Pleading with YC: Enough with the political & financial news. More Hacker News please.
37 comments
A continued focus on political articles will attract people who enjoy endless and mostly pointless arguments about politics. It is a path to HN becoming another reddit.
Political articles are like junk food. Tempting while they're right in front of you. A little bit of indulgence is OK. Not good as a steady diet.
PG has said that he thinks he can prevent deterioration of content on HN. I think this problem is actually very difficult. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months.
Political articles are like junk food. Tempting while they're right in front of you. A little bit of indulgence is OK. Not good as a steady diet.
PG has said that he thinks he can prevent deterioration of content on HN. I think this problem is actually very difficult. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months.
While I don't think HN's been too bad in this area at all, the threat of a slippery slope bringing in the trolls is pretty real.
Perhaps an accepted convention of downmodding any discussion of the political aspects of the economic stories is in order? IMHO the economic discussions are pretty relevant to us (esp. things like the capital markets for our VC-loving industry), but this isn't an economics or political site, so the links back to public policy don't really fit here.
Perhaps an accepted convention of downmodding any discussion of the political aspects of the economic stories is in order? IMHO the economic discussions are pretty relevant to us (esp. things like the capital markets for our VC-loving industry), but this isn't an economics or political site, so the links back to public policy don't really fit here.
In almost 600 days, it hasn't happened yet. Even as this worry has been constant, I have seen little to no evidence of this shift.
So how long before we can can the incessant worry? Another 600 days, perhaps?
So how long before we can can the incessant worry? Another 600 days, perhaps?
It could be that the incessant worry has kept it at bay for 600 days. It's hard to tell.
I agree that it probably has. Still, even the techcrunch crunch didn't change things.
PG has said he monitors for drift and hasn't seen it. I presume that if he did he would change the guidelines accordingly.
PG has said he monitors for drift and hasn't seen it. I presume that if he did he would change the guidelines accordingly.
I've definitely seen a gradual shift in the last 600 days. If the shift continues gradually, then yes, this site may be Reddit-lite in 600 days. If the shift accelerates, it could happen sooner than that.
Problem is, of course, this election is huge news. Considering that, are even one in a hundred posts here touching on those issues? What was it last year at this time, one in two hundred posts? That's a difference of 1% vs. .5% of submissions. Frankly, I highly doubt that 1 in 100 posts, right now, touch politics unless your view of politics is so jaded that it infects things like economic collapses.
There may be a shift, but if those numbers are accurate (and I think they're conservative) we're seeing an over reaction to a very minor issue.
There may be a shift, but if those numbers are accurate (and I think they're conservative) we're seeing an over reaction to a very minor issue.
The financial and political news will fade. To be honest I think a lot of it is relevant. The political news is often regarding technology policy. The financial news impacts us all. The economy is going through some really rough times. This affects startups, which is one of the hacker news core subjects.
I have been on hacker news a long time and still don't see a shift or pattern to indicating a decrease quality in news. I think people might be over exaggerating just a little.
Its been said before, if you want to see better content, find it, post it and vote it up.
I have been on hacker news a long time and still don't see a shift or pattern to indicating a decrease quality in news. I think people might be over exaggerating just a little.
Its been said before, if you want to see better content, find it, post it and vote it up.
The financial and political news will fade. To be honest I think a lot of it is relevant. The political news is often regarding technology policy. The financial news impacts us all. The economy is going through some really rough times. This affects startups, which is one of the hacker news core subjects.
I have been on hacker news a long time and still don't see a shift or pattern to indicating a decrease quality in news. I think people might be over exaggerating just a little.
Its been said before, if you want to see better content, find it, post it and vote it up.
I have been on hacker news a long time and still don't see a shift or pattern to indicating a decrease quality in news. I think people might be over exaggerating just a little.
Its been said before, if you want to see better content, find it, post it and vote it up.
The financial and political news will fade. To be honest I think a lot of it is relevant. The political news is often regarding technology policy. The financial news impacts us all. The economy is going through some really rough times. This affects startups, which is one of the hacker news core subjects.
I have been on hacker news a long time and still don't see a shift or pattern to indicating a decrease quality in news. I think people might be over exaggerating just a little.
Its been said before, if you want to see better content, find it, post it and vote it up.
I have been on hacker news a long time and still don't see a shift or pattern to indicating a decrease quality in news. I think people might be over exaggerating just a little.
Its been said before, if you want to see better content, find it, post it and vote it up.
The financial and political news will fade. To be honest I think a lot of it is relevant. The political news is often regarding technology policy. The financial news impacts us all. The economy is going through some really rough times. This affects startups, which is one of the hacker news core subjects.
I have been on hacker news a long time and still don't see a shift or pattern to indicating a decrease quality in news. I think people might be over exaggerating just a little.
Its been said before, if you want to see better content, find it, post it and vote it up.
I have been on hacker news a long time and still don't see a shift or pattern to indicating a decrease quality in news. I think people might be over exaggerating just a little.
Its been said before, if you want to see better content, find it, post it and vote it up.
I think the risk of this is inherently lower considering the unambiguous name of the site. However, everybody here is responsible for the articles being on the front page considering they upvoted them. It's hard for a community to be so singular in its focus.
