OpenCat: Open-source robotic pet quadruped framework(petoi.com)
petoi.com
OpenCat: Open-source robotic pet quadruped framework
https://www.petoi.com/pages/opencat-open-source-robot-pet-framework
23 comments
Petoi had a rep at OpenSauce in San Francisco. I picked up a Nybble, because I like the look of Nybble better than Bittle.
It's a fun little toy and I really appreciate what Petoi are doing with the robots & the OpenCat framework! However... due to either a design flaw or my own subtle mistake in assembling it (haven't identified which yet), the poor cat's tail is too long! It hits the floor and topples the bot over!
It's a fun little toy and I really appreciate what Petoi are doing with the robots & the OpenCat framework! However... due to either a design flaw or my own subtle mistake in assembling it (haven't identified which yet), the poor cat's tail is too long! It hits the floor and topples the bot over!
Charles Stross’s Accelerando comes to mind.
Very much so! Someone clearly did not (or did?) read the book...
I have Bittle, their Open Source robot dog. Got it when they were doing the kickstarter.
It’s pretty cool :)
It’s pretty cool :)
Despite their cool look and visually appealing design, QUGVs are still not optimal for practical real-world applications. Their limited mobility in comparison to UAVs for ISR operations, coupled with a mediocre payload capacity relative to traditional UGVs, results in a platform that have disadvantages from both categories. In my opinion, QUGVs are primarily beneficial for educational purposes or just a show or a ‘wow’ reaction from those outside the robotics field. For example, Boston Dynamics cannot descend stairs in reverse last time I checked, while Unitree tend to overheat rapidly, with internal components that are susceptible to failure, and they are constructed with cheap components, such as three Jetson Nanos, rather than a single, more robust SBC, etc.
You're not wrong, but probably applying a critique which is irrelevant to the product under discussion. I don't think potential owners of 'robotic pets' will be making purchases based on maximising payload capacity, or practical real-world applications.
You are not wrong either, hence why I said
> QUGVs are primarily beneficial for educational purposes…
But it still beneficial to give a heads up for anyone before investing efforts and time that QUGVs are simply for these purposes, which is something you can see in some comments in here, personally, I would invest those efforts in drones but YMMV.
> QUGVs are primarily beneficial for educational purposes…
But it still beneficial to give a heads up for anyone before investing efforts and time that QUGVs are simply for these purposes, which is something you can see in some comments in here, personally, I would invest those efforts in drones but YMMV.
What efforts are you saying are poorly invested?
Objective: robot cat.
Output: robot cat.
Seems like everyone is getting what they want and you're just inserting a random pedantic critique.
Objective: robot cat.
Output: robot cat.
Seems like everyone is getting what they want and you're just inserting a random pedantic critique.
Peak HN
"I want to build a robot cat"
"What you really want to build is a drone because quadrupeds cannot go downstairs backwards"
"I want to build a robot cat"
"What you really want to build is a drone because quadrupeds cannot go downstairs backwards"
It's a Stack Overflow overflow...
Most analog cats won't descend stairs in reverse or carry loads either.
Tell that to my cat, at least if you consider anything up to the size of a small pillow a load!
Well, not when we want them to...
They can manoeuvre uneven terrain in areas where UAVs and wheeled UGVs are unsuitable though. Combined with UAV capabilities, it could be a very capable mapping or ISR tool in places like caves, or following earthquakes. The ‘hopping’ type in particular might be particularly valuable for lunar and asteroid mapping.
Humans bred cats for thousands of years for utility that had nothing to do with "payload capacity"
You think these robots are good for pest control ?
I think I saw that black mirror episode.
Yes... if we breed robot cats for thousands of years.
I would buy THAT for a dollar!
> Their limited mobility in comparison to UAVs for ISR operations
UAVs are highly susceptible to wind and drift, especially indoors with no GPS, and while DJIs collision avoidance is pretty good, any land based vehicle won't (fatally) crash if it touches anything.
