Texas Battlefield 3 launch LAN bans women from attending(borderhouseblog.com)
borderhouseblog.com
Texas Battlefield 3 launch LAN bans women from attending
http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5811
7 comments
So long as there are women-only gyms, scholarships, etc this argument falls a little flat. In other words, you can't have your cake and eat it.
You could actually perceive women-only gyms and scholarships as a response to events such as this. How would you react to being told your presence caused bad behavior, and so you'd been disallowed? Why, you'd create a space from whence you couldn't be removed--by making yourself the only entity. However, that's not to say it is an ideal solution. Also, I've never really understood that aphorism, "Can't have your cake and eat it." WTF was the point of giving me the damn cake if I can't eat it?
The adage actually makes more sense if you reverse it:
"You can't eat your cake and have it too."
That is, once you've eat the cake, you can no longer hold it in your hands. It's (generally) used to refer to a situation where one stance or course of action (naturally) precludes another.
That is, once you've eat the cake, you can no longer hold it in your hands. It's (generally) used to refer to a situation where one stance or course of action (naturally) precludes another.
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Reasons matter. Women-only gyms don’t style themselves as protecting men from women.
The reason for both is "women and men cannot do activity X together because of negative results for the women", they are both styling themselves as protecting women from men.
So I think I agree with you, but the actual wording is "who gets to make the decision matters" rather than "reasons matter".
So I think I agree with you, but the actual wording is "who gets to make the decision matters" rather than "reasons matter".
I don't disagree entirely, women-only stuff usually pisses me off as well - I didn't mean to defend only one gender, I meant to imply that discrimination sucks either way. Just yesterday, Cory Doctorow deleted my comment on BoingBoing because I implied that this comic (http://boingboing.net/2011/07/24/sexism-flamewars-explained-...) is stupid and inflammatory.
That said, there are milder scenarios for discrimination and there are severe ones. This one is severe in its stupidity.
That said, there are milder scenarios for discrimination and there are severe ones. This one is severe in its stupidity.
There are women who actually want to attend the LAN party (as evidenced by the fact that they used to be allowed, were present, and "caused problems"). Are there really men who really want to get into Curves? If that demographic exists, then sure: open the gyms!
But honestly, it seems like you're just nitpicking here because you don't want chicks at your LAN party. Some of us find that pretty hateful.
But honestly, it seems like you're just nitpicking here because you don't want chicks at your LAN party. Some of us find that pretty hateful.
Nah, I'm nitpicking because I truly believe in equality. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
If a "women's" gym is the closest to his house and has the equipment he uses (e.g. I didn't know treadmills were gender-specific) then why shouldn't a man go? His money's the same as anyone else's.
If a "women's" gym is the closest to his house and has the equipment he uses (e.g. I didn't know treadmills were gender-specific) then why shouldn't a man go? His money's the same as anyone else's.
The women's gym only exists because the atmosphere at the "open" gym is misogynistic. It's just a workaround. The real solution is to make the "open" gym friendlier. Then having a men-only or women-only gym would be stranger.
Just curious, but what do you think about Japan's women-only subway cars?
As far as I can tell, this is not in anyway affiliated with or sponsored by EA or DICE. Is that correct?
Just want to make sure people don't automatically leap on the BF3 link and blame the publisher or developer, when this appears to be a privately run event.
Just want to make sure people don't automatically leap on the BF3 link and blame the publisher or developer, when this appears to be a privately run event.
From what I can see it looks like the event is being put on by an online forum called Powers Gaming. It also appears that because of the backlash they deleted their old information thread about the party, and recreated it today with nothing but a "Coming Soon" message.
Old thread: http://www.powersgaming.com/showthread.php?742-Battlefield-3...
New thread: http://www.powersgaming.com/showthread.php?785-Battlefield-3...
If I was EA or DICE I would not be happy with this negative buzz about the game, especially as it makes BF3 players look pretty bad. (Or at least this group of them.)
Old thread: http://www.powersgaming.com/showthread.php?742-Battlefield-3...
New thread: http://www.powersgaming.com/showthread.php?785-Battlefield-3...
