The IPS LCD Revolution(codinghorror.com)
codinghorror.com
The IPS LCD Revolution
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/07/the-ips-lcd-revolution.html
17 comments
These articles have made me want to buy a new monitor at home, but the 7 year-old 24" Dell monitor that I have still works perfectly fine. It's more than bright enough and there are no defective pixels. The $800 or whatever it cost back then seems like a lot, but what other 7-year-old computer part does anyone still use today? (My mouse and HHKB are getting there...)
I upgraded to a 30" IPS(from a 24" IPS) and it's well worth it. It does take a little getting used to having that much screen that close but the adjustment period is on the order of a day or two.
I have a 30" at work. I don't really need the space. It isn't enough space to have four 100 column files open, and 24" is enough for three.
Multiple panels may be better for the way you work than one large panel. In general I don't think any programmer should have less than two monitors, ever. Ideally three (for the "center"), and if you're crazy, four.
I can work fine with a single 20" 1600x1200. It's not my dream setup but it's also not hindering me for my work (backend systems).
I'm used to multiple desktops (gnome 3, gnome before that), and multiple panels turn out to be useless to me. I just can't spread my attention across two monitors, whereas I switch desktops without thinking about it.
Task switching, replacing one set of content with another (literally) isn't generally free: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/09/the-multi-tasking-m...
I've been thinking of going the 19/30/19 route, but I've had a hard time finding an affordable mount that converts that scheme into something I can mount on a single monitor arm.
I'm signed up for a metalworking class in the near future, so maybe I can solve that problem myself :)
I'm signed up for a metalworking class in the near future, so maybe I can solve that problem myself :)
I use an 8 year old laptop. Quite capable for wasting time on HN and reddit. Oh, and pretty much every web app out there...
Out of curiosity, what's the model # and specs?
Thinkpad X31, Pentium M 1.4 GHz, 1 GB RAM, 12" XGA, hard drive upgraded to a Seagate ST980815A (http://bin.piorkowski.ca/hdtune/x31-seagate-5400.3.png)
Running Ubuntu 10.04 or something, used to run Windows 7 quite well too
Running Ubuntu 10.04 or something, used to run Windows 7 quite well too
I successfully used my X31 for the entire week at OSCON. With so many Mac Pros and T430s around, I got a lot of stares when I whipped out this 12" 4:3 piece of history.
People brought T430s to OSCON? The keyboard layout alone should be enough to disqualify the __30 series :(
What's wrong with the keyboard? It's different, but all the reviews I've read have grudgingly admitted that it's actually better (or at least just as good) as the old keyboard.
I'm having huge issues getting over the layout (no space between F key groups, home/end/pgup/pgdown block broken up). I haven't typed on one, admittedly.
IPS has been around for a long, long time. Pricing might be a reflection of many things. Bad or questionable panels are one potential example. Another might be an EOL panel or monitor (End Of Life). Translation: They are not made or supported any more. It can also be an old model.
I spent some time in the LCD OEM business. The simplest way I can put it is that the major LCD module providers defecate all over LCD monitor manufacturers. Their defecate takes the form or panels that sometimes are good and other times are bad. Sometimes the bad is obvious (remember the purple aluminum Apple Cinema Displays?). Sometimes it isn't (reliability issues, pixel issues, etc.
The panel makers also pull stuff like discontinuing panels seemingly overnight and changing specifications on you without notice. We saw a case where the manufacturer changed the logic power supply specification for a panel from 12V to 5V and didn't bother to tell anyone. They shipped us new panels. Monitors started to blow-up during testing. I mean, smoke coming out of them. It wasn't until we burned-up the equivalent of a small BMW (or two) of OEM LCD panels that we came to the realization that the manufacturer had caused this issue. All we got was a new data-sheet out of them.
It's a rough business to be in. Ugly as can be. The sheer size of the providers and sole-source nature of the products create a situation where, for the most part, these companies are above the law (don't ask me how I know this) and can fuck with you --the monitor manufacturer-- to no end. The only companies that don't get screwed with as much are the large players like the HP, Dell and Apple's of the industry.
IPS panels of very high resolution have been around for quite some time. Probably the most famous of these was the IBM-originated quad-HD 3840 x 2160 22 inch panel. Memory fails but I'll say that this panel goes back at least fifteen years. OEM cost started out around $20K and dropped to about $6K with time.
My concern with these 27 inch monitors would be about the unknowns. They could be just fine. But they could also not be OK in a million ways. Did they, for example, not make it to US and European shores because they did not pass safety tests? I don't know. No amount of money will compel me to, quite literally, play with fire. Do they have system-level premature failure modes such as questionable power supplies or the like? Don't know. Or how about panel-level issues, such as high failure rates or deterioration with time, temperature, etc.
Buy them if you must, but be very aware of what you are not buying. I, as an example, would not leave these things plugged in and unattended. I'd plug them all into a power strip and switch them off every time I leave the room for more than thirty minutes. While I am not saying that a fire is the unavoidable consequence of paying so little for them I am proposing that, sometimes, when thing are too good to be true there's a reason for that.
