Apple Pencil Pro and iPad Simulate a Shadow of the Pen Being Emulated(threads.net)
threads.net
Apple Pencil Pro and iPad Simulate a Shadow of the Pen Being Emulated
https://www.threads.net/@snazzyq/post/C7CpmYevMwf
15 comments
Again the “insane attention to details” while in 2024 attaching a picture or a file to a message in Apple Mail.app macOS is an absolute nightmare. One example amongst many many others. It’s cool, very cool, but I wouldn’t call Apple this way while there’s so much awkward choices to be fixed in their software.
One of my "favorite" macos interface decisions - having the Refresh and Settings menu options at the bottom of the Wifi dropdown list - so it's a constantly moving target as you're waiting for a certain network to be seen, or if it automatically refreshes as you're going for the Settings option...
Changing my input and output audio devices in the sound dropdown is almost impossible at work. There are dozens of Apple TVs that appear one after the other while you're scrolling or clicking.
I can't disable Apple TV support on my Mac :(
I can't disable Apple TV support on my Mac :(
it's actually better now (though not perfect), it has a list of known networks (which usually doesn't change much) and then "Other Networks" is a sub menu.
After years in the tech space I now see this as “A single developer’s (or maybe designer’s or maybe even a cleaner’s) insane attention to detail paired with the time and effort it takes for an idea to get traction”.
It’s rarely ever been the company itself or even the policies/vibe of a company but instead it’s been the few employees who propose, communicate, and support the details that eventually get rightfully called “insane”.
It’s rarely ever been the company itself or even the policies/vibe of a company but instead it’s been the few employees who propose, communicate, and support the details that eventually get rightfully called “insane”.
Can't you just drag it into place? Am I missing something?
But sadly I find Apple's attention to detail in its UX to be typically rather low. MacOS in particular is littered with broken interactions.
The underpinnings -- the stuff users don't see -- suffers from this much less, and if there were a choice of where to have attention to detail, that would be the right choice. But Apple is big enough not to have to make this choice.
But sadly I find Apple's attention to detail in its UX to be typically rather low. MacOS in particular is littered with broken interactions.
The underpinnings -- the stuff users don't see -- suffers from this much less, and if there were a choice of where to have attention to detail, that would be the right choice. But Apple is big enough not to have to make this choice.
It’s actually impossible to attach pictures, they always are displayed in the mail. Also, when you drop a file into the message it’s not “attached” in a “attachment box” but their icon is actually floating anywhere you dropped it in the message.
If you right-click (two-finger click) on the photo you can toggle "View as icon"/""View in Place". The default is to show it directly.
Well, you can drag them to the end if you want them segregated. Usually I prefer them inline, but sometimes I drag them to the end. I don't know what an "attachment box" is.
Outlook used to get confused -- when it first encountered an attachment it simply ignored the rest of the message. I think MS eventually fixed that bug. Is an "attachment box" an outlook thing? Apple mail correctly finds and handles any attachments anywhere in the message.
Well, you can drag them to the end if you want them segregated. Usually I prefer them inline, but sometimes I drag them to the end. I don't know what an "attachment box" is.
Outlook used to get confused -- when it first encountered an attachment it simply ignored the rest of the message. I think MS eventually fixed that bug. Is an "attachment box" an outlook thing? Apple mail correctly finds and handles any attachments anywhere in the message.
RFC 2183 allows for “inline” and “attachment” dispositions. Inline are part of the body and “inline” with the content of the mail and are automatically displayed. Attachments are to be shown as icons or links in a designated area.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2183
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2183
This probably reflects how big tech companies work. You're more likely to get promoted because of "wow" than because you of a mundane feature everyone else has. E-mail just isn't exciting.
And yet it's the mundane stuff that keeps me on a certain platform. Day to day, I notice the hiring stuff more, because it constantly gets in the way.
> attaching a picture or a file to a message in Apple Mail.app macOS is an absolute nightmare
Am I missing something here? I just drag and drop into the email body and it just works.
Am I missing something here? I just drag and drop into the email body and it just works.
