Prolonged Partial Sleep Deprivation for a Job (The worst year of my life [so far])
55 comments
I have DSPS as well and regular employment is impossible. I do consulting from home. It's not perfect, clients don't like to have to deal with my schedule, but it works.
So that's what I would tell you: forget about regular employment and find consulting/contracting jobs.
Oh, and I don't know the details obviously, but try to get back with your girlfriend - 8 years - you have a chance I think, she almost certainly misses you too. Show her this thread maybe :)
DSPS is not cureable. It can sometimes be managed with a lot of work, but realistically it rarely succeeds. You have it, so you have to manage your employment to work with it.
You're lucky to be a programmer. In the olden days I guess you would be a craftsman.
If you need a place to start, use one of those online sites where you bid on work - the pay is lousy, but maybe you'll find a decent client, or referrals.
Also small businesses are always looking for contractors - they like it because they don't have to deal with payroll, or even an office. Start local - just walk up main street and poke your nose in each building. Leave a card. (Well I don't know what you do exactly - but I assume you can change if you have to, to match what small businesses are looking for.)
So that's what I would tell you: forget about regular employment and find consulting/contracting jobs.
Oh, and I don't know the details obviously, but try to get back with your girlfriend - 8 years - you have a chance I think, she almost certainly misses you too. Show her this thread maybe :)
DSPS is not cureable. It can sometimes be managed with a lot of work, but realistically it rarely succeeds. You have it, so you have to manage your employment to work with it.
You're lucky to be a programmer. In the olden days I guess you would be a craftsman.
If you need a place to start, use one of those online sites where you bid on work - the pay is lousy, but maybe you'll find a decent client, or referrals.
Also small businesses are always looking for contractors - they like it because they don't have to deal with payroll, or even an office. Start local - just walk up main street and poke your nose in each building. Leave a card. (Well I don't know what you do exactly - but I assume you can change if you have to, to match what small businesses are looking for.)
those online sites where you bid for work? e-lance and guru.com? they are about the worst place I can think of to look for contract work. Craigslist. Seriously. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/cpg I don't care if you are in the bay area or not. you get plenty of 'work from home' gigs there (and most of 'em are posted in the san francisco craigslist even if the client is in New York.)
Oh, and another thing; if you do get an on-site contracting gig (this is how I pay for my business) remember that most on-site contractors are basically people who were not skilled enough to get the job full-time. If you are shockingly better than the other contractors on the team, they often put up with a less-reliable schedule. Oh, and developing a reputation for honesty on your timesheets is also recommended. The body shop is going to want you to just put all eights, but if you are good, and the client notices that you are good (and that you are honest on your timesheets) they will go to bat for you. You may technically work for the body shop, but the only people you really need to like you is the client.
(If you can contract without a body shop and still get a good rate, shoot me an e-mail and explain how that works.)
Oh, and another thing; if you do get an on-site contracting gig (this is how I pay for my business) remember that most on-site contractors are basically people who were not skilled enough to get the job full-time. If you are shockingly better than the other contractors on the team, they often put up with a less-reliable schedule. Oh, and developing a reputation for honesty on your timesheets is also recommended. The body shop is going to want you to just put all eights, but if you are good, and the client notices that you are good (and that you are honest on your timesheets) they will go to bat for you. You may technically work for the body shop, but the only people you really need to like you is the client.
(If you can contract without a body shop and still get a good rate, shoot me an e-mail and explain how that works.)
If there is a response to the body shop question, rather than just share it with lsc, please post it for all.
Getting work as a contractor isn't too awful hard, especially if you are skilled and can hold a meaningful conversation with another human.
Go to industry conferences. Shake hands. Let folks know that you are a software developer and love coding for folks. I'll bet that you end up after each conference with several people you can do contract work for.
Do great work and these folks will be telling their friends and you'll have more work heading your way than you know what to do with.
You might find that this condition is the best thing that happened to you. You work for yourself, on your own schedule, for folks that you truly like and work that you enjoy doing!
Go to industry conferences. Shake hands. Let folks know that you are a software developer and love coding for folks. I'll bet that you end up after each conference with several people you can do contract work for.
Do great work and these folks will be telling their friends and you'll have more work heading your way than you know what to do with.
You might find that this condition is the best thing that happened to you. You work for yourself, on your own schedule, for folks that you truly like and work that you enjoy doing!
Force yourself to get up at a constant hour (e.g. 7am) and go to bed at a constant hour (e.g. 11pm for 8 hours of sleep) every day even if you're not tired.
Don't go out clubbing/drinking/etc for a few weeks until you have this sorted out.
I have the same delayed sleep pattern, but this works fine, sure-fire, every time.
Another few tips:
1) Stop staring at computer monitors for about 1 hour before sleep-time
2) Try reading a not-too-exciting fiction book for 30 minutes before sleep-time (That's from 10:30, not from 11). Big classics (Dickens, Tolstoy, etc) do well for this.
3) Don't do anything in bed other than prepare to sleep and sleep.
I can guarantee that you'll start feeling really tired around 10:30 and fall asleep like a baby by 11:15 within 2 weeks - probably even faster.
Just make sure you stick to those times as if your life depended on them. In bed by 11, out of bed at 7.
Don't go out clubbing/drinking/etc for a few weeks until you have this sorted out.
I have the same delayed sleep pattern, but this works fine, sure-fire, every time.
Another few tips:
1) Stop staring at computer monitors for about 1 hour before sleep-time
2) Try reading a not-too-exciting fiction book for 30 minutes before sleep-time (That's from 10:30, not from 11). Big classics (Dickens, Tolstoy, etc) do well for this.
3) Don't do anything in bed other than prepare to sleep and sleep.
I can guarantee that you'll start feeling really tired around 10:30 and fall asleep like a baby by 11:15 within 2 weeks - probably even faster.
Just make sure you stick to those times as if your life depended on them. In bed by 11, out of bed at 7.
I also have sleep problems: though not so extreme (I sleep fitfully and often cannot sleep for a whole night - maybe once or twice a fortnight).
The advice from swombat is the BEST you will ever get.
DSPS is, as noted, incurable. However you can train your body to ignore it with serious discipline (or rather train your body to a decent sleep pattern). I'd hazard that your age (24 right?) is amplifying your symptoms/problems.
You only need 7hrs of sleep a night (some people can manage 6) to be rested: the key is getting some REM sleep in there (my main problem is that I sleep in 60-80 minute cycles and deep sleep usually doesnt start until 90mins into a cycle). If you sleep deeply when you DO sleep then you will probably be ok.
Have an extremely strict bed time schedule. So at 10 (perhaps) begin to wind down. Have a bath (I find this to be the best thing) for 20 mins. The sit and read a book (not in your bed) prefferably a boring one - I am hugely well read for my generation because of this :D. At 11 (dead on) lie down and dotn TRY to sleep. Relax and clear your mind - think of what your plan for the next day is. Build an itenary and imagine how the day will go. Whilst you do this breath very deeply. You should relax and fall asleep.
If you find that your still awake after 45mins (30mins is not unusual for the amount of time needed to fall asleep!) then get up, walk around gently for 10 mins (or read).Then try again.
In the morning have the alarm set for, say, 7am. When it goes up get up - no snuggling or whatever force yourself out of bed w/e. Then have a really good energy breakfast and do some exercise. This will clear the "sleepiness" out of you (which will make you feel sleep deprived when your not).
Other tips. Make sure you snack (healthily :D) through the day to keep energy levels up and your metabolism going. DO NOT eat a big meal any closer than 3hrs to your bed time (so if it is 11 then make sure dinner is well done by 8pm). Drink plenty (of water) through the day but avoid drinking it before bed time. Also avoid cafeine like the plague (this will keep you awake fort hours if you have even a slight sleep problem). You could try herbal remdies to help sleep in the evenings (I take some now and again when I cant relax) or eat foods like cheese etc. in small quantaties about an hr before bed.
It will take work and you might feel rotten for a week or so. But eventually your body will adapt to the correct sleep pattern.
