Considered for deletion – Mass killings under communist regimes(en.wikipedia.org)
en.wikipedia.org
Considered for deletion – Mass killings under communist regimes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes
2 comments
WTF is wrong with this world? Is there anything we can do to prevent this deletion?
I don't see what's wrong here, is there a "mass killings under capitalist regimes" page? We can start with 100 million indigenous souls in the Americas and count from there!
These listicles might get you some clicks on BuzzFeed, but violate Wikipedia's SYNTH policy. It is an encyclopedia, you can't combine multiple sources to synthesize an argument not made individually by any source. If these massacres are unique to communism, or caused entirely by it, by all means cite a reliable source that says so. If you can't, to the point that the page has to borrow from better wiki articles, it'll be nominated for deletion.
If anything I'm surprised this has been up for discussion for YEARS, but then again Wikipedia has always had a centrist/libertarian bent
These listicles might get you some clicks on BuzzFeed, but violate Wikipedia's SYNTH policy. It is an encyclopedia, you can't combine multiple sources to synthesize an argument not made individually by any source. If these massacres are unique to communism, or caused entirely by it, by all means cite a reliable source that says so. If you can't, to the point that the page has to borrow from better wiki articles, it'll be nominated for deletion.
If anything I'm surprised this has been up for discussion for YEARS, but then again Wikipedia has always had a centrist/libertarian bent
Is there a generalized "governmental mass killings" page?
> I don't see what's wrong here
Best estimates are 100 million dead, and you don't see what's wrong?!? What's wrong with you?
"Capitalism did the same"? That may make capitalism worse, but it doesn't make communism better. They still killed an insane number of people.
And, "the 100 million indigenous souls in the Americas"? You blame their deaths on capitalism? Imperialism, maybe. I could buy that. But capitalism? To a large degree (not totally), no, that is not capitalism's fault.
Best estimates are 100 million dead, and you don't see what's wrong?!? What's wrong with you?
"Capitalism did the same"? That may make capitalism worse, but it doesn't make communism better. They still killed an insane number of people.
And, "the 100 million indigenous souls in the Americas"? You blame their deaths on capitalism? Imperialism, maybe. I could buy that. But capitalism? To a large degree (not totally), no, that is not capitalism's fault.
There are two options, either you live in a country that wasn't impacted by communist regime and avoid history lessons or you benefited from such regime.
Capitalism isn't perfect but it is not a regime and people are not killed because they disagree with capitalism. There's hardly anything to compare.
And your argument about indigenous Americans is invalid. You think there was capitalism in medieval Europe?
Capitalism isn't perfect but it is not a regime and people are not killed because they disagree with capitalism. There's hardly anything to compare.
And your argument about indigenous Americans is invalid. You think there was capitalism in medieval Europe?
> people are not killed because they disagree with capitalism
Perhaps you are the one who avoided history lessons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'%C3%A9tat#...
Perhaps you are the one who avoided history lessons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'%C3%A9tat#...
What do you think a “regime” is?
FYI, it’s nothing but a scare term and capitalism absolutely has its regimes. As Noam Chomsky is famous for reminding us, the American government is the worlds largest terrorist organization.
FYI, it’s nothing but a scare term and capitalism absolutely has its regimes. As Noam Chomsky is famous for reminding us, the American government is the worlds largest terrorist organization.
> You think there was capitalism in medieval Europe?
You'll probably move the goal posts, but yeah, the Fuggers and de Medici and all the other banking families of that age would like a word with you.
Edit: Also, you keep mentioning "regime" as if it's a bad word. It just means government[0]
[0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/regime#Noun
You'll probably move the goal posts, but yeah, the Fuggers and de Medici and all the other banking families of that age would like a word with you.
Edit: Also, you keep mentioning "regime" as if it's a bad word. It just means government[0]
[0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/regime#Noun
They do cite sources, in the "Proposed causes" section.
> We can start with 100 million indigenous souls in the Americas and count from there!
This example fits under colonialism, not capitalism, and there's already a page that covers that category:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples
> We can start with 100 million indigenous souls in the Americas and count from there!
This example fits under colonialism, not capitalism, and there's already a page that covers that category:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples
That page is not the same: it lists crimes of the same type, not by the (supposed(^*)) ideology they were committed under.
