolls. - Old Internet saying.
(This argument always always comes up and goes nowhere, and is a well known time sink. People who keep bringing it up in every other thread are trolls. Lots of people with nothing to do but hate and or give unasked-for advice jump on these known timesinks if you give them your attention. Not worth responding to them. Respond to people who have something useful to say.
Meanwhile India (like every nation on Earth)does what it does, depending on local perception of policy needs and all the blather on Teh Internetz by people who have ideas on what she "should" be doing is irrelevant. Don't lose your temper, because it just ends up making trolls happy and derailing useful discussion)
(This argument always always comes up and goes nowhere, and is a well known time sink. People who keep bringing it up in every other thread are trolls. Lots of people with nothing to do but hate and or give unasked-for advice jump on these known timesinks if you give them your attention. Not worth responding to them. Respond to people who have something useful to say.
Meanwhile India (like every nation on Earth)does what it does, depending on local perception of policy needs and all the blather on Teh Internetz by people who have ideas on what she "should" be doing is irrelevant. Don't lose your temper, because it just ends up making trolls happy and derailing useful discussion)
As an Indian I think you and your countrymen (used in the gender-neutral sense) do have the right to criticize/guide your country's spending. And with respect to the US's military budget, you have to think of it as our form of welfare. Most of that budget goes to overpaid company executives, managers and maybe even engineers. Our economy would be in tatters without that spending (or maybe we're in tatters now but would be naked otherwise).
I'd love to see more of our budget employ people doing useful things (directly employ I mean) ... and space science seems like a good long-term investment. So I'll cheer for India's success and lament its problems along with you, but I haven't a right to dictate its policy.
I'd love to see more of our budget employ people doing useful things (directly employ I mean) ... and space science seems like a good long-term investment. So I'll cheer for India's success and lament its problems along with you, but I haven't a right to dictate its policy.
"$82 million" mission? That budget doesn't even cover the fuel cost for a rover. Production of Pu-238 for the rover has been estimated at over $90 million, this does not include planning and starting costs.
Add to that the fuel for the launch vehicle; and fuel for the the cruise stage.
I can't trust this article.
Add to that the fuel for the launch vehicle; and fuel for the the cruise stage.
I can't trust this article.
Um, why do you think they're trying to make a rover like Curiosity when the article explicitly said that they were making an orbiter? A probe that never lands can just use solar cells since it doesn't have to worry about the atmosphere, and it doesn't have to worry about the rather difficult task of landing on Mar's surface or moving around there.
Putting a satellite in orbit around another planet is still a non-trivial exercise, but while $90 million is probably a low-ball figure it's not a totally unreasonable one.
Putting a satellite in orbit around another planet is still a non-trivial exercise, but while $90 million is probably a low-ball figure it's not a totally unreasonable one.
That does seem ambitiously cheap, but it's at least not orders of magnitude off. NASA currently has a call where they're taking bids for a low-cost interplanetary mission, with bids capped at $425m plus launch costs: http://www.space.com/11593-nasa-planetary-missions-shortlist...
If you take into account cheaper labor, I could imagine India coming in considerably lower than that, though I'm not sure how much lower. They could probably also save some money by using existing, already-proven technology, e.g. by purchasing some ex-Soviet designs and equipment rather than developing all custom hardware+software. That said, I would be very surprised if this launches on-budget and on-schedule.
If you take into account cheaper labor, I could imagine India coming in considerably lower than that, though I'm not sure how much lower. They could probably also save some money by using existing, already-proven technology, e.g. by purchasing some ex-Soviet designs and equipment rather than developing all custom hardware+software. That said, I would be very surprised if this launches on-budget and on-schedule.
> Add to that the fuel for the launch vehicle; and fuel for the the cruise stage.
What you've just said is the equivalent of someone witnessing a Ferrari crash into a tree and destroy itself, and saying 'Ouch, that's an expensive tank of fuel he's just wasted'.
