It Could Be Old Age, or It Could Be Low B12(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
It Could Be Old Age, or It Could Be Low B12
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/29/health/vitamin-b12-deficiency-can-cause-symptoms-that-mimic-aging.html?src=me&ref=general
27 comments
Yes most every vegan knows about B12 supplementation. People who don't know the vegan viewpoint might view this article as critical to us.
Keep in mind most people are not vegans. The majority of their audience may not be aware that vegans would require B12 supplementation. Given the article's subject, mentioning this as an aside fits the context very well. I read that as simply informational more so than critical.
Keep in mind most people are not vegans. The majority of their audience may not be aware that vegans would require B12 supplementation. Given the article's subject, mentioning this as an aside fits the context very well. I read that as simply informational more so than critical.
>They seem to be saying "Vegans who don't take supplements or don't eat some esoteric cereal for breakfast every day will become demented."
Esoteric!? Corn Flakes, All-Bran or Raisin Bran are about as far from esoteric as you can get. All three cereals show up near the top of the list of B12 sources in the USDA Nutrient Database PDF linked elsewhere in this thread and all three have been around since my great-grandparent's generation or longer. I'm not sure how long the vitamin fortification has been going on, but it too is very widespread.
Esoteric!? Corn Flakes, All-Bran or Raisin Bran are about as far from esoteric as you can get. All three cereals show up near the top of the list of B12 sources in the USDA Nutrient Database PDF linked elsewhere in this thread and all three have been around since my great-grandparent's generation or longer. I'm not sure how long the vitamin fortification has been going on, but it too is very widespread.
Your comment celebrates our grain based ag-industrial complex a bit too much. I know that a lot of health problems were eased by throwing vitamin and mineral supplements into packaged foods but today, it is this over-processed food that is making us sick and the solution isn't just routing another pipe into the vat at the frozen lasagne factory.
Also, "go the way of vitamin D" isn't a good outcome. There is a lot of room between "oh my god my kid has rickets" and getting "enough" vitamin D. We who dwell indoors in the north need way more vitamin D supplements than what we might get in enriched foods. And if we avoid those processed foods, I guess we need even more D (even if it comes from the same ag-industrial complex, I suppose).
Also, "go the way of vitamin D" isn't a good outcome. There is a lot of room between "oh my god my kid has rickets" and getting "enough" vitamin D. We who dwell indoors in the north need way more vitamin D supplements than what we might get in enriched foods. And if we avoid those processed foods, I guess we need even more D (even if it comes from the same ag-industrial complex, I suppose).
Lack of sufficient B12 also causes one to erroneously believe that they are being slighted by the mass media.
Sneak, if you think the media, especially the NYT, does their job well and reports without bias, you're sheltered and ignorant.
It's also surprisingly bad that you go around defending the media and calling others "erroneous" who call the authenticity of the reporting into question. Agribusiness is one of the largest lobby groups in America. Do you know how lobbyists get their agenda across? One of their most successful ways is to pay journalists. This is simple PR expenditure for them. And it works. And people like you defend them.
And you seem to making some jab at me lacking B12 as if my veganism threatens you. I see this all the time with people who are insecure in their own opinions.
It's also surprisingly bad that you go around defending the media and calling others "erroneous" who call the authenticity of the reporting into question. Agribusiness is one of the largest lobby groups in America. Do you know how lobbyists get their agenda across? One of their most successful ways is to pay journalists. This is simple PR expenditure for them. And it works. And people like you defend them.
And you seem to making some jab at me lacking B12 as if my veganism threatens you. I see this all the time with people who are insecure in their own opinions.
Vitamin D deficiency is rare? http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/26/us-vitamind-heartd...
> Analyzing data on more than 10,000 patients, University of Kansas researchers found that 70 percent were deficient in vitamin D and they were at significantly higher risk for a variety of heart diseases.
