Ask HN: Are VC startups and FANG the only places to earn large sums of money?
Other than FANG, VC-backed startups, and fintech, are there any other places to earn large decent amount of money in tech?
17 comments
Honestly it doesn’t even seem like FAANG is very attractive in terms of comp to quality of life anymore. Or if it ever was. Maybe I’m wrong.
Base comp seems comparable to the Phoenix metro, but TC is jacked due to RSUs.
You have to sell yourself as an idiot-fanatic to those companies; you live and breathe Apple/Amazon life etc. Only to work with engineers who are by no measurable means the top 1% of the industry.
There seem to be really brilliant people who work elsewhere or just own their own business because they have zero tolerance for the absolute stupidity of the hiring and culture at FAANG-likes. They are simply scattered about.
To answer your question, you can’t answer this question without collecting lots of data. Find tech companies, and probing for their compensation packages one way or another. Working with recruiters, collecting job postings, understanding regional TC.
Base comp seems comparable to the Phoenix metro, but TC is jacked due to RSUs.
You have to sell yourself as an idiot-fanatic to those companies; you live and breathe Apple/Amazon life etc. Only to work with engineers who are by no measurable means the top 1% of the industry.
There seem to be really brilliant people who work elsewhere or just own their own business because they have zero tolerance for the absolute stupidity of the hiring and culture at FAANG-likes. They are simply scattered about.
To answer your question, you can’t answer this question without collecting lots of data. Find tech companies, and probing for their compensation packages one way or another. Working with recruiters, collecting job postings, understanding regional TC.
FAANG at this point is as diverse as the whole startup landscape. Google and Amazon have their fingers in a lot of stuff, attracting a wide range of developers, with plenty of variability in things like management quality, quality of developers, on-call stress, uniqueness of work, e.t.c.
Its very possible to find a good team within those (with Amazon probably being easier then others since it seems that they have the best intra-company transfer program), and its very possible to be stuck on a shit team with no free time.
I would say that FAANG still wins in the metric of raw dollar/hour of actual work. You can find teams with budget to coast on, develop simple software, while getting paid at standard company rates for the levels.
Its very possible to find a good team within those (with Amazon probably being easier then others since it seems that they have the best intra-company transfer program), and its very possible to be stuck on a shit team with no free time.
I would say that FAANG still wins in the metric of raw dollar/hour of actual work. You can find teams with budget to coast on, develop simple software, while getting paid at standard company rates for the levels.
Some others that come to mind:
1. consulting
2. IT service firms (you have to be the owner of course)
3. being experienced in a really boring but useful niche: e.g. Wordpress plugins
4. having a cousin who works for the local gov and can help you win IT contracts
I've heard for 4) you don't even need a cousin and that so few people bid on stuff you can do well. The problem is that you'd need to get setup to bid on the contracts which afaik is a huge pia.
No money in the world could bring me back to wordpress plugin developement. What an actual clusterfuck that shit was. Done it for 2 years on my first internship... I never want to return to that hellish place. Php yikers
Similarly, no chance I’m ever going back to government work. It’s so slow to get anything done. So many approvals and nitpicking and meetings to talk about nothing.. I went back to try to bid on a contract right before Covid and immediately noped my way out of there because I forgot that the feds already have a contractor decided. the bidding process is just a sham to cherry-pick the good engineers from a struggling firm
What do you do now? I'm currently in gov but it's not my favorite, for the reasons you mentioned...
Hey sorry for the late reply. I was doing software engineering for a FAANG but that ended earlier this year for my regularly scheduled sabbatical. I have been spending the last few months doing market research and building an open source cloud platform for giggles
What's a "large sum"? If you compare how relatively spoiled we software engineers are to other (even white collar) careers, we're doing pretty darn well. Even if you're making super-low-end in the US at like $80k, many people in other careers would never dream to pull that much. Many of us are comfortably pulling $120k-$170k and that's unfathomable to many people. In everywhere but (maybe) the most expensive city centers in America, that's a very, very good life.