In fact the costs of fuel for these things are trivially small, basically inconsequential, compared to the cost of the things that are using the fuel - the rocket and the cruise stage. You don't get them back, they're single use, expended as part of the mission, and they're expensive.
What you've just said is the equivalent of someone witnessing a Ferrari crash into a tree and destroy itself, and saying 'Ouch, that's an expensive tank of fuel he's just wasted'.
In fact the costs of fuel for these things are trivially small, basically inconsequential, compared to the cost of the things that are using the fuel - the rocket and the cruise stage. You don't get them back, they're single use, expended as part of the mission, and they're expensive.
Really? I'd have thought that about the cheapest thing about a launch would be the fuel.
The price per kg of LOX, LH2 etc. all seem fairly low to me, a quick search gives:
http://www.astronautix.com/props/loxlh2.htm
The price per kg of LOX, LH2 etc. all seem fairly low to me, a quick search gives:
http://www.astronautix.com/props/loxlh2.htm
I am surprised that it costs lesser than India's unmanned moon mission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1).
If ISRO can pull it off for under $100 million, that would be quite an achievement. Given the recent commercial interests in space, there might even be an opportunity to become financially independent by offering services for others.
If ISRO can pull it off for under $100 million, that would be quite an achievement. Given the recent commercial interests in space, there might even be an opportunity to become financially independent by offering services for others.
Why? It's only a few percent larger delta-V:
http://www.lr.tudelft.nl/index.php?id=29335&L=1
It's also much smaller -- this article puts the weight of the Mars orbiter at 500 kg total, vs. 1,380 for Chandrayaan-1.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/aug/09/india-s...
http://www.lr.tudelft.nl/index.php?id=29335&L=1
It's also much smaller -- this article puts the weight of the Mars orbiter at 500 kg total, vs. 1,380 for Chandrayaan-1.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/aug/09/india-s...
Indian organisations are notorious in having extremely low estimates that later blow up to 4-5 times. So while I have more trust in ISRO (Indian Space Research Organization), their numbers might be off by a factor.
The same is true for many other space missions, and quite frankly doesn't matter.
For example, check the projections on the James Webb space telescope and see for yourself how the costs doubled and tripled. IMO we shouldn't look at it in terms of those costs; even if double and tripled they are not that high. Look at their effect on the larger picture.
For example, check the projections on the James Webb space telescope and see for yourself how the costs doubled and tripled. IMO we shouldn't look at it in terms of those costs; even if double and tripled they are not that high. Look at their effect on the larger picture.
Isn't that a rule rather than the exception in any massive project?
"The project was scheduled to be completed in 1998 at an estimated cost of $2.8 billion (in 1982 dollars, US$6.0 billion adjusted for inflation as of 2006).The project was not completed, however, until December 2007, at a cost of over $14.6 billion ($8.08 billion in 1982 dollars) as of 2006. The Boston Globe estimated that the project will ultimately cost $22 billion, including interest, and that it will not be paid off until 2038."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig
"The project was scheduled to be completed in 1998 at an estimated cost of $2.8 billion (in 1982 dollars, US$6.0 billion adjusted for inflation as of 2006).The project was not completed, however, until December 2007, at a cost of over $14.6 billion ($8.08 billion in 1982 dollars) as of 2006. The Boston Globe estimated that the project will ultimately cost $22 billion, including interest, and that it will not be paid off until 2038."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig
The Atlas V which launched Curiosity weighs ~300 tons, which bounds its fuel cost at ~$300,000 (at $1/kg).
Curiosity: Where is the $1/kg cost from?
RP-1 is kerosene, so by analogy with other petroleum fuels.
I couldn't find a price, W tells me:
"All told, the final product is more expensive than straight-run kerosene. On paper, any petroleum can produce some RP-1 with enough processing. In practice, the fuel is sourced from a small number of oil fields with high-quality base stock. This, coupled with small demand in a niche market compared to other petroleum users, drives the price."
India won't launch any Pu-238 missions. America and former USSR countries are the countries with any, and America buys it up from anyone in those places. The planet is probably going to run out unless we start manufacturing more.
