Debit card apps for kids are collecting a shocking amount of personal data(vice.com)
vice.com
Debit card apps for kids are collecting a shocking amount of personal data
https://www.vice.com/en/article/4avqx3/debit-card-apps-for-kids-are-collecting-a-shocking-amount-of-personal-data
13 comments
> especially when I started his savings account at something crazy like a 500% interest rate
Yikes. What are you going to do when your child learns about compound interest?
The "Parents are untrustworthy and break promises" lesson sounds like a bad plan to me!
Yikes. What are you going to do when your child learns about compound interest?
The "Parents are untrustworthy and break promises" lesson sounds like a bad plan to me!
I thought starting him at an 8% interest wouldn't give him the motivation. After a few months we had a talk and he saw the power of compound interest based on these crazy numbers, and we've adjusted it downwards since then. Of course he was a bit disappointed but understood this was closer to the real world.
>He used to give me cash when he bought Robux etc but cash is also near useless for me.
I find this amazing. I live in New York and use cash for the vast majority of my purchases.
I find this amazing. I live in New York and use cash for the vast majority of my purchases.
Most flyover states (Nevada excluded, casinos love cash) see 95%+ retail payments with cards. Cash is regarded as weird, especially anything over a $20 bill.
>but cash is also near useless for me.
Did your bank/ATM stop accepting it? Do you never settle debts with your friends?
Did your bank/ATM stop accepting it? Do you never settle debts with your friends?
Honestly I completely forgot ATMs accepted cash! And my bank doesn't even have branches within 500 miles. As for friends, I mostly use Square Cash or Apple Pay (or, hesitantly, Venmo, though even with all the privacy enabled I don't love it).
> Did your bank/ATM stop accepting it?
not OP, but my bank literally does not accept cash deposits at its branches, nor does it operate any ATMs. I'm pretty sure I could deposit cash at a 3rd party ATM, but I've never tested that. anyway, I only visit an ATM a few times a year on the rare occasion that I do business with someone who only accepts cash.
> Do you never settle debts with your friends?
all the time, with venmo.
I do understand an respect the privacy argument for cash. but in most cases, it's not worth the inconvenience or sacrificing the 3-5% cashback I get on most purchases.
not OP, but my bank literally does not accept cash deposits at its branches, nor does it operate any ATMs. I'm pretty sure I could deposit cash at a 3rd party ATM, but I've never tested that. anyway, I only visit an ATM a few times a year on the rare occasion that I do business with someone who only accepts cash.
> Do you never settle debts with your friends?
all the time, with venmo.
I do understand an respect the privacy argument for cash. but in most cases, it's not worth the inconvenience or sacrificing the 3-5% cashback I get on most purchases.
And here we have one more example of how our world is turning into an utterly dystopian shit hole of total always-on surveillance. But hey! Never mind all that and its implications. Gotta have that convenience, and of course, that sweet, sweet 3-5% cashback thing... So much better than a modicum of privacy in the intimate details of a daily life.
God help us if a truly authoritarian Hitler or Stalinist-type regime creeps into power in a large western country. They won't need to build surveillance structures at all. Everything will already be firmly in place thanks to increments of "convenience".
God help us if a truly authoritarian Hitler or Stalinist-type regime creeps into power in a large western country. They won't need to build surveillance structures at all. Everything will already be firmly in place thanks to increments of "convenience".
Yeah! Screw useful things! Anyone who bases their choices on utility may as well get in their car right now to go hunt Jews for the pogrom.
500% interest rate O.o that might just set unrealistic expectations when for so long interest rates have been at _best_ 2% on a savings account
On his saving account, i think that's a pretty good motivation to save money then to use a debit card...i thinks it's a great idea.
Many posts here questioning why a kid needs/wants a debt card. I think most would be less surprised to know many things kids want to buy are digital, specifically app subs and virtual currency (i.e., robux). Even a 4-year old will be asking for an AppStore gift card to sub to Sago Mini
> why a kid needs/wants
Needs and wants are extremely different things. Let's not merge them together.
Needs and wants are extremely different things. Let's not merge them together.
Psychological needs are needs.
A lot of old people yelling at clouds in this thread. Needs, wants, in my day, get the belt, etc.
I want my child to be safe online and I want them to be able to communicate with their friends through the medium most children are using. These two things don’t have to be mutually exclusive and I can still be a good parent.
I want my child to be safe online and I want them to be able to communicate with their friends through the medium most children are using. These two things don’t have to be mutually exclusive and I can still be a good parent.
I gave my daughter a debit card when she was 13 and put some weekly amount on it for the next 10 years. She's now an adult who has the ability to make sound financial decisions even though her mother has a spending addiction and a personality disorder. I strongly disagree that it is a bad idea.
The bad idea is those companies then sharing information about children that should be private and parents should have a say in. Blaming parents when companies have outrageous privacy policies regarding child accounts is ridiculous. We have to teach our children to survive in this world.
My 9 year old triplets all have greenlight cards. This article is very disturbing. But they are learning fiscal agency, which is something my generation wasn't taught at all. When I finally got a job (at 15) it was way too late for me. I spent it all on coin-op video games. That might be reasonable at 9, but not at 15.
The bad idea is those companies then sharing information about children that should be private and parents should have a say in. Blaming parents when companies have outrageous privacy policies regarding child accounts is ridiculous. We have to teach our children to survive in this world.