Also get a second opinion: DSPS is often a "get out" clause for sleep conditions :) I was diagnosed with DSPS a couple of times before they got ot the bottom of it. My specific case is that I have sudden releases of seratonin in the brain (the stuff that chocolate and sex generates :)) so I go hyper for short spells - which wakes me up or keeps me awake. It does wonders for my creativity but can destroy sleep patterns :)
A lot of your issues are probably also down to being young (I am around the same age and a lot of my problems are gone now simply through discipline). Get rid of those and you will then have the core of your sleep problem laid out reayd to address :)
It will be tough - so good luck. But with a LOT of discipline you'll make it!
The advice from swombat is the BEST you will ever get.
DSPS is, as noted, incurable. However you can train your body to ignore it with serious discipline (or rather train your body to a decent sleep pattern). I'd hazard that your age (24 right?) is amplifying your symptoms/problems.
You only need 7hrs of sleep a night (some people can manage 6) to be rested: the key is getting some REM sleep in there (my main problem is that I sleep in 60-80 minute cycles and deep sleep usually doesnt start until 90mins into a cycle). If you sleep deeply when you DO sleep then you will probably be ok.
Have an extremely strict bed time schedule. So at 10 (perhaps) begin to wind down. Have a bath (I find this to be the best thing) for 20 mins. The sit and read a book (not in your bed) prefferably a boring one - I am hugely well read for my generation because of this :D. At 11 (dead on) lie down and dotn TRY to sleep. Relax and clear your mind - think of what your plan for the next day is. Build an itenary and imagine how the day will go. Whilst you do this breath very deeply. You should relax and fall asleep.
If you find that your still awake after 45mins (30mins is not unusual for the amount of time needed to fall asleep!) then get up, walk around gently for 10 mins (or read).Then try again.
In the morning have the alarm set for, say, 7am. When it goes up get up - no snuggling or whatever force yourself out of bed w/e. Then have a really good energy breakfast and do some exercise. This will clear the "sleepiness" out of you (which will make you feel sleep deprived when your not).
Other tips. Make sure you snack (healthily :D) through the day to keep energy levels up and your metabolism going. DO NOT eat a big meal any closer than 3hrs to your bed time (so if it is 11 then make sure dinner is well done by 8pm). Drink plenty (of water) through the day but avoid drinking it before bed time. Also avoid cafeine like the plague (this will keep you awake fort hours if you have even a slight sleep problem). You could try herbal remdies to help sleep in the evenings (I take some now and again when I cant relax) or eat foods like cheese etc. in small quantaties about an hr before bed.
It will take work and you might feel rotten for a week or so. But eventually your body will adapt to the correct sleep pattern.
Also get a second opinion: DSPS is often a "get out" clause for sleep conditions :) I was diagnosed with DSPS a couple of times before they got ot the bottom of it. My specific case is that I have sudden releases of seratonin in the brain (the stuff that chocolate and sex generates :)) so I go hyper for short spells - which wakes me up or keeps me awake. It does wonders for my creativity but can destroy sleep patterns :)
A lot of your issues are probably also down to being young (I am around the same age and a lot of my problems are gone now simply through discipline). Get rid of those and you will then have the core of your sleep problem laid out reayd to address :)
It will be tough - so good luck. But with a LOT of discipline you'll make it!
I don't have any sleep disorder and never really paid much attention to the duration of my sleep or the time to go to bed. After watching this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8 ( Dr. William Dement on Healthy Sleep and Optimal Perfomance ) I'm going to bed at 11 and waking at 7 with excelent results.
Hmm, the video looks interesting, but it's quite boringly executed :-(
Is there a summary of the points in this talk somewhere?
Is there a summary of the points in this talk somewhere?
the video looks interesting, but it's quite boringly executed :-(
Well, it is intended to help you fall asleep...
Well, it is intended to help you fall asleep...
Dement has a book: "The Promise of Sleep"
I read a book by one of Dement's colleagues, James Maas: "Power Sleep".
I first heard Dement in pure-audio form on the Stanford iTunes. That talk was moderately better organized than the video version, although it would certainly be better if there was a punchier video available on such an important topic.
I read a book by one of Dement's colleagues, James Maas: "Power Sleep".
I first heard Dement in pure-audio form on the Stanford iTunes. That talk was moderately better organized than the video version, although it would certainly be better if there was a punchier video available on such an important topic.
I can guarantee that you'll start feeling really tired around 10:30 and fall asleep like a baby by 11:15 within 2 weeks - probably even faster.
If he's got the sleep syndrome like he says this won't help. He just won't be tired in bed and will lay there. His body can't sync to a 24 schedule and will always want to slip. A normal body will sync to a 24 schedule if you let it. His won't. It totally sucks and I imagine consulting would be the way to do it.
If he's got the sleep syndrome like he says this won't help. He just won't be tired in bed and will lay there. His body can't sync to a 24 schedule and will always want to slip. A normal body will sync to a 24 schedule if you let it. His won't. It totally sucks and I imagine consulting would be the way to do it.
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I've been down this road many times. It isn't this simple. It's a genetic disorder.
You're lucky to be a hacker. There's almost no other profession more suited to unusual sleep schedules. The place where you were working sounds very anti-hacker. You'll have to find a better place. It will not be as hard as you think, just be up-front about your condition.
I have a co-worker who prefers to work on a 28-hour schedule. (I don't think he has a sleep disorder, he just decided he liked it.) His office hours are unpredictable, but he gets his work done and nobody cares.
There's even another team on this floor that's adopted a "results-only" management style, which means that people are discouraged from insisting on things like office hours. Those people are practically never even in the office.
I don't think it's absolutely required that you be a contractor, and in lots of places contractors have even less leverage than regular employees in defining the terms of their work. But if you go this route it's not particularly hard either. Just say you are one, print business cards, get a job in the normal way, and then cash their checks. Maintain your own computer equipment and count the depreciation as an expense. Charge more than you would make in wages to make up for the lack of job security. You don't even need to incorporate, or even talk to a lawyer, although this is sometimes advantageous once you're really raking it in.
If you happened to be offshore, your sleep disorder might even be an advantage, since every few weeks you'd be in sync with headquarters. I assume you are in the USA? Maybe you should consider moving to Australia or something.
P.S. It sounds like you've managed before? Management of offshore operations is one of those things that corporations constantly struggle with. So if you were cycling in and out of both time zones, that might be a real advantage.
I have a co-worker who prefers to work on a 28-hour schedule. (I don't think he has a sleep disorder, he just decided he liked it.) His office hours are unpredictable, but he gets his work done and nobody cares.
There's even another team on this floor that's adopted a "results-only" management style, which means that people are discouraged from insisting on things like office hours. Those people are practically never even in the office.
I don't think it's absolutely required that you be a contractor, and in lots of places contractors have even less leverage than regular employees in defining the terms of their work. But if you go this route it's not particularly hard either. Just say you are one, print business cards, get a job in the normal way, and then cash their checks. Maintain your own computer equipment and count the depreciation as an expense. Charge more than you would make in wages to make up for the lack of job security. You don't even need to incorporate, or even talk to a lawyer, although this is sometimes advantageous once you're really raking it in.
If you happened to be offshore, your sleep disorder might even be an advantage, since every few weeks you'd be in sync with headquarters. I assume you are in the USA? Maybe you should consider moving to Australia or something.
P.S. It sounds like you've managed before? Management of offshore operations is one of those things that corporations constantly struggle with. So if you were cycling in and out of both time zones, that might be a real advantage.
My sympathies on your sleep disorder.
To me, your biggest solvable problem is learning to stand up for yourself.
You are telling a story about your sleep phase syndrome, but I am reading a story about how you were bullied by people who picked up on your fear and anxiety. That's something you can fix.
It may be difficult to find a job that works with your unusual schedule. You should be honest with prospective employers before you take any position. Everyone should understand what they're getting into. But once you are hired, you need to take care of your health. Walk out the door when it is time to go. Don't justify yourself or be apologetic. You already know how that ends up. Your managers and coworkers will adjust if you stand up for yourself.
