Ask HN: What is it like working in tech internationally?
9 comments
Worked in Paris for a year. Much lower pay, but much better overall quality of life. 35 days PTO, could afford an apartment within walking distance of the office. No one eating lunch at their desks. People cared about the product as much as they do in the USA but there was a clear separation between work and non work life. Came back to the USA to earn more and will relocate when we have kids.
How do you mean no one ate lunch at their desk?
I eat at my desk (often) because my day is hectic. Sometimes I’m in the middle of a problem and don’t get to eating lunch until later in the day - at which point everyone else already ate.
Much of my day can be a hustle from one thing to the next. I do make an hour of time in the middle of the work day to go lift weights.
How do folks in Paris differ or not differ?
I eat at my desk (often) because my day is hectic. Sometimes I’m in the middle of a problem and don’t get to eating lunch until later in the day - at which point everyone else already ate.
Much of my day can be a hustle from one thing to the next. I do make an hour of time in the middle of the work day to go lift weights.
How do folks in Paris differ or not differ?
There are rules that require companies of a certain size to offer employee cafeterias and reduced priced lunches. I was working in a building that housed a few mid-sized startups that all shared the cafeteria and cooking staff. So at noon, when lunch was served, everyone left their desks to go eat a proper meal together. Meetings were not allowed during that time, management also made sure to not be at their desks during that time. The mid-day break was universally respected. It was refreshing
How much is a good central 1bd in Paris rented for 3-6 months?
i did a stint in sydney and hong kong, 4 months and 1 month, respectively, about 20 years ago (so, HK before handover). and a couple weeks in ireland-type thing a few years ago.
was cool, very cool, but it was just kind of like a combined vacation/work/party thing - in part b/c those places are pretty gd cool.
i would have liked, and still might like, to go to a country where the native language is not my native tongue (English), and where there are not _too_ many expats around, else you just end up chillin with them all the time.
my teams were brits, aussies, some americans, all temp or perm expats from virginia, philly, mexico city, various places in uk and au, etc.
i was a java dev-type at the time, and in terms of work, it felt just like being in america.
was cool, very cool, but it was just kind of like a combined vacation/work/party thing - in part b/c those places are pretty gd cool.
i would have liked, and still might like, to go to a country where the native language is not my native tongue (English), and where there are not _too_ many expats around, else you just end up chillin with them all the time.
my teams were brits, aussies, some americans, all temp or perm expats from virginia, philly, mexico city, various places in uk and au, etc.
i was a java dev-type at the time, and in terms of work, it felt just like being in america.
Work is similar I imagine but less $
Just my opinion but I guess: Less American enthusiasm, less money and more of an attitude that it's just a job rather than changing the world
edit: and more time off
edit: and more time off
I think this rings home. I work as a software engineer in Western Europe: programming is my hobby I and love it, but I only show "passion" on personal projects. I do my 9-5 at my work because it just doesn't make much sense to me to give all my "intellect" to my employer.
I'd see it as the opposite. Most of the American companies I apply with do some kind of community, note taking tool, communication tool, help people save money on vacations. None of these are world-changing applications.
Whereas in developing countries, you're helping people with prepaid solar power. You're helping them save time and costs transferring cash (many still don't have credit cards). Some people have only one form of entertainment, and I've worked on that once. There's just a lot of problems that have skipped the PC era and gone straight into the smartphone-browser era.
Though like the people who build highways, it's common to get treated as just another form of disposable labor.
Whereas in developing countries, you're helping people with prepaid solar power. You're helping them save time and costs transferring cash (many still don't have credit cards). Some people have only one form of entertainment, and I've worked on that once. There's just a lot of problems that have skipped the PC era and gone straight into the smartphone-browser era.
Though like the people who build highways, it's common to get treated as just another form of disposable labor.
Hi! I've done work in Sydney from 2011-2013, India 2013-2014, and now Singapore from early 2020 up to today.
Overall, I would say that there's larger gaps between companies than there are internally to countries. Especially in India, I was consulting and definitely spent time on an Infosys campus in Bangalore where they had unscrewed half of the overhead lights to save money, but I also worked with some places that felt more or less like any other high-tech company anywhere else in the world.
Similarly, when I was looking for work here in Singapore, there were definitely folks that were looking to hire folks with 15 years of experience and pay them $80k/year, but there were also several companies that offered high-paying jobs with interesting work. There were definitely FEWER companies, but the flip side is that the hit rate was much higher -- I ended up getting at least a first interview with 70% of the companies I sent my resume to here, as opposed to the 20-25% I generally find in the US. In general, companies are very keen to hire "American" tech talent, especially if you have a "name-brand" on your resume.