I spent some time in the LCD OEM business. The simplest way I can put it is that the major LCD module providers defecate all over LCD monitor manufacturers. Their defecate takes the form or panels that sometimes are good and other times are bad. Sometimes the bad is obvious (remember the purple aluminum Apple Cinema Displays?). Sometimes it isn't (reliability issues, pixel issues, etc.
The panel makers also pull stuff like discontinuing panels seemingly overnight and changing specifications on you without notice. We saw a case where the manufacturer changed the logic power supply specification for a panel from 12V to 5V and didn't bother to tell anyone. They shipped us new panels. Monitors started to blow-up during testing. I mean, smoke coming out of them. It wasn't until we burned-up the equivalent of a small BMW (or two) of OEM LCD panels that we came to the realization that the manufacturer had caused this issue. All we got was a new data-sheet out of them.
It's a rough business to be in. Ugly as can be. The sheer size of the providers and sole-source nature of the products create a situation where, for the most part, these companies are above the law (don't ask me how I know this) and can fuck with you --the monitor manufacturer-- to no end. The only companies that don't get screwed with as much are the large players like the HP, Dell and Apple's of the industry.
IPS panels of very high resolution have been around for quite some time. Probably the most famous of these was the IBM-originated quad-HD 3840 x 2160 22 inch panel. Memory fails but I'll say that this panel goes back at least fifteen years. OEM cost started out around $20K and dropped to about $6K with time.
My concern with these 27 inch monitors would be about the unknowns. They could be just fine. But they could also not be OK in a million ways. Did they, for example, not make it to US and European shores because they did not pass safety tests? I don't know. No amount of money will compel me to, quite literally, play with fire. Do they have system-level premature failure modes such as questionable power supplies or the like? Don't know. Or how about panel-level issues, such as high failure rates or deterioration with time, temperature, etc.
Buy them if you must, but be very aware of what you are not buying. I, as an example, would not leave these things plugged in and unattended. I'd plug them all into a power strip and switch them off every time I leave the room for more than thirty minutes. While I am not saying that a fire is the unavoidable consequence of paying so little for them I am proposing that, sometimes, when thing are too good to be true there's a reason for that.
> Probably the most famous of these was the IBM-originated quad-HD 3840 x 2160 22 inch panel. Memory fails but I'll say that this panel goes back at least fifteen years. OEM cost started out around $20K and dropped to about $6K with time.
3840x2400. I paid the equivalent of 1800 USD to buy, insure and import two IBM T221s in very good condition into South Africa about a year ago. They're pretty interesting displays and quite complex to get up and running optimally even on modern hardware.
My buddy imported 3 others along with mine. All 5 displays have a strange blue glow exactly in the centre of the screen when the screen is displaying pure black. It's completely unnoticeable except when you know what to look for. One of the displays needs a 60mm fan replaced -- each monitor comes with two such fans, and the display is rated at 150W power consumption. Seems to keep the room quite warm :)
If you want to run just one at 3840x2400 @ 48Hz you have to spend extra for another set of cables and have a graphics card with 4 DVI ports (good luck with that), or order some of the newer specialist cables that allow you to get away with a pair of dual-link DVI ports. Your graphics card needs to support a Single Large Surface mode to present the virtual panels (4x1920x1200 or 3x1280x2400) as a single high resolution panel (3840x2400).
Furthermore, if you're working with animations (video, games), whichever graphics card you get needs to support frame lock across the display ports otherwise you will experience tearing across the virtual panels. I believe NVIDIA only supports this in their higher end workstation graphics cards, or across multiple cards in SLI. For this reason I went with ATI's Eyefinity on a Radeon 6750/6770.
Working with photos from my DSLR at full resolution on these two monitors is well worth it though :) (That being said, Windows application support for high DPI is unfortunately a bit pathetic.)
3840x2400. I paid the equivalent of 1800 USD to buy, insure and import two IBM T221s in very good condition into South Africa about a year ago. They're pretty interesting displays and quite complex to get up and running optimally even on modern hardware.
My buddy imported 3 others along with mine. All 5 displays have a strange blue glow exactly in the centre of the screen when the screen is displaying pure black. It's completely unnoticeable except when you know what to look for. One of the displays needs a 60mm fan replaced -- each monitor comes with two such fans, and the display is rated at 150W power consumption. Seems to keep the room quite warm :)
If you want to run just one at 3840x2400 @ 48Hz you have to spend extra for another set of cables and have a graphics card with 4 DVI ports (good luck with that), or order some of the newer specialist cables that allow you to get away with a pair of dual-link DVI ports. Your graphics card needs to support a Single Large Surface mode to present the virtual panels (4x1920x1200 or 3x1280x2400) as a single high resolution panel (3840x2400).
Furthermore, if you're working with animations (video, games), whichever graphics card you get needs to support frame lock across the display ports otherwise you will experience tearing across the virtual panels. I believe NVIDIA only supports this in their higher end workstation graphics cards, or across multiple cards in SLI. For this reason I went with ATI's Eyefinity on a Radeon 6750/6770.