> Analyzing data on more than 10,000 patients, University of Kansas researchers found that 70 percent were deficient in vitamin D and they were at significantly higher risk for a variety of heart diseases.
Right, D deficiency is actually quite common, particularly among certain ethnic/racial groups.
B12 deficiency is almost unheard of outside fairly uncommon genetic disorders or areas of extreme famine (or persons with extremely compromised diets like alcoholics, Bulimia nervosa, Anorexia nervosa, etc.) and until the last few decades people simply didn't live long enough to start to have B12 deficiencies caused by age.
The body requires so little B12, and the source of it is so readily available, and you don't even need to eat foods rich in it every day, that even in absolutely undeveloped countries, people are able to readily find sources of B12.
As omnivores we evolved in a way that we can't synthesize B12 internally so we must eat food sources that contain it.
Thanks to the miracles of modern food science even people who purposefully avoid the one source of B12 we evolved over millions of years to eat can find foods artificially enriched with it (take that all natural diet!)
B12 deficiency is almost unheard of outside fairly uncommon genetic disorders or areas of extreme famine (or persons with extremely compromised diets like alcoholics, Bulimia nervosa, Anorexia nervosa, etc.) and until the last few decades people simply didn't live long enough to start to have B12 deficiencies caused by age.
The body requires so little B12, and the source of it is so readily available, and you don't even need to eat foods rich in it every day, that even in absolutely undeveloped countries, people are able to readily find sources of B12.
As omnivores we evolved in a way that we can't synthesize B12 internally so we must eat food sources that contain it.
Thanks to the miracles of modern food science even people who purposefully avoid the one source of B12 we evolved over millions of years to eat can find foods artificially enriched with it (take that all natural diet!)
Pernicious Anemia, the inability of the body (digestive system specifically) to absorb B12, can be very difficult to detect. An ex-gf had it, and spent two years going to doctors all over the world trying to figure out was wrong with her.
At various times she was diagnosed with a hole in heart (for which invasive open-heart surgery was the cure), auto-immune disease, MS, depression, and other totally worse and completely unrelated conditions. She was suspicious of all and kept getting second opinions until she finally found a doctor who got it right. The treatment is relatively simple, weekly self-administered B12 injections.
So if you find yourself feeling worn, tired, mentally "cloudy"/"fuzzy", neuropathy (fading feeling) in your extremities, or other neuro-related issues, definitely look into this before you investigate more severe conditions.
At various times she was diagnosed with a hole in heart (for which invasive open-heart surgery was the cure), auto-immune disease, MS, depression, and other totally worse and completely unrelated conditions. She was suspicious of all and kept getting second opinions until she finally found a doctor who got it right. The treatment is relatively simple, weekly self-administered B12 injections.
So if you find yourself feeling worn, tired, mentally "cloudy"/"fuzzy", neuropathy (fading feeling) in your extremities, or other neuro-related issues, definitely look into this before you investigate more severe conditions.
Interesting article, especially for those of us who have to problem solve for a living. Also, I didn't realize that stomach antacids (Prilosec, Pepcid, etc) could inhibit the body's ability to absorb B12.
I used to take Prilosec everyday, and although I changed my diet and exercised more, I also started taking B vitamins. After six months I'm about 90% cured of acid reflux and can even eat some things I had to avoid early on.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/303855-b-vitamins-that-sto...
http://www.livestrong.com/article/303855-b-vitamins-that-sto...
Shove it up your nose!
http://www.doctoryourself.com/nasal.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/nasal.html
Antacids can significantly slow the absorption of so many vitamins, minerals, and even prescription meds. It has to do with a liver enzyme that's commonly used to process all sorts of "stuff" (I'm blanking on words this morning). Antacids end up using up a significant portion of that enzyme and there's not much left to process anything else for a while until the antacid is fully metabolized and the enzyme replenished in the liver.
Don't ask me how I know that... It's not a fun answer.
Don't ask me how I know that... It's not a fun answer.