If I was EA or DICE I would not be happy with this negative buzz about the game, especially as it makes BF3 players look pretty bad. (Or at least this group of them.)
That is an important point and should be clarified in the blog post. Whoever organised this event are being (quite rightly I would say) made to look like massive douche-bags and it seems a little unfair for it to be people or organisations who aren't actually involved to the be ones getting the blame.
How exactly does one get into a launch party? Because if they're letting in 15 year-olds, sure there's going to be spiteful words. I always pictured these sorts of things having more mature crowds, but maybe I'm wrong.
My strategy, instead of excluding women, would be to make it a 21+ event (or maybe 18+), as well as kicking out anybody who doesn't abide by decency standards.
My strategy, instead of excluding women, would be to make it a 21+ event (or maybe 18+), as well as kicking out anybody who doesn't abide by decency standards.
"kicking out anybody who doesn't abide by decency standards."
I think they probably figured out that that would mean kicking 99% of the LAN party out.
I think they probably figured out that that would mean kicking 99% of the LAN party out.
I suspect after a few percent get kicked out the other folks would improve their behaviour.
Fair enough. In that case, stipulate that "Heated banter should be expected. If you can't handle that blah blah." Basically, there's better solutions than the shotgun approach.
Are women incapable of understanding that people can be a-holes especially in an unregulated "sporting" competition? Lots of a-holes out there. Just put a warning, let women know, and offer advice if necessary. This is just plain ol' wrong.
It's EA so I'm already boycotting it. :P
It's EA so I'm already boycotting it. :P
I think they are fully capable of understanding. But I can guess that the LAN party probably gets tons of complaints regarding assholes and women every year and just decided to put a stop to it.
Just look at a site like Reddit (which probably is the same demographic as a LAN party). As soon as a women appears, the assholes come out.
Just look at a site like Reddit (which probably is the same demographic as a LAN party). As soon as a women appears, the assholes come out.
Then it probably should not be held.
What kind of person even wants to host an event for a bunch of immature teenage gamers who can't handle the presence of a female?
What kind of person even wants to host an event for a bunch of immature teenage gamers who can't handle the presence of a female?
The problem is that many gamers fall into this category.
Which is a problem to be fixed, not a quirk to be tolerated.
And how exactly do you propose to do that?
Expect decent behaviour, and expel those who cross the line. Teenagers are fully capable of learning to behave in public.
Exactly, stop catering to the (apparent) animals.
We already have a nontrivial number of women only events in technology. What's wrong with a men only event?
Because the only reason they are doing this is because they can't be bothered to force their male attendees to adhere to a standard of common decency. They would rather remove the need for them to be good human beings. Also it is tantamount to blaming women for the men's behavior.
It is not uncommon for minorities in any group to be encouraged to show solidarity (women only events in tech for instance) while the same is frowned upon for the privileged majority.
It is not uncommon for minorities in any group to be encouraged to show solidarity (women only events in tech for instance) while the same is frowned upon for the privileged majority.
On the contrary, they are doing this because their female attendees have been (in the past) intolerant of the culture of computer gaming. Trash talk is not bad behavior - it's an equally valid form of expression used primarily in certain subcultures (basketball among black men, gaming).
This sort of behavior, particularly when used in what should otherwise be a safe space for a minority group traditionally excluded from society (young male gamers), serves only to exclude and already disadvantaged group.
Incidentally, do you also believe black men playing basketball (who often use language similar to gamers) are also bad human beings?
This sort of behavior, particularly when used in what should otherwise be a safe space for a minority group traditionally excluded from society (young male gamers), serves only to exclude and already disadvantaged group.
Incidentally, do you also believe black men playing basketball (who often use language similar to gamers) are also bad human beings?
Please, someone, think of the young white males! :)
This is a tempest in a teapot for sure, but seriously, that's your concern here? The poor young male gamers?
This is a tempest in a teapot for sure, but seriously, that's your concern here? The poor young male gamers?
This thread is quickly becoming /r/MensRights.
