Show HN: my weekend project, understanding the Silk Road anonymous marketplace(burntbrunch.github.com)
burntbrunch.github.com
Show HN: my weekend project, understanding the Silk Road anonymous marketplace
http://burntbrunch.github.com/Silk-Rabbit-Hole/html/
This was more of a sandbox to play with Raphael and Flot than anything else but I think there are some interesting statistics in there. It'd be awesome to do this over time but I really don't have the spare time required.
37 comments
Note that the data is heavily skewed -- 77% of all SR listings apparently are for one UK seller, who probably just had the misfortune to pick that day to flog his wares. You'd need to automate data retrieval and average it over a few months to get a better picture.
(edit: listings, not transactions; thanks archivator for the correction)
(edit: listings, not transactions; thanks archivator for the correction)
You mean the listings are heavily skewed - this is not about transactions but listed items on the marketplace.
Interesting data to scrape would be the reviews. Since the reviews are tied to the actual sales, it could give some kind of estimate what kind of sales volume we are talking about.
How is payment received and goods delivered? Since you can't ship goods and take delivery via Tor it seems absurd to use strong encryption for communication when you're so vulnerable taking delivery. I haven't used silk road so I might be missing something, but I'd love to learn how they get around that.
Payment is done with bitcoin. For the delivery, I think the idea is that even if the package is intercepted and your address is on it, it cannot be proven that you actually ordered it.
I don't know if such a defense would hold up. It might depend on local laws. But it does make sense because otherwise you could get your enemies into trouble just by sending them unwanted illegal goods.
I don't know if such a defense would hold up. It might depend on local laws. But it does make sense because otherwise you could get your enemies into trouble just by sending them unwanted illegal goods.
Payment is done primarily with Bitcoin. Goods are delivered primarily using the post (and rubber gloves).
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So there is a total of just about ~50-80 sellers?
I guess most bigger cities have far more drug sellers than Silk Road.
But I would love to see more timeline based developments, i.e. if the market is shrinking or expanding etc. Otherwise great weekend project!
Bigger cities? Hell, there were more than 50 dealers at my college alone. It had 4,000 students and was several hours from any metropolitan area to speak of.
Then again, the selection probably doesn't compare to the Silk Road or other services.
Then again, the selection probably doesn't compare to the Silk Road or other services.
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Interesting. I didn't know India was well represented there...
Nice bar charts. How were they made?
Looks like jquery.flot was used from glancing at the source http://code.google.com/p/flot/
it's a total shame people have to resort to markets like this -- let's have a bar chart comparing the number of murders in a war sponsored by the US to the number of overdoses from drugs
Are you serious? Extremely few people "resort to this." The Silk Road is absolutely miniscule compared to the overall drug market.
I'm willing to bet that if I asked every person in my 5-floor walkup, I'd come out with a list of dealers comparable in size to the silk road.
I'm willing to bet that if I asked every person in my 5-floor walkup, I'd come out with a list of dealers comparable in size to the silk road.
Wow, this is pretty interesting. Perhaps you should approach Interpol and see if they would be interested in funding further development?
http://www.interpol.int/en
To the down-voters. I had not considered that my suggestion could negatively impact your drug sales. My sincerest sarcastic apologies
The reason you're getting downvoted may be related to the fact that this is not data Interpol would be in the least interested in. What they need are actual transactions/shipments/links to people, not some rather shallow stats extracted from a month-old copy of listings.
I'd be really impressed if someone actually runs a Bitcoin client that correlates transactions with prices from SR. Since most sellers select prices in USD, the values in BC are usually not nice and round. Then, you could start creating a profile of Bitcoin users and link them with given certainty to SR accounts. Now, that might be of interest to Interpol/local agencies.
I'd be really impressed if someone actually runs a Bitcoin client that correlates transactions with prices from SR. Since most sellers select prices in USD, the values in BC are usually not nice and round. Then, you could start creating a profile of Bitcoin users and link them with given certainty to SR accounts. Now, that might be of interest to Interpol/local agencies.
That's a stupid idea; helping law enforcement do their jobs. THey have large budgets, they can figure this shit out on their own and there's no need to help them oppress your fellow human. Drug laws in most countries are insanely stupid where non-violent drug offenders are locked up for a long time with violent offenders.
You should consider that not everyone agrees with your opinion. That doesn't make them stupid.
They do not always have large budgets. But for those agencies that do, why can't they invest in projects such as this?
I'm still trying to figure out why people are against practical applications of this project. It's datamining illegal online activities. Isn't law enforcement a no brainer here?
Please let me know what I'm missing.
I'm still trying to figure out why people are against practical applications of this project. It's datamining illegal online activities. Isn't law enforcement a no brainer here?
Please let me know what I'm missing.
I apologize if I seem harsh in my comments regarding this subject.
The practical applications will be abused. There are already projects by the CIA and NSA to massively monitor various communications platforms. The datamining isn't of only illegal activities, it's datamining of everything.
It's just not as simple as "datamine illegal online activities". You're basically going to have to monitor everyone using bitcoin, and then monitor all of silkroad, but once the users catch wind of surveillance they'll abandon it and move elsewhere and now you might as well monitor freaking everything to catch them.
You should check out the idea of a panopticon and Michael Foucalt's writing on it. Helping to create this project furthers the idea of a panopticon and that's a scary thing. The panopticon is a building that forces people in it to behave by having complete transparency. If you're watched all the time, you're less likely to do something illegal or morally wrong. Maybe that's a bit too philosophical for this discussion... http://cartome.org/foucault.htm
The practical applications will be abused. There are already projects by the CIA and NSA to massively monitor various communications platforms. The datamining isn't of only illegal activities, it's datamining of everything.
