Goodbye to Roblox on Linux with their new anti-cheat and Wine blocking(gamingonlinux.com)
gamingonlinux.com
Goodbye to Roblox on Linux with their new anti-cheat and Wine blocking
https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2023/05/goodbye-to-roblox-on-linux-with-their-new-anti-cheat-and-wine-blocking/
9 comments
Hot take, but it's a parental failure to let kids communicate in a meaningful way with strangers via games. This is why DS and Wii multiplayer were so interesting, you could play with strangers, but had canned responses for comms for the most part unless people added the friend code of each other, at which point they might be able to voice chat or use text. You could only share a friend code if you could communicate outside of the game.
Where there's the means to talk to kids properly, you'll find predators. That's a given.
It's also bold to assume that these are children playing Roblox on Linux, when they are in all likelihood actually adults.
Where there's the means to talk to kids properly, you'll find predators. That's a given.
It's also bold to assume that these are children playing Roblox on Linux, when they are in all likelihood actually adults.
I'm actually okay with parents letting kids communicate with strangers in games so long as it isn't unsupervised. I've known parents who'd play with their kids in MMORPGs without much issue. They might get exposed to some 'adult content', but as long as a responsible adult is around to contextualize provide guidance and stop things before they progress into something harmful it can be good.
I agree, canned responses are ideal if the play has to be unsupervised. Friend codes were frustrating though and a ton of people just posted them online where strangers could see them anyway.
I agree, canned responses are ideal if the play has to be unsupervised. Friend codes were frustrating though and a ton of people just posted them online where strangers could see them anyway.
This is what my mother thought and I grew up severely socially anxious and awkward, I was able to fix it in my adulthood with training and therapy, but please do not do this.
Are you really implying that because you grew up with a Nintendo console that you had problems socially? It sounds like a parenting failure.
If you believe your social interactions should have come from strangers via video games then that's abnormal.
Counterpoint: because my mother met her husband online in a chatroom, I spent most of my childhood talking to strangers. I was groomed online multiple times online. I was also sexually abused at three schools by teachers. A bunch of people me and my friends met off the internet were not who they purported to be whatsoever.
I'm still getting therapy in adulthood. I know what I'd have rather had happen.
It was a parenting failure for me too after the divorce of my parents.
If you believe your social interactions should have come from strangers via video games then that's abnormal.
Counterpoint: because my mother met her husband online in a chatroom, I spent most of my childhood talking to strangers. I was groomed online multiple times online. I was also sexually abused at three schools by teachers. A bunch of people me and my friends met off the internet were not who they purported to be whatsoever.
I'm still getting therapy in adulthood. I know what I'd have rather had happen.
It was a parenting failure for me too after the divorce of my parents.
But would supporting a Linux client bring in more money than it costs? I remember reading claims from other software projects that Linux was an insignificant percentage of their user base but a majority of their support tickets.
> Linux was an insignificant percentage of their user base but a majority of their support tickets.
It may be majority of their support tickets, since many ports are a pretty crappy job. Does it start up? Let's ship it and call it a day. Sometimes not even that (see also Witcher 2 for Linux drama).
For many projects, if they would provide the same quality/effort for their majority platform, whey would go under.
It may be majority of their support tickets, since many ports are a pretty crappy job. Does it start up? Let's ship it and call it a day. Sometimes not even that (see also Witcher 2 for Linux drama).
For many projects, if they would provide the same quality/effort for their majority platform, whey would go under.
Looks stupid in my opinion to consider that they don't have to support it because of insignificant percentage of users. Because they are not really working Linux version or not for a long time. So you don't know how many users you would have and so if it's insignificant. And even if they are able to differentiate windows and wine users.
And for the majority of tickets, I guess it is mainly tickets like "please have a Linux version, please have a Linux version that starts!".
I hate this company so much, so much assholes, because I have kid that wants to play that and that it is a shame to tell him that he can't because you want him to be on a Linux computer or otherwise he will boot on windows just for that!
In addition, with a few news we can see that they are a little bit okay to abuse of children or have children abused if they can sell more robux...
At this point, if they don't change their course, my only wish for this company is for them to crash and burn!
And for the majority of tickets, I guess it is mainly tickets like "please have a Linux version, please have a Linux version that starts!".
I hate this company so much, so much assholes, because I have kid that wants to play that and that it is a shame to tell him that he can't because you want him to be on a Linux computer or otherwise he will boot on windows just for that!
In addition, with a few news we can see that they are a little bit okay to abuse of children or have children abused if they can sell more robux...
At this point, if they don't change their course, my only wish for this company is for them to crash and burn!
Was it Linus himself who said don't take things away from users?
The person they quoted from Roblox staff says they have to support a client they release. But why? Engaging with a community means you don't parent them. Tell the community, “hey we can't support this but if you want to support it yourselves we trust you to be adults about it”. That would be the most positive action to come from this. Instead it's very invasive anti-cheat (usually equivalent to rootkitting) and a full on block of Wine. Horrific behavior.