And for an orbiter around Mars (like the article said), solar is probably the better choice anyway. I love nuclear power and nuclear propulsion, but it's often overkill. If we knew as much as we did now about Spirit and Opportunity we might have used solar for the MSL mission.
And for an orbiter around Mars (like the article said), solar is probably the better choice anyway. I love nuclear power and nuclear propulsion, but it's often overkill. If we knew as much as we did now about Spirit and Opportunity we might have used solar for the MSL mission.
There will not probably be a rover. It is going to be an orbiter mission with a small payload which is meant to crash into the surface. PSLV - the rocket meant to get the satelite into orbit is a war horse which was used for previous moon mission too. And yes, it is pretty cheap to build and operate.
Who said anything about them using plutonium?
Anyone who thinks India doesn't need a Mars mission, please raise your hands up.
Done, good. Now you've given your opinion. Please sit down and shut the F up.
Whatever I write would pail in comparison to a thread posted a few days earlier:
Link: http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a...
HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563
Done, good. Now you've given your opinion. Please sit down and shut the F up.
Whatever I write would pail in comparison to a thread posted a few days earlier:
Link: http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a...
HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563
I'm pretty shocked that HN wouldn't be in favor of any and all efforts to advance the space race. Everyone (deservedly) showers praise on Elon Musk whenever SpaceX has a successful launch, but when India wants to push the envelope the response is totally opposite.
Some awesome stuff has come from reaching for big goals with a constrained set of resources in the past. I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of jugaad innovations the Indians can bring to the table in the aerospace sector.
Some awesome stuff has come from reaching for big goals with a constrained set of resources in the past. I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of jugaad innovations the Indians can bring to the table in the aerospace sector.
India has achieved quite a bit with its space exploration. It is the same space programme that has provided Indians with satellites that are applied to agriculture. The IRS-P6 Resourcesat has been deployed for studying cropping patterns [1]. I am sure other satellites have been used for various other agricultural applications. Frankly this "feed the poor first" meme of the western media [and some disillusioned folks] is quite irritating. The meme only goes to show that the western media does not really appreciate achievement from a "developing country".
When India was on its way to launch its first rocket [way back when], some parts of the rocket were carried by the ISRO scientists pillion riding on a bicycle. Time magazine, in true western style, ridiculed that inicident. (Unfortunately I am not able to find references for this. So recounting from memory here.) Now after the moon shot with Chandrayaan-1, we know who had the last laugh.
However, on this particular occasion, I think this announcement is a populist one. The Central Government has nothing to show in terms of achievement. The government's image is severely tattered, what with all the corruption charges, policy paralysis, lack of any real economic progress, etc. Nothing like whipping up some nationalism to distract the people from noticing the lack of government performance.
Without the political context, I am guessing this Mars mission might provide scientists with 1) Insights on developing long range space travel 2) Insights into instrumentation technology 3) Robotics related tech
And India has had collaborative associations with several space agencies from different countries. It is only adding to the already existing space related body of knowledge.
All the disillusioned folks who think they are entitled to dictate policy decisions on account of their country giving "handouts" to India, feel free to take a hike.
[1] http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2025000
When India was on its way to launch its first rocket [way back when], some parts of the rocket were carried by the ISRO scientists pillion riding on a bicycle. Time magazine, in true western style, ridiculed that inicident. (Unfortunately I am not able to find references for this. So recounting from memory here.) Now after the moon shot with Chandrayaan-1, we know who had the last laugh.
However, on this particular occasion, I think this announcement is a populist one. The Central Government has nothing to show in terms of achievement. The government's image is severely tattered, what with all the corruption charges, policy paralysis, lack of any real economic progress, etc. Nothing like whipping up some nationalism to distract the people from noticing the lack of government performance.
Without the political context, I am guessing this Mars mission might provide scientists with 1) Insights on developing long range space travel 2) Insights into instrumentation technology 3) Robotics related tech
And India has had collaborative associations with several space agencies from different countries. It is only adding to the already existing space related body of knowledge.