It's just not as simple as "datamine illegal online activities". You're basically going to have to monitor everyone using bitcoin, and then monitor all of silkroad, but once the users catch wind of surveillance they'll abandon it and move elsewhere and now you might as well monitor freaking everything to catch them.
You should check out the idea of a panopticon and Michael Foucalt's writing on it. Helping to create this project furthers the idea of a panopticon and that's a scary thing. The panopticon is a building that forces people in it to behave by having complete transparency. If you're watched all the time, you're less likely to do something illegal or morally wrong. Maybe that's a bit too philosophical for this discussion... http://cartome.org/foucault.htm
Judging from past conversations HN has had about things like Silk Road, psilocybin experiments, SOPA/Protect IP, Wikileaks, surveillance, and censorship, the majority have expressed a vehement moral opposition to helping "oppressors" of any kind. They'd probably see writing software for law enforcement the same way you might see writing software for terrorists (though they'd be opposed to writing software for terrorists, too).
It does make them stupid when they don't consider how much harm has been caused by people helping the government or law enforcement to implement things that cross ethical and moral lines.
Law enforcement agencies use contractors and buy software all the time...
Are you saying that's not a valid market to target?
Or do you have ideological objections to selling work and products for the purposes of enforcing laws you personally disagree with?
I personally (and I hope most of the people on this site) would take issue with building and selling products that had no legitimate use other than torture. But I have no problem selling software that could be used to gather information and profile suspected drug dealers or others breaking the established law of the land; even if I disagree with drug prohibition as a policy.
Are you saying that's not a valid market to target?
Or do you have ideological objections to selling work and products for the purposes of enforcing laws you personally disagree with?
I personally (and I hope most of the people on this site) would take issue with building and selling products that had no legitimate use other than torture. But I have no problem selling software that could be used to gather information and profile suspected drug dealers or others breaking the established law of the land; even if I disagree with drug prohibition as a policy.
The ideology that you subscribe to is capitalism which says that markets and profits rule. Your ideology is in line with law enforcements. My objections are of course ideologically because I'm opposed to the ideology of capitalism.
You cannot even help them gather information and profile suspected drug dealers because that technology and that infrastructure will be abused and will be turned on everyone else. It already has been.
I disagree with drug prohibition but I'm more in disagreement with the future potential abuses of the products created for this purpose.
You cannot even help them gather information and profile suspected drug dealers because that technology and that infrastructure will be abused and will be turned on everyone else. It already has been.
I disagree with drug prohibition but I'm more in disagreement with the future potential abuses of the products created for this purpose.
Why would they not be interested? I happen to interact with them from time to time. Now, I can't say for sure, but I would imagine this is something they would certainly be interested in.
Oh thank god you're here to police what I (am able to buy and then) put in my own body. Your sarcasm is self righteous and doesn't flatter you.
While I don't agree with you, I admit my comment was not productive. I guess I was just unprepared for the backlash. I thought my Interpol suggestion was pretty neutral.
I've been writing software for law enforcement for about 7ish years now. My work helps monitor and track DNA samples through a forensic lab. I'm proud to be helping law enforcement this way. My work helps with murders, sexual assaults, break and enters.
Like I said, I saw this project, and thought I would make a suggestion that might help the developer bring it to the next level. It really had nothing to do with my personal beliefs pertaining to drug laws.
I've been writing software for law enforcement for about 7ish years now. My work helps monitor and track DNA samples through a forensic lab. I'm proud to be helping law enforcement this way. My work helps with murders, sexual assaults, break and enters.
Like I said, I saw this project, and thought I would make a suggestion that might help the developer bring it to the next level. It really had nothing to do with my personal beliefs pertaining to drug laws.
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Which part do you not agree with exactly? Personal choice?
If your lab works to stop and solve murders, fine, but my drug use (or lack there of) isn't hurting anyone, yet I have to pay a non-trivial amount in taxes to have peoples' personal choices persecuted.
If your lab works to stop and solve murders, fine, but my drug use (or lack there of) isn't hurting anyone, yet I have to pay a non-trivial amount in taxes to have peoples' personal choices persecuted.
I was not agreeing with your comment that I was policing you.
As for my personal beliefs, like everything in life, it's a balance. Do I want society telling me I can't smoke weed, no. In fact, I don't really want society telling me what to do, period.
On the other hand, we all have to live together, and so we all need to agree on some rules to live by to protect each other and society at large. There are some obvious rules, like let's all try not to murder and rape each other.
Should drugs be illegal? I don't know. What impact would legalization have on our society? Well, that's the question isn't it? And the debate rages on.
The debate rages on, but there is a lot of logic, as well as empirical evidence that suggests, at the very least the War on Drugs is, in the nicest light, an immense waste of money, and an increasor of violence. As well as other countries that suggest that drugs being illegal is not best for society (Portugal).
In this case, attempting to shut down Silk Road seems like nothing but trying to police what I do that affects no one else. (In fact, the response to this, "anything can be sold on SR, weapons, etc", feeds back into the problems caused by drugs being illegal).
In this case, attempting to shut down Silk Road seems like nothing but trying to police what I do that affects no one else. (In fact, the response to this, "anything can be sold on SR, weapons, etc", feeds back into the problems caused by drugs being illegal).
Are you aware of any countries that have completely legalized drugs? I'm not saying this to prove a point, in fact I'd love to see it happen. It would be the perfect way to judge social impact.
>As well as other countries that suggest that drugs being illegal is not best for society (Portugal).
Yes. Portugal. It has been quite successful. Well, decriminalization, but good enough.
Yes. Portugal. It has been quite successful. Well, decriminalization, but good enough.