I'm assuming "large sums of money" here means (at least) $250k+. I guess I start to ask "how much is enough"?
I'm assuming "large sums of money" here means (at least) $250k+. I guess I start to ask "how much is enough"?
Putting it out here... lower-end in the US $80k is basically an average salary in EU.
What the hell? 80k is super salary in vast majority of EU.
>$80k is basically an average salary in EU
80k is a very good salary in the EU. It's a senior dev salary outside of high-CoL tech hubs.
80k is a very good salary in the EU. It's a senior dev salary outside of high-CoL tech hubs.
Depends on the country Spain would be closer to 30 or 40k for example?
Quantitative trading firms like Two Sigma, Jane Street
+1 quant trading firms with a focus on functional programming languages
In terms of a stable job with reasonable hours out of undergrad, engineers at HFT/prop market making firms make an absurd amount of money. I know people only 2 years out of undergrad who are raking in nearly $400k annually with 6 weeks of paid vacation and typically work less than 50-60 hours weekly.
Landing one of these gigs makes FANG look like a McDonald’s open interview. You need to be an expert in terms of mathematical theory without sacrificing the ability to be pragmatic in real world situations (ie a sociopath…)
Landing one of these gigs makes FANG look like a McDonald’s open interview. You need to be an expert in terms of mathematical theory without sacrificing the ability to be pragmatic in real world situations (ie a sociopath…)
That amount of vacation is good, but is 10 hours a day really considered reasonable"?
for $400k? yes definitely.
I'm not asking whether it's worth it for the money. OP said "for a job with reasonable hours, hft pays a lot". That suggests they think 10 hours a day is reasonable, independently of the salary.
I don't think it suggests anything other than 10 hours being reasonable when you're paid $400k. Why would it be a separate thing? Everything hinges on the money. It's not reasonable to work 10 hours a day for $40k, but that's very much not the case for $400k.
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I also worked at a top quant firm, and as others have mentioned no one is a sociopath lol, but they are really smart.
Also quant interviews are harder than FAANG, but not because they require math. Maybe that is the case for QR or Trading interviews, but I've interviewed for SWE positions at multiple places (Citadel, JS, HRT, Optiver, IMC, etc.) and none of them asked me complex math theory.
SWE interviews (at some places) ime are harder since they focus not only on algorithmic thinking, but deep knowledge on how your program and language work. Questions like: "How does malloc work at a OS level", "implement this STD object/data structure", "how does python garbage collection work", and OS questions are typical things to be asked.
If the interviews are algorthmic focused, the questions are usually harder than FAANG leetcode and require a clean and correct solution with minimal hand holding.
Also quant interviews are harder than FAANG, but not because they require math. Maybe that is the case for QR or Trading interviews, but I've interviewed for SWE positions at multiple places (Citadel, JS, HRT, Optiver, IMC, etc.) and none of them asked me complex math theory.
SWE interviews (at some places) ime are harder since they focus not only on algorithmic thinking, but deep knowledge on how your program and language work. Questions like: "How does malloc work at a OS level", "implement this STD object/data structure", "how does python garbage collection work", and OS questions are typical things to be asked.
If the interviews are algorthmic focused, the questions are usually harder than FAANG leetcode and require a clean and correct solution with minimal hand holding.
I work at HRT and have met many geniuses and zero sociopaths.
What does HRT stand for?
Hudson River Trading, HFT has a lot more status games around intelligence. An interviewer from HRT was playing those kind of games w/ me which really turned me off.
Another HFT firm, Hudson River Trading - https://www.hudsonrivertrading.com/
I also work at HRT and met zero geniuses and zero sociopaths. (Clearly you're at a better firm than me...)
I have however met a lot of very smart people.
I have however met a lot of very smart people.
ditto / read max dama
Not even close. In fact there's a whole universe of enterprise focused consulting that pays a lot of money for experienced developers. Think SAP, Oracle, Cisco, Salesforce, etc. consultants that lead 9 figure projects.