The person they quoted from Roblox staff says they have to support a client they release. But why? Engaging with a community means you don't parent them. Tell the community, “hey we can't support this but if you want to support it yourselves we trust you to be adults about it”. That would be the most positive action to come from this. Instead it's very invasive anti-cheat (usually equivalent to rootkitting) and a full on block of Wine. Horrific behavior.
"Never trust the client" applies to human beings, too.
Roblox can't trust the clients — human beings — to be adults about gaming. This is completely correct. Cheating is attempted by a percentage of all human adults, in all human games, without exception.
Linux has no capability to attest to the server that it is enforcing protections against interference by human beings; on memory, on processing, on graphical outputs, and on human interface inputs. Linux, by design, allows human beings to modify anything they wish to do, up to and including cheating. This is by design, and conflicts directly with any efforts to prevent cheating.
The entire invasive anti-cheat / rootkit software trend exists solely due to the lack of secure attestation from chip-to-app. macOS has for many years had the ability to boot software in fully-attested "no modifications are present" mode, chained from the hardware TPM chip, to the signed kernel, the signed OS image, and the signed application itself. Gaming consoles have been doing this for years, and Windows 11 — which requires a TPM chip — will support this as well, same as Windows 10 optionally does in little-known enterprise configurations.
So, someday, a few years from now, multiplayer games that are interested in preventing cheating will simply will stop accepting connections from clients who are not able to provide chip-to-app attestation that they're running an unmodified environment, with neither debuggers nor DLL injections permitted.
I expect that Valve either has, or will, implement TPM-backed secure attestation for their Steam Deck's default boot-up into Proton (which is currently based on Linux). Once they do so, I expect Roblox would then be willing to consider Linux again. Until then, they have no reason to: Linux, by ethical standpoint and code design, trusts the client.
(I recognize that HN is generally hostile to considering how secure attestation might end up widely adopted and demanded by games and other applications, but the ship has already sailed. I’m just trying to yell “iceberg” and get the Linux community to face what’s happening and form a useful strategy in response.)
Roblox can't trust the clients — human beings — to be adults about gaming. This is completely correct. Cheating is attempted by a percentage of all human adults, in all human games, without exception.
Linux has no capability to attest to the server that it is enforcing protections against interference by human beings; on memory, on processing, on graphical outputs, and on human interface inputs. Linux, by design, allows human beings to modify anything they wish to do, up to and including cheating. This is by design, and conflicts directly with any efforts to prevent cheating.
The entire invasive anti-cheat / rootkit software trend exists solely due to the lack of secure attestation from chip-to-app. macOS has for many years had the ability to boot software in fully-attested "no modifications are present" mode, chained from the hardware TPM chip, to the signed kernel, the signed OS image, and the signed application itself. Gaming consoles have been doing this for years, and Windows 11 — which requires a TPM chip — will support this as well, same as Windows 10 optionally does in little-known enterprise configurations.
So, someday, a few years from now, multiplayer games that are interested in preventing cheating will simply will stop accepting connections from clients who are not able to provide chip-to-app attestation that they're running an unmodified environment, with neither debuggers nor DLL injections permitted.
I expect that Valve either has, or will, implement TPM-backed secure attestation for their Steam Deck's default boot-up into Proton (which is currently based on Linux). Once they do so, I expect Roblox would then be willing to consider Linux again. Until then, they have no reason to: Linux, by ethical standpoint and code design, trusts the client.
(I recognize that HN is generally hostile to considering how secure attestation might end up widely adopted and demanded by games and other applications, but the ship has already sailed. I’m just trying to yell “iceberg” and get the Linux community to face what’s happening and form a useful strategy in response.)
>(I recognize that HN is generally hostile to considering how secure attestation might end up widely adopted and demanded by games and other applications, but the ship has already sailed. I’m just trying to yell “iceberg” and get the Linux community to face what’s happening and form a useful strategy in response.)
While I appreciate your thoughtful comment, I don't see you offering much in the way of strategy beyond accept the loss of control over your own machine in the one OS that does not inherently hand itself over to third parties.
While I appreciate your thoughtful comment, I don't see you offering much in the way of strategy beyond accept the loss of control over your own machine in the one OS that does not inherently hand itself over to third parties.
> I don't see you offering much in the way of strategy
I'm not offering any strategy at all. I don't have one that can stop Linux from hitting the secure attestation iceberg in a few years. As far as I can determine, no one does.
I'm not offering any strategy at all. I don't have one that can stop Linux from hitting the secure attestation iceberg in a few years. As far as I can determine, no one does.
Remote attestation and protecting the computer from the client's control is a frontal assault on general-purpose computing, and I'm upset to see corporations forcing it on computers. I wish the world hadn't come to this state, but I fear there's not much we can do when OS, hardware, and service companies are colluding to claw away control of hardware away from users and owners.
You don't need to tamper with the client to cheat. Anything that can scrape a screen and programmatically provide input will get you far and will be difficult for anticheat to reliably detect without hitting false positives. Hell, you might not even need the client, if you can reverse engineer the wire protocol and pretend to be a client.