Attach a single page PDF and try to "Show as symbol". Only works if there is one PDF per line in the mail. Does not work if there is no line break between multiple PDFs. Works again if you put the second document on a new line. (At lest for me)
Or other examples:
- OTP on Safari iPad OS have a separate, single-purpose "paste" button. The hold-long and choose "paste" does not work. The only input field I found where pasting does work in a different way. - "Use a random mail" for login (using iCloud Relay) always appear like 150ms later than the regular "fill password from Password Manager" icon. Sou you're either fast enough, slow enough or you end up with iCloud relay but thought you chose the password manager (because the action changed right under your finger)
Or other examples:
- OTP on Safari iPad OS have a separate, single-purpose "paste" button. The hold-long and choose "paste" does not work. The only input field I found where pasting does work in a different way. - "Use a random mail" for login (using iCloud Relay) always appear like 150ms later than the regular "fill password from Password Manager" icon. Sou you're either fast enough, slow enough or you end up with iCloud relay but thought you chose the password manager (because the action changed right under your finger)
'Skeuomorphism' got lot of flak during its time and maybe most of them justified.
But this is (my) first example, where it is with a purpose - affordance.
But this is (my) first example, where it is with a purpose - affordance.
There’s no way this particular thought would ever cross the mind of anyone at Google or Microsoft.
To contrast, Surface Pro's pen doesn't need to stick on the side to charge, so no falling off when putting in or getting out of a bag, and the main camera is properly centered.
Different priorities.
Different priorities.
Camera is correctly centered on iPad if you hold it vertically. As to the pen, idk, I’ve never seen anyone use one with a Surface outside Microsoft’s ads. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, just that I haven’t seen it.
Not at a university then.
I teach Math with mine, using OneNote as a whiteboard replacement. I've also seen about 6/160 students in my classes this semester using them to take notes. Many more (about 40/160) were using iPads though.
I teach Math with mine, using OneNote as a whiteboard replacement. I've also seen about 6/160 students in my classes this semester using them to take notes. Many more (about 40/160) were using iPads though.
This is an absolutely miserable way to take notes. iPad, too. I just don’t understand why anyone would prefer a tablet for taking detailed notes instead of using paper.
Can you draw a basically perfect circle? I sure can't, but I can set shapes to autocorrect into perfect shapes instead of my janky drawn ones.
Can you quickly change the color of your notes to whatever you want? Nope, you'd have to carry each color pen separately.
Can you carry all the notes for each of your 5 classes in something that easily fits in the hand?
There are a billion reasons. Honestly, it boggles my mind why anyone would prefer to take notes on paper.
Can you quickly change the color of your notes to whatever you want? Nope, you'd have to carry each color pen separately.
Can you carry all the notes for each of your 5 classes in something that easily fits in the hand?
There are a billion reasons. Honestly, it boggles my mind why anyone would prefer to take notes on paper.
Do you need any of those things? Would you trade them for 20% faster writing speed?
Yes. I literally said that I teach Math. So perfect shapes and multiple colors do come in handy.
And no, I’m sure my students would not like me writing faster.
And no, I’m sure my students would not like me writing faster.
When I was in college, I took notes digitally whenever I could. When in a trip, traveling, or at home, I didn't need to carry another notebook which made my bag heavier. I would be carrying my tablet anyway. I also didn’t need to be mindful about carrying a specific notebook.
Morever, digital notes sync. A note taken in tablet can be viewed in laptop or desktop or phone whenever the opportunity presented itself.
Morever, digital notes sync. A note taken in tablet can be viewed in laptop or desktop or phone whenever the opportunity presented itself.
But they are more cumbersome to take and to read. That negates the utility somewhat. Taking notes is _the_ most important thing you can do during lecture. They force you to compress and internalize information, and they are indispensable for refreshing one's memory when reviewing them. I'd think not just twice but ten times before messing with the efficiency of this process. Here's what I'd do in 2024: I'd still take notes on paper, but then scan them into PDF for convenience.
> But they are more cumbersome to take and to read
I'm genuinely curious about what you find cumbersome.
Granted I've never been furiously writing dozens of pages of notes to begin with (to me the most important thing you do is listen to the meeting/lecture/event, notes are bookmarks and comments). I've used an iPad Pro and then the Surface Pro for meeting notes for about 5 years now, and it's just an infinitely paging/scrolling canvas, nothing more nothing less.
I'm genuinely curious about what you find cumbersome.
Granted I've never been furiously writing dozens of pages of notes to begin with (to me the most important thing you do is listen to the meeting/lecture/event, notes are bookmarks and comments). I've used an iPad Pro and then the Surface Pro for meeting notes for about 5 years now, and it's just an infinitely paging/scrolling canvas, nothing more nothing less.