My 9 year old triplets all have greenlight cards. This article is very disturbing. But they are learning fiscal agency, which is something my generation wasn't taught at all. When I finally got a job (at 15) it was way too late for me. I spent it all on coin-op video games. That might be reasonable at 9, but not at 15.
If I had a kid they would not be allowed to use Apps or have a Google account.
Sure I'd give them a laptop, I would even probably give them unsupervised access to the web after they seemed ready, but Apps are no good even for most adults.
Sure I'd give them a laptop, I would even probably give them unsupervised access to the web after they seemed ready, but Apps are no good even for most adults.
You're kid will be very upset when they are slowly excluded from all of their friend groups when noone wants to email or text just one member of the group. Sad reality of it.
Children get upset when they’re not allowed to get a tattoo or eat candy for dinner. Hell, if they’re not getting upset regularly than you’re probably doing something wrong.
There’s a bit of a difference between not getting candy, and not having any friends. You’re doing your kid no favours if you think that’s a plus.
> not having any friends
Not having any friends is unlikely. But if their friends are connecting and coördinating on their phones, the odd one out will be at a disadvantage. Depending on how close they are, this could be resolved by them finding a workaround as a group. (For example, buying a prepaid smartphone.)
Not having any friends is unlikely. But if their friends are connecting and coördinating on their phones, the odd one out will be at a disadvantage. Depending on how close they are, this could be resolved by them finding a workaround as a group. (For example, buying a prepaid smartphone.)
If those kids are actually their friends, they’ll make it work.
I can say from personal experience, this is absolute not the case. When everyone is using a service you aren't using, you get left out and you're less able to make friends in the first place.
Even if you do manage to make friends, a lot of people won't remember you're the only person they know who isn't able to see the facebook event everyone else is invited to.
Even if you do manage to make friends, a lot of people won't remember you're the only person they know who isn't able to see the facebook event everyone else is invited to.
Exactly! They're not necessarily being mean, and this isn't even a "kids" thing, either: it's just humans. I have the same problem, as a grown adult.
I'm very anti-technology for software dev, especially for kids, and pro "who cares, the kid can get over it, they'll be fine" in general, but that's a recipe for going to the wrong place at the wrong time to meet up when your close friends remember to CC you but then others on the thread modify the arrangements and everyone forgets that they have to send you your own, special message to let you know. And having that happen enough times that people get uncomfortable even notifying you in the first place, and annoyed at having to go out of their way to account for your (to them) pointless quirk.
A few years ago an old friend of mine died. This was announced on Facebook. I'm not on Facebook. Nobody told me until a couple months later.
It's a basic fact of life that the more friction there is to doing something, the less that thing will get done. Sure, some people will manage to make it work, but others won't be so lucky.
It's a basic fact of life that the more friction there is to doing something, the less that thing will get done. Sure, some people will manage to make it work, but others won't be so lucky.
How do you make "actual" friends if the baseline is to be in the group chat. Good friends start as an acquaintance.
Imagine your kid starts school for the first time and everyone shares their group chat QR code. Your kid can't and now will slowly be left behind as other kids set up plans to go skate, game ,whatever.
Imagine your kid starts school for the first time and everyone shares their group chat QR code. Your kid can't and now will slowly be left behind as other kids set up plans to go skate, game ,whatever.
A lot of oblivious green bubbles in this thread
What is "green bubbles" a reference to? I understand what you mean, I think, I've just not heard that phrase before.
Also, totally agree.
Also, totally agree.
It's a reference to the green background messages in iMessage, which indicate that the other person is not using iMessage.
Ah right. I'm on Android so didn't realise, thanks.
And to add further, they don’t know they are being excluded from some more interactive imessage group chats or at the very least talked about or noticed
They rationalize their choices with “I don't want to be around superficial people like that anyway” not realizing just how many people are judging and questioning their decision making process
“oh god someone thats going to talk my ear off about all the control they have over their phone but cant share a photo when signal drops on a hike”
Anyway hope it gets better, it shouldn't be “wealthy Americans use Apple devices and ignore cross platform chat apps” but right now it is. Maybe Apple’s Imessage and Airdrop go cross platform and help fix this culture, instead of relying on Google and a ton of OEMs to improve a UX they dont care about. People don’t want to send unencrypted SMS.
They rationalize their choices with “I don't want to be around superficial people like that anyway” not realizing just how many people are judging and questioning their decision making process
“oh god someone thats going to talk my ear off about all the control they have over their phone but cant share a photo when signal drops on a hike”
Anyway hope it gets better, it shouldn't be “wealthy Americans use Apple devices and ignore cross platform chat apps” but right now it is. Maybe Apple’s Imessage and Airdrop go cross platform and help fix this culture, instead of relying on Google and a ton of OEMs to improve a UX they dont care about. People don’t want to send unencrypted SMS.
> They rationalize their choices with “I don't want to be around superficial people like that anyway”
This is such a laughably exaggerated view. I would bet less than 1% of Android users choose not to use Apple because of some anti-superiority viewpoint.
This is such a laughably exaggerated view. I would bet less than 1% of Android users choose not to use Apple because of some anti-superiority viewpoint.
