Having real trouble hiring coders...
15 comments
Big ups to the author of this post for getting me to read what is essentially a job posting.
Am I the only person who cringes at the word "coder"? For some odd reason, I've never liked being referred to as a "coder", particularly when the word is preceded by "my".
Just pay craigslist their fee, and put up an ad. Problem solved. I'm disappointed that your spam made it through to HN, but am glad to see the very on-target comments it has generated.
Also making a snap judgment that someone under the pressure of an interview situation is "boring" is probably a mistake. Sounds like there is something else going on. The fact that you call developers "coders" is pretty damning of your attitude, imho.
Also making a snap judgment that someone under the pressure of an interview situation is "boring" is probably a mistake. Sounds like there is something else going on. The fact that you call developers "coders" is pretty damning of your attitude, imho.
cough you're showing ignorance
They want a local resource. In sydney. There's maybe 1 or 2 (if that) legitimate jobs posted on sydney CL on a daily basis. Not everyone lives in SF!
They want a local resource. In sydney. There's maybe 1 or 2 (if that) legitimate jobs posted on sydney CL on a daily basis. Not everyone lives in SF!
Oh, right, because HN is local to Sydney. How ignorant of me to not know that.
If the programmer has "carte blanche", why are you restricting them to PHP?
People tend to say things because they sound cool, not because they mean them. (Do I mean this? I'm not sure!)
ditto that. this is probably the wrong crowd to be recruiting php coders from.
Perhaps we can stop the language flaming. I build my stuff in a combination of PHP, C++ and javascript on a LAMP stack. Feel no need to justify it to people who aren't making architectural decisions.
i don't see any flaming here, just a misdirected appeal. i'm not arguing people's use of php, i'm just saying there aren't many of that type of people in this particular crowd.
Nah, there are a reasonably good number of people here who know PHP.
> if you're a PHP coder
I think I see your problem.
A good programmer can write PHP; but a programmer who only knows PHP is not good.
I think I see your problem.
A good programmer can write PHP; but a programmer who only knows PHP is not good.
What about you is different, what makes a job with you not feel like a job? What is your culture like? ("not boring" is probably the wrong answer) What gives your company personality? What would the person get to work on? and why is it interesting?
I looked at the website and it didn't really grab my attention.
What a lot of people seem to forget when recruiting is that you often have to sell your company and the position just as if you were selling anything else. Companies with well known brands have the advantage of a known culture (most of the time) or simply just brand awareness, which they leverage to get quality applications (or at least more of them). Startups and small to midsize companies don't have that advantage. So, if you want the best talent, you have to sell your company like you would sell your product. Undirected marketing of your company & jobs will usually produce fairly random response.
A very well read book in the HR/Recruiting community is called "Hire With Your Head". I recommend anyone that who needs to hire read it. The best takeaway quote...
"Companies need to move away form a classified ad mentality of listing boring, hard-to-find jobs and, instead, adopt a consumer marketing approach to advertising" ~Lou Adler, Hire With Your Head
I looked at the website and it didn't really grab my attention.
What a lot of people seem to forget when recruiting is that you often have to sell your company and the position just as if you were selling anything else. Companies with well known brands have the advantage of a known culture (most of the time) or simply just brand awareness, which they leverage to get quality applications (or at least more of them). Startups and small to midsize companies don't have that advantage. So, if you want the best talent, you have to sell your company like you would sell your product. Undirected marketing of your company & jobs will usually produce fairly random response.
A very well read book in the HR/Recruiting community is called "Hire With Your Head". I recommend anyone that who needs to hire read it. The best takeaway quote...
"Companies need to move away form a classified ad mentality of listing boring, hard-to-find jobs and, instead, adopt a consumer marketing approach to advertising" ~Lou Adler, Hire With Your Head
> Some background: we're launching a number of built-from-scratch systems on a LAMP stack, that use a number of web APIs. Whoever gets the job will have CLOSE TO carte blanche to build the system however they like, usign whatever frameworks or code base they are comfortable with.