I think you forgot one major sub category... ...submissions about submissions being off topic.
I don't think business is off topic seeing as this site is half about starting a business
Economics effect those businesses so in a particularly bad week esp. one in which events that haven't happened to the great depression transpire you are going to see some stories about it.
What political news are you talking about? The only posts even remotely politically related was the Palin e-mail story and that was about a vulnerability in Yahoo's password recovery system. Something people writing their own might want to keep in mind. If it had been a sports star who's e-mail had been compromised would that be a "Sports story"
I don't think business is off topic seeing as this site is half about starting a business
Economics effect those businesses so in a particularly bad week esp. one in which events that haven't happened to the great depression transpire you are going to see some stories about it.
What political news are you talking about? The only posts even remotely politically related was the Palin e-mail story and that was about a vulnerability in Yahoo's password recovery system. Something people writing their own might want to keep in mind. If it had been a sports star who's e-mail had been compromised would that be a "Sports story"
Business submissions can dilute the front page. For example, take articles about the current economic environment (mergers, banks dying off) - they suck because:
1) You can read about that stuff everywhere right now (news.google, front of popular magazines).
2) It doesn't really help start my business as it provides little actionable advice.
3) Look at 1) again. I'm not interested in reading about current events on HN. Other sites do a better job of this, and that is not why I come here. Generally, if it appears on the front page of news.google.com, it shouldn't be on this site.
Of course I'm not against biz articles categorically, just the ones that meet the above criteria.
1) You can read about that stuff everywhere right now (news.google, front of popular magazines).
2) It doesn't really help start my business as it provides little actionable advice.
3) Look at 1) again. I'm not interested in reading about current events on HN. Other sites do a better job of this, and that is not why I come here. Generally, if it appears on the front page of news.google.com, it shouldn't be on this site.
Of course I'm not against biz articles categorically, just the ones that meet the above criteria.
You can read about that stuff everywhere right now (news.google, front of popular magazines). => The existing guidelines hint at this by suggesting that if you can find it on certain other sites, it explicitly doesn't belong here.
It doesn't really help start my business as it provides little actionable advice. => Very insightful.
It doesn't really help start my business as it provides little actionable advice. => Very insightful.
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Can we please have the real hn back? I miss it so much.
(Please, let's talk more about programming, less about everything else.)
The only way for you to get the "real" HN back is by submitting and upvoting content you deem appropriate. You've done that well previously. Visiting less often is certainly not going to help.
You're failing to see the positive feedback cycle at work here.
1) Political articles creep in
2) Political articles draw more of the politics crowd
3) Voting power of hacker crowd decreases as a percentage of total votes
4) Submit power of hacker crowd decreases as a percentage of total submits
5) This leads to a slow but steady increase in political articles
6) Go back to 1)
This is not a self-correcting system. It can and will happily veer into irrelevance because there are far more politics/reddit type users out there on the internet than there are hackers on HackerNews.
Hence why we need to apply conscious control to it, not just "submit and vote more".
It is madness to expect the same action in the same circumstances to bring anything other than the same result.
1) Political articles creep in
2) Political articles draw more of the politics crowd
3) Voting power of hacker crowd decreases as a percentage of total votes
4) Submit power of hacker crowd decreases as a percentage of total submits
5) This leads to a slow but steady increase in political articles
6) Go back to 1)
This is not a self-correcting system. It can and will happily veer into irrelevance because there are far more politics/reddit type users out there on the internet than there are hackers on HackerNews.
Hence why we need to apply conscious control to it, not just "submit and vote more".
It is madness to expect the same action in the same circumstances to bring anything other than the same result.
Agreed. As it stands, all it takes for Hacker News to become Reddit is for the hackers to be outvoted by the Reddit crowd. The wildcard factor is PG, who will probably step in more aggressively if and when he thinks quality has slipped too far.
Remember that "hacker" can mean a variety of things. For YCombinator, a "hacker" is a smart person who likes to build great things, usually using the medium of software. For other communities, "hacker" might mean script kiddie, or World of Warcraft gamer, or tech fanboy. So even the current standard - on-topic = interesting to hackers - won't necessarily protect HN.
Remember that "hacker" can mean a variety of things. For YCombinator, a "hacker" is a smart person who likes to build great things, usually using the medium of software. For other communities, "hacker" might mean script kiddie, or World of Warcraft gamer, or tech fanboy. So even the current standard - on-topic = interesting to hackers - won't necessarily protect HN.
He has said he monitors for drift. That he hasn't "stepped in", speaks volumes to me that it isn't necessary - yet.
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What evidence is there for this feedback loop? The one in a hundred political articles? To me, their relative lack, in the current climate, is proof of the opposite conclusion: The strength of this community. Your loop falls apart at #2 because the posts at #1 seldom make it to the front page.
Still, the point remains, the solution isn't fleeing to somewhere else (where the problem will likely repeat). It's sticking around and submitting posts to make the community stronger (by your standards).
Technologically, I think the solution is weighting votes by karma. That would give the initial users more say AND make it harder for new users to push the community around. But that's not our decision here.