Of course, starting your own company is good too. :)
Good luck.
To me, your biggest solvable problem is learning to stand up for yourself.
You are telling a story about your sleep phase syndrome, but I am reading a story about how you were bullied by people who picked up on your fear and anxiety. That's something you can fix.
It may be difficult to find a job that works with your unusual schedule. You should be honest with prospective employers before you take any position. Everyone should understand what they're getting into. But once you are hired, you need to take care of your health. Walk out the door when it is time to go. Don't justify yourself or be apologetic. You already know how that ends up. Your managers and coworkers will adjust if you stand up for yourself.
Of course, starting your own company is good too. :)
Good luck.
"delayed sleep phase syndrome", so that's what its called! I didn't realize it had a name or was even a condition. I've had this for all my life it seems. How did I deal with it? For starters I was able to negotiate a better deal with my workplace and I figured out other ways to deal as well, email me at janak at kahoots dot biz and I'll tell you more about my experiences.
I had the exact same reaction. I seem to operate on 20-22 hour waking cycles, been that way all my life...
Nice to give it a name.
Funny how it takes the better part of your life to figure out that you have some kind of condition, huh? Have had the same thing happen to me several times!
"While giving my notice I practically begged for my job"
Why on earth would you do that, after the way they treated you??? Seriously, I don't get it. Get some self-respect! Next time something like this happens to you, quit sooner (like before your girl-friend leaves you).
I don't have a condition that is as severe as yours (I think), but essentially, my sleep is so irregular that I have also suffered in any 9 to 5 job I had so far. I even admit that sometimes this makes me anxious (because the normal career path is not open to me), but on the other hand, I simply realize that a 9 to 5 office job is not for me, and I have to look for alternatives. As a programmer, you can get by doing contract work from home. Get a spec, deliver a couple of weeks later - at your own sleep schedule.
I am not a doctor, but I don't think you can expect to live a normal life with your condition. But it is not so bad either - office jobs suck anyway.
Even with jobs where developers where allowed to come in as late as 12pm initially, sooner or later the issue of my schedule would always arise. A couple of weeks in, suddenly the company policy would change and people were expected to be in the office by 9am. So I really can not encourage you to keep looking for that understanding company that adjusts to your problems (not saying that there aren't any, just that I wouldn't count on it).
Why on earth would you do that, after the way they treated you??? Seriously, I don't get it. Get some self-respect! Next time something like this happens to you, quit sooner (like before your girl-friend leaves you).
I don't have a condition that is as severe as yours (I think), but essentially, my sleep is so irregular that I have also suffered in any 9 to 5 job I had so far. I even admit that sometimes this makes me anxious (because the normal career path is not open to me), but on the other hand, I simply realize that a 9 to 5 office job is not for me, and I have to look for alternatives. As a programmer, you can get by doing contract work from home. Get a spec, deliver a couple of weeks later - at your own sleep schedule.
I am not a doctor, but I don't think you can expect to live a normal life with your condition. But it is not so bad either - office jobs suck anyway.
Even with jobs where developers where allowed to come in as late as 12pm initially, sooner or later the issue of my schedule would always arise. A couple of weeks in, suddenly the company policy would change and people were expected to be in the office by 9am. So I really can not encourage you to keep looking for that understanding company that adjusts to your problems (not saying that there aren't any, just that I wouldn't count on it).
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
You've got a serious problem, so make a serious change. You're not working for minimum wage so your job isn't necessary for survival.
You've got a serious problem, so make a serious change. You're not working for minimum wage so your job isn't necessary for survival.
I don't think it's that unusual, I remember reading somewhere the average circadian cycle for most people is a 25 hour day, that's what mine seems to be. If I let myself I stay up an hour later each night. I usually work up a sleep deficit during the week and catch up on the weekend.
Try the tricks recommended for insomniacs and see if they help, avoid caffeine and alcohol, particularly at night. Only go to bed to sleep, not watching TV. Try getting natural light in the morning to wake up when the sun is coming up.
Try working somewhere else, I've been a programmer for more than 20 years and can't remember when anyone said I had to get in at 9.00 am or whatever, and most developers I've worked with are the same. Become a DBA or administrator working wierd hours is part of the job. 'luck
Try the tricks recommended for insomniacs and see if they help, avoid caffeine and alcohol, particularly at night. Only go to bed to sleep, not watching TV. Try getting natural light in the morning to wake up when the sun is coming up.
Try working somewhere else, I've been a programmer for more than 20 years and can't remember when anyone said I had to get in at 9.00 am or whatever, and most developers I've worked with are the same. Become a DBA or administrator working wierd hours is part of the job. 'luck
I'm pretty sure you're covered under the ADA. If this company has an HR department, one of their jobs is to protect the company from ADA lawsuits. If you really want to keep working for this company, talk to HR and make sure they understand that as far as you're concerned, you're being fired for a disability that the company refused to accomodate. It doesn't even matter what a court would say ... a good HR department is not going to want to find out. They're going to find a way to accomodate your schedule.
That said, there are enough good bosses out there who would love to have a good programmer, even on an unusual schedule. I guarantee you'll be able to find one if you spend a little bit of time looking around.
That said, there are enough good bosses out there who would love to have a good programmer, even on an unusual schedule. I guarantee you'll be able to find one if you spend a little bit of time looking around.
I have this exact condition and am in a very similar boat. Two things helped me a great deal: medication and training. The training I am sure you've heard before, and if it worked by itself you wouldn't have this problem. I've found that a combination of Provigil (an anti-narcolepsy drug) and Strattera (a non-stimulant ADD drug that has the side effect of early awakening) helps a tremendous amount. Throw in some Ambien once or twice a week, and I'm able to edit my sleep cycle to be much more in line with normal work hours.
There are those who say this is excessive. Those people obviously do not face what you and I do.
There are those who say this is excessive. Those people obviously do not face what you and I do.
What everyone else said.
Also, it seems to me that if the only thing keeping you from doing your job was conflict between the requirement to show up at a certain hour and your sleep disorder, then (in the US) the employer was violating the Americans with Disabilities Act by not accommodating your condition.
Also, it seems to me that if the only thing keeping you from doing your job was conflict between the requirement to show up at a certain hour and your sleep disorder, then (in the US) the employer was violating the Americans with Disabilities Act by not accommodating your condition.
here, here. you should seek counsel and find a new job.
(I originally tried to keep this short. Epic fail.)
I don't want to sound unsympathetic, as you seem to have an actual medical condition that's substantially impacting your life. At the same time, I want to point out a few things that really struck me reading your post, as I don't think mindless sympathy is the ideal approach to helping others. (Asperger's has its upside, too... :) )
"essentially told by HR that I was obligated to comeback full-time"
BS! Indentured servitude has long ago been outlawed in the US, and while my company generally tries hard to get our good interns to come back full-time, HR doesn't phrase it as an obligation.
"my girlfriend of 8 years (seriously, we had been together since we were 16) had just left me because I was exhausted and working all of the time"
There's an awful lot of relationship "turbulence" in the mid-20s, and it's awfully hard to pin a breakup to a specific root cause, especially when it's fairly vague.
"I'm actually afraid to get another job."
Why? For a good coder, they're everywhere, easy to get, and pretty handy for paying the bills.
There's an substantial chance that your prior employer is just a grind 'em up and spit 'em out crappy employer, though it's hard to say from only hearing your side. But if it really was "your employer's fault", then getting another one has a substantial chance of fixing a large part of what you are complaining about. (And if it was really "your fault" (see below), getting another one gets you that one step closer to figuring that out too, so that you can change that.)
I'd offer a couple pieces of advice:
1. Take responsibility for choosing your own path. Don't let HR tell you you're obligated to come back. Don't work for crappy employers.
2. Don't "double down" on your limitations. Given that you have a legitimate medical condition, don't tie other aspects of your life to that condition. Don't blame a failed relationship on it, etc; otherwise, you're liable to fall into a victim mentality, which regardless of whether or not there is a true linkage, doesn't help you to make thoughtful choices in your life.