Working with photos from my DSLR at full resolution on these two monitors is well worth it though :) (That being said, Windows application support for high DPI is unfortunately a bit pathetic.)
Yes, you are right. I forgot. It was four 1920 x 1200 sections, hence 3840 x 2400. It required four DVI connections.
My feeling was always that it was just too small to really take advantage of the resolution. Later on AUO (or was it CMO, don't remember) came out with a 55in 3840 x 2400 panel that was really interesting. Expensive.
My feeling was always that it was just too small to really take advantage of the resolution. Later on AUO (or was it CMO, don't remember) came out with a 55in 3840 x 2400 panel that was really interesting. Expensive.
I've often dreamed of jury rigging four iPad 3 panels together. Think about it: a 19.4" diagonal 4096 x 3072 display, for the not-unreasonable price of $1,596. Drop the flash memory and A5X etc inside the iPad, and maybe you could get it down to $1000 or so (!).
No idea how technically feasible that is, but "tiling" could be one way to build a really high-res 20"+ display without requiring absurdly large, continuous error-free panels.
No idea how technically feasible that is, but "tiling" could be one way to build a really high-res 20"+ display without requiring absurdly large, continuous error-free panels.
Great idea, I might do this myself. It's actually much cheaper than that - I'd say around $400.
1) Get just the panels off ebay for $60-$80 /each.
2) You can get the spec sheets for the panels with enough Googling. It's a 6-bit (yeah, not 8-bit) LVDS signal, same as most modern laptops.
3) The toughest part. Create a DVI-> high-speed LVDS converter. There might be something already available, though. A quick google only shows a Toshiba DSI -> LVDS converter capped at 1080p.
Ballparking the LVDS clock rate: 2048 * 1536 * 6 * 60 Hz = 1.1 GHz
Interesting idea, though.
1) Get just the panels off ebay for $60-$80 /each.
2) You can get the spec sheets for the panels with enough Googling. It's a 6-bit (yeah, not 8-bit) LVDS signal, same as most modern laptops.
3) The toughest part. Create a DVI-> high-speed LVDS converter. There might be something already available, though. A quick google only shows a Toshiba DSI -> LVDS converter capped at 1080p.
Ballparking the LVDS clock rate: 2048 * 1536 * 6 * 60 Hz = 1.1 GHz
Interesting idea, though.
I would have hoped that displayport would replace LVDS, which would allow theese kind of hacks to be much easier and a lot cheaper.
Have laptops made the switch yet? (since they use displayport externally seems like it would be in their interest to use it internally as well) In that case the new MPB panel would perhaps be more suitable (and probably cheaper in the end - as well as better quality (I'm assuming/hoping it has 8 bits, but I don't know)).
And with displayport you could just hook it up to a decent gamer graphic card and be done. I'm not sure how feasible 2048x1536 is for a single-link DVI (at 60 Hz you would probably be in trouble), and graphic cards with 4 dual link DVI connectors isn't exactly mainstream so you would have to get (at least two) active displayport to DL DVI adapters, and they are not cheap either.
Have laptops made the switch yet? (since they use displayport externally seems like it would be in their interest to use it internally as well) In that case the new MPB panel would perhaps be more suitable (and probably cheaper in the end - as well as better quality (I'm assuming/hoping it has 8 bits, but I don't know)).
And with displayport you could just hook it up to a decent gamer graphic card and be done. I'm not sure how feasible 2048x1536 is for a single-link DVI (at 60 Hz you would probably be in trouble), and graphic cards with 4 dual link DVI connectors isn't exactly mainstream so you would have to get (at least two) active displayport to DL DVI adapters, and they are not cheap either.
It is a common misconception that DVI is limited to 1080p. The standard provides a budget of 165 million pixels per second, shared between active image, blanking and frame rate. It's easy math to figure out how far it can go based on a given frame rate and percentages of non-image time. I remember doing the math years ago and the results were well beyond 1080p. I don't know the Toshiba DVI->LVDS converter you are referring to. I have personally designed a couple of them and they have non such limitations.
Hey, can you email me at [email protected] ? I'm interested in a DVI->LVDS converter, would like to talk with someone who has worked with them in the past.
I would love there to be some kind of hacker's hardware gadget that allowed people to take various panels and connect them to computers.
While you're talking about big high res panels, I'd be happy with an extra little low res panel; any of the Nintendo DS screens, for example. But being able to use these old little panels could prevent some of them ending up in landfill.
I guess the other problem is the weirdly sub-optimal nature of multiple monitors - despite years of people wanting to use multiple monitors it's still a bit kludgy.
While you're talking about big high res panels, I'd be happy with an extra little low res panel; any of the Nintendo DS screens, for example. But being able to use these old little panels could prevent some of them ending up in landfill.
I guess the other problem is the weirdly sub-optimal nature of multiple monitors - despite years of people wanting to use multiple monitors it's still a bit kludgy.
it's not hardware and doesn't exactly what you'd like, but have a look at MIT's Junkyard Jumbotron: http://jumbotron.media.mit.edu
Essentially a bit of software to add other devices (ipads, phones etc.) as virtual screens
Essentially a bit of software to add other devices (ipads, phones etc.) as virtual screens
I don't know what your agenda is, but either you're overstating your experience in the business or wilfully exaggerating the risks.