Still, the point remains, the solution isn't fleeing to somewhere else (where the problem will likely repeat). It's sticking around and submitting posts to make the community stronger (by your standards).
Technologically, I think the solution is weighting votes by karma. That would give the initial users more say AND make it harder for new users to push the community around. But that's not our decision here.
What evidence is there for this feedback loop?
It is self evident.
It is self evident.
Really? If it were, I'd think you could point to some actual evidence instead of relying on self-evidence.
Reddit, Digg, every other community site which started out with a narrowly focused group and then slowly become popular.
Is that enough actual real world evidence? I can keep listing social sites, that this has happened to, all day long.
Is that enough actual real world evidence? I can keep listing social sites, that this has happened to, all day long.
You haven't pointed to evidence of it happening here. One political post every hundred or so (if that - I doubt it) doesn't tell me the sky is falling.
Testing the predicted feedback loop, especially for #1 and #2, would seem to required actual evidence of #1 and #2 happening here.
Testing the predicted feedback loop, especially for #1 and #2, would seem to required actual evidence of #1 and #2 happening here.
I wasn't going to reply, but I've seen this "One political post every hundred or so" comment from you several times now, and it's simply irrelevant. It is not how many political submissions there have been lately, but how many are reaching the top 30, or even the top 5, and the quality of discussion therein.
When I first joined Hacker News (near the beginning), a political article on the front page was an anomaly; in fact, I can't remember a good example of one. Sure, there were a few things in regards to the importance of Net Neutrality and how it could potentially affect the landscape of the Internet. There were a few about AT&T sharing records with the government, or Google not doing it. These are issues that have direct relevance to startups and "hackers", and there were hardly ever political debates or democrat/republican leanings expressed in the comments. Even then, I remember seeing perhaps one such submission on the front page per month.
Lately, it is strange not to see a few front page political articles per week. Not only that, but these articles are less relevant to our startups and to the lives of non-Americans. And to take the cake, their comments inevitably include at least one political debate thread, a few snarky comments, and a general lack of substance.
Many of the members who are here for hacker-related submissions simply stay away from such topics, and that is apparent from the difference in comment quality. It seems to me that there is a slow shift towards a Hacker News divide: "good" Hacker News submissions where the discussion is interesting and intellectually stimulating, and "bad" Hacker News submissions where the discussion tends more towards the things we're trying to avoid.
In a site called "Hacker News", this divide is unwelcome and senseless. That this submission has over 200 upvotes (not including one by me, by the way) is evidence of that. I would much rather see 3 submissions like this that indicate that the community is fighting back against irrelevance than to see even one submission that is dominated by political debates that could easily happen elsewhere.
People have been talking politics for centuries, and the likelihood that someone here is going to bring up a novel, interesting point is minuscule. In a community that is dominated by programmers, entrepreneurs, and other tech people, I'd much rather see discussion that might actually introduce me to brand new ideas and change my life for the better.
When I first joined Hacker News (near the beginning), a political article on the front page was an anomaly; in fact, I can't remember a good example of one. Sure, there were a few things in regards to the importance of Net Neutrality and how it could potentially affect the landscape of the Internet. There were a few about AT&T sharing records with the government, or Google not doing it. These are issues that have direct relevance to startups and "hackers", and there were hardly ever political debates or democrat/republican leanings expressed in the comments. Even then, I remember seeing perhaps one such submission on the front page per month.
Lately, it is strange not to see a few front page political articles per week. Not only that, but these articles are less relevant to our startups and to the lives of non-Americans. And to take the cake, their comments inevitably include at least one political debate thread, a few snarky comments, and a general lack of substance.
Many of the members who are here for hacker-related submissions simply stay away from such topics, and that is apparent from the difference in comment quality. It seems to me that there is a slow shift towards a Hacker News divide: "good" Hacker News submissions where the discussion is interesting and intellectually stimulating, and "bad" Hacker News submissions where the discussion tends more towards the things we're trying to avoid.
In a site called "Hacker News", this divide is unwelcome and senseless. That this submission has over 200 upvotes (not including one by me, by the way) is evidence of that. I would much rather see 3 submissions like this that indicate that the community is fighting back against irrelevance than to see even one submission that is dominated by political debates that could easily happen elsewhere.
People have been talking politics for centuries, and the likelihood that someone here is going to bring up a novel, interesting point is minuscule. In a community that is dominated by programmers, entrepreneurs, and other tech people, I'd much rather see discussion that might actually introduce me to brand new ideas and change my life for the better.
I agree, let's not continue arguing on the internet.
My hypothesis is: As this place continue to gain in popularity it will continue to become more generic and reddit like.
I hope to be proven wrong.
My hypothesis is: As this place continue to gain in popularity it will continue to become more generic and reddit like.
I hope to be proven wrong.
Obviously you're not alone.
But almost 600 days and with a major election upcoming there have been very few mentions of it. Celebrate the positives!
But almost 600 days and with a major election upcoming there have been very few mentions of it. Celebrate the positives!
Visiting less often is certainly not going to help.
You're right. I'll try to contribute more. (After a few hundred more LOC.)
Feels good just talking about it.