All the disillusioned folks who think they are entitled to dictate policy decisions on account of their country giving "handouts" to India, feel free to take a hike.
[1] http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2025000
If 80 million sounds too less for this mission, let us assume it balloons to 500 million.
Even then look at the benefits it would bring. Make talented engineers/scientists stay in India and not migrate to places where 'more interesting' stuff is done. Check.
Inspire a whole generation of people to take up science and engineering and to dream of thinking big, and actually have the confidence of knowing their dreams can come true. Check.
Assorted scientific/industrial/capacity creation benefits. Check.
All this at the miserly sum of 0.025 percent of your GDP. I think it is a very wise investment.
For those wondering why India doesn't first feed its citizens, here is a relevant post: http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a...
I don't buy it.
India is struggling with implementing solutions to issues that appear to be more-or-less solved for other countries; such as a working road network, public transport in most cities, picking up and distributing food harvests and a 24-hour supply of electricity. If a mission to Mars might provide fundamental insights into solving such issues, other countries seem not to have needed them.
Added later: I don't believe this mission to Mars has nothing to do with good old South Asian jingoism, and outdoing the geographical neighbour I shall not name.
India is struggling with implementing solutions to issues that appear to be more-or-less solved for other countries; such as a working road network, public transport in most cities, picking up and distributing food harvests and a 24-hour supply of electricity. If a mission to Mars might provide fundamental insights into solving such issues, other countries seem not to have needed them.
Added later: I don't believe this mission to Mars has nothing to do with good old South Asian jingoism, and outdoing the geographical neighbour I shall not name.
So we should drop everything and focus on that alone?
We are also struggling with a massive brain drain. Such missions are going to inspire an entire generation and maybe create a sense of satisfaction and achievement. I, for one, do not doubt the importance of those in nation building.
Extrapolating from the words of Dr N D Tyson, the total spending on such space missions is not as high as we may think it is. India's GDP is good enough to not look at a space mission with a jaundiced eye.
We are also struggling with a massive brain drain. Such missions are going to inspire an entire generation and maybe create a sense of satisfaction and achievement. I, for one, do not doubt the importance of those in nation building.
Extrapolating from the words of Dr N D Tyson, the total spending on such space missions is not as high as we may think it is. India's GDP is good enough to not look at a space mission with a jaundiced eye.
> drop everything and focus on that alone?
Strawman. I'm not suggesting dropping everything. I'm only opining that a mission to Mars should be of lower priority than fulfilling basic infrastructure needs, which may be a source of satisfaction to a larger chunk of the population than the much smaller elite that can actually understand what a mission to Mars is all about.
Strawman. I'm not suggesting dropping everything. I'm only opining that a mission to Mars should be of lower priority than fulfilling basic infrastructure needs, which may be a source of satisfaction to a larger chunk of the population than the much smaller elite that can actually understand what a mission to Mars is all about.
Maybe. But consider the cost here is comparable to building anything up to at most a few tens of miles of decent quality highway. It's a tiny investment to start with.
And this money does not magically dissipate - a lot of it effectively functions as subsidies to create high-tech jobs in the country, and a decent chunk of it will find its way back into government coffers as tax.
Demonstrating the ability to send probes to Mars could also do wonders for Indian companies that wants to compete for international satellite launch business, for example.
It could be a waste, but it could also very well turn out to have a good enough ROI to increase the amount of cash available for basic infrastructure needs.
And this money does not magically dissipate - a lot of it effectively functions as subsidies to create high-tech jobs in the country, and a decent chunk of it will find its way back into government coffers as tax.
Demonstrating the ability to send probes to Mars could also do wonders for Indian companies that wants to compete for international satellite launch business, for example.
It could be a waste, but it could also very well turn out to have a good enough ROI to increase the amount of cash available for basic infrastructure needs.
Good point. I don't understand the anti space exploration crowd's argument of putting poverty before space. It's not like they are bundling 80 million dollars into a hollow spaceship and dumping it off on mars.