3. There are plenty of employers out there for good hackers, and I've worked with people with far more messed up sleep/work schedules than you, and I'd hire (some of) those people with nothing more than a phone call telling me they were available.
If hacking is the one thing you love doing, do that. Going to academia, or anything other than hacking, is a cop-out.
Go get another job hacking, and if that doesn't work out, go get another job hacking, and repeat until you find one that makes you mutually happy. If you get to 4 or 5 and find that you're still "0 for", then think about whether there are other root causes, and whether you bear more responsibility for some of your challenges than you are currently admitting to.
You need more data. You came to HN asking for it. IMO, you really need more data about YOU and how YOU will handle your life responsibilities, and while you can ask HN how people here handle their lives, ultimately, it's going to be a lot more productive to find YOUR answers in YOUR mirror.
I don't want to sound unsympathetic, as you seem to have an actual medical condition that's substantially impacting your life. At the same time, I want to point out a few things that really struck me reading your post, as I don't think mindless sympathy is the ideal approach to helping others. (Asperger's has its upside, too... :) )
"essentially told by HR that I was obligated to comeback full-time"
BS! Indentured servitude has long ago been outlawed in the US, and while my company generally tries hard to get our good interns to come back full-time, HR doesn't phrase it as an obligation.
"my girlfriend of 8 years (seriously, we had been together since we were 16) had just left me because I was exhausted and working all of the time"
There's an awful lot of relationship "turbulence" in the mid-20s, and it's awfully hard to pin a breakup to a specific root cause, especially when it's fairly vague.
"I'm actually afraid to get another job."
Why? For a good coder, they're everywhere, easy to get, and pretty handy for paying the bills.
There's an substantial chance that your prior employer is just a grind 'em up and spit 'em out crappy employer, though it's hard to say from only hearing your side. But if it really was "your employer's fault", then getting another one has a substantial chance of fixing a large part of what you are complaining about. (And if it was really "your fault" (see below), getting another one gets you that one step closer to figuring that out too, so that you can change that.)
I'd offer a couple pieces of advice:
1. Take responsibility for choosing your own path. Don't let HR tell you you're obligated to come back. Don't work for crappy employers.
2. Don't "double down" on your limitations. Given that you have a legitimate medical condition, don't tie other aspects of your life to that condition. Don't blame a failed relationship on it, etc; otherwise, you're liable to fall into a victim mentality, which regardless of whether or not there is a true linkage, doesn't help you to make thoughtful choices in your life.
3. There are plenty of employers out there for good hackers, and I've worked with people with far more messed up sleep/work schedules than you, and I'd hire (some of) those people with nothing more than a phone call telling me they were available.
If hacking is the one thing you love doing, do that. Going to academia, or anything other than hacking, is a cop-out.
Go get another job hacking, and if that doesn't work out, go get another job hacking, and repeat until you find one that makes you mutually happy. If you get to 4 or 5 and find that you're still "0 for", then think about whether there are other root causes, and whether you bear more responsibility for some of your challenges than you are currently admitting to.
You need more data. You came to HN asking for it. IMO, you really need more data about YOU and how YOU will handle your life responsibilities, and while you can ask HN how people here handle their lives, ultimately, it's going to be a lot more productive to find YOUR answers in YOUR mirror.
>>"essentially told by HR that I was obligated to comeback full-time"
"BS! Indentured servitude has long ago been outlawed in the US, and while my company generally tries hard to get our good interns to come back full-time, HR doesn't phrase it as an obligation."
I'm sorry, but, you left out the most important part of that quote: "More than that, I wanted to comeback."
She was joking! I only included her statement to show that they were seemingly excited to have me return! The truth is, I appreciated the opportunity and felt a great sense of loyalty to the people at the company. I wanted to help.
I don't see loyalty as a flaw, nor was I blinded by it. Remember, the president actually said to me: "You have a number of years ahead of you, let's find out if there's something wrong."
If nothing was going to change, I was ready to walk out the door without so much as a word. I didn't seed my will, I simply wanted to believe what I was being dealt with honestly. I had a number of great offers in Boston, Austin, and San Francisco that I turned down to give this company a chance to work things out with me.
"There's an awful lot of relationship "turbulence" in the mid-20s, and it's awfully hard to pin a breakup to a specific root cause, especially when it's fairly vague."
Very true. We had been in a semi-long distance relationship for six years (90 miles while we were undergrad, then 180, when she went to law school.) When I stared working through the weekends or sleeping through my weekends with her, it put an obvious strain on our relationship.
"Going to academia, or anything other than hacking, is a cop-out."
I agree completely. Going back to school feels wrong on a number of levels.
"Go get another job hacking, and if that doesn't work out, go get another job hacking, and repeat until you find one that makes you mutually happy. If you get to 4 or 5 and find that you're still "0 for", then think about whether there are other root causes, and whether you bear more responsibility for some of your challenges than you are currently admitting to."
Considering that I was hired after two internships, they knew me, and that I had some ability to perform. After a year w\o sleep, a bad breakup, and moving across the country, all within a three month period, my confidence is rather shaken. I would rather not take another job and waste the time of my new employers, and bruise what's left of my ego while I grapple with existential dread. I probably need to get back on the FOSS horse.
I don't think of myself as a victim. I simply feel that I was lied to and don't fully understand why. Well, perhaps I do. The people involved simply didn't care. If they wanted me gone, they could have taken me up on my offers, or, as it was an at will work state, they could have fired me without explanation. The fact that they drug this out for over nine months and left me with extremely high medical bills when they knew that nothing was going to change seems cruel, and has apparently left them open to legal action.
I didn't know that I was entitled to a reasonable accommodation. Hell, I didn't even know what a reasonable accommodation was!
If nothing else this experience has taught me a lot. Unfortunately the price was much higher than I would have liked to pay.
"BS! Indentured servitude has long ago been outlawed in the US, and while my company generally tries hard to get our good interns to come back full-time, HR doesn't phrase it as an obligation."
I'm sorry, but, you left out the most important part of that quote: "More than that, I wanted to comeback."
She was joking! I only included her statement to show that they were seemingly excited to have me return! The truth is, I appreciated the opportunity and felt a great sense of loyalty to the people at the company. I wanted to help.
I don't see loyalty as a flaw, nor was I blinded by it. Remember, the president actually said to me: "You have a number of years ahead of you, let's find out if there's something wrong."
If nothing was going to change, I was ready to walk out the door without so much as a word. I didn't seed my will, I simply wanted to believe what I was being dealt with honestly. I had a number of great offers in Boston, Austin, and San Francisco that I turned down to give this company a chance to work things out with me.
"There's an awful lot of relationship "turbulence" in the mid-20s, and it's awfully hard to pin a breakup to a specific root cause, especially when it's fairly vague."
Very true. We had been in a semi-long distance relationship for six years (90 miles while we were undergrad, then 180, when she went to law school.) When I stared working through the weekends or sleeping through my weekends with her, it put an obvious strain on our relationship.
"Going to academia, or anything other than hacking, is a cop-out."
I agree completely. Going back to school feels wrong on a number of levels.
"Go get another job hacking, and if that doesn't work out, go get another job hacking, and repeat until you find one that makes you mutually happy. If you get to 4 or 5 and find that you're still "0 for", then think about whether there are other root causes, and whether you bear more responsibility for some of your challenges than you are currently admitting to."
Considering that I was hired after two internships, they knew me, and that I had some ability to perform. After a year w\o sleep, a bad breakup, and moving across the country, all within a three month period, my confidence is rather shaken. I would rather not take another job and waste the time of my new employers, and bruise what's left of my ego while I grapple with existential dread. I probably need to get back on the FOSS horse.
I don't think of myself as a victim. I simply feel that I was lied to and don't fully understand why. Well, perhaps I do. The people involved simply didn't care. If they wanted me gone, they could have taken me up on my offers, or, as it was an at will work state, they could have fired me without explanation. The fact that they drug this out for over nine months and left me with extremely high medical bills when they knew that nothing was going to change seems cruel, and has apparently left them open to legal action.