You're right. I'll try to contribute more. (After a few hundred more LOC.)
Feels good just talking about it.
You are welcome :-)
you can't be serious.
is this MySpace?
understand the sentiments, but this is a tad bit ridiculous. everybody talking about doing instead of doing, and getting super excited when someone suggests more talking...
is this MySpace?
understand the sentiments, but this is a tad bit ridiculous. everybody talking about doing instead of doing, and getting super excited when someone suggests more talking...
If you followed digg as close as I did from 05-07 and saw what happened you would feel the same way as the parent. Current HN was digg in early 05/06. Now look at it. It went from articles on computer science/tech at UW/google research/stanford/MSR to MSN/college humor in what seems like a flash because people flocked towards what was popularized instead of technical. I took solace in the fact there was a tech section but all those articles lost any sort of insight because the community fell apart. I recall reading explanations and watching videos about the internals of Map Reduce/GFS/Big Table soon after they were released for publication. Videos from the core kernel development team at MSR (check channel9). Understanding how Microsoft managed their software development teams from people at MS. How to ace alot of algorithm questions at interviews (mapping mazes,sorting,etc). All from digg. I recall having a brief discussion with a person at slashdot about this. I asked them if they were concerned about what digg was doing and if he thought it was the new paradigm. He didnt flinch one bit. Since slashdot was old it had been through this before. It knew that topics would quickly swerve towards "popsugar" type articles real quick. They knew need they needed editorial control and thats why slashdot is still around and kicking. I dont want to be a control freak, I just love HN and try and keep on top of the sources used!
Disclaimer: I commented on this last night in another thread in my defense for being called a sock puppet for voicing my opinion like the parent. But this comment is very relevant here.
Disclaimer: I commented on this last night in another thread in my defense for being called a sock puppet for voicing my opinion like the parent. But this comment is very relevant here.
Your account was created 10 days ago. I don't see how you've interacted with this community enough to accurately judge what direction it's headed. Why not start by submitting stuff you deem worthy? That would be a more fruitful path toward course correction.
You can read a site and not be registered. I've been on this site for months but never chose to register an account. Found out about it on techcrunch about 6 months ago and have been reading every day since. Even shared and discuss it with my boss. Just like on digg, it took me 8 months before I joined. You can see a pattern through observation of submissions. Instead of trying to discredit me by the length of days of my account, why dont you try and just take in my point and reflect on it and then interact with me on what you think. Its a word to the wise. I am not saying panic. Panic is for morons. But many people are aware of the problems with digg and they wont be fixed using simple user guidelines.
Except the only way to influence the direction of this community is by actually participating. And complaining about content does no good especially if you're not submitting content you deem better.
Your right. I'll stop posting comments complaining and go somewhere else. By the way, again, please try and get the point of what people say instead of trying discredit them. If you don't think i'm enough a part of the community to dawn upon you a valid observation then so be it. As if you can't spot a problem only through observation. I won't be posting here any longer. Good job building the community robg.
Instead of going elsewhere, why not simply submit content that you think is better?
As for my complaints on your comments, it's very strange for me to read complaints from someone who has done nothing (quite literally) to fix the problem they're complaining about. You have that power just as much as I do. Why not make use of it?
As for my complaints on your comments, it's very strange for me to read complaints from someone who has done nothing (quite literally) to fix the problem they're complaining about. You have that power just as much as I do. Why not make use of it?
Sometimes you need to express your opinion to start a discussion.
Business and economics are extremely relative to this user base. A core understanding of how the economy is doing, where it's headed, etc. is very important. If Web 2.0 is moving to the enterprise, then understanding what's happening in business is VERY important.
Since this is an entrepreneurial community, this information is significantly more relevant than the 20,000th person asking what to do to start learning LISP.
Since this is an entrepreneurial community, this information is significantly more relevant than the 20,000th person asking what to do to start learning LISP.
I find economics fascinating. The unfortunate fact is, though, that most economic discussions very rapidly degrade into libertarians vs non libertarians or capitalists vs socialists, or something along those lines. Another popular one is Austrian economics vs Mainstream economics.
It's difficult to have a high level discussion on something if you don't agree on a low level.
For example: individuals from the Austrian and Neo-Classical schools will necessarily have a different understanding of the current financial crisis. As such, they'll have to reconcile their underlying theories in order to coherently debate the implications of those theories.
It's rather unfortunate, I think we could largely limit such discussions to just the points relevant to 'hackers,' but I don't think that we could avoid such degeneration altogether.
For example: individuals from the Austrian and Neo-Classical schools will necessarily have a different understanding of the current financial crisis. As such, they'll have to reconcile their underlying theories in order to coherently debate the implications of those theories.
It's rather unfortunate, I think we could largely limit such discussions to just the points relevant to 'hackers,' but I don't think that we could avoid such degeneration altogether.
When everyone's votes are weighted equally, it becomes inevitable that the core users can't keep out the "barbarians at the gate", so to speak. Reddit became so weighed down in politics that a subreddit was created for it, back then. (I think. I wasn't into reddit much at the time.) Now the same thing is happening to Hacker News, as far as being overrun with politics.