But remember, poor Apple shouldn't be hit with an anti-trust lawsuit over this.
haha ehh it is just a notification that the SMS is unencrypted, whereas iMessage is encrypted
the culture itself created the rest of the consternation in favor of Apple. Apple can successfully lean on it being an unencrypted notification than an anti competitive practice. Even two iMessage users can randomly fail back to green bubbles and the SMS network, and it has nothing to do with competitors.
the culture itself created the rest of the consternation in favor of Apple. Apple can successfully lean on it being an unencrypted notification than an anti competitive practice. Even two iMessage users can randomly fail back to green bubbles and the SMS network, and it has nothing to do with competitors.
Youth is a time when people develop friendships. The interactions come first, and friendships are a result of that.
haha! or they'll make it work by not being friends. If a social group is based around playing a specific online game, why would they be friends with your kid if they don't even play?
You can't use a dismissive tone on HN just because someone said something obviously stupid and indicative of poor social understanding. No wonder you got voted into the grey.
If you think what I said was obviously stupid or indicative of poor social understanding, you should respond to me directly and at least explain why you think that.
When I was a kid, friendships were made in person: at school, extra curricular activities, at the park, etc. Maybe I’m so out of touch and kids never actually see each other face to face anymore and live entirely online these days. My friends and I did play games online together, and at school we’d brainstorm games that we could all play together. The point was to do stuff together, so we’re fine ways to make sure we were doing stuff together.
Are you telling me things have changed so much that nobody makes friends in person anymore?
When I was a kid, friendships were made in person: at school, extra curricular activities, at the park, etc. Maybe I’m so out of touch and kids never actually see each other face to face anymore and live entirely online these days. My friends and I did play games online together, and at school we’d brainstorm games that we could all play together. The point was to do stuff together, so we’re fine ways to make sure we were doing stuff together.
Are you telling me things have changed so much that nobody makes friends in person anymore?
> Hell, if they’re not getting upset regularly than you’re probably doing something wrong
Why so?
Why so?
There has been some interesting psychological research into insecure attachment styles in children (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_children has a good overview).
In short: It's good for children to be upset and afraid of new situations. That's how they learn that they can rely on their caregivers, who ideally support them in overcoming those situations.
Children that lack this mechanism (and e.g. are disinterested in new situations, or completely overwhelmed by them to the point where they cannot act at all) potentially lack that skill in adulthood as well.
In short: It's good for children to be upset and afraid of new situations. That's how they learn that they can rely on their caregivers, who ideally support them in overcoming those situations.
Children that lack this mechanism (and e.g. are disinterested in new situations, or completely overwhelmed by them to the point where they cannot act at all) potentially lack that skill in adulthood as well.
That does not mean that if your kids are not upset, you are doing something wrong.
That does not mean you have to design those situations regularly. You dont need to upset your kids. It does not mean upset is something that you as parent should always welcome or ignore.
That does not mean you have to design those situations regularly. You dont need to upset your kids. It does not mean upset is something that you as parent should always welcome or ignore.
Because children need to learn to both test boundaries and respect them.
The hubris to think something as controllable as what's served for dinner is in the same realm as shaping your kids' social circles! You'll learn eventually!
Hopefully my kid(s) will be the one to convince their friends to use better communication apps. Perhaps when the kids are younger before they get phones, I can convince their friends' parents to use the better platforms.
Speaking as someone who lost an entire social circle because of conscientiously objecting to Facebook: yeah, good luck with that.
> conscientiously objecting to Facebook
Does that mean not having a WhatsApp account as well?
Does that mean not having a WhatsApp account as well?
Yes. Or Instagram, or any other Facebook-owned property as far as I know, and I do check.
It's also why, last time I heard from a Facebook recruiter, I told him to make sure the next one to cold-call me had their general counsel's contact info handy so I'd know where to have my own attorney send the cease-and-desist. Seems to have had the intended effect, so far at least.
It's also why, last time I heard from a Facebook recruiter, I told him to make sure the next one to cold-call me had their general counsel's contact info handy so I'd know where to have my own attorney send the cease-and-desist. Seems to have had the intended effect, so far at least.
Second this. Signal had some momentum with some of my contacts, but unfortunately i think they're all back on whatsapp.
Yeah, I saw a sudden flurry of people getting Signal, but it faded and now we're back to WhatsApp.
Yeah but who will be more upset later on in life? Their self indulgent peers whose parents allow them to be primed by predatory system are likely to not end up very well. At least not all of them
>> If I had a kid they would not be allowed to use Apps or have a Google account.
In our school district (Arlington Public Schools in Virginia), children get assigned Google GSuite accounts by default starting in Kindergarten. They are used for a variety of things, including authentication to multiple school apps.
In our school district (Arlington Public Schools in Virginia), children get assigned Google GSuite accounts by default starting in Kindergarten. They are used for a variety of things, including authentication to multiple school apps.
Yeah, and our last school district pushed GPOs to my son's personal Chromebook. Really pissed me off. I was trying to help him troubleshoot an issue and dev tools were disabled and greyed out in the chrome settings. When we switched back to his personal account they were back.
I don't agree that kids should have dev tools disabled because that just seems counter productive but the school manages the accounts and has a responsibility over student safeguarding. I'd be concerned if they weren't enforcing policies on students accounts.
annoying, but one of the benefits of chromebooks is the account isolation. I prefer this to the idea of my domain-controlled policies being blended with those of the school district.
Sure, now lets try to apply that in practice with a kid angry at you for years.
> Sure, now lets try to apply that in practice with a kid angry at you for years.
That's called "being a parent" in my circle? I have a toddler that loves to throw the "you're not my friend!" at me when I cut off the TV and tell her it is time for dinner.