I also like how yummyfajitas states that young male gamers have traditionally been excluded by society. I'm a geek. I grew up as a socially maladjusted "gamer," but I'm not blaming society for my own lack of social skills. Cry me a river.
I also like how yummyfajitas states that young male gamers have traditionally been excluded by society. I'm a geek. I grew up as a socially maladjusted "gamer," but I'm not blaming society for my own lack of social skills. Cry me a river.
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Your example, "black men playing basketball" are a homogeneous group by virtue of your definition. Their trash talk, again, by definition can't consist of one group disparaging another using slurs... I hope you like the slam-dunk of setting up a straw man and knocking it down.
Ok, let me rephrase. A group which is majority black men playing basketball will, under many circumstances, engage in racial ("cracker", "wetback" or "nigger" - whatever fits) and non-racial ("yo momma") smack talk.
(Note: not a hypothetical.)
Are they bad human beings for doing so?
(Note: not a hypothetical.)
Are they bad human beings for doing so?
I strongly object to your characterization of black men. I've played pick-up and organized basketball with people of all races for > 15 years and this has not been my experience.
Honestly, it sounds like you don't play basketball, and certainly not with said "black men". I recommend trying it - I think it would change your mind.
Honestly, it sounds like you don't play basketball, and certainly not with said "black men". I recommend trying it - I think it would change your mind.
I am speaking from personal experience, nothing more. I've played pickup on many occasions with lower middle class black men.
Also interesting to note: in my experience, in a mixed race group (e.g., in grad school), the smack talk will be toned down. The lone black guy will tone it down to fit in, just as I amp it up when I'm the lone white guy.
Lastly, please note: I'm not trying to portray trash talk as anything other than a harmless cultural practice which outsiders can be intolerant of.
Also interesting to note: in my experience, in a mixed race group (e.g., in grad school), the smack talk will be toned down. The lone black guy will tone it down to fit in, just as I amp it up when I'm the lone white guy.
Lastly, please note: I'm not trying to portray trash talk as anything other than a harmless cultural practice which outsiders can be intolerant of.
I will take this statement seriously when you start arguing for a specifically exclusionary "black-only basketball league" on this basis.
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So, because you've been bullied, it's ok for everyone to be.
their female attendees have been... intolerant of the culture of computer gaming
Their female attendees have been harassed and disrespected. You need to understand that there is no such thing as an objective experience; context is the trump card every time. You don't feel threatened when someone trash talks or hazes you at a conference/tournament. Most women do feel threatened. It's up to us as a culture to decide which of those views is "reasonable". I prefer to consider both of them reasonable and search for a viable compromise.
Their female attendees have been harassed and disrespected. You need to understand that there is no such thing as an objective experience; context is the trump card every time. You don't feel threatened when someone trash talks or hazes you at a conference/tournament. Most women do feel threatened. It's up to us as a culture to decide which of those views is "reasonable". I prefer to consider both of them reasonable and search for a viable compromise.
"Basketball among black men"
So you're saying that white people playing basketball don't talk trash? Why would you even mention race and skin colour here?
And what is the culture of computer gaming of which you speak. The chances are that I've been gaming longer than you have, and while i recognise that there are certain juvenile elements who love shouting "cunt nigger i owned you" when playing, they do not represent gaming, and while they might be a feature of certain parts of gaming, they are, for the most part, denigrated and dismissed by their peers - not just women.
Are you a male gamer? It would be interesting to understand your clear bias here.
So you're saying that white people playing basketball don't talk trash? Why would you even mention race and skin colour here?
And what is the culture of computer gaming of which you speak. The chances are that I've been gaming longer than you have, and while i recognise that there are certain juvenile elements who love shouting "cunt nigger i owned you" when playing, they do not represent gaming, and while they might be a feature of certain parts of gaming, they are, for the most part, denigrated and dismissed by their peers - not just women.
Are you a male gamer? It would be interesting to understand your clear bias here.
So you're saying that white people playing basketball don't talk trash?
The only time I've ever observed it is when non-blacks play in a primarily black group. I admit I've never played basketball at the Harvard Club (and only a few times in a group which wasn't majority black), however, so I could be wrong on this.