Basically, I think Giles Bowkett is right: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/05/summon-monsters-ope... -- I'd incorporate his ideas into a smarter site, if I wanted to waste my life on running it.
Basically, I think Giles Bowkett is right: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/05/summon-monsters-ope... -- I'd incorporate his ideas into a smarter site, if I wanted to waste my life on running it.
Don't let the comments dissuade you from voicing your opinion. I notice that you have 50+ upmods as I write this. Remember that people who agree with you tend to nod. Some nod and upmod. A very, very few write a comment. Whereas people who disagree with you are much more likely to write a comment.
p.s. <ASBESTOS>The only thing more lame than a meta-post complaining about posts are the meta-comments complaining that meta-posts are lame. GET A LIFE, PEOPLE!!!</ASBESTOS>
p.s. <ASBESTOS>The only thing more lame than a meta-post complaining about posts are the meta-comments complaining that meta-posts are lame. GET A LIFE, PEOPLE!!!</ASBESTOS>
If there is one thing more boring than stories about politics, it is self-posts complaining about stuff not being appropriate for News.YC.
And what could be more like reddit than such a completely content-free self-post being reflexively upvoted till it reaches the top spot, with several times more points than the next story?
And what could be more like reddit than such a completely content-free self-post being reflexively upvoted till it reaches the top spot, with several times more points than the next story?
This is our site, if we want more hacker news and less reddit, follow the new page and consistently vote up geeky articles.
The site has thousands of page views every single day, but the top stories routinely get less than 100 votes. The moral of the story: submit good articles and vote up on them. The ratio of voters to lurkers is probably from 1:100 to 1:300. Your votes count. The only way to avoid having an Eternal September is to participate and keep it from happening.
I agree with you, Prakash, I was really surprised to see a "pics" link make it to the front page. I thought about flagging it, but I don't know if that is appropriate or not.
The site has thousands of page views every single day, but the top stories routinely get less than 100 votes. The moral of the story: submit good articles and vote up on them. The ratio of voters to lurkers is probably from 1:100 to 1:300. Your votes count. The only way to avoid having an Eternal September is to participate and keep it from happening.
I agree with you, Prakash, I was really surprised to see a "pics" link make it to the front page. I thought about flagging it, but I don't know if that is appropriate or not.
I constantly check the new page to vote up & flag items. As some other have posted, more people should vote up.
I know you do, prakash. The comment was directed at others, not so much yourself. Sorry for the confusion.
no worries!
I was thinking for the last couple weeks "oh man, now hn has jumped the shark". And as I was reading through some of the comments here, and it occurred to me that while I do keep tabs on the 'new' articles (not trusting the good ones to make their way up) I would only upvote if I thought it was a truly amazing article.
I will change my upvoting habits. I believe the system can indeed work. I will upvote a little bit more often on articles that are very pertinent to this group.
I will change my upvoting habits. I believe the system can indeed work. I will upvote a little bit more often on articles that are very pertinent to this group.
I totally agree that posts have lately strayed far from the original idea(as I understand) of this site.
Last week I was actually tempted to remove it from my RSS reader due to the flood of political and other news stories totally unrelated to startups/programming/hacking/etc.
We don't need another reddit/digg/...
Last week I was actually tempted to remove it from my RSS reader due to the flood of political and other news stories totally unrelated to startups/programming/hacking/etc.
We don't need another reddit/digg/...
Asking others to vote differently and submit different content is lame. It's like complaining about getting down modded.
If you want better content, submit it yourself and upmod it on the new page.
If you want better content, submit it yourself and upmod it on the new page.
While it may seem lame it's entirely within the system. Voicing your opinion with a comment/submission is as acceptable as up and down voting - as far as I am concerned.
Though I do not like to read complaints that much, either.
Though I do not like to read complaints that much, either.
Actually, it's not supposed to be in the system:
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or egregiously offtopic, you can flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.)
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or egregiously offtopic, you can flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.)
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
OK, thanks for pointing that out.
> Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site
Isn't that exactly what you're doing too, though?
Isn't that exactly what you're doing too, though?
The guidelines don't matter for this discussion? It seems to me it's the only thing that should matter. Without them, this site has no focus whatsoever.
No, that's not what I'm saying. Although I agree with the OP that the political stuff is getting dull, I believe you have a point about the guidelines (that means I agree with you). However, complaining that the OP is going against the guidelines and therefore doing the same thing yourself seems somewhat hypocritical. Of course, here I am doing exactly the same thing really.
Surely you could just do what you/others have told the OP to do, and flag the 'submission'?
Surely you could just do what you/others have told the OP to do, and flag the 'submission'?
robg. Regarding the site having focus. I suggest you re-read the guidelines. When the guidelines are as vague as "If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." it's not as easy as just throwing the guidelines at someone.
You're missing the point. The guidelines are the only thing that should matter. Without them, this community has exactly zero form.
It is indeed within the system. I wasn't saying he shouldn't be allowed to post it. I'm saying it's a lame post that I won't upmod.
I agree. The signal to noise ratio isn't helped by adding more noise.
If the "system" includes the guidelines, then it's not within the system.