I never had a cell-phone until 17, despite all my friends having had theirs as early as the middle school years. Never mattered much in my case. I didn't have an X-Box 360 with Halo 2 and online gaming despite many of my peers having had that. Not sure why this is being seen as a "must have."
That's called "being a parent" in my circle? I have a toddler that loves to throw the "you're not my friend!" at me when I cut off the TV and tell her it is time for dinner.
I never had a cell-phone until 17, despite all my friends having had theirs as early as the middle school years. Never mattered much in my case. I didn't have an X-Box 360 with Halo 2 and online gaming despite many of my peers having had that. Not sure why this is being seen as a "must have."
These days a cell phone is often pretty much required to reasonably access some essential services.
For a kid? Such as?
Friends.
Well, they said “services”, so I was curious what they meant there, since it sounded like something actually required, like to get signed up for school or something. I guess social media services might be what they were talking about, though.
Oddly, my children have no such issue.
The whole point here is that parents should be able to guide their children into becoming social citizens in today's world - which means online. We're here to discuss parental agency and online privacy for children.
We aren't here to discuss how great your parenting skills are. My ex has a narcissistic personality disorder and ... well. Any time somebody brags about how great a parent they are - especially when it's in the context of controlling children - I automatically think they aren't a great parent. That's probably just me and you probably are a really great parent, but I promise you I'm not the only one here thinking it.
We aren't here to discuss how great your parenting skills are. My ex has a narcissistic personality disorder and ... well. Any time somebody brags about how great a parent they are - especially when it's in the context of controlling children - I automatically think they aren't a great parent. That's probably just me and you probably are a really great parent, but I promise you I'm not the only one here thinking it.
That's tough to guess. Who knows if they're being left out of some events.
This may shock you, but things have changed significantly in the past 20 years. Technology is even more necessary for social activity than when we were young. And I remember being the kid at the birthday parties that couldn't play video games, and couldn't participate in conversation at the lunch table because video games were most of what my friends talked about. Made me a permanent second-class citizen in my social group, which sucked. Got to the point where I literally did research on the games (reading strategy guides and such) just to have something to talk about. If the group plays poker, and you aren't allowed because of a moral stance on gambling, that's going to hurt your social opportunities quite substantially.
Also don't make the classic mistake of assuming your kids have all the same variables you did, or can approach the same variables the same way. You have to adapt your experiences to their environment and their personality/needs, often with different outcomes than what you experienced. Most parents are too cowardly for that and mess up their kids with strict enforcement of obsolete rules or letting them run wild with too little structure/guidance.
Also don't make the classic mistake of assuming your kids have all the same variables you did, or can approach the same variables the same way. You have to adapt your experiences to their environment and their personality/needs, often with different outcomes than what you experienced. Most parents are too cowardly for that and mess up their kids with strict enforcement of obsolete rules or letting them run wild with too little structure/guidance.
> If the group plays poker, and you aren't allowed because of a moral stance on gambling, that's going to hurt your social opportunities quite substantially.
In this specific case, I dont want them do well in gambling social system. Seen damage it causes in long term.
Generally I agree with you tho. Just gambling group is fine for my kids to not fit in.
In this specific case, I dont want them do well in gambling social system. Seen damage it causes in long term.
Generally I agree with you tho. Just gambling group is fine for my kids to not fit in.
> Technology is even more necessary for social activity than when we were young.
Oddly, my own children do not have that same issue. In a world of billions, there are no universal claims like this.
Oddly, my own children do not have that same issue. In a world of billions, there are no universal claims like this.
just curious, how old are you children? you mentioned having a toddler further up. it makes sense that most social activities are planned by the parents anyway at that age.
I remember things starting to change in middle school. kids started making same-day plans for after school and shooting their parents a quick text to say where they were going. I tried using the school's phone a few times when I was invited, but there wasn't always time to visit the office between classes. that was pretty clunky to do one or more times per week, and I knew I would be in big trouble if I wasn't there when my dad came to pick me up. so I just had to accept that I wouldn't be participating in most of those spontaneous hangouts until I got a phone.
like you said, everyone is different. some kids are charismatic enough that everyone else will work around whatever inconveniences they bring. others are not. I knew my parents had a very firm stance on stuff like phones, so I didn't bother complaining about it much.
I remember things starting to change in middle school. kids started making same-day plans for after school and shooting their parents a quick text to say where they were going. I tried using the school's phone a few times when I was invited, but there wasn't always time to visit the office between classes. that was pretty clunky to do one or more times per week, and I knew I would be in big trouble if I wasn't there when my dad came to pick me up. so I just had to accept that I wouldn't be participating in most of those spontaneous hangouts until I got a phone.
like you said, everyone is different. some kids are charismatic enough that everyone else will work around whatever inconveniences they bring. others are not. I knew my parents had a very firm stance on stuff like phones, so I didn't bother complaining about it much.
Some of my daughter's second grade friends already have personal cell phones.
I am (very) reliably informed that at one nearby school with 6th-8th grade, almost every kid, even the ones from very poor or unstable families, has a cell phone. The tipping point for "over half of my classmates have cell phones" seems to be in the 3rd-5th grade range.
The schools let them carry them around all day, too, which is very confusing to me. They're not supposed to use them, but they do all the time, and teachers/admin are reluctant to confiscate them on more than a "you can have this back at the end of the day" basis (and usually not even that), because parents freak the fuck out if you hold on to their kids' phone overnight, no matter what (and, with limits only way at the extreme end, I really mean "no matter what") they were doing with it.