We know where these panels came from. LG manufacture this panel for Apple. Apple's extremely high technical standards combined with the very high pixel count mean that yields are exceptionally low. LG's contract with Apple forbids them from selling these panels to any brand-name manufacturer. These cheap monitors soak up supply of otherwise unsaleable panels that had previously been an expensive waste problem for LG. It's not too good to be true, just a quirk of the economics of panel manufacture.
There is no reason to believe that these displays would present any greater safety risk than a typical item of consumer electronics. If you really are in the trade, you'll know that not a damned soul knows exactly what they're buying. Everyone got stung by the electrolytic plague, from Apple and Dell to military contractors. Shit happens in China. Personally, I don't trust Dell any more than I trust the Shanzhai boys. The PCBs look good, they've obviously spent the money where it needs to be spent and the panels have no worse provenance than those in any other value-priced monitor.
We know where these panels came from. LG manufacture this panel for Apple. Apple's extremely high technical standards combined with the very high pixel count mean that yields are exceptionally low. LG's contract with Apple forbids them from selling these panels to any brand-name manufacturer. These cheap monitors soak up supply of otherwise unsaleable panels that had previously been an expensive waste problem for LG. It's not too good to be true, just a quirk of the economics of panel manufacture.
There is no reason to believe that these displays would present any greater safety risk than a typical item of consumer electronics. If you really are in the trade, you'll know that not a damned soul knows exactly what they're buying. Everyone got stung by the electrolytic plague, from Apple and Dell to military contractors. Shit happens in China. Personally, I don't trust Dell any more than I trust the Shanzhai boys. The PCBs look good, they've obviously spent the money where it needs to be spent and the panels have no worse provenance than those in any other value-priced monitor.
To be honest, I'm not all that impressed with the quality of my brand-spanking-new 27" Apple Thunderbolt display. Not what I'd expect for a grand.
My 5-year-old Samsung 244t is still a better image.
My 5-year-old Samsung 244t is still a better image.
No agenda. Just sharing some experience, which, among other things, includes about fifteen years designing and manufacturing high-performance, high-reliability display systems for demanding applications; from military to industrial. Hardware, software, mechanical, etc.
I have personally bought hundreds of thousands of dollars of shit panels from LG and Samsung and others. Not third hand or gray market, but through official and approved distribution channels in the US.
The LCD business is surreal. It is nasty as can be. Most people don't know this and don't believe it until they are inside the beast for a while. I know of one company who got sued by the US government to the tune of millions of dollars for not delivering on a contract to buy a number of custom monitors.
Why couldn't they deliver? Because the panel manufacturer decided to discontinue the panel they were using without any advance notice. And, because most of these panels are single-source, the aforementioned company was royally fucked. They, quite literally, had their product evaporate into thin air. They could not build them to save their lives.
I don't know how the ordeal ended. We, at the time, got hit with the same issue but were lucky enough to "only" have burned about $800K developing a product around the newly obsolete panels. We had to spend another half a million to design a new product around a new panel. Brutal. This is one of the reasons I am glad I moved into the software business and left hardware behind.
As for the implied quality because Apple is using the panel. All I can say is I am laughing so hard my head hurts. As I mentioned in my post, there are various grades of panels. What Apple specifies, buys and accepts could be miles away from what manufacturer B is receiving, even if they use the same part number to order them.
Even Apple gets shit panels from LG. The original aluminum 23 inch Cinema Display had a horrible purple/magenta shift problem and some had a band of discoloration along the top --both due to the LG panel. Just Google it.
I bought some of these LG panels at the time. Same exact part number Apple was using. Exactly the same panel, right? Nope. I got a batch where more than half the panels went purple within about six months or less. I figured we burned $250K on bad panels on that one. And, what's worst, you have absolutely no recourse with the panel manufacturers. The OEM business is very different from buying a monitor at Best Buy. Once we cracked-open the factory packaging (bag/box) the warranty evaporated very, very quickly, thirty to ninety days, if you were lucky. Most stuff is sold "NCNR" (Non Cancelable - Non Returnable). Translation: It's yours.
The idea that the same part number equates to the same quality and results doesn't necessarily hold water. It's akin to the idea that all models of the same car are just as good as the best one they ever built. There is such a thing as good and bad versions of that same exact car, lemons, if you will.
Saying "hey, I bought the same car my neighbor bought" doesn't guarantee that it'll be just as good or as bad as hers. Don't fall into the trap of believing that because Apple (or whoever) uses a certain panel or part then all instances of that panel or part must be good. That could not be farther from the truth.
With regards to the cheap 27 inch monitors, do as you wish. It's your money. I am merely pointing out that things are not always as good as they seem. Other than that, I don't care if you or anyone else buys them. I am no-longer in that business and I am glad. Software is sooooo much easier than hardware.
I have personally bought hundreds of thousands of dollars of shit panels from LG and Samsung and others. Not third hand or gray market, but through official and approved distribution channels in the US.