You've already settled on PHP, however. So you're longer giving anybody a "CARTE" blanche and it's no longer "built from scratch". False advertising?
If you're looking for "PHP coders", you're in for a disappointment. You should hire great programmers who can also code PHP - and you would have to convince them why your idea is so fascinating/unique that it would be okay to write in a more or less boring language which has a kiddie/toy reputation.
Yahoo did this by not specifically listing PHP in their ads and bringing in strong Java/C/C++ programmers and then teaching them PHP on the job (or at least that's what they used to do for the non-UX centric parts).
You can find great web-developers and designers who are primarily PHP people, but afaik smarter coders tend to shun it.
You've already settled on PHP, however. So you're longer giving anybody a "CARTE" blanche and it's no longer "built from scratch". False advertising?
If you're looking for "PHP coders", you're in for a disappointment. You should hire great programmers who can also code PHP - and you would have to convince them why your idea is so fascinating/unique that it would be okay to write in a more or less boring language which has a kiddie/toy reputation.
Yahoo did this by not specifically listing PHP in their ads and bringing in strong Java/C/C++ programmers and then teaching them PHP on the job (or at least that's what they used to do for the non-UX centric parts).
You can find great web-developers and designers who are primarily PHP people, but afaik smarter coders tend to shun it.
I recently offered to hire and manage three local C programmers in Cebu, Philippines for the company that owns the web scripting software I've been using for more than a decade. My offer would have cost them about 2/3 of the cost to hire one intermediate level C programmer in the USA -- yet with my offer they would have had a 4-man team developing their newly purchased software instead of only one.
They could have made substantial progress these past 5 months, but instead they have apparently made no progress whatsoever, and they are still wasting time trying to hire one C programmer in a little midwest city where one of the owners lives. I guess five months of wasted time with no progress to speak of is something that does not bother them very much -- but I think it should, because the more time they waste not hiring a programmer and failing to make some real progress, the bigger and stronger their competition grows.
I ran my own outsource programming business here for several years ... and while it is sometimes a challenge to 'train' a skilled programmer from scratch over here, there are so many who already have the requisite skills that I find it amusing that problems like yours actually exist. I mean, what's wrong with hiring an outsource programmer and getting the jobs done? Especially if the programmer you eventually hire is going to be given as much autonomy as you claim?
I just don't see why every person that's contributing to a startup company needs to be part of the 'local startup family', that's all. It seems to me that sometimes it just makes more sense to get the work started and finished -- one way or another -- even of you have to change your approach to make it happen.
They could have made substantial progress these past 5 months, but instead they have apparently made no progress whatsoever, and they are still wasting time trying to hire one C programmer in a little midwest city where one of the owners lives. I guess five months of wasted time with no progress to speak of is something that does not bother them very much -- but I think it should, because the more time they waste not hiring a programmer and failing to make some real progress, the bigger and stronger their competition grows.
I ran my own outsource programming business here for several years ... and while it is sometimes a challenge to 'train' a skilled programmer from scratch over here, there are so many who already have the requisite skills that I find it amusing that problems like yours actually exist. I mean, what's wrong with hiring an outsource programmer and getting the jobs done? Especially if the programmer you eventually hire is going to be given as much autonomy as you claim?
I just don't see why every person that's contributing to a startup company needs to be part of the 'local startup family', that's all. It seems to me that sometimes it just makes more sense to get the work started and finished -- one way or another -- even of you have to change your approach to make it happen.
From what I can tell happened to past and present clients of mine, there are plenty of bad programmers all over the place local and worldwide, and throwing more people at the job never fixed anything. If said company is having a hard time hiring a programmer but you have at least one available now meeting the exact same criteria they want, then that company really needs to rethink what they're doing. But having a 4-person team when a single one can do is overkill.
Also on another personal note, my startup has one person who lives across the country (the US, so it's a big country ;) ) and I'm not sure how well that will work out. We've yet to even meet up in person for a drink or anything, and we can't hang out together to code, and I can't easily go over there to kick his ass (figuratively speaking) or he mine when necessary.