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Does a submission count as a post?
Guideline-lawyer! :-) I assume that by post, you mean comment.
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site.
(1). I suggest that the "intention of the guideline" is to reduce cluttering the site with meta-discussion, and it would serve this purpose best if comment was construed as including a submission.
(2). in terms of the "letter of the guideline", what is the meaning of the words comments and submissions? The guidelines have separate sections for each, and clearly use the terminology used else on the site, which talks of comments on articles and articles that are submitted. A broader construction of "comments" as "things that comment on other things" is not the literal meaning.
Therefore, I agree that the excerpt about comments does not include submissions, and I was wrong. However, I think it should include submissions. :-) Another argument is that submissions about the site are not "On-topic", by this definition:
On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
I'm not sure that complaining about the site, and attempting to modify other people's behaviour, gratifies one's intellectual curiosity (in contrast, a discussion about how a social site can be run does do this).
However, I think in future, I might leave all such discussions to my betters, and focus on things that I find interesting, instead of trying to "improve" the site.
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site.
(1). I suggest that the "intention of the guideline" is to reduce cluttering the site with meta-discussion, and it would serve this purpose best if comment was construed as including a submission.
(2). in terms of the "letter of the guideline", what is the meaning of the words comments and submissions? The guidelines have separate sections for each, and clearly use the terminology used else on the site, which talks of comments on articles and articles that are submitted. A broader construction of "comments" as "things that comment on other things" is not the literal meaning.
Therefore, I agree that the excerpt about comments does not include submissions, and I was wrong. However, I think it should include submissions. :-) Another argument is that submissions about the site are not "On-topic", by this definition:
On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
I'm not sure that complaining about the site, and attempting to modify other people's behaviour, gratifies one's intellectual curiosity (in contrast, a discussion about how a social site can be run does do this).
However, I think in future, I might leave all such discussions to my betters, and focus on things that I find interesting, instead of trying to "improve" the site.
"I assume that by post, you mean comment."
I feel I've been caught out on my speelling while commenting on someone else's. Shame on me!
"However, I think it should include submissions. :-)"
I agree completely.
I feel I've been caught out on my speelling while commenting on someone else's. Shame on me!
"However, I think it should include submissions. :-)"
I agree completely.
If you want better content, submit it yourself and upmod it on the new page.
I do that pretty much everyday.
I do that pretty much everyday.
It's hard to find good stuff, and sometimes there just isn't that much. This of course leads to a 'crowding out' problem if there's lots of junk being posted - you just can't compete without spending more time searching for content than the junk submitters.
Wrong approach! Appeal to people to start UPVOTING hacker news instead of appealing to people to stop SUBMITTING political news.
You see the subtle difference? One dedicated bad apple can submit a lot of political news, but it will go nowhere if the average opinion of the CROWD is that political news should not be voted up.
You see the subtle difference? One dedicated bad apple can submit a lot of political news, but it will go nowhere if the average opinion of the CROWD is that political news should not be voted up.
Good point. People should upload a lot more often.
On a site where items are simply voted up or down, items are promoted that have the greatest positive emotional impact to the mob. During this political season, this is going to be politics and finance.
You can't flag it. This is stuff that hackers are interested in as you can tell by simply looking at the number of comments and votes. The site is supposed to self-regulate, but no amount of pointing out that the system is flawed seems to make a difference. Instead, you'll get dinged for complaining.
Love the crowd. Love startups and hacking. Think the up-down voting paradigm in long-dead and not crazy about continuously getting into political discussions with people I'd rather be learning from.
You can't flag it. This is stuff that hackers are interested in as you can tell by simply looking at the number of comments and votes. The site is supposed to self-regulate, but no amount of pointing out that the system is flawed seems to make a difference. Instead, you'll get dinged for complaining.
Love the crowd. Love startups and hacking. Think the up-down voting paradigm in long-dead and not crazy about continuously getting into political discussions with people I'd rather be learning from.
Exactly. And if there's say, an article that gets posted about say, the financial crisis, it's nice reading the takes on it from people such as myself, people who are running startups, and it's even greater when someone like pg weighs in on something.
I like to think Hacker News is just what it says, News for Hackers. We have this pseudo-democratic up/down voting systme for a reason. If people don't want things 'off-topic' getting in, then why not just go register a tumblr account and post things you think are 'relevant'.
I like to think Hacker News is just what it says, News for Hackers. We have this pseudo-democratic up/down voting systme for a reason. If people don't want things 'off-topic' getting in, then why not just go register a tumblr account and post things you think are 'relevant'.
It's interesting that you mention "black swans", as one of the reoccurring themes in the book is about "experts" being too close-minded and focused in their own field.
To me "hacker" is more a synonym of "curious" than of "coder", so if someone implies a rule of only submitting "coder news" they should maybe think of changing the name of the site too.
On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or egregiously offtopic, you can flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link.
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Seems to me there's room for the posts you're complaining about, but no room for this post complaining about those submissions. If you don't like them your charge is clear: Use the the 'flag' feature.
Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or egregiously offtopic, you can flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link.