In terms of compensation, if you are relocating, you really do have to look at the holistic quality-of-life. I ostensibly took a "paycut" in US$ terms from my Google NYC job for my role here in Singapore, but I also went from a tiny 2 bedroom apartment and a 45 minute subway ride to a 3 bedroom walking distance to work with a full-time nanny who works 6 days a week, cleans, and cooks in addition to watching our two kids.
Living "overseas" has been a great joy in my life -- I may end up back in America for some time but I also see myself living elsewhere for as much or more time. I can't recommend it enough -- the world is a pretty incredible place!
Overall, I would say that there's larger gaps between companies than there are internally to countries. Especially in India, I was consulting and definitely spent time on an Infosys campus in Bangalore where they had unscrewed half of the overhead lights to save money, but I also worked with some places that felt more or less like any other high-tech company anywhere else in the world.
Similarly, when I was looking for work here in Singapore, there were definitely folks that were looking to hire folks with 15 years of experience and pay them $80k/year, but there were also several companies that offered high-paying jobs with interesting work. There were definitely FEWER companies, but the flip side is that the hit rate was much higher -- I ended up getting at least a first interview with 70% of the companies I sent my resume to here, as opposed to the 20-25% I generally find in the US. In general, companies are very keen to hire "American" tech talent, especially if you have a "name-brand" on your resume.
In terms of compensation, if you are relocating, you really do have to look at the holistic quality-of-life. I ostensibly took a "paycut" in US$ terms from my Google NYC job for my role here in Singapore, but I also went from a tiny 2 bedroom apartment and a 45 minute subway ride to a 3 bedroom walking distance to work with a full-time nanny who works 6 days a week, cleans, and cooks in addition to watching our two kids.
Living "overseas" has been a great joy in my life -- I may end up back in America for some time but I also see myself living elsewhere for as much or more time. I can't recommend it enough -- the world is a pretty incredible place!
It might not just be American tech talent though. I'm "local" (with an Australian degree), minimal name-brand, and 10 years experience. I've gotten first interview offers from many of the top companies in the region. The senior to staff developer range is in very high demand.
I have lived in Mexico for about three years. I'm sure its not as fabulous as what you were imagining. But it is affordable for me working on startup 'wages' (contracting income from individually funded 'startups').
First I lived in a little shack in front of someone's house for $700 on AirBnb for like two weeks. Then I moved to a place right on the beach but a very loud and touristy area for $800 per month.
Then I moved to a bigger apartment in a normal less loud beach area for $550 a month.
Now about six months ago I am in a little apartment at the edge of a mansion in a gated community in Ensenada. Only paying $450. The annoying thing is last two months there has been some major remodeling upstairs.
Honestly I have been working mostly from home for like ten years. I rarely go out. The closest thing to socializing for me is usually Eleven Table Tennis in VR or sometimes Demeo. Spend way too much time on YouTube.
In TJ there was a big issue with water being turned off over the whole city sometimes. The place I am in now further south has a very large backup water tank so that hasn't impacted me recently except that I was conserving water a bit more.
I mostly just order food or groceries on Rappi or Uber Eats.
For someone who is kind of a hermit like me, things haven't changed a ton. And in this area many people speak some English so that hasn't been a huge deal. Although I have got lots of practice for my awful Spanish with Uber drivers etc.
First I lived in a little shack in front of someone's house for $700 on AirBnb for like two weeks. Then I moved to a place right on the beach but a very loud and touristy area for $800 per month.
Then I moved to a bigger apartment in a normal less loud beach area for $550 a month.
Now about six months ago I am in a little apartment at the edge of a mansion in a gated community in Ensenada. Only paying $450. The annoying thing is last two months there has been some major remodeling upstairs.
Honestly I have been working mostly from home for like ten years. I rarely go out. The closest thing to socializing for me is usually Eleven Table Tennis in VR or sometimes Demeo. Spend way too much time on YouTube.
In TJ there was a big issue with water being turned off over the whole city sometimes. The place I am in now further south has a very large backup water tank so that hasn't impacted me recently except that I was conserving water a bit more.
I mostly just order food or groceries on Rappi or Uber Eats.
For someone who is kind of a hermit like me, things haven't changed a ton. And in this area many people speak some English so that hasn't been a huge deal. Although I have got lots of practice for my awful Spanish with Uber drivers etc.
Canada. Severely underpaid compared to American counterparts, and cost of living is on par. Many less opportunities as well, primarily focused on financial sector if in Toronto, or contracting/working remote for American company, or being in a satellite FAANG. Start-up scene mostly sucks, and too many meh companies. Only saving grace for Canada right now is Shopify. Hope they don't catch the Canadian tech company curse and die prematurely.
I think you're severely underselling the Canadian market as someone else in Canada.