For a list of foods ordered by B-12 content, see:
https://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12354500/Data/SR... [pdf]
From: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=22114
https://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12354500/Data/SR... [pdf]
From: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=22114
Good thing I'm a meataterian! :D
Nutritional yeast on popcorn. It's full of B12. It's usually in the bulk bins at your local grocery store. Kind of an odd cheesy taste, but you get used to it quickly. Most animal products also have a good amount of B12.
Gotta be careful - many nutritional yeasts are fortified with B12, but the yeast product itself doesn't naturally contain B12.
That said, it's yummy stuff.
That said, it's yummy stuff.
You mean most animal products have an odd cheesy taste?
Some good reading on B12:
http://veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12
Totally sloppy journalism. Anecdote followed by fact dropping intended to create the impression that the facts support the conclusion of the anecdote.
You're right, but it still does not change how vitamin b12 deficiency is linked to depressive disorders:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12450964
I found it through: https://www.google.com/search?q=vitamin+b12+depression
The article doesn't mention methyl-b12. Most supplements supply the non-methyl type, which is cheaper and useless. I first learned from it from knowledgeofhealth.com. I passed the info. to an acquaintance. She and her adult daughter finally had the energy to take showers and go back to work. (They used NOW Foods Methyl-B12 and TwinLab Folic Acid caps.)
As much as I dislike NYTimes, at least it got attention on HN. If I had submitted a link to similar data, it would have been ignored since NYTimes gets people's attention. I'm used to it. My idiot relatives ignored me when I told them my cousin could have a vitamin B12 deficiency. This after they took him to some shrink and a medical doctor diagnosed him with... a vitamin b12 deficiency! The only time they get excited for vitamins/supplements is to lose weight or gain energy.
I found it through: https://www.google.com/search?q=vitamin+b12+depression
The article doesn't mention methyl-b12. Most supplements supply the non-methyl type, which is cheaper and useless. I first learned from it from knowledgeofhealth.com. I passed the info. to an acquaintance. She and her adult daughter finally had the energy to take showers and go back to work. (They used NOW Foods Methyl-B12 and TwinLab Folic Acid caps.)
As much as I dislike NYTimes, at least it got attention on HN. If I had submitted a link to similar data, it would have been ignored since NYTimes gets people's attention. I'm used to it. My idiot relatives ignored me when I told them my cousin could have a vitamin B12 deficiency. This after they took him to some shrink and a medical doctor diagnosed him with... a vitamin b12 deficiency! The only time they get excited for vitamins/supplements is to lose weight or gain energy.
Good points. BTW how do I check if the b vitamin supplement I have (which I take occasionally b/c I don't eat much meat) is methyl or non-methyl?
I only made the remark about the journalistic quality b/c lately I've noticed that that exact structure (anecdote -> fact dropping -> implied conclusion) is very commonly used by the Times in all different sections of the paper, and clearly from the success of the paper many people are unaware that they are reading a persuasive piece.
I only made the remark about the journalistic quality b/c lately I've noticed that that exact structure (anecdote -> fact dropping -> implied conclusion) is very commonly used by the Times in all different sections of the paper, and clearly from the success of the paper many people are unaware that they are reading a persuasive piece.
Check the ingredients list on label. If it says, "cyanocobalamin", you got the cheap stuff. If it says, "METHYLcobalamin", you got the good stuff.
I also recommend Purity Products multi-vitamins. Those are the best I found. They put supermarket/drug store namebrands to shame. Just follow the directions on the bottle. (The only reason I stopped taking them was because they are expensive.)
I agree with you on the NYTimes and other major publications, including TV. I remember when they tried to link Vitamin C to breast cancer. Most of the "indie" stuff I read is in a very different format: General overview, laymen's terms, with plenty of citations to studies and research throughout. I then use Google for more verification and expansion on the issue. I found the world is working against you: It's so easy to get mediocre info. and then think the vitamin/supplement claims are just pure hype.