UAVs are highly susceptible to wind and drift, especially indoors with no GPS, and while DJIs collision avoidance is pretty good, any land based vehicle won't (fatally) crash if it touches anything.
"Hopping drones", with movement akin to the hunting method of robins [0], will be used as a kind of living minefield in military operations. When anti-air is absent/suppressed, they will engage in high energy aerial maneuvers to cover as much ground, with as little contest, as possible. Once emplaced, they will lower their signature and engage in low energy defensive fire/ambush behaviors, to hold territory.
The critical consideration is that movement is dangerous, under conditions of pervasive battlefield surveillance, so when it is possible at all it must be exploited to its full potential, and thus can be conducted via an expensive process such as flight. In turn, to make movement dangerous to the enemy, one must make terrain frictionful to cross, through high lethality, low detectability assets, of which mines are the paradigmatic example.
[0] Brief bursts of flight interwoven between slow stalking of different ground locations for worms.
The critical consideration is that movement is dangerous, under conditions of pervasive battlefield surveillance, so when it is possible at all it must be exploited to its full potential, and thus can be conducted via an expensive process such as flight. In turn, to make movement dangerous to the enemy, one must make terrain frictionful to cross, through high lethality, low detectability assets, of which mines are the paradigmatic example.
[0] Brief bursts of flight interwoven between slow stalking of different ground locations for worms.
I hadn't thought of that, but it's terrifying. Like, far more nightmare-inducing than a conventional minefield.
How would you counter? Up-armoured bipedal robots with roughly human-shaped heat-signatures is the only thing that would defeat easily-implemented automatic counter-measures. But if the "minefield" is under surveillance + command and control, then that goes right out the window. Besides, the cost-benefit (let alone logistics) is firmly in favor of the defender's "robins". I suspect attackers will try jamming signals and then send in the meatshields.
Ugh.
How would you counter? Up-armoured bipedal robots with roughly human-shaped heat-signatures is the only thing that would defeat easily-implemented automatic counter-measures. But if the "minefield" is under surveillance + command and control, then that goes right out the window. Besides, the cost-benefit (let alone logistics) is firmly in favor of the defender's "robins". I suspect attackers will try jamming signals and then send in the meatshields.
Ugh.
Why, a "vacuum bomb", that is, a large-volume detonation of combustible spray, could give a serious kick to anything and everything within the area.
(If not that, a small nuke can generate enough heat and gamma rays to burn everything near the point of the blast, but the military escalation hasn't reached this point just yet.)
(If not that, a small nuke can generate enough heat and gamma rays to burn everything near the point of the blast, but the military escalation hasn't reached this point just yet.)
Not a bad thought. (Your first one: if we're throwing nukes around I suspect minefields will be the last of our worries.) The complicating factor would be how widely they can be dispersed, and how quickly they can converge. It might take more vacuum bombs than is feasible to clear even a small area.
I had another thought. There's a tried and tested method for knocking down bird-sized moving objects. So, what about shotguns? (Yes, I know they're currently banned for combat use. I think something like this would override that, at least de facto.)
I had another thought. There's a tried and tested method for knocking down bird-sized moving objects. So, what about shotguns? (Yes, I know they're currently banned for combat use. I think something like this would override that, at least de facto.)
> How would you counter?
With something cheaper that you spread around. Drone grenades?
With something cheaper that you spread around. Drone grenades?
That’s because you are not following the industry; denied-GNSS navigation has been a thing for a while. I have also seen several drone designs that can attach themselves to the silo steel wall from the inside for inspection jobs. UAVs aren’t perfect; their biggest drawback is the battery endurance before jumping to an airplane scale, but they are effective, efficient, and reliable for all their applications, even more than UGVs (UGVs have been used in real-life applications since the 90s or even before, yet drones took over in the last decade). QUGVs, on the other hand, are merely a toy, for education, or marketing purposes.
