Ask HN: Is it worth staying in college?
11 comments
"Is it worth it to have, in my early- to mid-thirties, what will likely be 3-4 completely unproductive years?"
Education (and by that I mean the official, credential-providing type of education) is an investment. Yes, some less productive years are a given. But if you do it right, your earning potential will be higher, you'll be able to work on more interesting and challenging problems, and you'll give yourself more career options. There are certain problem domains that it'd be very difficult to break into without a guide to get you started in the right direction.
With that said, it really depends on what you want to do for the rest of your life. If you don't have any specific career goals, either find some or drop out, because it's a bad investment and you'll waste time and money. If you want to make simple web apps for a living and you're sure that's all you'll ever want to do, drop out, because you can learn that easily on your own. College is definitely not worthless - you just need to figure out what it's worth to you.
My advice: look around for professors solving problems you find interesting, and make contact with them and see if they'd be willing to work with you. Try to find work that really stimulates you, and do that.
Education (and by that I mean the official, credential-providing type of education) is an investment. Yes, some less productive years are a given. But if you do it right, your earning potential will be higher, you'll be able to work on more interesting and challenging problems, and you'll give yourself more career options. There are certain problem domains that it'd be very difficult to break into without a guide to get you started in the right direction.
With that said, it really depends on what you want to do for the rest of your life. If you don't have any specific career goals, either find some or drop out, because it's a bad investment and you'll waste time and money. If you want to make simple web apps for a living and you're sure that's all you'll ever want to do, drop out, because you can learn that easily on your own. College is definitely not worthless - you just need to figure out what it's worth to you.
My advice: look around for professors solving problems you find interesting, and make contact with them and see if they'd be willing to work with you. Try to find work that really stimulates you, and do that.
Yeah, I definitely do not want to be working on web apps in 3 years. That being said, I do have an interesting job doing interesting work that is both challenging and rewarding, and is NOT in the website business. They seem not to care too much about whether or not I have a degree; the CTO was more impressed by my github repos & other public-facing aspects of my "hacking life." But good thoughts, thank you.
edit: I'd eventually love to be working on problems e.g. NLP & ML but those are master's and phd-level fields afaik, and I definitely am not interested in chasing that at this point in my life.
edit: I'd eventually love to be working on problems e.g. NLP & ML but those are master's and phd-level fields afaik, and I definitely am not interested in chasing that at this point in my life.
I think there is little to no correlation between a programmer being "employable" and their level of education. I have no (finished) degrees from any universities, however, I've been employed time and time again, and I continue to innovate and have a drive for learning. That being said, some fields simply require a degree. I would feel a little uneasy (scratch that: a lot uneasy) about seeing a doctor or a lawyer who was self-taught.
This is all pointless if you can't afford school in the first place. I know too many people who fork out $40,000-160,000 for a four-year college degree, and for what? Most of them are "unemployable" as soon as they exit with their shiny, expensive piece of paper. This is why I chose to stop going to school and focus on making myself "employable" by learning new languages, new techniques, marketing myself, getting better and better at what I already know how to do, and focusing on gaining experience in the work force.
This sounds like what you need to do.
This is all pointless if you can't afford school in the first place. I know too many people who fork out $40,000-160,000 for a four-year college degree, and for what? Most of them are "unemployable" as soon as they exit with their shiny, expensive piece of paper. This is why I chose to stop going to school and focus on making myself "employable" by learning new languages, new techniques, marketing myself, getting better and better at what I already know how to do, and focusing on gaining experience in the work force.
This sounds like what you need to do.
There is always the argument of staying for
1) Meeting those you may eventually do business with, have mentor rings, etc. (networking, cannot be understated)
2) social experience; I always find those (personal anecdote) of those taking 1-2 years off of highschool straight to college and experiencing Something (going to Europe, seeing new cultures, etc.) experience lower levels of burnout.
Make college the most of the experience you desire, and their is no such thing as a "waste" of experience.