I didn't know that I was entitled to a reasonable accommodation. Hell, I didn't even know what a reasonable accommodation was!
If nothing else this experience has taught me a lot. Unfortunately the price was much higher than I would have liked to pay.
Above really nailed some important points - the biggest is feeling like you're in control of your life. Whenever you blame something external for something you had any chance of affecting, you way disempower yourself. Not mental voodoo here - if you feel like your relationship had no chance independent of what you did, then why bother trying? Things like that.
Next point is really harsh - there's no way you turned in all-star caliber work at your last post. And if you want exceptions, you've got to be really, really good. Because managers really fear giving exceptions, because then everyone wants them. A lot of managers take the easy road and don't accommodate staff at all - they're not mean, it's just that once you stop having a consistent set of across-the-board policies it becomes really hard to balance everything and keep everyone on track. It just takes a high level of skill and personal touch that most managers don't have. Now, if you're amazing, like the most important person that's ever worked there, they might find a way to accommodate you. If you're another cog in the wheel, then rightfully or not, they probably don't gun hard to keep you specifically as that cog if you need accommodation. (That's not to say whether that's right or not - it's just how it is)
If you want to get different hours from other people, highlight how much it'd benefit your employer and tell them right from the start. "Hi XYZ Company, I'm sleepy. I have this sleep thing but I do exceptional work. If you're flexible, I typically enjoy working 50-60 hours per week, but I've got to do some at night. I'd love to find a way to make this work - and it'd be cool to have someone alive and alert when the company's normally sleeping right? I can be that guy, and I pride myself on getting more done than everyone else."
The average person only does 2 hours of productive work each day - you can double the average person's production by not procrastinating and focusing for 5 hours a day. If you're the best guy on the team, you get more slack.
Finally, if you want to contract - easiest way to start is by taking Freelance work somewhere like Elance or Odesk. Log onto to one of their sites, create an account, then bid the minimum possible for your first job and knock it out of the park. If you do 4-5 jobs below market rates and get excellent feedback, you'll be able to get work at market rates pretty fast.
Next point is really harsh - there's no way you turned in all-star caliber work at your last post. And if you want exceptions, you've got to be really, really good. Because managers really fear giving exceptions, because then everyone wants them. A lot of managers take the easy road and don't accommodate staff at all - they're not mean, it's just that once you stop having a consistent set of across-the-board policies it becomes really hard to balance everything and keep everyone on track. It just takes a high level of skill and personal touch that most managers don't have. Now, if you're amazing, like the most important person that's ever worked there, they might find a way to accommodate you. If you're another cog in the wheel, then rightfully or not, they probably don't gun hard to keep you specifically as that cog if you need accommodation. (That's not to say whether that's right or not - it's just how it is)
If you want to get different hours from other people, highlight how much it'd benefit your employer and tell them right from the start. "Hi XYZ Company, I'm sleepy. I have this sleep thing but I do exceptional work. If you're flexible, I typically enjoy working 50-60 hours per week, but I've got to do some at night. I'd love to find a way to make this work - and it'd be cool to have someone alive and alert when the company's normally sleeping right? I can be that guy, and I pride myself on getting more done than everyone else."
The average person only does 2 hours of productive work each day - you can double the average person's production by not procrastinating and focusing for 5 hours a day. If you're the best guy on the team, you get more slack.
Finally, if you want to contract - easiest way to start is by taking Freelance work somewhere like Elance or Odesk. Log onto to one of their sites, create an account, then bid the minimum possible for your first job and knock it out of the park. If you do 4-5 jobs below market rates and get excellent feedback, you'll be able to get work at market rates pretty fast.
I am insomniac so can sympathize with your condition a bit. It is gonna help a lot that medical help has categorized your condition...lot better than not knowing it but not being able to manage it either.
Coming to the work problem, you could do three things: 1. find another job 2. consultant 3. run own business
1. There are a lot of companies out there (especially in software industry) that can provide a better work environment. I know for sure Microsoft does offer, and I guess Google also does it.
Make a list of companies you would like to work at, and go through the interview process. It is your choice to tell them about the situation before the interviews, but do take it up once they make an offer. Don't worry they will surely accommodate.
2. Consulting You can work from home and in your timings, but the key to be a successful consultancy work is lot of contacts and proven successful deliveries - so the initial days will be very tough. The more projects you deliver, the better it gets.
3. Own business May be just drop an application in the next YCombinator season :) I know its tough but may be something can be worked out, considering the choice of a good co-founder.
Additional tips: 1. considering the dull market scene, if any of the above does not work, you might want to consider going to grad school. Your experience and previous academics might get you a scholarship.
2. some companies offer job sharing where one job is shared by two people (each paid accordingly). They are mainly for administrative jobs but who knows.
All the best.
Coming to the work problem, you could do three things: 1. find another job 2. consultant 3. run own business
1. There are a lot of companies out there (especially in software industry) that can provide a better work environment. I know for sure Microsoft does offer, and I guess Google also does it.
Make a list of companies you would like to work at, and go through the interview process. It is your choice to tell them about the situation before the interviews, but do take it up once they make an offer. Don't worry they will surely accommodate.
2. Consulting You can work from home and in your timings, but the key to be a successful consultancy work is lot of contacts and proven successful deliveries - so the initial days will be very tough. The more projects you deliver, the better it gets.
3. Own business May be just drop an application in the next YCombinator season :) I know its tough but may be something can be worked out, considering the choice of a good co-founder.
Additional tips: 1. considering the dull market scene, if any of the above does not work, you might want to consider going to grad school. Your experience and previous academics might get you a scholarship.
2. some companies offer job sharing where one job is shared by two people (each paid accordingly). They are mainly for administrative jobs but who knows.
All the best.
Seriously, you are an idiot for not having left that company a lot earlier. Ignore that stupid company, really. I suppose there are places to work (or freelancing?) that fit you better.
Anyway, good luck, you can succeed :)
Anyway, good luck, you can succeed :)
Agreed. My first thought reading this was "what kind of horrid company has daily developer meetings at 8:45 AM?"
Like many others have said, I'm not sure you want to stay with that company. But it seems that if this is a diagnosed disorder and your doctor can certify that this "impacts a major life function" then the Americans with Disabilities Act may be on your side and the company would be obligated to supply "reasonable accommodations" for your disability. I briefly flirted with disability as a result of my RSI, but the rules are complex and I probably know about enough to be dangerous, but it might be worth talking to your doctor about.
The good news is that some people's cases, like mine, mellow out as we grow older. By the time you return from academia, it's quite possible that you'll be more functional with the addition of draconian sleep hygene rules, morning exercise, and light box therapy. (Note: I still revert to the default schedule if left to my own devices, but I am much more able to function as a day person now.)
I'm even able to stay up late on occasion now. I still can't function waking up at 6am on a regular basis, but I'm surviving on a 12-8am sleep schedule.
I'm even able to stay up late on occasion now. I still can't function waking up at 6am on a regular basis, but I'm surviving on a 12-8am sleep schedule.
I should mention a few more things:
1. My father worked nights until he was in his fourties. He had a similar problem, but was able to move to an earlier schedule.
2. I can't say that I prefer waking up on an earlier schedule; I think I still work better working in the evenings, but it's at least tolerable now.
3. I should have stressed the exercise and light therapy, especially when you don't have a schedule to keep. It won't solve all problems, but it does help.
1. My father worked nights until he was in his fourties. He had a similar problem, but was able to move to an earlier schedule.
2. I can't say that I prefer waking up on an earlier schedule; I think I still work better working in the evenings, but it's at least tolerable now.
3. I should have stressed the exercise and light therapy, especially when you don't have a schedule to keep. It won't solve all problems, but it does help.
I read somewhere (but can't remember where) that people spending a lot of time behind a monitor, can suffer from delayed sleep cycles. This is due to the light emitted by the monitor. So probably as one said already, it could help not watching at a monitor hours before sleep.