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Seems to me there's room for the posts you're complaining about, but no room for this post complaining about those submissions. If you don't like them your charge is clear: Use the the 'flag' feature.
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site.
Well said, worthy of an upmod for that one line ;-)
Well said, worthy of an upmod for that one line ;-)
I have been flaging things like crazy. People just ignore flagging off-topic submission, the same way people don't upmod enough.
I don't see any reason why you should be flagging like crazy. These posts aren't so ubiquitous as to be over running the site.
Unless you're not using the definition of "off-topic" in the guidelines?
Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
I rarely see posts that meet that criteria.
Unless you're not using the definition of "off-topic" in the guidelines?
Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
I rarely see posts that meet that criteria.
There are quite a few posts under the new page.
I don't even see them there. Early in the morning there's spam to flag, but I'd say 95% of the submissions fit into the guidelines. Of the remaining 5% maybe 10% makes it to the front page. My intuition is we're arguing about .5 to 1%. Even if it's as high as 10%, I still don't think that's significant.
Instead of complaining, why not do a study? Classify all front page submissions for one week. I bet not 1% would touch on politics. For this time of the election cycle, that would be a great indicator of the strength of this community.
I disagree wholeheartedly on economics and business submissions, though.
Instead of complaining, why not do a study? Classify all front page submissions for one week. I bet not 1% would touch on politics. For this time of the election cycle, that would be a great indicator of the strength of this community.
I disagree wholeheartedly on economics and business submissions, though.
Politics has little direct relevance to hackers, in their capacity as hackers.
Economic and financial news may very well have enormous impact and relevance for entrepreneurial hackers, which I think is a large part of the hackers who follow Hacker News.
Economic and financial news may very well have enormous impact and relevance for entrepreneurial hackers, which I think is a large part of the hackers who follow Hacker News.
I kinda agree with the politics.
It seems HN users like US politics, thats fine. But as a guess I'm sure most like p0rn too, it doesn't mean HN should be full of it...
(OK thats a pretty bad example, but you get what I mean...)
It seems HN users like US politics, thats fine. But as a guess I'm sure most like p0rn too, it doesn't mean HN should be full of it...
(OK thats a pretty bad example, but you get what I mean...)
This election is huge. Considering that, I'm actually surprised there haven't been more posts relating to it. If anything, the community does very well in ferreting them out.
Business and economics, I'd argue belong front and center.
Business and economics, I'd argue belong front and center.
Every election seems like the most important election ever at the time. The entire 24 hour news cycle depends on channels like CNN convincing you that what happens today is more important than what happened yesterday.
Truer words were never spoken.
I figured this out about 4 cycles ago. The entire system is rigged to suck you in and be convinced that the future of mankind and the universe is at stake.
Now I try my best to ignore news outlets, especially cable news outlets, during this time of P'on Far. But every time they still suck me in anyway. This time around I was doing some bug fixes and left the convention coverage on. Pretty soon there I was, glued to the set.
Politics is much better (or worse) than sports. The games go on for months, everybody gets involved by the end, both sides try to make the stakes out to be something incredibly huge, millions (or billions) are spent trying to find you everywhere from the subway to the toilet and convince you the other guy abuses old people. Better still? The last few games have been really, really close.
I love it. But it's not HN. :)
I figured this out about 4 cycles ago. The entire system is rigged to suck you in and be convinced that the future of mankind and the universe is at stake.
Now I try my best to ignore news outlets, especially cable news outlets, during this time of P'on Far. But every time they still suck me in anyway. This time around I was doing some bug fixes and left the convention coverage on. Pretty soon there I was, glued to the set.
Politics is much better (or worse) than sports. The games go on for months, everybody gets involved by the end, both sides try to make the stakes out to be something incredibly huge, millions (or billions) are spent trying to find you everywhere from the subway to the toilet and convince you the other guy abuses old people. Better still? The last few games have been really, really close.
I love it. But it's not HN. :)
I don't disagree - but this November is quite different, in kind, from last November. I have no doubt we're seeing a little seepage here, but the relative paucity, given the great noise in the outside environs, gives me greater confidence in this community, not less.
12:13 PDT
4 articles in the top 60 listings on hacker news (and only one on the front page) about financial or political news.
doesn't seem too out-of-whack.
4 articles in the top 60 listings on hacker news (and only one on the front page) about financial or political news.
doesn't seem too out-of-whack.
Or 6.7%.
doesn't seem too out-of-whack.
Most especially considering the what is happening in the world - a major, and highly contested, election and a major financial collapse. If that's the high-water mark, this community really is very strong at resisting the drift tendencies. We should be celebrating that success.
doesn't seem too out-of-whack.
Most especially considering the what is happening in the world - a major, and highly contested, election and a major financial collapse. If that's the high-water mark, this community really is very strong at resisting the drift tendencies. We should be celebrating that success.
+1
All this political crap is putting me off...
All this political crap is putting me off...
How about a "No posts on the economy and/or politics" month? Say, November? :D
Anyone posting on said topics and ignoring the rule will get their karma points reset to 1.
Anyone posting on said topics and ignoring the rule will get their karma points reset to 1.
I just checked and could not find a single article about politics on the main page. Not counting those about political reactions to the financial markets crisis, but even those where only one or two.