2) social experience; I always find those (personal anecdote) of those taking 1-2 years off of highschool straight to college and experiencing Something (going to Europe, seeing new cultures, etc.) experience lower levels of burnout.
Make college the most of the experience you desire, and their is no such thing as a "waste" of experience.
Then with your parent "I just want to know the opinion of those more experienced than me. Is it worth it to stay in college? Or is that parchment more worthwhile than continuing to pursue programming as the passion it is for me"
With your current situation then, perhaps some self study of the "why" of what your goals / future endeavors could bring would be beneficial. Meaning, take a meditative walk, hike, "alone" time with shutting down all electronic mediums (NO distractions) and, a freewrite into a blank pad of paper on your passions, goals (separate columns), link them up (passions to goals to competencies), and pursue / iterate until fruition. Without further information, I'm not sure what I can offer, but I hope it is helpful :)
Prometheus Rising http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561840564/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...
Is a great mind-hacking novel to expand your views of reality, what many would identify with "aha" moments, and, many would cite (in sections) "hokey." But, expanding your creative juices (even if that is staring at a sunset whilst calming your mind to any and all distractions, quiet your mind) and, see what comes :)
Cheers!
Edit: with regards to networking outside of college, do not discount the possibility of the up and comings / future generation of movers Within college, that could be of future value (whether you add to their experiences (mentor), or they, "ping" something to lead to a slight "aha" moment).
With your current situation then, perhaps some self study of the "why" of what your goals / future endeavors could bring would be beneficial. Meaning, take a meditative walk, hike, "alone" time with shutting down all electronic mediums (NO distractions) and, a freewrite into a blank pad of paper on your passions, goals (separate columns), link them up (passions to goals to competencies), and pursue / iterate until fruition. Without further information, I'm not sure what I can offer, but I hope it is helpful :)
Prometheus Rising http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561840564/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...
Is a great mind-hacking novel to expand your views of reality, what many would identify with "aha" moments, and, many would cite (in sections) "hokey." But, expanding your creative juices (even if that is staring at a sunset whilst calming your mind to any and all distractions, quiet your mind) and, see what comes :)
Cheers!
Edit: with regards to networking outside of college, do not discount the possibility of the up and comings / future generation of movers Within college, that could be of future value (whether you add to their experiences (mentor), or they, "ping" something to lead to a slight "aha" moment).
Thanks, I think writing down pros/cons and thinking hard is exactly what I need to do.
1. I suppose; however, I do not plan on staying in this area after graduation. Plus, I network extensively outside of the college within programming circles.
2. I'm in my early 30s. I've been around the world, had a decade in a different career. I'm smart, well-read, etc., etc. Plus, I'm a single parent, live on my own (with my kid, of course).
I feel like your two points would be great advice for someone on a traditional collegiate track, but not for me. I am definitely not a traditional student.
I feel like your two points would be great advice for someone on a traditional collegiate track, but not for me. I am definitely not a traditional student.
Make hay while the sun shines. In this economy, you need to earn as much as you can and save up all your money and don't turn down any job offers.
If you want to go to school, go part-time. If you have a sustained career without a college degree in your 30s, chances are you won't need it.
If you want to go to school, go part-time. If you have a sustained career without a college degree in your 30s, chances are you won't need it.
I'm a programmer and a college dropout. I've always been the type to march at the beat of my own drum. While genuinely interested in the humanities and core curriculum offered at my school, I loathed the slow pace of the classroom. I wanted to jump ahead and skip the basics and go straight to the "fun stuff!" I harnessed that energy and began skipping classes, teaching myself a self-selected curriculum and started developing software. Unfortunately, that path wasn't compatible with the university and I soon found myself on academic leave. It was 1995, however, and the budding Internet era was my oyster. I said goodbye to school and never looked back. Well, at the behest of a college professor I did consider returning to school a few years later but ultimately declined the offer.
Flash forward 7 years, and I was already a (twice) successful entrepreneur and now executive at a global media company. The lack of a college degree and formal education had not (in any meaningful way) impeded my career, nor had it handicapped my ability to continually learn, adapt and innovate.