The LCD business is surreal. It is nasty as can be. Most people don't know this and don't believe it until they are inside the beast for a while. I know of one company who got sued by the US government to the tune of millions of dollars for not delivering on a contract to buy a number of custom monitors.
Why couldn't they deliver? Because the panel manufacturer decided to discontinue the panel they were using without any advance notice. And, because most of these panels are single-source, the aforementioned company was royally fucked. They, quite literally, had their product evaporate into thin air. They could not build them to save their lives.
I don't know how the ordeal ended. We, at the time, got hit with the same issue but were lucky enough to "only" have burned about $800K developing a product around the newly obsolete panels. We had to spend another half a million to design a new product around a new panel. Brutal. This is one of the reasons I am glad I moved into the software business and left hardware behind.
As for the implied quality because Apple is using the panel. All I can say is I am laughing so hard my head hurts. As I mentioned in my post, there are various grades of panels. What Apple specifies, buys and accepts could be miles away from what manufacturer B is receiving, even if they use the same part number to order them.
Even Apple gets shit panels from LG. The original aluminum 23 inch Cinema Display had a horrible purple/magenta shift problem and some had a band of discoloration along the top --both due to the LG panel. Just Google it.
I bought some of these LG panels at the time. Same exact part number Apple was using. Exactly the same panel, right? Nope. I got a batch where more than half the panels went purple within about six months or less. I figured we burned $250K on bad panels on that one. And, what's worst, you have absolutely no recourse with the panel manufacturers. The OEM business is very different from buying a monitor at Best Buy. Once we cracked-open the factory packaging (bag/box) the warranty evaporated very, very quickly, thirty to ninety days, if you were lucky. Most stuff is sold "NCNR" (Non Cancelable - Non Returnable). Translation: It's yours.
The idea that the same part number equates to the same quality and results doesn't necessarily hold water. It's akin to the idea that all models of the same car are just as good as the best one they ever built. There is such a thing as good and bad versions of that same exact car, lemons, if you will.
Saying "hey, I bought the same car my neighbor bought" doesn't guarantee that it'll be just as good or as bad as hers. Don't fall into the trap of believing that because Apple (or whoever) uses a certain panel or part then all instances of that panel or part must be good. That could not be farther from the truth.
With regards to the cheap 27 inch monitors, do as you wish. It's your money. I am merely pointing out that things are not always as good as they seem. Other than that, I don't care if you or anyone else buys them. I am no-longer in that business and I am glad. Software is sooooo much easier than hardware.
I don't understand why any of that would be relevant to the consumer. People buying these monitors know what they're getting - 27" LG panels with minor uniformity issues or a few bad pixels, wrapped in a cheap but not awful chassis. The eBay sellers will test monitors before they ship them and are providing good aftersales service. We both know that the electronics business is FUBAR, I just don't see why that would influence your decision to buy one of these monitors.
> We know where these panels came from. LG manufacture this panel for Apple.
The last time I read this on HN, less than 24 hours ago, it was clearly branded a rumour.
The last time I read this on HN, less than 24 hours ago, it was clearly branded a rumour.
I guess it can be called into question as to whether these came directly from Apple's supply, but it is indeed the same panel. Several people have taken the monitors apart and taken pictures and it's the same LG panel as the Apply cinema display that has the same resolution. I can't find the threads now, but they are somewhere over in the monitor section of overcocker's forum.
You can't buy panels from "Apple's supply" any more than you can buy bread from the shipment slotted to go to you local Walmart. Apple, Dell, HP and other large companies sign contracts for sizable deliveries of these components. In some cases the panels are made exclusively for a specific manufacturer (and corresponding product). And, in these cases, it is very common to have a contractual restriction on the availability of the panel in question for general use. In other words, I could not buy a single panel for a year (or more). Once the panels are release for sale to non-contract parties (generally industrial users or other OEMs) the manufacturer will make it available to distribution, book orders and schedule manufacturing accordingly. Lead times run anywhere from 12 to 20+ weeks depending on the panel and other factors. Some B-grade (and below) panels are immediately available (manufacturers love to unload these rather than take the loss). A-grade panels go through the standard manufacturing process and, well, you get yours when they are ready. They don't cut into Apple's supply to sell some to Joe-Blow-Monitor manufacturer.
It sounds like people are somewhat confused and concluding that because the panel had the same part number as the one used by Apple they "came directly from Apple's supply". The only way that can happen is if Apple discontinues the product in question and there's an overstock of panels that the manufacturer needs to unload or; Apple rejects a pile of panels and, again, the manufacturer is very happy to unload them on the unsuspecting masses. Other than that, the fact that the panels have the same part number does not mean that they "came directly from Apple's supply".
It sounds like people are somewhat confused and concluding that because the panel had the same part number as the one used by Apple they "came directly from Apple's supply". The only way that can happen is if Apple discontinues the product in question and there's an overstock of panels that the manufacturer needs to unload or; Apple rejects a pile of panels and, again, the manufacturer is very happy to unload them on the unsuspecting masses. Other than that, the fact that the panels have the same part number does not mean that they "came directly from Apple's supply".