I am (very) reliably informed that at one nearby school with 6th-8th grade, almost every kid, even the ones from very poor or unstable families, has a cell phone. The tipping point for "over half of my classmates have cell phones" seems to be in the 3rd-5th grade range.
The schools let them carry them around all day, too, which is very confusing to me. They're not supposed to use them, but they do all the time, and teachers/admin are reluctant to confiscate them on more than a "you can have this back at the end of the day" basis (and usually not even that), because parents freak the fuck out if you hold on to their kids' phone overnight, no matter what (and, with limits only way at the extreme end, I really mean "no matter what") they were doing with it.
You know, now that I think about it, I'm not sure where I land on this issue.
On the one hand, kids not being able to get off their phone to the point it impacts their performance at school is worrying.
On the other hand, school is kid prison, and I really can't begrudge any kid who, when having to listen to a teacher for hours on end, takes any opportunity to do something more interesting they find.
On the one hand, kids not being able to get off their phone to the point it impacts their performance at school is worrying.
On the other hand, school is kid prison, and I really can't begrudge any kid who, when having to listen to a teacher for hours on end, takes any opportunity to do something more interesting they find.
It's mostly social media (=bullying), games, or snapping/sharing creep shots of classmates, from what I've heard. To a substantial degree the phones are just amplifying what's already bad about school.
Agreed about the entire enterprise of school, as it exists, kinda being horrible kid-prison to begin with, though.
Agreed about the entire enterprise of school, as it exists, kinda being horrible kid-prison to begin with, though.
> It's mostly social media (=bullying), games, or snapping/sharing creep shots of classmates, from what I've heard. To a substantial degree the phones are just amplifying what's already bad about school.
I'm pretty sure there's a selection effect in what you heard (eg you only hear stuff about kids using phones was something goes wrong enough to be headline-worthy).
For instance, I'm no fan of social media, but I wouldn't say it boils down to bullying and nothing else.
I'm pretty sure there's a selection effect in what you heard (eg you only hear stuff about kids using phones was something goes wrong enough to be headline-worthy).
For instance, I'm no fan of social media, but I wouldn't say it boils down to bullying and nothing else.
I would be annoyed too over that. I do need my kids to have phone, cause that is how we coordinate normally and not having them would be pain in ass for me.
Basically all effective punishment a school might use, if humiliation and corporal punishment are off the table (obviously, they are), ends up inconveniencing the parents. The most a school can directly do to a kid that doesn't inconvenience parents is make them stay in a different room than usual during school hours (in-school detention). Most other options have been (and I'm not arguing they shouldn't have) eliminated. Physical and mental stress for kids aren't allowed, so it's mental and financial stress for parents instead. That's what's in the toolbox.
Doesn't matter in this case, though, since most schools seem to have just declared defeat on the issue.
Doesn't matter in this case, though, since most schools seem to have just declared defeat on the issue.
I am glad my kids teachers were not thinking this way and managed class with less helplesness.
Schools vary a lot. At some it's very easy not to appear, or be, helpless. At others, nearly impossible. Most of the reason for the difference is who's attending, and the attitudes of their parents. Teachers tend to prefer the easy ones—which are also usually the "good" schools, academically—even at lower pay. The differences in stress level, and in how easy or difficult it is to be, or to seem to be, good at one's job, can be extreme.
Parent here, have you asked them if not having a phone has been a problem? Or are you just assuming it isn't because it hasn't been a problem with them for you.
How can you be so sure that they're not being affected socially?
Because they don't tell you about it?
Because they don't tell you about it?
In my 13-yr-olds class only 2 people don't have iPhones. Don't under-estimate the social impact of being excluded from that otherwise class-wide group chat.
If you're in the toddler stage you control almost every variable. The game changes once they hit > 8.
If you're in the toddler stage you control almost every variable. The game changes once they hit > 8.
You may not be aware but an iPhone isn't required to participate in group chats: MMS and XMPP still exist, there are even bridges between them.
> they would not be allowed to use Apps or have a Google account
On one level, I agree with this. On another, I remember the restrictions my parents were convinced they had on me to which trivial workarounds existed.
On one level, I agree with this. On another, I remember the restrictions my parents were convinced they had on me to which trivial workarounds existed.
I learned about MAC filtering and how to get around it with MAC spoofing at an early age this way!
I understand where you are coming from, but you'd be surprised how quickly your abstract principles collide with reality. All of my kids use Google apps in school; what would yours do?
"If I had a kid". There you go. Get back with us when you have to actually do the job you are criticizing.
I have three kids, but find it more funny than maddening when I hear this. We've all been there: as teenagers, young technologists, pre-parents. Plans are simple; reality is messy.
Parenting is about picking and choosing your battles, trying to get the fundamentals right and conceding the minor losses. You do your best and adapt along the way; any master plan will inevitably get the details wrong.
Parenting is about picking and choosing your battles, trying to get the fundamentals right and conceding the minor losses. You do your best and adapt along the way; any master plan will inevitably get the details wrong.
What does a kid need a special debit card for? When they’re old enough to get a job they can just get a regular bank account.
Purely for the software it's coupled with, to teach them about budgeting and basic financial literacy (interest rates etc).
How many kids do you know with a job?
Now that a lot of society is cashless, children need a way to spend their pocket money even.