Yes, dense material you absorb during a lecture does typically require a lot of writing. IDK about you but I found writing down at least all the formulae and graphs tremendously helpful for absorbing the material. If you write detailed notes, they become far more than bookmarks, you can then refer to notes primarily, and to the textbook for the stuff that's not clear from the notes.
"You're holding it wrong" again
The camera is on the long side on the new Pro models (finally). And off center to not interfere with the pen's magnets.
Probably not, seeing as they're too busy with the obvious things like putting an eraser at the bottom of their pencils.
Yesterday I tested siri on Mac os 14.4.1 and I finally can set more than one timer. Not sure when it changed, but it seems they are making changes for the better and listening to feedback in the feedback app.
One of the Apple bigwigs made a self-deprecating joke about this at a recent Apple event. I forgot which one, but it was something like "annd... you can now even set more than one timer. Will technological wonders never cease!"
I thought it was interesting because a.) it showed they were aware of how common the frustration was, and b.) man it takes the world's leading tech company a lonnnnnng time to implement a feature that is about as simple as features get, if it isn't one they invented themselves.
I thought it was interesting because a.) it showed they were aware of how common the frustration was, and b.) man it takes the world's leading tech company a lonnnnnng time to implement a feature that is about as simple as features get, if it isn't one they invented themselves.
If I recall correctly, it was Craig Federighi at last year’s WWDC.
Yep. It's exactly 2323 seconds in to the WWDC 2023 keynote. The quote is "we truly live in an age of wonders."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYkq9Rgoj8E&t=2323s
I carried an Android daily for this use case, since I use multiple timers throughout the day. I appreciate that they acknowledged, even if in a tounge-in-cheek way, that this should have happened sooner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYkq9Rgoj8E&t=2323s
I carried an Android daily for this use case, since I use multiple timers throughout the day. I appreciate that they acknowledged, even if in a tounge-in-cheek way, that this should have happened sooner.
Yes, that was it!
The delivery of that line, deadpan, was so well-done I laughed out loud. That's why I rememebered it, even though I don't personally ever need to set multiple timers.
The delivery of that line, deadpan, was so well-done I laughed out loud. That's why I rememebered it, even though I don't personally ever need to set multiple timers.
That's neat. Too bad my $2000 '21 M1 ipad pro overheats and burns up 30% of its battery now with 35 minutes of safari browsing.
I've used this thing 99% for instagram and safari, with a little procreate now and then. Absolutely baffling that this is acceptable.
I see someone arguing that this is useful because orientation affects real pens, so being able to see the rotation of the fake pen is useful. But... does the program actually utilize the imagined rotation of the pen in this physical way? I would guess no because that would not work very well with the apple pencil that is irl geometrically not the same.
Yes, it does. The "shadow" isn't a shadow, it is a preview of what your mark will look like, before you actually make the mark. So if it isn't aligned how you want, you can rotate the stylus in your fingers to get the angle you want before drawing.
I'm not an artist, but this is actually useful to me even for just writing sometimes, e.g. when writing Japanese characters with a flat/bladed pen style.
You are right that the physical Apple Pencil stylus doesn't have the same geometry as the virtual pen/brush/etc it is modeling, so without the preview mark on the screen when you hover the tip of the stylus near it, it would be really hard to know what the angle was.
Perhaps some real artists could develop a muscle memory, because while the stylus tip is round, the body of it has one flat edge. In my quick testing, it seems that the angle of the virtual brush/pen tip stays consistent relative to the flat edge of the stulus itself, even across drawings and putting the styus away and taking it out again.
But for normal people, I think the preview indicator is very useful and easy to use — although not needed at all for many pen/pencil styles, since those also are modeled on writing implements with round tips.
I'm not an artist, but this is actually useful to me even for just writing sometimes, e.g. when writing Japanese characters with a flat/bladed pen style.
You are right that the physical Apple Pencil stylus doesn't have the same geometry as the virtual pen/brush/etc it is modeling, so without the preview mark on the screen when you hover the tip of the stylus near it, it would be really hard to know what the angle was.
Perhaps some real artists could develop a muscle memory, because while the stylus tip is round, the body of it has one flat edge. In my quick testing, it seems that the angle of the virtual brush/pen tip stays consistent relative to the flat edge of the stulus itself, even across drawings and putting the styus away and taking it out again.