Don't you think the many forum posts, now many months old (they start in Feb), from people with these monitors would point out any raging extreme risks like them commonly bursting into fire?
You realize, too, that these are EXACTLY the same LCD panels used in Dell and Apple monitors, from the same factories, right?
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/dgm_ips-2701wph....
Do a Google search for the LM270WQ1 label you see on the panel in those pictures, and notice how often the words "Apple" and "Dell" appear.
You realize, too, that these are EXACTLY the same LCD panels used in Dell and Apple monitors, from the same factories, right?
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/dgm_ips-2701wph....
Do a Google search for the LM270WQ1 label you see on the panel in those pictures, and notice how often the words "Apple" and "Dell" appear.
I think the consensus is that they are not exactly the same. These may be panels that were rejected from high quality batches. And that only speaks to the panel itself. Do we trust the other components? I was shopping for panels in this price range and went with the Dell e-IPS monitors. I just trust them more.
More discussion http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4292740
*edit: fixed bad link
More discussion http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4292740
*edit: fixed bad link
Even if they are the same panels, they might very well have much cheaper power supplies in them.
This is reminding me of a college student job as a PC tech:
We had about 20 labs, 3 of them had 1-year old Dell Precision workstations with 22" Dell LCD monitors. During the summer, we noticed the monitors developing a weird wavy waterline-ish streak along the top 2" of the LCD. The LCD still displayed fine, but everything above this waterline was noticeably darker. The wavy waterline was different on each monitor - on some it only extended down a centimeter across one corner.
Eventually half of the monitors in these 3 labs developed this strange mark. We RMA'd in batches; eventually we learned the glue holding the LCD layers together was failing. The older (and newer) Dell LCDs didn't have that issue.
That's the kind of thing I'd worry about here, especially since there's likely no recourse. Will these LCDs have strange issues, like a watermark caused by the failure of cheap glue?
We had about 20 labs, 3 of them had 1-year old Dell Precision workstations with 22" Dell LCD monitors. During the summer, we noticed the monitors developing a weird wavy waterline-ish streak along the top 2" of the LCD. The LCD still displayed fine, but everything above this waterline was noticeably darker. The wavy waterline was different on each monitor - on some it only extended down a centimeter across one corner.
Eventually half of the monitors in these 3 labs developed this strange mark. We RMA'd in batches; eventually we learned the glue holding the LCD layers together was failing. The older (and newer) Dell LCDs didn't have that issue.
That's the kind of thing I'd worry about here, especially since there's likely no recourse. Will these LCDs have strange issues, like a watermark caused by the failure of cheap glue?
I think it's pretty obvious that if there was no risk involved, the market would drive up the prices on these panels to where Apple/Dell/HP charge.
There is obviously risk. You're ordering from the other side of the world, little customer support, the manual is in Korean, the description itself states that the panels are inferior to the type you'd get from the big boys ... not to mention anything of the electronics, and the units come with a funny plug to top it off.
And that's just the stuff you know off the bat.
For the majority of people, this alone, is unacceptable.
Then again, I'm the sort that's perfectly fine opening up the LCD and replacing a blown cap with a soldering iron. Been there, done that.
Making this a fantastic opportunity =)
There is obviously risk. You're ordering from the other side of the world, little customer support, the manual is in Korean, the description itself states that the panels are inferior to the type you'd get from the big boys ... not to mention anything of the electronics, and the units come with a funny plug to top it off.
And that's just the stuff you know off the bat.
For the majority of people, this alone, is unacceptable.
Then again, I'm the sort that's perfectly fine opening up the LCD and replacing a blown cap with a soldering iron. Been there, done that.
Making this a fantastic opportunity =)
Actually, Microcenter carries one model, so you can buy domestic if you'd like.
The panel itself could be exactly the same part number that Dell and other use. This does not mean at all that it is the same quality or specification panel delivered to the large manufacturers at all. These could be substandard in a lot of ways, some obvious, some not so.
That said, they could be perfectly good too. Your guess is as good as mine.
That said, they could be perfectly good too. Your guess is as good as mine.
You could buy an IPS LCD for a bit above 200 quid for years now. Someone has been not paying attention.
edit: turns out it was I who was not paying attention, not realising that's it not about affordable IPSs in general but this specific size.
edit: turns out it was I who was not paying attention, not realising that's it not about affordable IPSs in general but this specific size.
The article is referring to both a 27" and 2560x1440 display, not just any IPS.
This is news to me. Sure, you could probably by A IPS LCD for 200 quid two years ago, but a 27" one?
I don't know, I'm not in the economic class that can afford things like that so I wouldn't even consider such a size. With the added distance requirement I don't think I could even fit one on my desk. Is 27" the comfort sweetspot then?
Depends what you want to do! If you have the eyesight for it, you can fit a lot of code on a 2560x1440 panel & because it's IPS you don't get a colour shift from looking at oblique angles.
Yeah me too. A 2560x1440 S-IPS panel for £200? Never seen one.