Now that a lot of society is cashless, children need a way to spend their pocket money even.
We have two different teenagers in our neighborhood that help for a couple hours a week to clean the kitchen. Also, it seems that almost every restaurant and store in the Charleston area has a ton of teenage employees.
I was considering teenagers “kids”.
Surely parents can just use their own debit card when the kid needs something that can’t be bought with cash? Special debit cards for kids seem to add unnecessary complexity (and opportunity for abuse) to the solution for a really simple problem.
Surely parents can just use their own debit card when the kid needs something that can’t be bought with cash? Special debit cards for kids seem to add unnecessary complexity (and opportunity for abuse) to the solution for a really simple problem.
> Surely parents can just use their own debit card when the kid needs something that can’t be bought with cash?
What if the child's gone to the store on their own?
What if the child's gone to the store on their own?
Stores accept cash.
Where I live, many do not anymore. That's a trend that's only going to spread and accelerate. Hence the product.
NYC banned cashless stores because they exclude the un-/under-banked
Really? Mind if I ask where? As much as cash use has dwindled here in the UK (at least anecdotally) I’ve never come across a store that won’t accept cash. I know a couple that didn’t accept it early in the pandemic (due to fear of covid spreading on cash) but that didn’t last long.
I got a drink at Happy Lemon in Sunnyvale, CA a couple days ago and they didn't take cash.
Was there another place to get a drink that accepted cash?
You're moving the goalpost.
The statement wasn't "there exists a store that still accepts cash", but "many stores no longer accept cash".
The statement wasn't "there exists a store that still accepts cash", but "many stores no longer accept cash".
The larger point is not to send your kid to that store if they only accept a debt card.
They only exist if you keep going to those stores.
They only exist if you keep going to those stores.
Do your children not have minds of their own about which store they want to go to?
Why would that matter to this discussion? I want x from retailer y. Retailer y doesn't accept cash. I use a card. If you have an objection to using cards, you're certainly free to decline to make the purchase. Nothing in any of that seems like it would be age related either. What's the difference between having $20, or a debit card linked to an account with $20?
Some people refuse or can’t have a bank account. Not accepting cash ends up being discriminatory.
Fair enough. The point about the unbanked is pretty convincing.
I'm sure there are plenty, albeit not exactly the same thing. The question asked for a specific existence proof for a retailer that didn't take cash and I provided it.
In my village in the UK about half the coffee shops and bakeries and things were going cashless just before the pandemic anyway. I think it’s pretty common now.
Genuinely really surprised at that! Particularly in a village - I’d have thought smaller places would be the last holdouts, not the first to go cashless.
The pandemic killed a bunch of business's demand for cash so they stopped accepting it.
How do you transfer cash to the child from a remote location? Western Union is not exactly cheap or convenient.
This assumes the parent is either with kid constantly or parent gave his card to kid.
You cant imagine 9 years old to go to buy ice cream or toy?
You cant imagine 9 years old to go to buy ice cream or toy?
Sure, you can give them cash. If the parents aren’t around (e.g. they’re with a babysitter)…they can wait until the parents are around to give them cash.
> …they can wait
Well now you can see the point of the product then... it's about giving your children some freedom and responsibility for themselves.
Well now you can see the point of the product then... it's about giving your children some freedom and responsibility for themselves.
But then they might learn how to make a buying decision based on its impact on some long term balance, not just based on "is the money available now: yes/no".
Sounds good, but at the same time they'll miss out on quite a bit of learning that almost everything (that a child might want) can be had if only they beg/negotiate/throw a fit hard enough. Life gives me the impression that in a ruthless-takes-all world the negotiation skills taught by the latter have far more impact than the being reasonable about money skills taught by the former.
(sorry for the sarcasm)
Sounds good, but at the same time they'll miss out on quite a bit of learning that almost everything (that a child might want) can be had if only they beg/negotiate/throw a fit hard enough. Life gives me the impression that in a ruthless-takes-all world the negotiation skills taught by the latter have far more impact than the being reasonable about money skills taught by the former.
(sorry for the sarcasm)
I think cash is good alternative. No data collection, no surprises, just learn to count the chance you receive back and you're good. The problem I have with cards is that money is less tangible and it is easier for kids to learn the value of money by handling coins and paper. But surely, I agree with others that this method of payment will become obsolete.
The whole point of pocket money is that it is theirs and you dont gatekeep every buy.
And kids can go to store without babysitter.
And kids can go to store without babysitter.
1. Not “gatekeeping” their decision. They just might have to wait a few hours before they can carry it out.
2. I’m not sure of your point here. I meant if the parent wasn’t around to provide the cash the kid might have to wait until they are around. Not that they need someone to take them to the store (although this is highly dependent on where you live and the age of the kid).
2. I’m not sure of your point here. I meant if the parent wasn’t around to provide the cash the kid might have to wait until they are around. Not that they need someone to take them to the store (although this is highly dependent on where you live and the age of the kid).
1. If they have to get me for each buy, I have power to gatekeep. And they need to report to me every buy by design. It is clearly not the same thing, it is clearly less practical.
It is completely different then having own money - which in fact allow all of us to pay when we want what we want as long as we have money.
Nobody is saying kids will die if they dont have own card. They wont die if they dont have books or toy cars either. But it makes perfect sense for familly to want those things, no matter how much people yell on clouds about kids not living as if it was 1836.