In comparison, I pair program with my boyfriend occasionally when stuck on something or working on a project euler problem, and we both do our individual work near each other quite often and the interaction can be pretty useful. It's not entirely the same as IRC or videochatting, which I've done on one project where I worked with people halfway across the world. But again, this is my personal preference. I'd like to hang out with the people I work with, because strictly work can get sort of dull.
Also on another personal note, my startup has one person who lives across the country (the US, so it's a big country ;) ) and I'm not sure how well that will work out. We've yet to even meet up in person for a drink or anything, and we can't hang out together to code, and I can't easily go over there to kick his ass (figuratively speaking) or he mine when necessary.
In comparison, I pair program with my boyfriend occasionally when stuck on something or working on a project euler problem, and we both do our individual work near each other quite often and the interaction can be pretty useful. It's not entirely the same as IRC or videochatting, which I've done on one project where I worked with people halfway across the world. But again, this is my personal preference. I'd like to hang out with the people I work with, because strictly work can get sort of dull.
Are you (or your compatriots) active in the user community in Sydney? I've found that's a great place to find good developers.
Otherwise, write a job posting that YOU would be excited about answering, and post it in a few places.
Otherwise, write a job posting that YOU would be excited about answering, and post it in a few places.
You are pushing all the wrong buttons!
If you want as much control as you've already declared then I am afraid you will struggle to find the guy you want, they are fed up of working for people that make the wrong decisions for them and leave them with the mess to clean up.
Listen careful to all this feedback and maybe you can either change the job so that you genuinely do offer something interesting to the guy you want or temper your ambitions to find the competent PHP you want.
If you want as much control as you've already declared then I am afraid you will struggle to find the guy you want, they are fed up of working for people that make the wrong decisions for them and leave them with the mess to clean up.
Listen careful to all this feedback and maybe you can either change the job so that you genuinely do offer something interesting to the guy you want or temper your ambitions to find the competent PHP you want.
you do realize PHP is the most boring, conventional, middle of the road way BDC's get into open source stacks. Why don't you just post for J2EE engineers? Other than the obvious fact that they will probably only know Java you are going to get the same type of person.
If you want interesting ask for interesting, not safe. Ask for people using python/ruby and then let them use that.
If you want interesting ask for interesting, not safe. Ask for people using python/ruby and then let them use that.
There's nothing wrong with PHP as a tool and if a developer wants to make the judgement call to use it (for whatever reason), they should. The parent, however, is up-front stating that they will have to use PHP which is an unhealthy approach when you're looking for somebody to build something from scratch.
And this may be totally wrong (and I very seriously hope it is, as I see too many of these) - but this again sounds like a case of business/web-design people hoping they can hire hackers to execute on their 'wonderful and unique' idea. These don't work not because there's anything wrong with being a business person or a web-designer (quite the opposite, they're crucial) but because you can't tell how good or bad a certain idea is unless you begin executing on it yourself.
[Edit: looks you've got a fairly interesting idea and an established business. Don't kill it through turning away of enthusiastic/skilled hackers - since you mention APIs, why should you be a one language shop? The beauty of web service is that they're fairly language/technology agnostic]
And this may be totally wrong (and I very seriously hope it is, as I see too many of these) - but this again sounds like a case of business/web-design people hoping they can hire hackers to execute on their 'wonderful and unique' idea. These don't work not because there's anything wrong with being a business person or a web-designer (quite the opposite, they're crucial) but because you can't tell how good or bad a certain idea is unless you begin executing on it yourself.
[Edit: looks you've got a fairly interesting idea and an established business. Don't kill it through turning away of enthusiastic/skilled hackers - since you mention APIs, why should you be a one language shop? The beauty of web service is that they're fairly language/technology agnostic]
"There's nothing wrong with PHP as a tool"
I think there are some things wrong with it, actually. Probably you can write good code with it, but I don't think it is encouraged, and it is very easy to screw up.
I think there are some things wrong with it, actually. Probably you can write good code with it, but I don't think it is encouraged, and it is very easy to screw up.