TN panels have been down at that price & lower for ages, but not IPS ones.
TN panels have been down at that price & lower for ages, but not IPS ones.
Dell U2312HM 23" IPS LED Monitor - £187.66
...and similar ones. I remember there were quite a handful of them when I was picking mine (I bought a ViewSonic one because it was the cheapest swivel option).
... Which is a 23" screen and has a native resolution of 1920x1080. How does this compare again?
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Last month I bought a 24" 1920x1200 display (Dell UltraSharp U2412M) for the same price as he's talking about paying for a 27" 2560x1440.
It's an S-IPS panel as opposed to eIPS, which you'll find on some of the smaller cheaper IPS monitors. And as others have pointed out, it's 27 inches and rocking a high resolution.
This article doesn't mention, that these panels don't have the decryption hardware for DHCP. That means you won't be able to watch blu-rays on this monitor.
Unless, of course, you live in a country without a DMCA-type law, and you rip your legally owned discs to a media server.
If you play them from a media server, it's not really a blu-ray anymore :)
Oh actually I just remembered that AnyDVD HD transparently decrypts Blu-rays. http://www.slysoft.com/en/anydvdhd.html
Oh actually I just remembered that AnyDVD HD transparently decrypts Blu-rays. http://www.slysoft.com/en/anydvdhd.html
I've ordered one, but I'm more than a little concerned about the potential 30% failure rate that I read about in the previous thread.
I'm a little bit curious though, as to WHY exactly these screen's failure rates are so high, or how they fail. If there's any way to prolong my LCD's life I'd like to be made aware.
I'm a little bit curious though, as to WHY exactly these screen's failure rates are so high, or how they fail. If there's any way to prolong my LCD's life I'd like to be made aware.
That 30% is anecdotal from ONE guy's company that bought a few of these monitors. The sample size is too small, and also there are multiple Korean OEMs selling similar monitors. Some are using nicer boards than others, the same way some are using nicer casing than others.
I've heard murmurring of people getting Square warranties for these monitors. Might be worth investigating if the failure rate is a concern for you. ~$300+warranty costs will still be significantly less than a Cinema Display.
I've heard murmurring of people getting Square warranties for these monitors. Might be worth investigating if the failure rate is a concern for you. ~$300+warranty costs will still be significantly less than a Cinema Display.
Perhaps that's why they're £200?
Also, they don't work with some video cards (I know my Radeon 5750 has occasional trouble syncing with my HP LP2475W for some reason, but that's single-link DVI only. I imagine these monitors are dual-link DVI displays?)
Also, they don't work with some video cards (I know my Radeon 5750 has occasional trouble syncing with my HP LP2475W for some reason, but that's single-link DVI only. I imagine these monitors are dual-link DVI displays?)
Of course they're cheap for a reason. I was just a little bit interested in the technical details of what causes a display like this to fail.
And yes, these monitors are dual-link dvi only.
And yes, these monitors are dual-link dvi only.
Just to be clear: the 5750 is supposed to be dual-link capable, but the ebay sellers for these monitors all seem to state that they don't work with the 5750 (nor a bunch of other ATI & NVidia graphics cards of similar vintage).
I wish monitor arms could come down in price with them. Its crazy that some of the arms cost as much as the monitor themselves.
The link below says that LG is about to introduce their own very very cheap HDMI compatible ips 27 inch, the IPS277L-BN
for just 30,000 yen. OK in USD that's like $385, but you get HDMI and a real company behind it. Also that price is for Japan so who knows what the US price would be.
(in Japanese): http://watchmonoblog.blog71.fc2.com/blog-entry-2304.html
[edit: m3koval rightly points out that this monitor is low resolution so only really fit for gaming or video viewing. My mistake. ]
(in Japanese): http://watchmonoblog.blog71.fc2.com/blog-entry-2304.html
[edit: m3koval rightly points out that this monitor is low resolution so only really fit for gaming or video viewing. My mistake. ]
That description states a resolution of 1920x1200 instead of the 2560x1440 on these panels. I think 1920x1200 looks pretty awful on a 24" monitor, so I'm sure it will look even worse on one that is 3" larger.
It's a shame these monitors don't have an HDMI input. Then again, I can't complain given the price.
It's a shame these monitors don't have an HDMI input. Then again, I can't complain given the price.
I've read before that my macbook pro 15" with regular display port wont support the 27" displays, can anyone confirm this is true? even with the Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter (http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB571Z/A?)
I'm using one of those with a 13" mid2010 mbp to power a 30" display at 2560x1600. It works, just make sure you use a dvi-d cable as well, most of the complaints I noticed about it not working when I was researching it seemed to be because the person hadn't actually got a dvi-d cable to go with the adaptor.
thanks. I'm running on a 15" late 2009, hoping it works too, I'll look into the cable as well, Thanks!
I have a 2-year-old 13" MBP that is running a 27" display (2560x1440) just fine (with a DP to DP cable).
I use a 15" macbook pro with display port on a 27" display at work with the dual link adapter, no problem.