2. The point was to respond to babysitter assumption to make clear what I mean .
It is completely different then having own money - which in fact allow all of us to pay when we want what we want as long as we have money.
Nobody is saying kids will die if they dont have own card. They wont die if they dont have books or toy cars either. But it makes perfect sense for familly to want those things, no matter how much people yell on clouds about kids not living as if it was 1836.
2. The point was to respond to babysitter assumption to make clear what I mean .
But that’s the point - the child may want to spend their money spontaneously or even to buy something private.
Is this some weird american thing where kids can’t go outside by themselves?
Maybe your kid went to hang out with some friends after school, asks for money to go to the cinema or just to get some food?
Why would you go out of your way to make your life difficult by avoiding debit cards?
Maybe your kid went to hang out with some friends after school, asks for money to go to the cinema or just to get some food?
Why would you go out of your way to make your life difficult by avoiding debit cards?
That weird American thing is called suburban sprawl :)
I never lived within walking distance of a store as a kid.
I never lived within walking distance of a store as a kid.
I'm struggling to help my kids (teen through < 10) understand the value representation of money. It helps to covet a physical item, even if it's just a piece of plastic/paper. Money is hard to undestand when you don't work like a dog to earn very little of it, so this is even harder for kids.
My kids got this through pocket money and being or not being able to buy stuff. "I need 6$ to buy that and have only 3$" is how they got it. We moved on virtual money fairly fast.
> Money is hard to undestand when you don't work like a dog to earn very little of it, so this is even harder for kids.
It is not? If you role model financial decisions in front of them where they see, they pick yout habits.
> Money is hard to undestand when you don't work like a dog to earn very little of it, so this is even harder for kids.
It is not? If you role model financial decisions in front of them where they see, they pick yout habits.
It's the next stage of capitalist indoctrination. As a society, we aim to turn our children into consumers as quickly as possible.
We advertise sugary, fatty, fast food to them on the TV shows they watch. We get them addicted early to the dopamine hit of a the next big toy, an obsession which carries through to high tech gadgets and cars in adulthood. My local grocery store even has a tiny child-sized shopping cart with a flag on it that says "Future Customer in Training", so kids can mimic their parents as they consume.
In that context, debit cards for kids are a logical next-step. As soon as they hit 18 and can earn an income, now companies will have a nice fat history of buying habits and consumer behavior for these kids that makes them easily targetable.
We advertise sugary, fatty, fast food to them on the TV shows they watch. We get them addicted early to the dopamine hit of a the next big toy, an obsession which carries through to high tech gadgets and cars in adulthood. My local grocery store even has a tiny child-sized shopping cart with a flag on it that says "Future Customer in Training", so kids can mimic their parents as they consume.
In that context, debit cards for kids are a logical next-step. As soon as they hit 18 and can earn an income, now companies will have a nice fat history of buying habits and consumer behavior for these kids that makes them easily targetable.
Teenagers working isn't really a thing anymore
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/disappe...
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/disappe...
Look, the EU now has decided to track ALL private communications by everyone talking to any European. "Because children"!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727
How does this compare to that? Note that this is after they've chosen that using medical information is fair game for debt recovery, so it's a matter of time before this information, too, is used for that. Sadly our societies have chosen that surveillance is the future, and a lot will be needed to fight it at this point.
Is the fight to focus on really that some banks might use this info to market loans? I mean, sure, it can damage people, but ... not nearly as much as government surveillance will.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727
How does this compare to that? Note that this is after they've chosen that using medical information is fair game for debt recovery, so it's a matter of time before this information, too, is used for that. Sadly our societies have chosen that surveillance is the future, and a lot will be needed to fight it at this point.
Is the fight to focus on really that some banks might use this info to market loans? I mean, sure, it can damage people, but ... not nearly as much as government surveillance will.
This seems like a curious data set because it’s likely to be often very misleading about the adult person’s interests.
I spent all my money on computer games at age 12. At 19 I thought they were pointless and never bought one for the next fifteen years. The teenage data set would have been worse than noise for someone trying to sell me stuff.
I spent all my money on computer games at age 12. At 19 I thought they were pointless and never bought one for the next fifteen years. The teenage data set would have been worse than noise for someone trying to sell me stuff.
Forget about them targeting you specifically. They can use you then to lure someone with similar traits now.
It's more shocking to me that parents are giving their kids cards and making them use apps for allowance.
We kept a ledger on the fridge where we credited my allowance and debited my purchases on my mom’s credit card.
I didn’t have a smartphone but I could text. Around 14 I wrote a little Rails app that would receive transactions via SMS from Twilio. We never ended up using it but it was fun to write. Shortly after that I got a joint checking account with a debit card in my name.
Not surprised at all.
I didn’t have a smartphone but I could text. Around 14 I wrote a little Rails app that would receive transactions via SMS from Twilio. We never ended up using it but it was fun to write. Shortly after that I got a joint checking account with a debit card in my name.
Not surprised at all.
Is it that shocking? I can count the number of times I used cash in the last 2 years on one hand thanks to covid. Everywhere that was a hold-out was forced adopt the "tap" cards. By the time I have kids and they grow up enough to start having an allowance will be 10 years from now and I don't think we'll be using cash more than now. The people making these apps obviously see that trend too.
I'm guessing you aren't a parent. How else can they buy those Fortnite skins? Robux? Minecoins?
If my kid isn't as offended by that stuff as I was when Bethesda rolled out horse armor as paid dlc then I raised them wrong.