One day, Microsoft came knocking. They were recruiting me to join the team. They flew me in for the infamous day of interviews and Mensa riddles, and not a single person asked me about my education. That is until the (8th and) final interview of the day. The head of the division said something along the lines of, "so, I see here that you never graduated from college?" I more or less shrugged off the question, made some smug remark about my entrepreneurial tendencies and referenced his boss, Bill Gates. I'll never forget his response. He said, "look, college is like bootcamp. Above all else, it prepares you for life by requiring you to follow someone else's rules. If you couldn't follow the rules of your school for 4 years, how do I know you will follow ours?"
It may seem obvious to others, but for me, that was the very first time someone had framed the college experience in a way that, well, actually resonated! There was a sudden, epiphany-like clarity. I couldn't even tell you what I said next. But the interview did go well, and they made me a formal offer the next day. I turned it down. You know why? He was right, whether I was capable or not wasn't the issue. I didn't want to follow their rules. In fact, I soon after resigned my position at the media company and set myself back on the entrepreneurial route. I've been innovating and starting businesses ever since. Marching at the beat of my own drum and happy as a clam.
Each individual's life experience is unique, and I'm certain others might disagree with my message and sentiment. However, college is kind of like bootcamp. Many people benefit from its structure and curriculum, and the social experience it offers. Hey, it's not for everyone, but I do believe that if you have that fire burning inside of you, if you hear that drumbeat in your head, and are disciplined enough to learn as you go and manage your own education, you won't let a missing piece of paper hold you back.
Good luck!
Flash forward 7 years, and I was already a (twice) successful entrepreneur and now executive at a global media company. The lack of a college degree and formal education had not (in any meaningful way) impeded my career, nor had it handicapped my ability to continually learn, adapt and innovate.
One day, Microsoft came knocking. They were recruiting me to join the team. They flew me in for the infamous day of interviews and Mensa riddles, and not a single person asked me about my education. That is until the (8th and) final interview of the day. The head of the division said something along the lines of, "so, I see here that you never graduated from college?" I more or less shrugged off the question, made some smug remark about my entrepreneurial tendencies and referenced his boss, Bill Gates. I'll never forget his response. He said, "look, college is like bootcamp. Above all else, it prepares you for life by requiring you to follow someone else's rules. If you couldn't follow the rules of your school for 4 years, how do I know you will follow ours?"
It may seem obvious to others, but for me, that was the very first time someone had framed the college experience in a way that, well, actually resonated! There was a sudden, epiphany-like clarity. I couldn't even tell you what I said next. But the interview did go well, and they made me a formal offer the next day. I turned it down. You know why? He was right, whether I was capable or not wasn't the issue. I didn't want to follow their rules. In fact, I soon after resigned my position at the media company and set myself back on the entrepreneurial route. I've been innovating and starting businesses ever since. Marching at the beat of my own drum and happy as a clam.
Each individual's life experience is unique, and I'm certain others might disagree with my message and sentiment. However, college is kind of like bootcamp. Many people benefit from its structure and curriculum, and the social experience it offers. Hey, it's not for everyone, but I do believe that if you have that fire burning inside of you, if you hear that drumbeat in your head, and are disciplined enough to learn as you go and manage your own education, you won't let a missing piece of paper hold you back.
Good luck!
Well, I was a Marine for over ten years, so the "kind of like boot camp" facet is redundant for me since I've been through actual boot camp.
Why are you in school?
If your goal is improved career options, stay. If your goal is education, drop out, and teach yourself.
I say this as someone who recently chose the latter.
If your goal is improved career options, stay. If your goal is education, drop out, and teach yourself.
I say this as someone who recently chose the latter.
Well, that's the thing. I am mostly just here to learn the hard stuff I wouldn't have occasion to teach myself. Discrete math, data structures, etc. Plus, just based on my experience of constant job offers from networking and having a decent-sized number of repos on github, I don't feel like my options are all that limited, with regard to companies I want to work at.