I found a lot of good informations about sleep on that link : http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm
I found a lot of good informations about sleep on that link : http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm
Not all employers are assholes about schedules. Find one that isn't.
You sound like you are pretty good. If you are pretty good, you should be able to find a company that is willing to work around whatever weirdness you have.
I don't have a sleep disorder (or at least, haven't been diagnosed) but I am a lazy fuck and have a hard time getting up at the same time every day. everywhere I've worked they've put up with me showing up at noon pretty often. (my favorite quote "I know I said we had a flexible schedule here, but I'm going to have to put my foot down and ask you to show up by noon") I mean, I can't show up at noon every day, but if I get there by 10:00 for most of the week, they usually forgive me showing up at 13:00 one day. I've never been fired for being late.
Oh, yeah, the trick to this? most of those places really did want me to show up on time. However, they wanted my work done even more. I can force myself awake at the same time every day (It's easy enough, I just keep a bowl of no-doz by the alarm, and eat one every time I hit the snooze) but I'm a zombie. So yeah, when they start giving me shit about showing up on time, I put in effort for a week or two, but at that point my performance starts falling, so I start showing up late again, and they are usually glad enough to see results that they are OK with my tardiness for a while.
Many employers (myself included) will let you work from home, when you want to. (Of course, many of us do this because we find that people are willing to give you better work for less money, if you are willing to let them work when and where they want to. When you give people a choice, they usually sell you their most productive hours, which is awesome for the employer.)
You sound like you are pretty good. If you are pretty good, you should be able to find a company that is willing to work around whatever weirdness you have.
I don't have a sleep disorder (or at least, haven't been diagnosed) but I am a lazy fuck and have a hard time getting up at the same time every day. everywhere I've worked they've put up with me showing up at noon pretty often. (my favorite quote "I know I said we had a flexible schedule here, but I'm going to have to put my foot down and ask you to show up by noon") I mean, I can't show up at noon every day, but if I get there by 10:00 for most of the week, they usually forgive me showing up at 13:00 one day. I've never been fired for being late.
Oh, yeah, the trick to this? most of those places really did want me to show up on time. However, they wanted my work done even more. I can force myself awake at the same time every day (It's easy enough, I just keep a bowl of no-doz by the alarm, and eat one every time I hit the snooze) but I'm a zombie. So yeah, when they start giving me shit about showing up on time, I put in effort for a week or two, but at that point my performance starts falling, so I start showing up late again, and they are usually glad enough to see results that they are OK with my tardiness for a while.
Many employers (myself included) will let you work from home, when you want to. (Of course, many of us do this because we find that people are willing to give you better work for less money, if you are willing to let them work when and where they want to. When you give people a choice, they usually sell you their most productive hours, which is awesome for the employer.)
While I've never been diagnosed, I suspect that I have something very similar, or exactly the same as you do.
The only way I've gotten around it is by making the vast majority of my income through freelance work, and by finding more permanent jobs that are willing to take it into account, or that allow for telecommuting or don't really care about schedules.
The only way I've gotten around it is by making the vast majority of my income through freelance work, and by finding more permanent jobs that are willing to take it into account, or that allow for telecommuting or don't really care about schedules.
I can definitely sympathize with your situation. I suffer from DSPS and a melatonin deficiency which makes it impossible to sleep without nightly doses of Rozerem, which is a synthesized melatonin. My sleep difficulties did not manifest until age 17, and made the next 6 years miserable until I spoke to a doctor who realized what was going on.
An earlier Ask HN talked about overcoming poor sleep: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=205153 I have a post in that topic which details a lot of my experiences with sleeping difficulties.
There is some great information on basic sleep hygiene in today's Ask HN which covers the basics. It's great that you had a PSG performed. Ruling out Sleep Apnea and RLS is a great start for finding out what is actually happening. I know that I tried a half dozen sedative prescription sleeping medications which did absolutely nothing for me before trying the Rozerem. Rozerem is not a sedative but a synthesized hormone which binds to your melatonin receptors. Melatonin is key in regulating the sleep/wake cycle and a melatonin deficiency can contribute to DSPS. Talk to your doctor and see if that might be a factor for you.
I have a 25-26 hour natural rhythm which does not follow the daily 24-hour cycle and which makes the corporate standard 9-6 hours difficult. The only time I've really synced up with the sun has been when I am doing long-term backpacking trips and getting massive amounts of sunlight. In an artificially lit indoor world I just don't match that cycle. I have however been in my current employment on the 9-6 schedule for two years now, which feels like a milestone to me. I should note that while I have maintained that schedule, I do feel that my most creative output has been diminished in the process. At the current time I've decided to accept that limitation while I save money to bootstrap a startup. I'm not convinced that a standard corporate job is impossible for someone in our situation, but it is definitely difficult and there is significant effort required. Self-discipline is critical if that is your goal. However, self-discipline is not sufficient if there is an exacerbating medical condition besides DSPS. I will freely admit that I have not fully conformed to my ideal 11-7 sleeping schedule 7 days a week, but even my somewhat sloppy adherence to sleep hygiene guidelines has made a large difference in my life.
One important consideration when looking for a new job is what sorts of scheduling responsibilities you will have. I for instance am miserable when I am on active on call duty 24/7. Contracting or consulting work with delivery-based responsibilities may be an option for you. I have not tried it yet.
Man I feel weird writing this next bit because I haven't yet fully overcome similar struggles in my own life. But here goes. You made a good call to stay with family while you've been dealing with the fallout of all this. Familial support can make a huge difference. It sounds like you are suffering from depression or anxiety - it would probably be productive to talk to guidance counselor, therapist, or psychiatrist to see if there is some coping strategy to use in the short to medium term while you get back on your feet. This would be in addition to developing habits and strategies to deal with sleep disorders. Going back into academics might be a good idea, but if you don't learn to manage your DSPS you will continue to struggle there. It might only prolong your anxiety about your job prospects. You need to decide what is most important to you. Is it finding a way to maintain a standard schedule? Is it finding a job where your employer is not concerned about a nonstandard one? Is it going into consulting or contracting where pay is based on delivery rather than physical presence? These are all valid choices.
I worked for a few months in a megacorporation. This was before I had found out about the root causes of my sleeping difficulties. After my struggles with sleeping disorders manifested as inability to maintain the mandated schedule I was asked to leave. It was devastating to me. I was told that the quality of my work was high, but that the need for a consistent schedule was more important. That was the tipping point which convinced me to aggressively pursue a method of attaining consistent sleep. As I mentioned, I've been in my current job with the same schedule (and a longer commute!) for two years now, so I feel that I've been mostly successful in that respect. For me, the next step is to strike out on my own and go into business for myself. Your choices are your own in that respect.
I wish you the best of luck. Know that your challenges are not insurmountable. From your description of your accomplishments it sounds like you are capable of doing great things, once you find a good environment and lifestyle. Don't let your prior bad experiences keep you down permanently. Whatever you decide to do, it will require discipline, calculated risks, and a willingness to go outside the ordinary. That can be scary, but may just be worth it.
[Edit: I think I may have just convinced myself to make some changes in my life as I wrote this response....]
An earlier Ask HN talked about overcoming poor sleep: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=205153 I have a post in that topic which details a lot of my experiences with sleeping difficulties.
There is some great information on basic sleep hygiene in today's Ask HN which covers the basics. It's great that you had a PSG performed. Ruling out Sleep Apnea and RLS is a great start for finding out what is actually happening. I know that I tried a half dozen sedative prescription sleeping medications which did absolutely nothing for me before trying the Rozerem. Rozerem is not a sedative but a synthesized hormone which binds to your melatonin receptors. Melatonin is key in regulating the sleep/wake cycle and a melatonin deficiency can contribute to DSPS. Talk to your doctor and see if that might be a factor for you.