I specifically mentioned race because I want to disambiguate behavior and membership in a protected class.
Specifically, if cosgroveb is being intellectually honest, he will criticize a protected class just as harshly as he criticizes low status male gamers for the same behavior. I suspect he isn't, however, and he will merely say "it isn't exactly the same" and instead attempt to lower the status of young male gamers and people he disagrees with.
As for my biases, I am male and I have games installed on my computer (I doubt I've played in the past year, however). I've never engaged in smack talk during video games, however - only during basketball.
The only time I've ever observed it is when non-blacks play in a primarily black group. I admit I've never played basketball at the Harvard Club (and only a few times in a group which wasn't majority black), however, so I could be wrong on this.
I specifically mentioned race because I want to disambiguate behavior and membership in a protected class.
Specifically, if cosgroveb is being intellectually honest, he will criticize a protected class just as harshly as he criticizes low status male gamers for the same behavior. I suspect he isn't, however, and he will merely say "it isn't exactly the same" and instead attempt to lower the status of young male gamers and people he disagrees with.
As for my biases, I am male and I have games installed on my computer (I doubt I've played in the past year, however). I've never engaged in smack talk during video games, however - only during basketball.
Trash talking to hurt and psyche someone out in order to throw them off their game is a strategy employed amongst the aggressively competitive and those competing at a high level usually have counters. It is not a culture that you will find practised by all members of certain groups, it is a tactic used by some members of all groups. FWIW I have played basketball with a group of white persons where some of them do this, if I don't know them usually I get left out of such exchanges.
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It appears that this ban is because the gender jokes there are targeted offensive. Otherwise, as hardcore gamers I doubt the girls would be offended after having spent time and known that such treatment is distributed uniformly. It is the isolating and targeting that hurts, if everyone got such treatment and you didn't you would be a different kind of hurt. A left out pitied pariah kind. Such a ban is just as offensive on a metalevel, being disallowed for my own good is telling me I am not strong enough to handle this and need rescuing. I suppose there must have been prior complaints but I would not be surprised if it was a small number and that the majority have their own coping mechanisms e.g knowing that those who would speak so despicably are not worth the effort to adjust your emotional state over.
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It appears that this ban is because the gender jokes there are targeted offensive. Otherwise, as hardcore gamers I doubt the girls would be offended after having spent time and known that such treatment is distributed uniformly. It is the isolating and targeting that hurts, if everyone got such treatment and you didn't you would be a different kind of hurt. A left out pitied pariah kind. Such a ban is just as offensive on a metalevel, being disallowed for my own good is telling me I am not strong enough to handle this and need rescuing. I suppose there must have been prior complaints but I would not be surprised if it was a small number and that the majority have their own coping mechanisms e.g knowing that those who would speak so despicably are not worth the effort to adjust your emotional state over.
Are you seriously telling me that you've never seen a white man call another white man "a cunt" in a sporting situation? I've observed trash talking in white on white games. I've observed it on Indian on Indian games, in German vs Dutch games, in Senegalese vs Cote d'Ivoirian games.
Why say you've never played at the Harvard Club? I'm assuming that's some bastion of white male privilege. Is that the only place where white males play?
People who trash talk during gaming situations are often regarded as immature, juvenile dicks. If you're on a basketball court and you call me a cunt, I'm going to think you're a juvenile, immature, dick. If a black man calls me a cunt, I'm going to think he's a juvenile immature dick.
Why is this so hard to understand for you?
Why say you've never played at the Harvard Club? I'm assuming that's some bastion of white male privilege. Is that the only place where white males play?
People who trash talk during gaming situations are often regarded as immature, juvenile dicks. If you're on a basketball court and you call me a cunt, I'm going to think you're a juvenile, immature, dick. If a black man calls me a cunt, I'm going to think he's a juvenile immature dick.
Why is this so hard to understand for you?
I'm trying to explain the concept of cultural context.
At my old martial arts school in NJ, you don't trash talk. You don't even need to call me a cunt to show disrespect, you simply need to fail to bow out. Should I assume you are a juvenile, immature dick if you fail to bow out after a soccer match? Of course not.