I just don't want to have regrets in 3-5 or 15 or 30 years.
I just don't want to have regrets in 3-5 or 15 or 30 years.
That was actually my reason for wanting to go back to school. I wanted to be able to ask questions in case I got stuck learning math. I ended up with horrible math professors (each with 10+ years of experience) and had to teach myself discrete math, linear algebra, and differential equations.
I hope you will have better luck with professors than I, but in hindsight, I would have been far better off financially and emotionally if I hired a private tutor when needed instead of paying tuition.
I hope you will have better luck with professors than I, but in hindsight, I would have been far better off financially and emotionally if I hired a private tutor when needed instead of paying tuition.
Yes, my calculus professor this semester is terrible.
no.
i have a bs (from a liberal arts college in the midwest) in CS, math, and physics. i have an MS in computer science from the university of north carolina.
if i could take those and exchange them for another 5 years of work experience, i'd do it in a heartbeat.
i have a bs (from a liberal arts college in the midwest) in CS, math, and physics. i have an MS in computer science from the university of north carolina.
if i could take those and exchange them for another 5 years of work experience, i'd do it in a heartbeat.
Yes, I am beginning to think my ability and drive to self-teach in my free time, coupled with the fact I do have an extensive work history in other careers, removes much of the benefit of attending college.
How has your MS impacted your ability to find work? I'm deducing it hasn't had a positive impact, and the work experience displaced by your education has had a negative impact.
How has your MS impacted your ability to find work? I'm deducing it hasn't had a positive impact, and the work experience displaced by your education has had a negative impact.
the degree itself is worthless compared to my experience. i've never had anyone ask what i studied in grad school at an interview.
Stay in school. You'll regret it later.
Ok, do you have specifics or just vague platitudes?
No. I'm very passionate about the topic of whether not school is necessary. My conclusion is that it is not, yet I still finished 4 years of school. Now that I've graduated I found out I love programming a lot!! I wish I would have started younger. I'm sorry you lost your passion for it, but it may not be your passion that is lost but your direction in life. I would recommend reading a book the magic of thinking big.
It's unfortunate but we live in a world where society tells us to go to school, get good grades, get a good job, and then live that life style. However, if you look at the result of that you will see it's a bad plan. Most people go to school both time and money poor. When they graduate they get a job around about 21-24yrs of age. If they keep that job they're their income goes up steadily until about the age of 32-34. That is the age when most people's income levels flat-line. However, they don't only flat-line but they take a small decrease because raises are usually around 3% when inflation is around 4%. Then round about the age of 60-65yrs of age you retire. However, the retirement age is now around 75 (I think the current life expectancy age is 74 for men).
Anyway you retire and my income level drops to a 1/2 or a 3rd of what you were making when you maxed you income. Your back at where you started.
Here's an example. When I started college I wanted to be a supply chain manager. My starting wage would have been $45,000 my income would be expect to max out at around $90,000. When I retired, lets say at 1/2 the income. How much will I be making? $45,000! I'm right back at where I started when I was 22! That makes no sense. (Stats from the USDL United States Department of labor)
Many people say well you can invest but I don't think I need to say anything about that. For the average person and the volatility of the stock market, lets not waste our time. Plus most people go into so much debt after graduating that the invest doesn't have time to mature.
So my tone has been very negative so far. Here's my message of hope. I heard once, find someone who has want you want and do what they did. What I took from that is you first need to write down what, you want, your life to look like. Do you like to travel? Do you want lots of kids? Do you want land? Do you want cold or hot weather? Do you want to spend time with your family (man I could really go on about how kids are losing their parents do to corporate America)? And yes I'm support capitalism I'm not a hippie, though I friends that are. I digress......
Once you have established want you want out life things tend to work themselves out to putting you in a place to getting them. Your mind has a way of wanting to make things come true. So once you put something in front of your mind that you want. Your mind begins to calculate a way to bring it to existence.