Even though I kind of wish people would not spread the gospel on this issue, since I'd like the prices to stay low, I can report that I bought 2 of these some weeks ago and really, really love the result.
economies of scale vastly outweigh short term demand fluctuations in determining technology prices.
I keep hearing programmers tell me how much better IPS is than TN, but then they emphasize colors and viewing angles. Are these monitors better for programming and text editing?
I had one TN display that got unpleasantly dim along the edges when viewed a bit off angle. I could never find a position for that monitor where I could go from sitting straight to slouching without some one of those positions resulting in dim edges.
But, aside from that one bad example, if the text is crisp and there a plenty of pixels, then it is probably good enough for programming and text editing.
Many programmers also do web design, photograph, games, or other tasks that benefit from a better display though.
But, aside from that one bad example, if the text is crisp and there a plenty of pixels, then it is probably good enough for programming and text editing.
Many programmers also do web design, photograph, games, or other tasks that benefit from a better display though.
Yes. I'm the kind of guy who couldn't care less about retina screens (they don't look that much sharper to me)... but definitely can tell the difference that IPS screens make. In contrast with the TN LCDs that you buy that requires tuning to make the images and text not washed out, with IPS everything looks right out of the box without you having to fix anything.
Especially much better text rendering when you turn on subpixel rendering, which is a huge deal to me (I'm typing this on my 22 inches 2209WA which I had for two years and absolutely love).
Especially much better text rendering when you turn on subpixel rendering, which is a huge deal to me (I'm typing this on my 22 inches 2209WA which I had for two years and absolutely love).
Viewing angles matter more on a larger display due to the ratios of the distance from your eyes to the size of the screen. IPS screens have much better viewing angles than TN.
Man, does it have to be a revolution?
I own a 27" Samsung SyncMaster P2770, it's a TN panel, didn't know about any of these things when I bought it, whish I could be patient and research more. I'm not so much for viewing angle, so I'm just wondering how different the color reproduction quality is compared to any average IPS panel. If you just browsing around and doing stuff in terminal, is it worth to get one?
For anyone who is not a graphic design type, color reproduction is primarily an enjoyment thing.
Like high quality headphones. It is in no way whatsoever required, but some feel it enhances their enjoyment.
That said, if a terminal constitutes most of your usage, there is honestly little point in getting an IPS display. It just doesn't matter whether or not the blacks are really perfect black, when you're reading text on a white background.
Like high quality headphones. It is in no way whatsoever required, but some feel it enhances their enjoyment.
That said, if a terminal constitutes most of your usage, there is honestly little point in getting an IPS display. It just doesn't matter whether or not the blacks are really perfect black, when you're reading text on a white background.
I have two 28" TN monitors, and I find them much more comfortable with light gray text on deep gray backgrounds than with dark text on a white background.
I personally prefer light grey on almost-black backgrounds, black-on-white is just the most common.
If you're a freak like me and swivel your monitor 90 degrees into portrait orientation it makes a massive difference (even if only because of the viewing angle - the horizontal and vertical viewing sensitivities are different and more optimised for the portrait mode).
Isn't the pixel orientation geared for landscape? Every monitor I've used just doesn't look right in portrait. I've tried turning off ClearType (I'm using windows) but just looks strange. I don't know exactly how to communicate what it is, but it's just not good. I've tried it with 3 generations of mid-range Samsung TN panels, and most recently with Dell 2007FP and U2412.
There is a guy I work with who uses two 20" 16:9 TN panels in portrait orientation, and it always looks bad to me. He says it looks fine.
There is a guy I work with who uses two 20" 16:9 TN panels in portrait orientation, and it always looks bad to me. He says it looks fine.
That's an artifact of the TN panels... IPS panels are like those on the iPad and can be viewed from any angle without bad color distortion.
Yeah, that's what I expected, but is sadly not the case. I don't know what variety of IPS the 2007FP is but the U2412 is e-IPS. Perhaps I need to pay some real money and go with the H-IPS or S-IPS to get that experience. Maybe I can score one of these knock-off Korean monitors to test that.
I also feel like maybe the glare coating could be contributing to the problem. I should get a glossy one to test.
Oh, btw, I think the colors are fine from any angle or orientation. The best way I can describe the problem is that the "sharpness" is off.
I also feel like maybe the glare coating could be contributing to the problem. I should get a glossy one to test.
Oh, btw, I think the colors are fine from any angle or orientation. The best way I can describe the problem is that the "sharpness" is off.
> is it worth to get one?
Yes. Many bloggs with light-gray-on-white text will become less annoying. Even Github used to look like xxxx on a TN panel. Apple-inspired subtle gradients of gray really do look better on IPS.
Yes. Many bloggs with light-gray-on-white text will become less annoying. Even Github used to look like xxxx on a TN panel. Apple-inspired subtle gradients of gray really do look better on IPS.
Correction to the article: The majority of the displays only have DVI, but a few have DP, HDMI, and VGA.
Am I reading correctly that you shouldn't expect to hook one of these things up to a MacBook?
No, I did it just fine. Check my comment history.
Very interesting, which model is the non glossy version
Can I use three of those for one 2011 MBP?