In much the same way, there are sporting events where witty banter about "yo momma" is considered acceptable behavior. No disrespect is intended, and none should be taken. It's just the culture of the game.
If you want to declare your particular set of conventions superior to all the others, be my guest.
At my old martial arts school in NJ, you don't trash talk. You don't even need to call me a cunt to show disrespect, you simply need to fail to bow out. Should I assume you are a juvenile, immature dick if you fail to bow out after a soccer match? Of course not.
In much the same way, there are sporting events where witty banter about "yo momma" is considered acceptable behavior. No disrespect is intended, and none should be taken. It's just the culture of the game.
If you want to declare your particular set of conventions superior to all the others, be my guest.
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Do we? What counts as "nontrivial"? No doubt there are exceptions, but women-in-tech events that I've experienced certainly don't ban men from attending (though generally not many men do attend).
How many actually ban men from attending? More to the point, how many ban men because the attending women just can't help themselves from being insulting and degrading to previous male attendees?
Many events that my school's Society of Women in Engineering group attend forbid men from entering. Ironically, the club president for a while was male, and he wasn't allowed to attend a banquet, despite his work promoting female entry into engineering.
> We already have a nontrivial number of women only events in technology.
To be fair, those make me uncomfortable as well. But there's a difference between "we're holding an exclusive event for group X only" and "group Y is banned because they have to be protected from group X who we want to be our only audience". There is also the power gap to consider, whether it is real or perceived doesn't matter. Holding an event for the perceived "underdog" is a lot less reprehensible than accommodating the suppressive views of a (minor but) "dominant" group. Also in this case the implied conclusion that "might makes right" ticks a lot of people off.
To be fair, those make me uncomfortable as well. But there's a difference between "we're holding an exclusive event for group X only" and "group Y is banned because they have to be protected from group X who we want to be our only audience". There is also the power gap to consider, whether it is real or perceived doesn't matter. Holding an event for the perceived "underdog" is a lot less reprehensible than accommodating the suppressive views of a (minor but) "dominant" group. Also in this case the implied conclusion that "might makes right" ticks a lot of people off.
The women-only events exist to provide more support for women in technology.
The intention behind men-only events is to avoid having to support women in technology.
The intention behind men-only events is to avoid having to support women in technology.
What a laughable comment - I can only assume that a troll has hacked your account.
Define non-trivial in this context.
Cite some examples of female only gaming events.
Define non-trivial in this context.
Cite some examples of female only gaming events.
Is this immature and inconsiderate of women and does it reflect poorly on the LAN? Absolutely. Are they within their right to do so? Absolutely.
People get up in arms about stuff like this because they're offended that people would so boldly exclude someone, but the key here is that it's a private event. Don't like it? Don't support them. Or, create your own private event with any rules you see fit.
As a nonreligious white male, I'm also excluded from minority scholarships, many religious private colleges, jobs with many religious organizations, being a waiter at Hooters, and plenty of other social groups, simply because of my personal beliefs or race or gender.
Women also can't join the Augusta National Golf Club (home of the Masters) for similar reasons as this, but I don't see that on the frontpage of HN.
People get up in arms about stuff like this because they're offended that people would so boldly exclude someone, but the key here is that it's a private event. Don't like it? Don't support them. Or, create your own private event with any rules you see fit.
As a nonreligious white male, I'm also excluded from minority scholarships, many religious private colleges, jobs with many religious organizations, being a waiter at Hooters, and plenty of other social groups, simply because of my personal beliefs or race or gender.
Women also can't join the Augusta National Golf Club (home of the Masters) for similar reasons as this, but I don't see that on the frontpage of HN.
> "it's a private event. Don't like it? Don't support them."
This is a classic refrain of apologists for bigotry. I belong to a country club that officially excluded blacks up until the 60's, and did so unofficially for years after. The policy changed under pressure from the community, which included bad publicity, public embarrassment, and disdain directed at individual club members from people on the outside. Public scorn for the organization prevailed over the objections of assholes who said, "it's a private organization! Go make your own country club!".