Probably you can write good code with it, but I don't think it is encouraged, and it is very easy to screw up.
I don't think so. PHP just doesn't have the right abstractions needed to create truly good code. Having some OO support is better than having none at all, but it's clear that the authors of PHP never bothered to try any object system other than Java's -- easily the worst object system of any language. (Also, I would love to know why a language with no type checking has Java-style interfaces. What is the point?)
Combine that with the lack of anonymous functions, closures, continuations, lexically-scoped variables, and so on, and you are stuck compromising your design to get something that is actually implementable. It is sort of like a brilliant novelist that is used to writing with his laptop, but is given some napkins and a dull pencil instead. Since he's a great author, he'll probably make something good -- but just give him his laptop back already.
I don't think so. PHP just doesn't have the right abstractions needed to create truly good code. Having some OO support is better than having none at all, but it's clear that the authors of PHP never bothered to try any object system other than Java's -- easily the worst object system of any language. (Also, I would love to know why a language with no type checking has Java-style interfaces. What is the point?)
Combine that with the lack of anonymous functions, closures, continuations, lexically-scoped variables, and so on, and you are stuck compromising your design to get something that is actually implementable. It is sort of like a brilliant novelist that is used to writing with his laptop, but is given some napkins and a dull pencil instead. Since he's a great author, he'll probably make something good -- but just give him his laptop back already.
I was trying to be diplomatic - actually I personally despise PHP, but I acknowledge that some pretty big sites have been built with it. Also, it still seems to be the most productive language, which is odd, given it's crappyness. Try to find a popular blogging system or CMS that is not written in PHP (I know there are some, but somehow the PHP ones always have more traction).
That's because PHP is installed on a huge number of web servers out of the box, and thus at the disposal of nearly any Joe Blow who uses shared hosting.
PHP has done one thing right in it's history; they made it extremely easy to deploy.
PHP has done one thing right in it's history; they made it extremely easy to deploy.
blog software: Moveable Type, LiveJournal.
CMS software: WebGUI
and many sites like Vox, TypePad, Slashdot, ...
As a tool for very specific projects - projects which are generally web projects that will never go beyond a front-end layer and require much complexity in the backend pieces. However you have to know in advance that you are writing a project that is specifically like that - or you can write zend extensions in C or use something like Thrift to talk to non-PHP back-end pieces.
(My own preference is not to use PHP whenever possible for personal projects - but I run my own servers and am fairly familiar with mod_perl, FastCGI and Apache internals).
(My own preference is not to use PHP whenever possible for personal projects - but I run my own servers and am fairly familiar with mod_perl, FastCGI and Apache internals).
Out of curiosity, does anyone use Ruby who doesn't use Rails?
In this economy, there are a lot of people just happy to have a job. I would recommend you try to get the passive candidates:
http://jobs.37signals.com/
http://snaptalent.com/
http://hiddennetwork.com/
http://authenticjobs.com/
You can't always expect the best programmers to come to you. You need to go out, find them, and give them incentive to work with you.
http://jobs.37signals.com/
http://snaptalent.com/
http://hiddennetwork.com/
http://authenticjobs.com/
You can't always expect the best programmers to come to you. You need to go out, find them, and give them incentive to work with you.
If you're building from scratch, is there any particular reason you have to go with a LAMP stack? Any reason not to go with Python, ROR, Java-type stacks? If you expanded it a bit, you might have better luck...
pay more, or stop complaining. Your work culture is not as cool as you think, I guarantee it.
Some background: we're launching a number of built-from-scratch systems on a LAMP stack, that use a number of web APIs. Whoever gets the job will have CLOSE TO carte blanche to build the system however they like, usign whatever frameworks or code base they are comfortable with.
So if you're a PHP coder based in Sydney (Australia), whose keen to run your own projects (which pretty much comes with complete control over how you do that), and want to work in an office in Bondi Junction (above Westfield) that is small and happy, drop us a line: http://www.excitecorporation.com/contact.html