There are a lot of ideologies in the name of which mass murders were committed: fascism, Christianity, Islam, other religious ideologies,... and some ideologies for which this is at least debated, like capitalism. The problem is that these crimes often vary so much that it's hard to find a common thread besides vague ideological motivations. So it is less controversial to group them by the type of crime, like killing of indigenous peoples, regardless of the supposed justification (religious, economic, racial...)
Are there other Wikipedia pages in the style of "mass killing in .*ist regimes"? I couldn't find one.
* I write "supposed" here in line with the discussion in the original article where the question of what classifies as a communist regime is discussed a bit.*
There are a lot of ideologies in the name of which mass murders were committed: fascism, Christianity, Islam, other religious ideologies,... and some ideologies for which this is at least debated, like capitalism. The problem is that these crimes often vary so much that it's hard to find a common thread besides vague ideological motivations. So it is less controversial to group them by the type of crime, like killing of indigenous peoples, regardless of the supposed justification (religious, economic, racial...)
Are there other Wikipedia pages in the style of "mass killing in .*ist regimes"? I couldn't find one.
* I write "supposed" here in line with the discussion in the original article where the question of what classifies as a communist regime is discussed a bit.*
> The problem is that these crimes often vary so much that it's hard to find a common thread besides vague ideological motivations.
I agree that it's hard, but some scholars have argued that there is a common thread. Why wouldn't we want to put that scholarship on Wikipedia?
> Are there other Wikipedia pages in the style of "mass killing in .*ist regimes"? I couldn't find one.
There's this, but it's not well developed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism_and_genocide
I agree that it's hard, but some scholars have argued that there is a common thread. Why wouldn't we want to put that scholarship on Wikipedia?
> Are there other Wikipedia pages in the style of "mass killing in .*ist regimes"? I couldn't find one.
There's this, but it's not well developed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism_and_genocide
The same recategorization could be applied to any death that ostensibly “communism did.”
Why don’t we call American slavery “capitalist slavery?” It was far more capitalist than any of the deaths people try to attribute to communism are communist.
Why don’t we call American slavery “capitalist slavery?” It was far more capitalist than any of the deaths people try to attribute to communism are communist.
> The same recategorization could be applied to any death that ostensibly “communism did.”
In the case of famines, no it can't. The famines were a direct consequence of the specific communist policies that were enacted. That's why the communism categorization is fair, because communism was the proximate cause.
Regarding the indigenous American genocide, that had little to do with capitalism. The proximate cause was colonialism. That's why it's not a valid comparison or argument.
In the case of non-famine mass killings under communist regimes, there's valid debate about the extent to which communism itself is responsible, and that debate is discussed in the wiki article.
Even if I grant that some mass killings were due to capitalism (e.g. the Rawagede massacre), all that means is that that would warrant its own article where the scholarship on the common underlying threads is discussed. It's not an argument for taking down this article. I'd also challenge the notion that this isn't talked about in Wikipedia (although I recognize there isn't a dedicated article on it). Read the article on the Irish Famine where they openly discuss the role of free trade in possibly making the famine worse.
In the case of famines, no it can't. The famines were a direct consequence of the specific communist policies that were enacted. That's why the communism categorization is fair, because communism was the proximate cause.
Regarding the indigenous American genocide, that had little to do with capitalism. The proximate cause was colonialism. That's why it's not a valid comparison or argument.
In the case of non-famine mass killings under communist regimes, there's valid debate about the extent to which communism itself is responsible, and that debate is discussed in the wiki article.
Even if I grant that some mass killings were due to capitalism (e.g. the Rawagede massacre), all that means is that that would warrant its own article where the scholarship on the common underlying threads is discussed. It's not an argument for taking down this article. I'd also challenge the notion that this isn't talked about in Wikipedia (although I recognize there isn't a dedicated article on it). Read the article on the Irish Famine where they openly discuss the role of free trade in possibly making the famine worse.
You should form a club with holocaust deniers to be honest.
> Fact: Communism killed an estimated 100 million people (or more) in the 20th century alone.
> Fact 2: Communism has always led to mass suffering and death. > Fact 3: Communism always will lead to mass suffering and death.
2 is really questionable as to whether it is a fact, and 3 is definitely not a fact. The author clearly has no idea of what is appropriate for an encyclopedia. Now "List of mass killings by self-reported communist regimes" might be, but there is definitely a difference there.
Also it was Vietnamese communists that overthrew PolPot.