I have a 25-26 hour natural rhythm which does not follow the daily 24-hour cycle and which makes the corporate standard 9-6 hours difficult. The only time I've really synced up with the sun has been when I am doing long-term backpacking trips and getting massive amounts of sunlight. In an artificially lit indoor world I just don't match that cycle. I have however been in my current employment on the 9-6 schedule for two years now, which feels like a milestone to me. I should note that while I have maintained that schedule, I do feel that my most creative output has been diminished in the process. At the current time I've decided to accept that limitation while I save money to bootstrap a startup. I'm not convinced that a standard corporate job is impossible for someone in our situation, but it is definitely difficult and there is significant effort required. Self-discipline is critical if that is your goal. However, self-discipline is not sufficient if there is an exacerbating medical condition besides DSPS. I will freely admit that I have not fully conformed to my ideal 11-7 sleeping schedule 7 days a week, but even my somewhat sloppy adherence to sleep hygiene guidelines has made a large difference in my life.
One important consideration when looking for a new job is what sorts of scheduling responsibilities you will have. I for instance am miserable when I am on active on call duty 24/7. Contracting or consulting work with delivery-based responsibilities may be an option for you. I have not tried it yet.
Man I feel weird writing this next bit because I haven't yet fully overcome similar struggles in my own life. But here goes. You made a good call to stay with family while you've been dealing with the fallout of all this. Familial support can make a huge difference. It sounds like you are suffering from depression or anxiety - it would probably be productive to talk to guidance counselor, therapist, or psychiatrist to see if there is some coping strategy to use in the short to medium term while you get back on your feet. This would be in addition to developing habits and strategies to deal with sleep disorders. Going back into academics might be a good idea, but if you don't learn to manage your DSPS you will continue to struggle there. It might only prolong your anxiety about your job prospects. You need to decide what is most important to you. Is it finding a way to maintain a standard schedule? Is it finding a job where your employer is not concerned about a nonstandard one? Is it going into consulting or contracting where pay is based on delivery rather than physical presence? These are all valid choices.
I worked for a few months in a megacorporation. This was before I had found out about the root causes of my sleeping difficulties. After my struggles with sleeping disorders manifested as inability to maintain the mandated schedule I was asked to leave. It was devastating to me. I was told that the quality of my work was high, but that the need for a consistent schedule was more important. That was the tipping point which convinced me to aggressively pursue a method of attaining consistent sleep. As I mentioned, I've been in my current job with the same schedule (and a longer commute!) for two years now, so I feel that I've been mostly successful in that respect. For me, the next step is to strike out on my own and go into business for myself. Your choices are your own in that respect.
I wish you the best of luck. Know that your challenges are not insurmountable. From your description of your accomplishments it sounds like you are capable of doing great things, once you find a good environment and lifestyle. Don't let your prior bad experiences keep you down permanently. Whatever you decide to do, it will require discipline, calculated risks, and a willingness to go outside the ordinary. That can be scary, but may just be worth it.
[Edit: I think I may have just convinced myself to make some changes in my life as I wrote this response....]
Interesting. I was going to recommend taking melatonin to help regulate sleep.
I take melatonin (in it's natural form from the drug store) on a nearly nightly basis, so that I can keep a regular schedule.
I have symptoms similar to DSPS, but not quite as severe and since learning about melatonin, it's helped quite a bit in being more regular for the sake of the rest of the world.
As folks have mentioned, contracting is great. That's what I do. You have the freedom to work as you see fit, without the paranoia of the damn alarm clock.
G'luck friend!
I take melatonin (in it's natural form from the drug store) on a nearly nightly basis, so that I can keep a regular schedule.
I have symptoms similar to DSPS, but not quite as severe and since learning about melatonin, it's helped quite a bit in being more regular for the sake of the rest of the world.
As folks have mentioned, contracting is great. That's what I do. You have the freedom to work as you see fit, without the paranoia of the damn alarm clock.
G'luck friend!
The main advantage of Rozerem over natural melatonin is that the dosage and quality are consistent. Since it's something I depend on I appreciate the assurances I get from the FDA :)
Where are you geographically? In Silicon Valley only a few players (and they are generally notorious for it) would require you to come in at 8:45.
You're also internalizing things that may have nothing to do with you: between the ages of 18-25 jobs and relationship will often not work out for you - and even if you are at fault, this is the best time to make mistakes.
(Your ex-gf is a human being just like you, with her own flaws and interests - and different employers have their own HR policies, some of them bad some of them good; and the "obligated to come back" is completely false.)
You're also internalizing things that may have nothing to do with you: between the ages of 18-25 jobs and relationship will often not work out for you - and even if you are at fault, this is the best time to make mistakes.
(Your ex-gf is a human being just like you, with her own flaws and interests - and different employers have their own HR policies, some of them bad some of them good; and the "obligated to come back" is completely false.)
I used to be like this in graduate school. I started working out more and more, treated with sleeping pills and now I sleep regularly between 10pm-2am and I'm up 6am-10am. If I have meetings, sometimes I cope on 6 hours of sleep. Have you tried really, truly beating your body into exhaustion after work 1-3 hours at a gym? Incidentally, that will help the gf problem as well (:
Otherwise, there are plenty of jobs that will let you have a bit of a flexible schedule if you want. Many startups will let you work the hours you want if you are hugely productive.
Otherwise, there are plenty of jobs that will let you have a bit of a flexible schedule if you want. Many startups will let you work the hours you want if you are hugely productive.
One thing to watch out for with exercise and sleep deprivation is that the body's ability to heal after a hard workout is greatly diminished. You have to be careful not to injure yourself.
if going to bed at the same time / getting up at the same times works, then you're probably lucky to not have such an extreme disorder. I've tried this and it doesn't work for me, the only solution has been to change my life so it fits more around my condition. This is through a combination of - 1 part time job, 1 teaching job and a number of freelance jobs.
Freelancing is probably your best option as you can work from home at hours that suit you, the best way to get freelance work is via direct contacts, get yourself a linkedin profile & your own website (if you don't already) and get networking. Most of my freelance work comes from word of mouth, so make sure as many people as possible know what you do & that you're available.
Contracting is an option, as you could deal with the sleep deprivation for a couple of months, then take a couple of weeks off - there's loads of agencies about, just make sure you 'sell' yourself to them with a really great CV.
Alternatively, do some research and find a company that promotes more progressive working styles, I worked at one small agency which allowed people to work from home if they chose, or work shifts at the office that suited them.
Don't give up hope, it's not your fault you have this condition, and if workplaces' could be more flexible it would be better for everyone that's currently excluded (i.e. people with disabilities, single parents, etc).
Hey listen, I know exactly how you feel.
Sleep issues have been a major factor in my life since the 3rd grade, where I started to stay up too late every night and miss the bus in the morning.
My advice is to stop using a computer outside of work. Entirely. Remove computers from your home. Stop carrying a laptop in your backpack.
I stayed up late at night hacking open source for a decade. I'm only now accepting that my health hinges on not working on a software project in my free time.
Just try it for a month. The world will not fall apart.
Sleep issues have been a major factor in my life since the 3rd grade, where I started to stay up too late every night and miss the bus in the morning.
My advice is to stop using a computer outside of work. Entirely. Remove computers from your home. Stop carrying a laptop in your backpack.
I stayed up late at night hacking open source for a decade. I'm only now accepting that my health hinges on not working on a software project in my free time.
Just try it for a month. The world will not fall apart.
I've suffered a mild version of this problem during a couple of periods. I don't think it's the same as yours, that seems to be much stronger. Anyway, I fixed it using some of the same advice that others have already told you and a little more thing: light. A very strong light in my room at the time of awakening helped A LOT. The light must touch the skin. You'll need some kind of device to program it or someone to do it manually.
I've probably got it too. I've managed to arrange a schedule for myself that cycles weekly so that I can predict my waking hours that works pretty well.
I tried a job at first but when it became clear that they were really buying "butt-time" in a seat and that my schedule was simply set to whatever was convenient for the boss, I had to strike out on my own.
I have not regretted it.
I tried a job at first but when it became clear that they were really buying "butt-time" in a seat and that my schedule was simply set to whatever was convenient for the boss, I had to strike out on my own.
I have not regretted it.