What kind of responsibilities do these consultants have? How do I find what these jobs?
Many market trading firms and hedge funds pay their engineers about the same as they'd make in FAANG, in all cash. However, you're locked to another high cost of living city (NYC) unless you work in commodities, which is in Chicago (cold six months of the year), or you work in oil/gas which is in Houston, TX (muggy for 8-9 months of the year, and you're also driving _literally everywhere_).
If you're a people person and are willing to travel, you can make a lot of money in tech sales.
If you're not a people person but are (really) good with tech and are willing to travel, you can make a lot of (but not FAANG-tier) money in consulting or pre-sales.
The best part about these two options is that you can escape the need to live in a city with a very high cost of living. Many of my peers make a lot of money but live in crazy cheap cities. Just have to be willing to be near an airport (about an hour away is good).
I hear that engineers working at defense contractors can make ridiculous money as well, but you're working at the speed of the government, most of the "good" work requires a government clearance, and the tech gets older as you go up in clearance level. You're also, more than likely, going to work on things that kill people or save people from being killed, in some way or another.
To quantify, "a lot of money" to me means >$250k/year.
If you're a people person and are willing to travel, you can make a lot of money in tech sales.
If you're not a people person but are (really) good with tech and are willing to travel, you can make a lot of (but not FAANG-tier) money in consulting or pre-sales.
The best part about these two options is that you can escape the need to live in a city with a very high cost of living. Many of my peers make a lot of money but live in crazy cheap cities. Just have to be willing to be near an airport (about an hour away is good).
I hear that engineers working at defense contractors can make ridiculous money as well, but you're working at the speed of the government, most of the "good" work requires a government clearance, and the tech gets older as you go up in clearance level. You're also, more than likely, going to work on things that kill people or save people from being killed, in some way or another.
To quantify, "a lot of money" to me means >$250k/year.
What is a large amount of money?
I generally don't like talking to recruiters, but that is probably the one question you should ask them.
I generally don't like talking to recruiters, but that is probably the one question you should ask them.
I make computer vision edge devices, this is my second year doing it and on target for 0.5M revenue this year, without VC money.
I think the secret trick is being really good at what you do.
What I always aim for is to make products and not be an agency.
You can sell a product multiple times per hour, you can sell a person hour only once per hour.
I think the secret trick is being really good at what you do.
What I always aim for is to make products and not be an agency.
You can sell a product multiple times per hour, you can sell a person hour only once per hour.
large employee pay is driven significantly by revenue per employee + margins (or significant money pumped into it for whatever other reason, ie crypto at least some time ago) imo.
FANG, VC-backed startups, and fintech have them, there are others as well, although you need to look at what the specific companies do in addition to overall industry trends. one that seems like it would fit high revenue per employee + margins is oil and gas for example.
specializing helps (ie data science, DevSecOps, etc) on the engineering side
you can also take home millions as an employee if you're in like the top 1% of salespeople and at a company with a good product/commission plan in likely any industry, although it's not for most people and if you fail you will probably make less than the pre-career transition.
FANG, VC-backed startups, and fintech have them, there are others as well, although you need to look at what the specific companies do in addition to overall industry trends. one that seems like it would fit high revenue per employee + margins is oil and gas for example.
specializing helps (ie data science, DevSecOps, etc) on the engineering side
you can also take home millions as an employee if you're in like the top 1% of salespeople and at a company with a good product/commission plan in likely any industry, although it's not for most people and if you fail you will probably make less than the pre-career transition.
Freelancing can earn you FAANG Salaries on your own terms, in much much lower COL and with lower taxes. If you earn 300K in a low tax (say 10%), low COL country that is same purchasing power as earning 1.5 to 2 Million in SF or any other HCOL area.
How do you figure? 1.5M can buy you an entire home in SF. The cost of everything else does not really scale higher in SF so the rest of your compensation is left to you to save.