Fair enough. You have a valid point.
Do consider then, that the projected cost of this space mission IS far lesser than what India spends on lot of the basic infrastructural needs that you point out are missing. They are missing, yes, but if you only look at present day snapshot it won't give you the entire story. However marginal it might seem, especially to a first-world citizen (I mean no sarcasm when I say this) education is getting better every year, employment is on an average getting better. Agricultural outputs are worrying but we have had massive monsoon shortages of late.
Almost everywhere the situation is made worse by corruption at every level. But we can't stop trying to fix things. As someone else points out on this thread, in the grand scheme of things this is an insignificant cost. FWIW some really intelligent high-school students might just decide their future based on news of such missions.
Do consider then, that the projected cost of this space mission IS far lesser than what India spends on lot of the basic infrastructural needs that you point out are missing. They are missing, yes, but if you only look at present day snapshot it won't give you the entire story. However marginal it might seem, especially to a first-world citizen (I mean no sarcasm when I say this) education is getting better every year, employment is on an average getting better. Agricultural outputs are worrying but we have had massive monsoon shortages of late.
Almost everywhere the situation is made worse by corruption at every level. But we can't stop trying to fix things. As someone else points out on this thread, in the grand scheme of things this is an insignificant cost. FWIW some really intelligent high-school students might just decide their future based on news of such missions.
What's key to a nation's development is education. Emabarking on these kinds of enterprises provides just that: it developes the knowledge, expertise and capabilities of both individuals and institutions in fields like computing, electronics, mechanical engineerig not to mention softer skills like project management, international relations and so on. Additionally these kinds of endeavours promote national pride and inspire schoolchildren to study science.
And finally, snarky for sure (assuming you're american), but people in glass houses etc. America has a large population of poor yet still finds room to spend 500bn a year on defense (whilst only a paulty few cents for NASA)
And finally, snarky for sure (assuming you're american), but people in glass houses etc. America has a large population of poor yet still finds room to spend 500bn a year on defense (whilst only a paulty few cents for NASA)
India does have a significantly larger population than most other countries.
There's also the cultural difference. India is steeped in culture and religion that dates back farther than pretty much any other developed (or even developing) country.
I'm not giving an opinion on whether this is good or bad, just pointing out that straightforward solutions in other countries may not necessarily apply here.
There's also the cultural difference. India is steeped in culture and religion that dates back farther than pretty much any other developed (or even developing) country.
I'm not giving an opinion on whether this is good or bad, just pointing out that straightforward solutions in other countries may not necessarily apply here.
The problems in governance are not because of lack of funds. There is a lot of pilferage, corruption and systemic faults. I agree Space Missions wont help in those but it will help in ways it is supposed to (Science and Technical research).
> India is struggling with implementing solutions to issues that appear to be more-or-less solved for other countries; such as a working road network, public transport in most cities, picking up and distributing food harvests and a 24-hour supply of electricity. If a mission to Mars might provide fundamental insights into solving such issues, other countries seem not to have needed them.
Right, because the other nations sending probes into space solved all of their other problems first...
I could come up with a million reasons why government money spent on space research is a bad idea, but the reasons you gave aren't on the list.
Right, because the other nations sending probes into space solved all of their other problems first...
I could come up with a million reasons why government money spent on space research is a bad idea, but the reasons you gave aren't on the list.
In the grand scheme of things, these are tiny expenditures ($82 mil). Consider also that India is a federal state, with significant power awarded to local states infrastructure-wise. Some places are nearly westernized, others still very much in the 19th century.
This strawman argument has was already old 40+ years ago, and doesn't age well like fine wine or cheese.
While India is one of the poorest countries on the planet, and spends less than 1% of GDP on science and technology, India also produces largest number of engineers and a large number of science graduates every year. The country has more than 3million employed in IT jobs (not callcenter/BPO). India's space program is quite developed and ISRO's track record is not too bad. And yes, India produces more than enough food to feed its populace and more. The issue is one of primtive distribution chains, bureaucratic apathy and corruption. Foreign aid do not address these issues and is very meagre compared to India's GDP and government spending power. India needs to reform from within and that is a cultural journey.