The only purpose I can see for QUGVs, or even UGVs in the future, is interoperability with drones, but definitely, drones are and will be the dominant force in the field for the future.
If you're looking for a visually appealing design, then it's hard to beat a real cat. The internet agrees.
With large language models, it should be possible to make robot "pets" that can talk. You won't fit a big graphics card into one of these things at the current SOTA, but you don't need to. It would just need to be internet connected and calling APIs.
Yeah - and now the APIs can do vision too.
About time to build Teddy from the movie "AI".
About time to build Teddy from the movie "AI".
I am eager to see a wheeled car like that support an [old] mobile phone over and is cheaper than USD 30? Good for education. The "prototype" via Lego Mindstorms is more expensive.
I think much of the cost is a good motor now? There were startups trying to make this but I think they are closed [1].
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20190104173241/http://www.simple...
I think much of the cost is a good motor now? There were startups trying to make this but I think they are closed [1].
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20190104173241/http://www.simple...
FYI, Romotive became Zipline, and is now (one of the) most successful drone delivery companies. It's a wild pivot story.
It's amazing what's available commercially right now. So quick after Boston Dynamics shown and sold theirs for the first time.
https://unitreerobotics.net/robotdog/unitree-go1-pro/
You could get a decent computer and a robot dog for a price of Mac Pro.
https://unitreerobotics.net/robotdog/unitree-go1-pro/
You could get a decent computer and a robot dog for a price of Mac Pro.
Super neat. I am slowly trying to get my kid into the space so I will be watching this one.
Incidentally, if anyone can share similiar efforts or kid ready sets, I would love to hear about it.
Incidentally, if anyone can share similiar efforts or kid ready sets, I would love to hear about it.
Depends on their age and what level, there are “toys” you can buy with some visual programming like DJI robomaster, or advanced ones that actually use real lidar and stereo cam with ROS like AgileX limo (original price is $1000 btw, if a reseller is selling it for more they are just gauging the price), and also there are DIY ones that require 3D printing and such.
Ok. That is cool. You were not kidding about gauging though. Geez. I might need to shop around and hope I can grab one at a reasonable price. Amusingly, kid got super excited about the arm.
I am starting to think we may be able to get into this together.
I am starting to think we may be able to get into this together.
What are the pros of this compared to the seemingly cheaper Sunfounder PiDog? The latter seems to be a bit better wrt sensors and the like.
Cute until someone straps a gun to it
So, just like a normal pet?
More disposable and with better aim. Seriously this is a huge problem. It took no time at all for Ukraine to weaponize commercial UAVs. An open source mobile gunning platform? Throw in LTE and some solar panels and this thing is an assassin's dream. Could be used anonymously. Could sit in wait for 5 years I'd wager
It's slow, palm-sized and worse than a normal RC car in pretty much every way. This is not the mobile gunning platform you're worried about
What I need is a solar powered turtle that can silently mow my lawn.
Ä-Ä-Äye kän h-h-h-äz chee-chee-zz-zz-byrrgr-r-r-r-r?
>Customizable parts. Open choice of components.
He says, gesturing at the robot's groin.
He says, gesturing at the robot's groin.
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Both the website and the project's Github repository loudly trumpet that they are "open source" next to photos of proprietary hardware.
In https://github.com/PetoiCamp/OpenCat-Old/issues/7, the creator admits that the "nyboard" (https://docs.petoi.com/nyboard/overview) at the heart of their robots is derived from Arduino, but insists that they don't need to comply with the licensing terms for derivative boards (https://support.arduino.cc/hc/en-us/articles/4415094490770-L...) because Arduino is unlikely to sue them.
In https://github.com/PetoiCamp/OpenCat-Old/issues/7, the creator admits that the "nyboard" (https://docs.petoi.com/nyboard/overview) at the heart of their robots is derived from Arduino, but insists that they don't need to comply with the licensing terms for derivative boards (https://support.arduino.cc/hc/en-us/articles/4415094490770-L...) because Arduino is unlikely to sue them.