But for normal people, I think the preview indicator is very useful and easy to use — although not needed at all for many pen/pencil styles, since those also are modeled on writing implements with round tips.
> Yes, it does. The "shadow" isn't a shadow, it is a preview of what your mark will look like, before you actually make the mark.
... No it's very clearly a shadow of the pen. Watch the link. It's not the angled mark preview.
... No it's very clearly a shadow of the pen. Watch the link. It's not the angled mark preview.
Yes, you are right, of course. I missed the faint pen shadow the first time I watched the video. It appears in addition to the mark preview, and is indeed a nice touch.
Look at the tip.
I would tell you to go to a specific timestamp to see the pen shadow that you are missing, but the Threads video player doesn't seem to have a visible time nor a way to pause playback. That's unfortunate.
If you go 1/4 to 1/3 of the way through the video when the camera zooms in, you'll probably see it.
If you go 1/4 to 1/3 of the way through the video when the camera zooms in, you'll probably see it.
There's a shadow of the tip of the pen, but it's not the mark preview. The mark preview has been there for a long time.
I love the attention to detail and the artistry of this feature, but ironically it actually backfires on me. The shadow being there mainly raises my awareness that the physical pencil isn't actually the right shape. The shadow isn't visible enough to let me quickly grok my pen's orientation either, and it being directly underneath the pen (as though the light source is right above me) makes it very hard for me to see. I like to position my eyes right above where I'm drawing and it helps me be a lot more accurate, but that's the worst position for viewing this shadow.
The program does alter the mark shape based on the rotation of the physical Apple Pencil. The faked reflection of the fountain pen may help illustrate that for the user.
In a similar vein, pass through mode on my Vision Pro has a similar effect. I adds super realistic looking shadows on the ground to mimic shadows cast by the windows open. I didnt notice it for a few weeks because it looked so realistic.
[deleted]
To live in a time and age where we have enough compute that we can casually render a model in a notes app for that purpose…
Was a Mont Blanc pen also flattened into an iPad in that ad they apologized for?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40313733
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40313733
What’s next, a shadow of a 3d-printed save icon?
imagine if they paid this level of detail to QAing software releases!
> You can’t watch this and not smile.
Not only did I not smile, my eyes rolled so hard I pulled a muscle. That's a whole lot of needless computation on a battery-powered device to show a smudge on my drawing that shouldn't be there.
Not only did I not smile, my eyes rolled so hard I pulled a muscle. That's a whole lot of needless computation on a battery-powered device to show a smudge on my drawing that shouldn't be there.
How much actual computation is it really though? Especially compared to all the other computations happening hundreds of times per second to render the display at all? Also given that the shadow is part of the pen interaction, they're almost certainly already calculating most of what you would need to render that shadow in the first place just to handle the tilt sensitivity.
I was wondering how this would compare in experience with putting a blank sheet of paper over a digitizer and using real pencil & eraser. The pencils might need RFID or something to tell what color/hardness it was.
At this rate I suppose the rich will live in VR (Vision Pro) and the rest live in the physical world (can't call it 'real' cause it sounds better somehow) to deal with issues like paper. It's like we're implementing Buddhism pulling the wool over our own eyes.
At this rate I suppose the rich will live in VR (Vision Pro) and the rest live in the physical world (can't call it 'real' cause it sounds better somehow) to deal with issues like paper. It's like we're implementing Buddhism pulling the wool over our own eyes.
What blows my mind is the dumb stuff apple fans get excited over. I draw on an ipad every day. I select tools every couple minutes. I'm never going to be looking at a drop shadow thats under the pen.
It's just not that interesting.
It's just not that interesting.
On the other hand, just because you're not consciously noticing it doesn't mean it's not affecting your experience (for better or worse).
Has anyone ever met one of these mythical “Apple fans”? I have a lot of people in my circle that are repeat apple customers for all the obvious reasons, but they are in no way “fans”, just repeat customers.
Yes they absolutely exist. I used to work with a bunch of them, and it was unreal. They would actually get angry when I mentioned that my Macbook Pro with Apple monitor (so all Apple hardware and software) would leave my laptop screen completely off after unplugging from the external monitor about 50% of the time. I had to hold the power button to hard reboot it in order to get the laptop screen back on. That bug was there for at least 9 months. It usually went in the same logically progression. First, denial (no way), then dismissal and blaming the user("works for me, you must be doing something wrong"), then acceptance but always with a comment like "it's worse on Windows" or similar.