I'm so glad the UK government gives them millions of dollars in aid every year. FFS.
"Pranab Mukherjee and other Indian ministers tried to terminate Britain’s aid to their booming country last year - but relented after the British begged them to keep taking the money..."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844...
Yeah they could at least distribute that money to the super poor, instead of turning round and smugly saying how its peanuts and they don't need it. There are folk there who would kill for a peanut to line their bellies.....literally!
You are confusing the two issues. India is capable of feeding its poor. The bureaucracy are too damn apathetic and corrupt to bring that into effect.
But why should the ones who want to make a difference be subject to criticism that they don't deserve?
But why should the ones who want to make a difference be subject to criticism that they don't deserve?
So building a launch system capable of landing a rover on Mars is the answer then? Its hard to confuse the point im attempting to make. I will make it clear. They should concentrate on their own populating, Government and infrastructure before they even consider attempting something like this, because in the end, who is actually going to benefit from it?
A Government with these problems should be considered criminal when they cant actually provide their population with the basics.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/business/global/a-failed-...
A Government with these problems should be considered criminal when they cant actually provide their population with the basics.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/business/global/a-failed-...
I don't think there is any confusion in point you are making. The fact is the money that has been earmarked for this venture (even you account for any cost overruns) is a meager amount to what India already earmarks to spend (spends) on infrastructure, education, health etc. For example the budgetary allocation in current year for Rural
Infrastructure is ~ 13 billion USD, Education is ~ 6 billion USD [1].
The sad fact is that even though India spends large sums to address the social problems, due to endemic corruption the results are far less spectacular. Spending money on ventures like space exploration doesn't really come in the way of addressing the social problems we have.
1. http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2012-13/bh/bh1.pdf
The sad fact is that even though India spends large sums to address the social problems, due to endemic corruption the results are far less spectacular. Spending money on ventures like space exploration doesn't really come in the way of addressing the social problems we have.
1. http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2012-13/bh/bh1.pdf
My opinion on this general debate is neither here not there but I must call you up on your assertion that India is spending a lot on its population:
> For example the budgetary allocation in current year for Rural Infrastructure is ~ 13 billion USD, Education is ~ 6 billion USD [1].
That's really not a lot! The UK spends about 150 billion USD on education each year, which is about 2300USD per capita. Dividing 6bn by the population of india at 1.2bn, that's 5USD per capita.
That is to say, the UK spends 460x as much per person on education as India. And people would say the UK can't afford a Mars mission at the moment!
> For example the budgetary allocation in current year for Rural Infrastructure is ~ 13 billion USD, Education is ~ 6 billion USD [1].
That's really not a lot! The UK spends about 150 billion USD on education each year, which is about 2300USD per capita. Dividing 6bn by the population of india at 1.2bn, that's 5USD per capita.
That is to say, the UK spends 460x as much per person on education as India. And people would say the UK can't afford a Mars mission at the moment!
I can't argue with that number much, nor provide any real defense in India's favor, but do consider that the cost of living and labor in India is far far lesser than in the UK.
Returning to my earlier argument, this isn't about any sacrificial costs. There is enough budget for everything including infrastructure development and a space mission as far as the Indian budget is concerned. The problems at the grassroot are not due to lack of spending power but corruption and broken implementation practices.
Returning to my earlier argument, this isn't about any sacrificial costs. There is enough budget for everything including infrastructure development and a space mission as far as the Indian budget is concerned. The problems at the grassroot are not due to lack of spending power but corruption and broken implementation practices.
I didn't meant to say that India spends a lot on education, Infra etc. My point was compared to what is being spent on these initiatives the money being earmarked to Mars mission is not huge.
They should have followed English practice of sending poor or orphaned children to colonies, to help alleviate the shortage of labour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Children
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Children
Spread the dollar as in a welfare nation?