Eventually, Augusta may repent of gender discrimination due to similar pressure. And it still won't make the front page of HN because it has nothing to do with computers.
This is a classic refrain of apologists for bigotry. I belong to a country club that officially excluded blacks up until the 60's, and did so unofficially for years after. The policy changed under pressure from the community, which included bad publicity, public embarrassment, and disdain directed at individual club members from people on the outside. Public scorn for the organization prevailed over the objections of assholes who said, "it's a private organization! Go make your own country club!".
Eventually, Augusta may repent of gender discrimination due to similar pressure. And it still won't make the front page of HN because it has nothing to do with computers.
I think that's the point: using social pressure instead of legal. Parent's statement - it being a private event - does not necessarily conflict with embarrassing and disdaining the members.
It’s certainly legal. I see not one person here calling for it to be illegal.
What is, however, equally legal, is to be outraged about it and to make noise about it. They can hold their event, I can yell at them for doing so. Both legal, so I’m not exactly sure what your point is.
What is, however, equally legal, is to be outraged about it and to make noise about it. They can hold their event, I can yell at them for doing so. Both legal, so I’m not exactly sure what your point is.
You last point doesn't follow. HN isn't a golf site. Certainly Augusta's policy has generated significant media attention.
And your broader points are just plain wrong: doing bad things in private doesn't make it OK. Doing things that are legal doesn't make them moral. Getting "up in arms about stuff" that doesn't directly affect you doesn't mean your opinions shouldn't be voiced.
And your broader points are just plain wrong: doing bad things in private doesn't make it OK. Doing things that are legal doesn't make them moral. Getting "up in arms about stuff" that doesn't directly affect you doesn't mean your opinions shouldn't be voiced.
I'm at least as much within my rights to criticize sexist jackasses as they are to behave like sexist jackasses. Don't like it? Try not being a sexist jackass.
Let's also ban anyone with darker skin from attending because we know that the typical gamer can't help but use the "N" word too. Brilliant reasoning.
Edit: Did anyone downvoting me bother to read the article? This is exactly the reasoning they are using to ban women from this event.
Edit: Did anyone downvoting me bother to read the article? This is exactly the reasoning they are using to ban women from this event.
You probably got downvoted because you repeated the article and didn't add anything. I come to comment threads for original discussion.
I added an illustrative analogy that wasn't in the original article. Maybe it was too obvious? Thanks for the feedback.
Edit: Since we're getting pretty deep in the comments here and the timer is in effect... To joshuacc: I did miss that line. Looks like the parent here is right I didn't add anything to the discussion. Thanks!
Edit: Since we're getting pretty deep in the comments here and the timer is in effect... To joshuacc: I did miss that line. Looks like the parent here is right I didn't add anything to the discussion. Thanks!
Perhaps you missed this in the original article:
I wonder if this party would so outwardly ban any black gamers from registering. Because it would be so, you know, uncomfortable to hear them being insulted.
I wonder if this party would so outwardly ban any black gamers from registering. Because it would be so, you know, uncomfortable to hear them being insulted.
You're absolutely right, I did miss that line when I read the original article.
Countered - I was thinking sarcasm along these lines too.
It basically is saying that the organizers either don’t want to put the effort into policing language at their event, or don’t trust the men to be mature and responsible enough to adhere to event policies.
I'm not sure if "or" is the right word there...
I'm not sure if "or" is the right word there...
Fundamentalist religious societies often use the same line of reasoning: women are not allowed to walk around unveiled or allowed to do pretty much anything because they are powerless and ostensibly have to be protected from society as much as society needs to be protected from the unrest their public presence causes. The deeper "logic" here is that women are held responsible for the abuse they are provoking just by being around, and also that they're somehow not mature enough to handle themselves.
This is exactly the same reasoning as banning, say, black people on the grounds that they might cause unrest among KKK attendees who might be present.
In one line: this is the most insultingly stupid thing ever and it's happening not only in Texas but all over the world. I just wish it didn't happen in so-called free societies at all.