Same here. I currently see exactly one political article and that is regarding the Palin hacking fallout, which is relevant to anyone designing a password recovery scheme. Not even one market crisis story.
...Except for this one complaining about them.
...Except for this one complaining about them.
I also second this. I mean recent news about economy is important but I'm not interested in it. Likewise, for politics I can turn to so many other sources. So if there are more people like me then we should see a reduction in frequency of economics/politics related submissions. Lastly, Prakash, I don't think it was a true Black Swan.
I think what it comes down is the HN community's craving for such information. People can submit all sort of information but it's the links that are upmodded that make the cut.
Don't worry it will work itself out. Otherwise just band together with fellow HN users and just upmod the news that your interested in reading. :)
Don't worry it will work itself out. Otherwise just band together with fellow HN users and just upmod the news that your interested in reading. :)
Shameless plug for my site but might be relevant here:
http://news.mandalorian.com
Another slinkset I've come across that might be useful is http://www.justhackit.com
Maybe we need dedicated sites for politics and economics.
I like the principle of Hacker News, but think that with the ties to ycombinator there is an entrepeneurial element that whilst related doesn't strictly go with the hacker element in all cases.
Thankfully unlike Reddit this place hasn't turned into 4chan, complete with old memes.
http://news.mandalorian.com
Another slinkset I've come across that might be useful is http://www.justhackit.com
Maybe we need dedicated sites for politics and economics.
I like the principle of Hacker News, but think that with the ties to ycombinator there is an entrepeneurial element that whilst related doesn't strictly go with the hacker element in all cases.
Thankfully unlike Reddit this place hasn't turned into 4chan, complete with old memes.
I have a beta HN-like site that's focused on business and finance. If you're interested, visit:
http://www.newmogul.com/
and post there.
http://www.newmogul.com/
and post there.
Solution: Vote up more interesting stuff from the new page to rise above the political stories
I haven't read this entire commentary thread, but you could look at a URL submitted to HN, in the Reddit website's categories of finance and politics, and if it's in one of those, you remove it from HN as being non-hackerish.
HN is the last refuge of high-quality, user-submitted articles. The articles here that appear off topic are rare, but usually are extremely well-written and informative.
Digg and Reddit are awful. It's spam central on both those sites.
Digg and Reddit are awful. It's spam central on both those sites.
I agree leave the Politics and Finances at Reddit!! I miss the hacking!
Most of us visiting this site have an entrepreneurial mindset. If things get too bad, do what any good entrepreneur would do: create something to fill your needs.
People talk about news.ycombinator.com like it's somehow special and destined for something greater than "Another Reddit."
I'm sorry, but there is simply no evidence that this is the case. All social news sites have a lifespan before they become intolerable bastions foolish commentry. I am here as opposed to reddit for the time being because this is still the least ridiculous social news site I can find.
I am sad about it, but I accept that one day news.ycomb will be just another reddit.
I'm sorry, but there is simply no evidence that this is the case. All social news sites have a lifespan before they become intolerable bastions foolish commentry. I am here as opposed to reddit for the time being because this is still the least ridiculous social news site I can find.
I am sad about it, but I accept that one day news.ycomb will be just another reddit.
No politics. Please. That's why I like it here so much.No pseudo punditry and only technology. Now that's what we like.
We only have like 2 months to go before all this talk about politics is over..the problem might solve itself
web news, startups, programming are the key topics that should be focused on, but please don't throw out the startup/ entrepreneurial focus with general biz bathwater.
Have you never considered that, the reason you even see these things in the first place is because people upvote them?
I mean, sure they are off-topic, but people are obviously reading them and liking it. Perhaps it's not so much the 'areas of topic' but the people, that is liked?
After all, this is a vastly different community to reddit.
I mean, sure they are off-topic, but people are obviously reading them and liking it. Perhaps it's not so much the 'areas of topic' but the people, that is liked?
After all, this is a vastly different community to reddit.
why do you think hacking is the same as programming?
Whether or not hacking and programming are synonyms is highly irrelevant to how off topic HN has gotten in the past two weeks.
[deleted]
Homograph fail.
Oh cool, the Hacker News community has gotten so big that people are coming out of the woodwork and saying that they're "hardcore" and don't like some of these new people that are diluting the content. They are telling the new kids on the block to take a hike; this is our turf. A classic milestone in any community.
My advice: Your post is getting comments about how Hacker News is adaptive and how you should just do your best to influence that. So, either weather the storm and wait for the community to create sub-communities, or move on and find something else. It's nigh impossible to force people to adhere to the behavior of the "hardcore" group.
My advice: Your post is getting comments about how Hacker News is adaptive and how you should just do your best to influence that. So, either weather the storm and wait for the community to create sub-communities, or move on and find something else. It's nigh impossible to force people to adhere to the behavior of the "hardcore" group.
Can we now get back to our regular programming and cease from submitting financial & political news? Thanks very much!
The fine folks at reddit, have 3 great sub-reddits if you are interested in reading more about:
Economics: http://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/
Business: http://www.reddit.com/r/business/
Politics: http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/
Thank you.