> You don't need to tamper with the client to cheat.
You do if you're trying to cheat using software alone. Hardware-assisted cheating will continue to occur, but without access to software-only cheats, the total size of the cheating market is considerably less.
Anyone could use the Konami code in games that accepted it, because it cost nothing and was easy to remember; someone who doesn't otherwise cheat might do so because it's so easy. But to use a Game Genie cheat, you had to buy a physical object, and look up codes in a manual of cheats, and know that you were cheating, and see that cartridge reminding you each time you play. That awareness stops a lot of people from cheating.
Today's cheating opportunity cost is more Konami than Game Genie — no hardware required, just enter your CVV code to enable the cheat.
You do if you're trying to cheat using software alone. Hardware-assisted cheating will continue to occur, but without access to software-only cheats, the total size of the cheating market is considerably less.
Anyone could use the Konami code in games that accepted it, because it cost nothing and was easy to remember; someone who doesn't otherwise cheat might do so because it's so easy. But to use a Game Genie cheat, you had to buy a physical object, and look up codes in a manual of cheats, and know that you were cheating, and see that cartridge reminding you each time you play. That awareness stops a lot of people from cheating.
Today's cheating opportunity cost is more Konami than Game Genie — no hardware required, just enter your CVV code to enable the cheat.
Does Roblox not support Windows 10 right now then? Does it require a TPM chip on Windows 11?
I assume Roblox supports Windows 10 right now. It’s a relatively stable target of a platform, with various effective anti-cheating defenses. It’s not perfect in that regard, but certainly it ought to be enough for them, so I think it’s a safe bet to say they probably do target Windows 10 today.
Five years from now? I wouldn’t make that assumption, no. They might still support it, but I’m not at all certain of that.
Five years from now? I wouldn’t make that assumption, no. They might still support it, but I’m not at all certain of that.
Exactly. It's the typical BS excuse game companies have been trying to use for over a decade, and nobody should believe it. Linux gamers are not looking for "support". They want a binary. And a server that doesn't actively thwart them because of their operating system. That's pretty much it. And thanks to cross platform development getting easier and easier, that binary is in more and more cases trivial to produce.
Further promoting 'Linux = Hacker' mentality. As if nobody could ever cheat on Windows, which they already do.
I honestly believe that companies which dont support linux are made of inexperienced people, be it management or engineers. It’s such a basic requirement that your app whatever it may be should be cross platform.
I think it is the opposite. These companies are run by experienced businesspeople who know what platforms have a positive ROI and which do not.
sure....and yet....Linux came before many of these 'businesses' and many are long lived beyond the 'bankruptcies'
But does that mean while those businesses existed that Linux would have had a positive affect on their businesses' bottom line?
edit: Because the way I interpreted your comment was that not supporting Linux is directly responsible for a lot of gaming companies' downfall.
edit: Because the way I interpreted your comment was that not supporting Linux is directly responsible for a lot of gaming companies' downfall.
it seems that running an anticheat is greater priority than a linux client
{{Even Wine support is difficult because of anti-cheat. As wonderful as it would be to allow Roblox under Wine, the number of users who would take advantage of that is minuscule compared with our other platforms, and it’s not worthwhile if it makes it easy for exploiters to cheat.}}
give cheaters a cheat server to cheat on, get harsh on cheating in the no cheat server, get rid of anticheat, loose its problems
{{Even Wine support is difficult because of anti-cheat. As wonderful as it would be to allow Roblox under Wine, the number of users who would take advantage of that is minuscule compared with our other platforms, and it’s not worthwhile if it makes it easy for exploiters to cheat.}}
give cheaters a cheat server to cheat on, get harsh on cheating in the no cheat server, get rid of anticheat, loose its problems
>it seems that running an anticheat is greater priority than a linux client
Yes. Unless you have a better way of mitigating the cheaters, you'll find this to be the preferred choice by almost everyone. In this bubble, people are going to decry the loss of control. But in their market, the problem has gotten so bad, that not doing so would rapidly evaporate their entire product.
Yes. Unless you have a better way of mitigating the cheaters, you'll find this to be the preferred choice by almost everyone. In this bubble, people are going to decry the loss of control. But in their market, the problem has gotten so bad, that not doing so would rapidly evaporate their entire product.
And nothing of value was lost.
Roblox is a microtransaction infested hell.
Roblox is a microtransaction infested hell.
The staff response sounds perfectly reasonable. Maybe you should do something else with your day instead of getting mad at a children's game not supporting an uncommon operating system?
Honestly though, I hope they stay off linux and wine. I hope at least some gamers using linux will spend their time on other games. Maybe they'll find some games that aren't full of lootboxes that give children gambling addictions, other games that aren't designed to fill kids with insecurity and FOMO to pressure them into begging for money to spend on endless microtransactions, other games that aren't filled with massive amounts of advertising, other games that don't profit from child labor, or other games that aren't filled with sexual predators.
There are too many great games out there which aren't abusive and hostile to players (both children and adult) for me to be worried about what happens to a scummy game like roblox.