I think they could use less of that. They are just emerging now from decades of central planning and control which has stagnated growth.
As are the Russians.
If anything, they need a larger ampule of capitalism.
A larger amplitude in Capitalism does nothing for the many millions living in rural area where running water, roads and electricity are non existent and food is commonly scare. I'm afraid there are still huge areas in India ravaged with flooding and there is no government support. None. I saw a bit of it myself and its shocking. I think that can be solved initially with actual government intervention (handouts if you will). It wouldn't take a lot either. Capitalism doesn't build infrastructure where it doesn't exist.
It is not all Slumdog Millionaire you know. All countries have problems that they can't cope with. In the face of Katrina what happened for e.g. in the US was clear for the world to see.
Again, these are parallel lines of progress. Spending on a space mission does NOT affect other public expenditures in this country. Neither does resolving ALL public problems make us more or less morally qualified (I still don't understand the objection) to launch a rover to Mars.
Again, these are parallel lines of progress. Spending on a space mission does NOT affect other public expenditures in this country. Neither does resolving ALL public problems make us more or less morally qualified (I still don't understand the objection) to launch a rover to Mars.
I'm not blaming the Indian government, I'm blaming the UK one.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Perhaps you should look into solutions that could stunt the Croydonization, Shoreditchization and Finsburyization of the UK instead of turning cynical and bitter about the increasingly diminished role that the UK plays on the world stage.
The UK has showered herself with a surfeit of entitlements, post-war, that she no longer can pay for. Time to perhaps start making things that the world wants to pay for, besides bespoke umbrellas.
The UK has showered herself with a surfeit of entitlements, post-war, that she no longer can pay for. Time to perhaps start making things that the world wants to pay for, besides bespoke umbrellas.
I have no idea what Croydonisation, Shoreditchization etc mean.
And the umbrellas I buy are probably Chinese.
And the umbrellas I buy are probably Chinese.
haha
Yeah that was my initial reaction as well, I just don't see it happening at all. I mean, we have to be serious here, they are going to put a Rover or something on Mars for $80 Million?!.......Nah.
I'm not saying that's they wont EVER, but they have to join us on planet earth before they start dreaming of other planets.
I'm not saying that's they wont EVER, but they have to join us on planet earth before they start dreaming of other planets.
Yeah. How about providing electricity to villages and providing actual+reliable broadband connectivity to the country. People die of hunger and cold in India.
Well.
That never stopped them from turning nuclear - more than a decade ago - in the face of international sanctions.
I'm not saying they won't be able to do it or something like that. I'm just saying they just need to raise the standard of basic human living first and then start glorious missions like this. The problem with India is that it's a hollow vessel. They pretend to be glorious to the rest of the world but actually they can't even solve the most basic human needs. So much poverty, Homelessness, Electricity, Roads, Communication, Health Care, Education, Human Rights. Almost everything is fucked up in this country except "Bollywood".. (well the movies are actually more fucked up than anything else but at least bollywood is a financial success ;)
FWIW, I'm from India.. sort of.
FWIW, I'm from India.. sort of.
and still people are dying of hunger. Oh right, lets feed them some plutonium
As much as I like India and its space program, it is also true that these kind of grand pronouncements happen from time to time and are not taken very seriously here. And when the announced missions/projects do happen they are inevitably over budget and delayed.
E.g: cost of an unmanned lunar probe in 2008 - US $ 90 million (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1)
costs for a lunar lander/rover, proposed for 2016 (delayed from the original plan for 2014) - projected cost - US $ 80 million. Note this is the projected cost (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-2)
Thus, I'd be very very skeptical of a mars probe actually being launched in 2013 at the same amount of money as was spent on a lunar probe 4 years ago.
See how that $80 million keeps repeating? Must be the maximum budget you can sell to a technically illiterate politician. ;-)
That said, I am all for India trying to explore space, with whatever constraints. Eventually there will be a Mars probe and that is great.