I also recommend Purity Products multi-vitamins. Those are the best I found. They put supermarket/drug store namebrands to shame. Just follow the directions on the bottle. (The only reason I stopped taking them was because they are expensive.)
I agree with you on the NYTimes and other major publications, including TV. I remember when they tried to link Vitamin C to breast cancer. Most of the "indie" stuff I read is in a very different format: General overview, laymen's terms, with plenty of citations to studies and research throughout. I then use Google for more verification and expansion on the issue. I found the world is working against you: It's so easy to get mediocre info. and then think the vitamin/supplement claims are just pure hype.
Are there people who still do not take a multivitamin daily?
Some studies say it doesn't help but I have to think that if someone has a complete deficiency, it must provide a base level of sustenance?
Some studies say it doesn't help but I have to think that if someone has a complete deficiency, it must provide a base level of sustenance?
The most amazing study on nutrition I've ever seen, is where a morbidly obese person did not eat for one year but was kept perfectly healthy with nutrition supplements: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/
He went from 486 to 180 lbs, and kept it off afterwards, only gaining ~16 or so in the next five years.
I would be interested in knowing what nutrients he was supplied to stay alive!
He went from 486 to 180 lbs, and kept it off afterwards, only gaining ~16 or so in the next five years.
I would be interested in knowing what nutrients he was supplied to stay alive!
It looks like basic multivitamins were given.
I've never heard of this solution before, but it seems it would be wise to consider it when contemplating extreme solutions like surgery.
"Patient A.B. aged 27 years, weighed on admission 456 lb (207 kg). During the 382 days of his fast, vitamin supplements were given daily as 'Multivite' (BDH), vitamin C and yeast for the first 10 months and as 'Paladac' (Parke Davis), for the last 3 months. Non-caloric fluids were allowed ad libitum. From Day 93 to Day 162 only, he was given potassium supplements (two effervescent potassium tablets BPC supplying 13 mEq daily) and from Day 345 to Day 355 only he was given sodium supplements (2 5 g sodium chloride daily). No other drug treatment was given. "
I've never heard of this solution before, but it seems it would be wise to consider it when contemplating extreme solutions like surgery.
"Patient A.B. aged 27 years, weighed on admission 456 lb (207 kg). During the 382 days of his fast, vitamin supplements were given daily as 'Multivite' (BDH), vitamin C and yeast for the first 10 months and as 'Paladac' (Parke Davis), for the last 3 months. Non-caloric fluids were allowed ad libitum. From Day 93 to Day 162 only, he was given potassium supplements (two effervescent potassium tablets BPC supplying 13 mEq daily) and from Day 345 to Day 355 only he was given sodium supplements (2 5 g sodium chloride daily). No other drug treatment was given. "
Yes most every vegan knows about B12 supplementation. People who don't know the vegan viewpoint might view this article as critical to us.
Vitamin B12 is the new Vitamin D. In yesteryears, Vitamin D deficiencies were a huge public health concern. Companies, especially milk companies, began fortifying their product with vitamin D and marketing that fact because consumers responded well to "give milk to your kids or they'll get rickets". Now D deficiency is rare. If you read ingredients labels often (and shop at health food stores) like most vegans, you'll have noticed that many, many products are now fortified with B12 and other B vitamins. Even many energy drinks! This article seems pretty misleading by saying vegans "must consume supplements or fortified breakfast cereals to get adequate amounts [of B12]." They seem to be saying "Vegans who don't take supplements or don't eat some esoteric cereal for breakfast every day will become demented." Why mention only "breakfast cereals"? Why not any of the growing number of foods fortified with B12? I guess no article on NYT would be complete without some spin.
I'm glad this was posted in the NYT because B12 deficiency in everyone's diet is a big concern. We as consumers should be aware of which companies are deciding to fortify their products and support those by buying their products. Hopefully this can go the way of Vitamin D.