300K buys you a Home or two in every low COL area. A 20$ uber ride in SF is 2$ here. Sure Electronics are about same, but all else is between 2 and 10 times cheaper
Where do you live that an Uber costs $2? What could the cost of labor possibly be for that to even work out?
Romania
I would include trading firms and some hedge funds in this list as well.
Define large sums of money.
levels.fyi has the salaries for FAANGs, but also other places. Plenty of juicy salaries in non-FAANGs.
Sales -- esp. SaaS -- can make crazy money. Close a big deal and walk home with 100k, and possibly residuals if they keep re-upping.
Own any business, be it in tech, or whatever. I've personally known plumbers who own their own business and make over $300k a year and only go out in calls a couple of times a week -- their guys do the rest.
Also know several lawyers -- rough field, btw -- but they have won cases and earned fees in the hundreds of thousands of dollars (probate issues, IIRC). Not the story for a lot of lawyers, most don't make anything amazing, but that's true for most fields: for every startup angel who makes it big there are plenty of engineers and founders who don't get shit; a lot of baseball players never make it out of the minors...
levels.fyi has the salaries for FAANGs, but also other places. Plenty of juicy salaries in non-FAANGs.
Sales -- esp. SaaS -- can make crazy money. Close a big deal and walk home with 100k, and possibly residuals if they keep re-upping.
Own any business, be it in tech, or whatever. I've personally known plumbers who own their own business and make over $300k a year and only go out in calls a couple of times a week -- their guys do the rest.
Also know several lawyers -- rough field, btw -- but they have won cases and earned fees in the hundreds of thousands of dollars (probate issues, IIRC). Not the story for a lot of lawyers, most don't make anything amazing, but that's true for most fields: for every startup angel who makes it big there are plenty of engineers and founders who don't get shit; a lot of baseball players never make it out of the minors...
There's a lot to recommend sales as a place to make money -- it's where the money comes from :) But to make big bucks you need to grok 2 things:
- How to optimize your comp structure (which could be fun for nerds) especially around accelerators. If you're going to land 2 huge deals in 2023 and you manage to get them both in the same quarter, you might make +25% over them being split across the year.
- Selling the value to the customer vs the features (disclaimer, I have a startup to help with this) a lot of nerds are very aware of what the product does, but a little less eager to listen to the prospect's needs.
- How to optimize your comp structure (which could be fun for nerds) especially around accelerators. If you're going to land 2 huge deals in 2023 and you manage to get them both in the same quarter, you might make +25% over them being split across the year.
- Selling the value to the customer vs the features (disclaimer, I have a startup to help with this) a lot of nerds are very aware of what the product does, but a little less eager to listen to the prospect's needs.
B2B/industrial sales can be huge if you can accept the insecurity of operating as an independent rep. 5-20% commission on sales where a single unit is $500k+.
Generally speaking, you can make a ton of money in almost any field, but there is a trade off between “guaranteed” earnings and “opportunistic” income. The latter is often uncapped but is more random and requires the discipline to sustain yourself between opportunities and quickly capitalize when one appears.
Generally speaking, you can make a ton of money in almost any field, but there is a trade off between “guaranteed” earnings and “opportunistic” income. The latter is often uncapped but is more random and requires the discipline to sustain yourself between opportunities and quickly capitalize when one appears.
Software Sales, Security, DevOps / SRE.
Defense Contracting
1. Work within the law
2. Make lots of money
3. Enjoy your job
Choose any two.
2. Make lots of money
3. Enjoy your job
Choose any two.
There's plenty of unethical, but perfectly legal stuff. The finance industry, gambling, addictive games with microtransactions, political and defense contracts. Or you can take something fine and push it past ethical boundaries, e.g. media, food.
gambling, crypto comes to mind
By a long shot, no.
FAANG sets tempo for salaries for every other company. Other companies might not reach that level of craziness, but many do end up near a similar bar.
FAANG sets tempo for salaries for every other company. Other companies might not reach that level of craziness, but many do end up near a similar bar.