So I assume you're going to school because you want a job that can get you a better lifestyle. Take a moment and make a list of what you want in life. Then look for things that help you get it. You'll be surprised where it leads you.
"Life is like a map if you don't pick a destination you're going to end up nowhere."
P.S. look up on google "The Secret the law of attraction" it's a bit spiritual and pantheistic. However, there are some good points.
It's unfortunate but we live in a world where society tells us to go to school, get good grades, get a good job, and then live that life style. However, if you look at the result of that you will see it's a bad plan. Most people go to school both time and money poor. When they graduate they get a job around about 21-24yrs of age. If they keep that job they're their income goes up steadily until about the age of 32-34. That is the age when most people's income levels flat-line. However, they don't only flat-line but they take a small decrease because raises are usually around 3% when inflation is around 4%. Then round about the age of 60-65yrs of age you retire. However, the retirement age is now around 75 (I think the current life expectancy age is 74 for men).
Anyway you retire and my income level drops to a 1/2 or a 3rd of what you were making when you maxed you income. Your back at where you started.
Here's an example. When I started college I wanted to be a supply chain manager. My starting wage would have been $45,000 my income would be expect to max out at around $90,000. When I retired, lets say at 1/2 the income. How much will I be making? $45,000! I'm right back at where I started when I was 22! That makes no sense. (Stats from the USDL United States Department of labor)
Many people say well you can invest but I don't think I need to say anything about that. For the average person and the volatility of the stock market, lets not waste our time. Plus most people go into so much debt after graduating that the invest doesn't have time to mature.
So my tone has been very negative so far. Here's my message of hope. I heard once, find someone who has want you want and do what they did. What I took from that is you first need to write down what, you want, your life to look like. Do you like to travel? Do you want lots of kids? Do you want land? Do you want cold or hot weather? Do you want to spend time with your family (man I could really go on about how kids are losing their parents do to corporate America)? And yes I'm support capitalism I'm not a hippie, though I friends that are. I digress......
Once you have established want you want out life things tend to work themselves out to putting you in a place to getting them. Your mind has a way of wanting to make things come true. So once you put something in front of your mind that you want. Your mind begins to calculate a way to bring it to existence.
So I assume you're going to school because you want a job that can get you a better lifestyle. Take a moment and make a list of what you want in life. Then look for things that help you get it. You'll be surprised where it leads you.
"Life is like a map if you don't pick a destination you're going to end up nowhere."
P.S. look up on google "The Secret the law of attraction" it's a bit spiritual and pantheistic. However, there are some good points.
Got only this quote:
Dream about the future, but work hard today. Dream big. Set goals and plans for the future. But working hard today is always the first step towards realizing your dreams tomorrow. Don’t allow dreaming about tomorrow to replace living in today.
Dream about the future, but work hard today. Dream big. Set goals and plans for the future. But working hard today is always the first step towards realizing your dreams tomorrow. Don’t allow dreaming about tomorrow to replace living in today.
I started back to school last fall, and continued through the spring as a part-time student. I decided that this fall I would go full-time, in addition to my full-time job programming in the energy sector.
However, I've lost almost all my passion and drive for learning new things. I don't study new languages anymore, or read blogs, or write blog posts myself anymore. All the time I used to spend enriching myself I now spend doing Geology homework (a science elective..) or taking Computing II. I am taking Discrete Math, and that's interesting and applicable down the road. But I'm left wondering, is it worth it to have, in my early- to mid-thirties, what will likely be 3-4 completely unproductive years? I feel like instead of constantly improving myself at my own pace, I've slammed the brakes on my education by going to college.
All that being said, I want to continue to be employable. I live in a midwestern city, a big one, but not one that is heavily tech-centric. The crunch for developers is very severe here, so I don't take the fact I find work relatively easily as a sign that I'm some super programmer, or that I'm universally hireable.
I just want to know the opinion of those more experienced than me. Is it worth it to stay in college? Or is that parchment more worthwhile than continuing to pursue programming as the passion it is for me?