It's unfortunate that the hardware isn't open source, but I think he's technically right that his board is not an Arduino derivative from a legal perspective.
"I initially built the prototype with an Arduino board. Later I got my friends designing the NyBoard, a customized PCB based on ATmega328P. We will release the BiBoard, another board based on ESP32. They both support the Arduino IDE but are not using Arduino's brand"
"I initially built the prototype with an Arduino board. Later I got my friends designing the NyBoard, a customized PCB based on ATmega328P. We will release the BiBoard, another board based on ESP32. They both support the Arduino IDE but are not using Arduino's brand"
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Not “open” like “open source”. “Open” like “OpenAI”
“As we get closer to building AI, it will make sense to start being less open. The Open in openAI means that everyone should benefit from the fruits of AI after it’s built, but it's totally OK to not share the science. — Ilya Sutskever https://openai.com/blog/openai-elon-musk
“As we get closer to building AI, it will make sense to start being less open. The Open in openAI means that everyone should benefit from the fruits of AI after it’s built, but it's totally OK to not share the science. — Ilya Sutskever https://openai.com/blog/openai-elon-musk
It's standard business tactics to stretch the use of words until they are no longer recognisable.
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And that’s why is beyond should call them out about their blatant lying instead of shrug it off
Ah so we have free as in speech, free as in beer, and free as in shoplifted.
Presented with a signup popup modal before I could even scroll down to read the first paragraph. I get you want engagement, but that's too aggressive for me. Page closed.
Do you feel like this focus on minutia versus substance has led you to miss otherwise insightful content?
Not OP, but I do the same, and no, not in the least. The amount of information available, even filtering for the best of the best by whatever heuristic I can choose, is vastly larger than my ability to process as a single person.
If anything, I've found that the faster I reject due to dark patterns, the better off and more informed I am. If something is truly worth learning about, it will bubble up again elsewhere soon enough.
If anything, I've found that the faster I reject due to dark patterns, the better off and more informed I am. If something is truly worth learning about, it will bubble up again elsewhere soon enough.
I feel, personally, that 'signs of quality' are one of the best metrics an individual can have for making a decision to spend time on something.
Making a judgement on what to spend time on is literally the thing that allows for it to happen. Otherwise my time would be spent on shit.
Making a judgement on what to spend time on is literally the thing that allows for it to happen. Otherwise my time would be spent on shit.
Do you feel that a focus on dismissing and defending dark patterns is appropriate or constructive? What world are you helping construct, and what values are you supporting? Are you aiming for a world where open hardware becomes dominant and beneficial?
I feel the point was a valid red flag. This org may be more interested in marketing itself than it is in supporting open source.
Looking at their repos, we find that the designs for their robots are not public. This company is using the open core / artificial scarcity model for their hardware, while presenting themselves as a fully open source organization.
This is an organization exploiting open source for its marketing, without supporting open hardware.
This is important: Contributors looking for a real open hardware project to work on should consider looking elsewhere. If they contribute to this project, they would be contributing to a partially proprietary ecosystem. This tends to compromise the promise of Open hardware, which includes low cost replication and iteration on hardware designs.
Tldr: when an open source organization practices dark patterns, people need to hear about it. It's not a minute fact- it's a major compromise of Open source values and outcomes.
I feel the point was a valid red flag. This org may be more interested in marketing itself than it is in supporting open source.
Looking at their repos, we find that the designs for their robots are not public. This company is using the open core / artificial scarcity model for their hardware, while presenting themselves as a fully open source organization.
This is an organization exploiting open source for its marketing, without supporting open hardware.
This is important: Contributors looking for a real open hardware project to work on should consider looking elsewhere. If they contribute to this project, they would be contributing to a partially proprietary ecosystem. This tends to compromise the promise of Open hardware, which includes low cost replication and iteration on hardware designs.