My MBP before that had a weird bug where if the screen was completely off (which I routinely did at night so I could listen to a podcast while falling asleep), after right around 5 minutes it would suddenly blast the screen at full brightness, which lit up the room and shocked me back awake. I ended up "fixing" the bug by cutting out a piece of tin foil and taping it to the screen. Absolutely maddening when you're paying a premium for stuff that "just works" and the company (tightly) controls the entire stack to "ensure the quality user experience." After that point I finally had enough and just bought a Lenovo laptop and had a much better experience with Linux on it.
I think Apple makes some great hardware, and I wish it was more open/hacker friendly, but damn Apple is absolutely a religion to some people, and they don't take criticism well.
Now that said, I do think the vast majority of Apple customers are just like you. The super fans are just a very loud minority. Some Linux communities have the same problem where a small number of very loud assholes can overwhelm the average voice.
My MBP before that had a weird bug where if the screen was completely off (which I routinely did at night so I could listen to a podcast while falling asleep), after right around 5 minutes it would suddenly blast the screen at full brightness, which lit up the room and shocked me back awake. I ended up "fixing" the bug by cutting out a piece of tin foil and taping it to the screen. Absolutely maddening when you're paying a premium for stuff that "just works" and the company (tightly) controls the entire stack to "ensure the quality user experience." After that point I finally had enough and just bought a Lenovo laptop and had a much better experience with Linux on it.
I think Apple makes some great hardware, and I wish it was more open/hacker friendly, but damn Apple is absolutely a religion to some people, and they don't take criticism well.
Now that said, I do think the vast majority of Apple customers are just like you. The super fans are just a very loud minority. Some Linux communities have the same problem where a small number of very loud assholes can overwhelm the average voice.
Read old.reddit.com/r/apple to witness the zealotry - incitement topics include:
* Discussion of iPad not supporting desktop workloads like macOS despite costing as much as a MBP
* Discussion of the Apple mouse
* Discussion of EU regulation
* Discussion of the monopolistic nature of App stores and fees
* Discussion of iPad not supporting desktop workloads like macOS despite costing as much as a MBP
* Discussion of the Apple mouse
* Discussion of EU regulation
* Discussion of the monopolistic nature of App stores and fees
Yes but you can do the same for android, windows, different game consoles, etc
Forums can make tiny groups of people look large because they all aggregate in one place.
The same thing allowed flat earthers and such to believe they have huge numbers of supporters.
Forums can make tiny groups of people look large because they all aggregate in one place.
The same thing allowed flat earthers and such to believe they have huge numbers of supporters.
The person who came up with the link that is the basis of this story. The astounded reaction to a feature that isn't all that useful.
Feel free to criticize Apple, but if you're going to get into cheap fanboy wars, reddit is right over there -->
This isn't "insane attention to detail" — it's the basic functionality of the new feature. It's not just a shadow to look cool, it's literally the shape of what you are going to draw, if you actually touch the screen with the stylus.
Since they can't yet physically morph the rubber tip of the physical stylus to the shape and size of the brush or marker, this is a kind of clever workaround; the best they can do with today's tech.
(And it is indeed one of the two significant new features of this new Apple Pencil stylus, coming from the old one — the first and more important one to me personally being able to find the insanely expensive stylus when my child (or, OK, me myself) misplaces it.)
Since they can't yet physically morph the rubber tip of the physical stylus to the shape and size of the brush or marker, this is a kind of clever workaround; the best they can do with today's tech.
(And it is indeed one of the two significant new features of this new Apple Pencil stylus, coming from the old one — the first and more important one to me personally being able to find the insanely expensive stylus when my child (or, OK, me myself) misplaces it.)
I think the tip shadow thing has been done before on other devices (Samsung note) but the shadow of the entire pen you're using is new. It looks very cool.
Ohhhhh — OK, I watched in on my phone, and did not actually see the faint shadow of the pen body itself, and thought we were discussing the preview of the pen tip.
I retract my statement, haha — that is indeed some pretty nice attention to detail. :D
I retract my statement, haha — that is indeed some pretty nice attention to detail. :D