I really like the quality of life that Vancouver provides, the pay is also pretty good (has improved a lot in the last ~2y), I got multiple offers as of two months ago in the 200-280k CAD TC which really isn't bad for Vancouver. Those offers were by companies with offices in Vancouver.
Nature, health care, people are polite, not too much crazy politics, lot's of opportunities, good food.. I enjoy it very much and wouldn't trade this city to live in the USA.
I really like the quality of life that Vancouver provides, the pay is also pretty good (has improved a lot in the last ~2y), I got multiple offers as of two months ago in the 200-280k CAD TC which really isn't bad for Vancouver. Those offers were by companies with offices in Vancouver.
Nature, health care, people are polite, not too much crazy politics, lot's of opportunities, good food.. I enjoy it very much and wouldn't trade this city to live in the USA.
Seattle provides all that without the 50% pay cut, denominated in a currency that's at 70% strength to the dollar.
Had multiple offers in Vancouver. Turned them all down. Couldn't come close to matching quality of life in Seattle.
Had multiple offers in Vancouver. Turned them all down. Couldn't come close to matching quality of life in Seattle.
Are you saying Seattle qualify of life is better than Vancouver? Other than potential compensation, in what ways?
I live in Seattle, but we definitely have crazy politics and the nature is seriously overcrowded.
Good for you. We all put different values on different things.
You would likely earn double and have same/similar quality of life right across the border.
Malaysia is a great place to be. Software is probably around the top 5% of salaries; many people in gov will never make as much money as a "senior developer", and even accountants get paid half as much.
Tech in SE Asia is very exciting, probably similar to the 17th century colonialism. You have three major powers: US, China, and Germany who are all competing for the local market.
US tech seems isolated; even Amazon hasn't stepped far outside its borders. But the tech reaches here, especially Google, Microsoft, 500 Startups. Americans seem to come in with this impression that America is the best, which may be true from a salary standpoint, but not technologically.
China is extremely hard working and tries to get into everything. Companies like Huawei, Alibaba, and ZTE try to dig themselves deep like Oracle does, but they have the innovation rates of Google.
Germany/Rocket Internet goes into markets before other companies can. Companies like Lazada grow 10%/week (even when valued at $1B). They get acquired by companies like Alibaba who look to expand but don't want to deal with shit like building infrastructure from scratch in a place that doesn't have full roads or use credit cards. Those companies just want to hire 5000 people a billion dollars. German startups are risky and die often, so you'll often see a lot of Germans from these dead startups doing their own or bouncing around other SE Asian startups and consultants. They're probably the best in the world at execution, but in terms of customer discovery, America still wins hands down.
There are some interesting other "colonists" like UK, Korea and Japan. Korea has solved many of its own problems and SE Asia is a really large consumer market. Japan and UK are also developed in that internal investments will probably bring minimal returns, so a lot of funding these past few weeks have been coming in for "emerging markets" like SEA.
Tech level is surprisingly not terrible... I think Malaysia is technologically a little ahead of Portugal and Australia, even though the Australian education system is a lot better and salaries are 3 times higher.
Tech in SE Asia is very exciting, probably similar to the 17th century colonialism. You have three major powers: US, China, and Germany who are all competing for the local market.
US tech seems isolated; even Amazon hasn't stepped far outside its borders. But the tech reaches here, especially Google, Microsoft, 500 Startups. Americans seem to come in with this impression that America is the best, which may be true from a salary standpoint, but not technologically.
China is extremely hard working and tries to get into everything. Companies like Huawei, Alibaba, and ZTE try to dig themselves deep like Oracle does, but they have the innovation rates of Google.
Germany/Rocket Internet goes into markets before other companies can. Companies like Lazada grow 10%/week (even when valued at $1B). They get acquired by companies like Alibaba who look to expand but don't want to deal with shit like building infrastructure from scratch in a place that doesn't have full roads or use credit cards. Those companies just want to hire 5000 people a billion dollars. German startups are risky and die often, so you'll often see a lot of Germans from these dead startups doing their own or bouncing around other SE Asian startups and consultants. They're probably the best in the world at execution, but in terms of customer discovery, America still wins hands down.
There are some interesting other "colonists" like UK, Korea and Japan. Korea has solved many of its own problems and SE Asia is a really large consumer market. Japan and UK are also developed in that internal investments will probably bring minimal returns, so a lot of funding these past few weeks have been coming in for "emerging markets" like SEA.
Tech level is surprisingly not terrible... I think Malaysia is technologically a little ahead of Portugal and Australia, even though the Australian education system is a lot better and salaries are 3 times higher.
London's good, fintech is doing well. Plenty of interesting things to do and see in the city, lots of different industries all collide here, plus the regulators are all here too. Very international city. Cost of living is expensive like almost all big cities.
What is it actually like to work in tech outside of the country?
What is it like in your country? How do you feel about the experience?