Tldr: when an open source organization practices dark patterns, people need to hear about it. It's not a minute fact- it's a major compromise of Open source values and outcomes.
No. There's so much content fighting for my (limited) attention that there is no loss to ignore user-hostile sites.
I instinctively closed the popup, so I have no idea what I just agreed to...
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Real pets looking nervously around…
In seriousness this is really cool! I wish I had this in school for robotics learning.
In seriousness this is really cool! I wish I had this in school for robotics learning.
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The price to adopt a real cat is ~100usd in most states. Why not just get a cat? This projects like 300usd.
Total cost of ownership of a cat is considerably more than $300, unless you plan to make your cat hunt its own food, fail to license it, and never take it to the vet.
But live cat ships with much better software. It’s not close.
I’m a pretty big fan of my live cat and the software she shipped with, I’m not interested in building a robot cat, and I think TCO is the wrong criterion to base this decision on in the first place—but a cat costs real money to take care of correctly, and people need to consider TCO if they adopt an animal.
But it's impossible to control...
A robot cat would be impossible to control too if you programmed it correctly!
And it never destroys anything.
So we already known the TCO of the product and the TCO of a cat, and we know the product will never cause damage due to a battery fire for example.
sigh if you want to build a robot, build one. Quit calling them cats and dogs. The marketing is cheezy.
sigh if you want to build a robot, build one. Quit calling them cats and dogs. The marketing is cheezy.
Because when you take a real cat apart to see how it works you can never get everything back inside and it never works quite right again.
Real cats eat and shit and need medical help at times, while this doesn’t.
Depending on where you are you're can do the former outside, with you feeding in the off-season and that, and the latter is perspective: you don't _need_ more than vaccinations and depending on how they eventually end up, possibly euthanization.
But those shouldn't be that expensive, really.
Anti-suffering advocates caused the process of slaughter for general farmed meat animals to get researched a lot, so that now we know fairly well how to kill a tame animal without causing suffering.
IIRC the one requiring the least skill and least likely to accidentally cause great suffering is the "inert gas asphyxiation", i.e., displacing the air in the poorly ventilated space the animal is in with commonly nitrogen, until the Oxygen concentration drops so low the brain just passes out.
We know from many pilots who fucked up how humans experience oxygen deprivation to the extend that your copilot already passed out. The become loopy, incoherent, but notably not with memories of when asked during it that they feel bad/suffering.
And well, even when liquid the nitrogen sufficient to flood an their normal room would only cost like 1~5$. And it carries reasonably in basically just 5~10l versions of those fact insulated tea/coffee bottles for being on the go and having hot tea when making a stop after say 5 hours.
So yeah, essentially, it shouldn't cost more than 200~300$ during the entire lifetime to have appropriate medical supervision for a normal cat. More than that is due to either greedy vets or cat owners who spend a lot on fancy healthcare to get a few extra years of lifespan for their cat. But from a pure financial POV, most of that isn't worth it: generic cats are very not hard to breed/multiply.
And well, even when liquid the nitrogen sufficient to flood an their normal room would only cost like 1~5$. And it carries reasonably in basically just 5~10l versions of those fact insulated tea/coffee bottles for being on the go and having hot tea when making a stop after say 5 hours.
So yeah, essentially, it shouldn't cost more than 200~300$ during the entire lifetime to have appropriate medical supervision for a normal cat. More than that is due to either greedy vets or cat owners who spend a lot on fancy healthcare to get a few extra years of lifespan for their cat. But from a pure financial POV, most of that isn't worth it: generic cats are very not hard to breed/multiply.
Who in their right mind thinks that buying a pet for a few months and euthanizing it once you're bored of it is a better idea than buying a robot cat? This type of thinking is why the shelters are full of unwanted animals.
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which, That medical help can get expensive. Not that I expect robot cat technician appointments are.gonna be cheap either.
Superior interfaces.
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