Same thing here, but even more erratic. When working a normal job (which I did for 7 years before founding a company) the best strategy was to sleep 6 nights a week. I almost always skipped sleep on Saturday night and would go to bed Sunday afternoon as kind of a weekly reset.
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't everybody shift by half an hour a night?
My advice:
1) Do some contract work, just to build some cash, networking, and confidence. It can expose you to more different parts of the industry in 3 months than working in a big corporation ever will.
3) What do you actually expect to be that different about academia ? You can't be a student forever, so at some point you will be the equivalent of a freelancer in academia -- you will set your own hours, but your income will be largely determined by the grants you can pull in or what you produce for your professor. There are academic employers that can be as obnoxious about meeting times and etc as companies are, although they are less common. Finally, you are likely to embedded in a giant bureaucratic institution with many of the disadvantages of that, but lacking the security that traditionally comes from working in a really big corporation.
In reality, the age of big institutions is over -- if you work for a giant corporation, you still have to constantly re-apply for your job and fight for health care and have a substantial possibility of getting laid off because some MBA invested in CDOs. We are all freelancers now, but only some people realize it. That's a different post.
As a final observation, I would say that you seem to be pretty down emotionally right now, and even mild depression is often associated with weird sleep patterns. Consider the possibility that when your life doesn't suck as much, your sleep problems might be more manageable even if they are still there.
I would make a fairly simple list of goals, such as "this month I will make $300 from contracting on craigslist" and "this week I will apply to 5 companies that sound exciting" and try to hit them in a fairly disciplined way every day, even if "every day" means "every night". If you start hitting a few goals, you can at least build some forward momentum.
1) Do some contract work, just to build some cash, networking, and confidence. It can expose you to more different parts of the industry in 3 months than working in a big corporation ever will.
-- Search for gigs via personal contacts, craigslist, and then guru / scriptlance / rentacoder, in that order. The gigs get progressively worse as you work down that.
-- Although your former employer sounds like a shit place to work, and most people kind of glorify thier first real-world employer, feel free to hit them for contract work which YOU WILL DO FROM HOME. Emphasis on that last part. Charge them 3 times whatever your salary worked out to be previously; 2 times is standard, but if they fired you, stick it to them for 3.
3) What do you actually expect to be that different about academia ? You can't be a student forever, so at some point you will be the equivalent of a freelancer in academia -- you will set your own hours, but your income will be largely determined by the grants you can pull in or what you produce for your professor. There are academic employers that can be as obnoxious about meeting times and etc as companies are, although they are less common. Finally, you are likely to embedded in a giant bureaucratic institution with many of the disadvantages of that, but lacking the security that traditionally comes from working in a really big corporation.
In reality, the age of big institutions is over -- if you work for a giant corporation, you still have to constantly re-apply for your job and fight for health care and have a substantial possibility of getting laid off because some MBA invested in CDOs. We are all freelancers now, but only some people realize it. That's a different post.
As a final observation, I would say that you seem to be pretty down emotionally right now, and even mild depression is often associated with weird sleep patterns. Consider the possibility that when your life doesn't suck as much, your sleep problems might be more manageable even if they are still there.
I would make a fairly simple list of goals, such as "this month I will make $300 from contracting on craigslist" and "this week I will apply to 5 companies that sound exciting" and try to hit them in a fairly disciplined way every day, even if "every day" means "every night". If you start hitting a few goals, you can at least build some forward momentum.
We are all freelancers now, but only some people realize it. That's a different post.
I am very interested in reading this post sometime.
I am very interested in reading this post sometime.
It depends on where you are, but many jurisdictions have laws about reasonable accomodation for diagnosed illnesses. See a lawyer.
I don't believe I suffer from anything this serious but a good day of outdoor exercise does wonders for my sleep schedule.
To contract, make your website, advertise what you do and start emailing people. Could not be easier.
Just curious...have you ever tried marijuana? Did it affect your sleeping?
I've included a TL;DR version at the bottom.
I'm 25 and I have delayed sleep phase syndrome. Depending on the individual it manifests differently, in my case it presents as a natural tendency to go to sleep each night about two hours later than the night before (8:00 PM -> 10:00 PM -> 12:00 PM) sleeping for 8.5-9 hours.
I've been this way since infancy. In high school it was difficult, in college it was manageable, while working it was unbearable.
Five months ago I left my first job of out college.
I had interned for the previous two summers and was essentially told by HR that I was obligated to comeback full-time. More than that, I wanted to comeback. Up until that point I had an extremely flexible schedule. As an intern I had a loose schedule, typically working more than 40 hours each week, and they were happy enough with me to offer a full-time position.
All of my life I was terrified that my sleep was going to make consistent employment impossible. I was thrilled to have found a job that paid extremely well and allowed for a flexible schedule. My confidence soared. In the three years since first interning I've contributed over 30 KLOC to various open source projects, traveled, and generally lived without fear.
When I started full-time, everything changed.
For the first three months it wasn't terrible. I would usually arrive between 6:00 AM and 10:00 AM, netting between 4-5 hours of sleep on a typical week night. After the first three months I was exhausted. I talked to the President, telling him that I was exhausted and that I needed a change. I was largely ignored. I would take sick days to catch up on sleep.
Six months of this and I was out of my head tired and my performance was slipping. On Friday / Saturday nights I would sleep 12-16 hours and go to the office or work from home during the weekends just to keep up. People started to call me a zombie. I stopped reading, visiting family and friends, and watching tv or movies. I would go home after work each night and just wait for sleep. I stopped existing.
I requested two weeks of unpaid leave, and essentially slept through the first six days. After that I tried to catch up on some open source work. By the end of the two weeks I was wracked with anxiety, terrified to go back to the way things were, but, I did.
The president asked me to see a doctor, and I scheduled an appointment for after the holidays. 6.5 months in, our daily developer meeting was moved to 8:45 AM (from 1:00 PM) and arrival time / meeting attendance was now being monitored. I actually started getting less sleep that I was before, 3-5 hours a night.
I offered to quit, twice. Three months into employment, and about seven months in. If thing weren't going to change I was eager to leave. I stayed because I earnestly believed that they were going to work with me. The president actually said to me: "You have a number of years ahead of you, let's find out if there's something wrong." This statement more than any other made what came next seem like a cruel jape.
Now seven months into my little experiment with prolonged partial sleep deprivation I had my results back from my sleep doctor. I was diagnosed with delayed sleep phase syndrome. A polysomnogram (PSG) was performed and no easily correctible physical reason was found for my sleep condition (restless legs, sleep apnea, etc.) Sleeping pills were largely ineffective.
The next week I had a series of conversations with my direct report and the president of the company. Giving them the results of my PSG, and the diagnosis I requested a schedule change, any schedule change.
I was asked: "What would happen if we don't change your schedule?"
I replied that: "I would have to quit."
Sometime later my direct report came back to my office and said: "We're not going to fire you, as long as you come in on time, as you have been doing. But, we will not be changing your schedule."
I had a lease for another three months and my girlfriend of 8 years (seriously, we had been together since we were 16) had just left me because I was exhausted and working all of the time.
I asked for some time to think about it, eventually telling them that I would have to quit, but, that I would give them my notice two weeks before my lease was up.
I asked if I could have a schedule change to make the next three months a bit easier. The request was denied.
I spent the next three months exhausted and in a state of shock.
About three weeks before I was scheduled to quit, my direct report actually asked for my notice. While giving my notice I practically begged for my job. I, again, asked for any kind of schedule change of any kind. Even offering to move to a part-time position.
I was exhausted and afraid for my job every single day for a year. Ostensibly, this was a fun place to work, video games, snacks, etc. I just couldn't enjoy it on so little sleep
I've spent the last five months living with family and have now decided to reenter academia terrified by the though of living through this again. I'm actually afraid to get another job.
TL;DR Version:
Does anyone else here have a sleep condition? How do you deal with it? How do you live? Where do you work? Any advice?
I know nothing about contracting, or how to go about starting my own company, but, I see these as my only options.