Lol, the art of milking people has been perfected since then. You kid also won't have the same expectations as you of not paying for dlcs since that's just not the world they're gonna have grown in.
Hell, even car companies are trying their best to turn cars into a subscription service.
Hell, even car companies are trying their best to turn cars into a subscription service.
Having a saving account teaches kids a lot. Having a debt card teaches them to spend.
responsible spending is an important part of budgeting
> Having a saving account teaches kids a lot.
Growing up I always had this belief that wealth was about building a big savings account, and that rich people where like Scrooge McDuck swimming in big pools of money.
This is, imho, a fantastic piece of propaganda. It's incredible how often people will say things like "Jeff Bezos is only rich because he owns so much stock!" As soon as you get your first big RSU payout you realize it is insane to keep the majority, or even a sizable portion of your capital in cash.
Even Marx saw that Capital, by its definition, is in motion.
The lesson of a savings account is that you should hand your money over to banks so that they can use it. But most kids aren't taught what it really means to park your capital in a bank. I remember how many times I was given the "miracle of compound interest talk" but nobody get fantastically rich from the growing interest on their savings account.
Today that's even more ridiculous, interest rates are way, way down and inflation is starting to rise. Keeping more than enough money to serve as an emergency fund is the same as just burning some of it for fun.
We are in an insane debt bubble, but that doesn't change the reality of how life works in an insane debt bubble. Using credit to buy things today, when interest rates are low and inflation is rising is far more rational than putting money in a savings account.
A better lesson would be to use that cash to buy things that are useful and can help build skills, which can't be taken by a debt collector. A guitar is a better purchase than a bunch of digital music, a laptop to program on is a better purchase than an ipad, etc.
Growing up I always had this belief that wealth was about building a big savings account, and that rich people where like Scrooge McDuck swimming in big pools of money.
This is, imho, a fantastic piece of propaganda. It's incredible how often people will say things like "Jeff Bezos is only rich because he owns so much stock!" As soon as you get your first big RSU payout you realize it is insane to keep the majority, or even a sizable portion of your capital in cash.
Even Marx saw that Capital, by its definition, is in motion.
The lesson of a savings account is that you should hand your money over to banks so that they can use it. But most kids aren't taught what it really means to park your capital in a bank. I remember how many times I was given the "miracle of compound interest talk" but nobody get fantastically rich from the growing interest on their savings account.
Today that's even more ridiculous, interest rates are way, way down and inflation is starting to rise. Keeping more than enough money to serve as an emergency fund is the same as just burning some of it for fun.
We are in an insane debt bubble, but that doesn't change the reality of how life works in an insane debt bubble. Using credit to buy things today, when interest rates are low and inflation is rising is far more rational than putting money in a savings account.
A better lesson would be to use that cash to buy things that are useful and can help build skills, which can't be taken by a debt collector. A guitar is a better purchase than a bunch of digital music, a laptop to program on is a better purchase than an ipad, etc.
I see your point. But I think this is why I don't think either giving a kid a savings account nor a debit card alone teaches them anything. That said, I think a savings account offers much more valuable lessons to be learned, or at least it did for me growing up.
I saved money all the time as a kid because I was taught that saving is good. One of the first accounts I got was a savings account. However, I soon learned that I needed to access that money so I got a checking account and started to divide my deposits between each. And on and on, you get the point.
To this day I keep a cash savings -- I need it. Yes its not earning as much as my other investments, but I don't need it to. I need liquidity and I value being able to pull large chunks of my hard earned money from the bank to do a miriad of things: spontaneous vacation, buy a car, medical emergencies, etc.
I think both devices offer something to youth. However, it seems like giving kids debit cards leans in the wrong directions as far as valuable life lessons. I don't want my kids learning to spend their money. Kids are already great a spending my money. They need to understand how money actually works (beyond spending).
I saved money all the time as a kid because I was taught that saving is good. One of the first accounts I got was a savings account. However, I soon learned that I needed to access that money so I got a checking account and started to divide my deposits between each. And on and on, you get the point.
To this day I keep a cash savings -- I need it. Yes its not earning as much as my other investments, but I don't need it to. I need liquidity and I value being able to pull large chunks of my hard earned money from the bank to do a miriad of things: spontaneous vacation, buy a car, medical emergencies, etc.
I think both devices offer something to youth. However, it seems like giving kids debit cards leans in the wrong directions as far as valuable life lessons. I don't want my kids learning to spend their money. Kids are already great a spending my money. They need to understand how money actually works (beyond spending).
This makes no sense and in no way prepares them for the real world. Having a savings account where they can only put money in and can't easily withdraw from doesn't prepare them for the first job where they get paid in cash or cash equivalents. You think they'll still magically go put it into their savings account when they know they suddenly have the power to make an impulse buy?
So you're saying they should practice abstinence from spending over learning to spend wisely? :P
shocking
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Notably Step wouldn’t say whether they were selling data, whereas Greenlight said they weren’t and would remove the part of their privacy policy that reserves their right to do so in the future.
As others have mentioned, cash is near useless for children nowadays. He used to give me cash when he bought Robux etc but cash is also near useless for me.
I was concerned when I saw this headline but it's not quite clear to me what impact this would have on him, that wouldn't be gathered once he got a credit or debit card as an adult. Maybe because he literally purchases from only three places (Apple Store, Microsoft, Roblox) and donates to a panda charity.