Ask HN: Why don't more web developers found startups?
48 comments
Only some people are wired for it.
My wife is smart, hard-working, and has skills that would translate into much higher paychecks if she worked for herself. Even her hobbies could make her lots of money. I've tried numerous times to get her to start her own business, because I find entrepreneurship so fulfilling and I love the freedom and the challenges. I want to share the feeling with her and, frankly, I also want her to better understand me. Her complete lack of interest in starting her own business is so alien to me that we have really struggled to even communicate about it. I've bought her books and cut out articles of people that have started successful businesses in her field of interest in an attempt to entice her to the startup fold. She is completely not interested, and she gets tense and testy when I even suggest she start her own business.
One of her best explanations was that her very traditional, 'ladder-oriented' upbringing (father was a military officer, then a corporate man, and her mother was in academia) has made her most comfortable with a traditional job. She wants the safety and structure of working for someone else. Even if a startup would be more lucrative, fun, and flexible than her current job, her fear of the unknown outweighs those benefits. She doesn't want to have to always "figure out what to do next", and she doesn't want her income to be inconsistent.* She also needs quite a bit of external positive reinforcement for her emotional well-being (that is, she needs people telling her "Thatta girl!" when she does a great job in order to feel good and keep going.) She thinks a startup would be lonely and she thinks her self-confidence and motivation would falter without frequent external reinforcement from co-workers and supervisors. All of which is probably true.
Both of her parents are very educated (PhDs) and have always worked for someone else. They are also relatively wealthy. My parents didn't attend college, and are "rural middle-class," but they have both owned their own businesses. My parents also have some very wealthy entrepreneurial friends that I was around quite a bit as a child.
* I went from making $40K/yr working for someone else, to making more than that A MONTH working for myself. Even though I was making EXPONENTIALLY more money by working for myself, the income was sporadic, so my wife asked that I get a 'second job' making about $10 an hour as a 'backup'! She is completely emotional and irrational about money, and it drives me crazy.
My wife is smart, hard-working, and has skills that would translate into much higher paychecks if she worked for herself. Even her hobbies could make her lots of money. I've tried numerous times to get her to start her own business, because I find entrepreneurship so fulfilling and I love the freedom and the challenges. I want to share the feeling with her and, frankly, I also want her to better understand me. Her complete lack of interest in starting her own business is so alien to me that we have really struggled to even communicate about it. I've bought her books and cut out articles of people that have started successful businesses in her field of interest in an attempt to entice her to the startup fold. She is completely not interested, and she gets tense and testy when I even suggest she start her own business.
One of her best explanations was that her very traditional, 'ladder-oriented' upbringing (father was a military officer, then a corporate man, and her mother was in academia) has made her most comfortable with a traditional job. She wants the safety and structure of working for someone else. Even if a startup would be more lucrative, fun, and flexible than her current job, her fear of the unknown outweighs those benefits. She doesn't want to have to always "figure out what to do next", and she doesn't want her income to be inconsistent.* She also needs quite a bit of external positive reinforcement for her emotional well-being (that is, she needs people telling her "Thatta girl!" when she does a great job in order to feel good and keep going.) She thinks a startup would be lonely and she thinks her self-confidence and motivation would falter without frequent external reinforcement from co-workers and supervisors. All of which is probably true.
Both of her parents are very educated (PhDs) and have always worked for someone else. They are also relatively wealthy. My parents didn't attend college, and are "rural middle-class," but they have both owned their own businesses. My parents also have some very wealthy entrepreneurial friends that I was around quite a bit as a child.
* I went from making $40K/yr working for someone else, to making more than that A MONTH working for myself. Even though I was making EXPONENTIALLY more money by working for myself, the income was sporadic, so my wife asked that I get a 'second job' making about $10 an hour as a 'backup'! She is completely emotional and irrational about money, and it drives me crazy.
I find it hard to believe you were making over $480,000 a year and your wife insisted you get a second job making $10 an hour. Perhaps your calculations are off.
No, my calculations are not off. But thanks for the math check :-P
I understand the ridiculousness of what I'm saying. That is my f0Rking point. My wife is emotional and irrational about money, and especially so about having a CONSISTENT paycheck. [This is the same woman that actually thought briefly about declaring bankruptcy when she was younger, despite the fact that she had a large number of shares in a major bank at the time. It never entered her mind to sell the shares, because her grandfather had been president of the bank some time during the '70s, so the shares were "sentimental" and part of her "family heritage." Never mind the fact that she really needed the money, and the bank stock was starting to tank anyway.]
My wife is a wonderful, compassionate woman...so I try to overlook her big weird money issues.
She didn't specifically ask me to get a job making just $10/hr...that's just the way it worked out. She asked me to get a "low-stress" job that I could work after having worked 60-70 hours a week on my own business. It had to be a job that I was qualified to do, and that offered (backup) health insurance. Since we lived in a somewhat rural area at the time, the only option was a nightshift job at a local hotel...and I started at $7.48/hr. I ended up making ALMOST $10/hr. And it was NOT "low-stress" (I was slapped, spit on, robbed, etc. during my employment there.) The big perk while I worked there was that I could stay at almost any Hilton property in the world for just $29 a night, which helped me immensely when I was traveling for my own company. I worked that second job for exactly 4 years and 11 months. Even after I was making millions a year. And I never actually made it to a FULL $10 an hour there. I think I topped out at $9.95/hr.
The only reason I STILL don't have a second job is that I had a serious illness and could barely even work at my own company. My wife also had cancer, and she started to re-evaluate her irrational fears.
I understand the ridiculousness of what I'm saying. That is my f0Rking point. My wife is emotional and irrational about money, and especially so about having a CONSISTENT paycheck. [This is the same woman that actually thought briefly about declaring bankruptcy when she was younger, despite the fact that she had a large number of shares in a major bank at the time. It never entered her mind to sell the shares, because her grandfather had been president of the bank some time during the '70s, so the shares were "sentimental" and part of her "family heritage." Never mind the fact that she really needed the money, and the bank stock was starting to tank anyway.]
My wife is a wonderful, compassionate woman...so I try to overlook her big weird money issues.
She didn't specifically ask me to get a job making just $10/hr...that's just the way it worked out. She asked me to get a "low-stress" job that I could work after having worked 60-70 hours a week on my own business. It had to be a job that I was qualified to do, and that offered (backup) health insurance. Since we lived in a somewhat rural area at the time, the only option was a nightshift job at a local hotel...and I started at $7.48/hr. I ended up making ALMOST $10/hr. And it was NOT "low-stress" (I was slapped, spit on, robbed, etc. during my employment there.) The big perk while I worked there was that I could stay at almost any Hilton property in the world for just $29 a night, which helped me immensely when I was traveling for my own company. I worked that second job for exactly 4 years and 11 months. Even after I was making millions a year. And I never actually made it to a FULL $10 an hour there. I think I topped out at $9.95/hr.
The only reason I STILL don't have a second job is that I had a serious illness and could barely even work at my own company. My wife also had cancer, and she started to re-evaluate her irrational fears.
Sporadic 40k in a month != 480k/year :)
This is an excellent post, thank you.
None of you guys are making money because you keep over-analyzing things. This thread is a brilliant example. Stop thinking you need to move to CA, have some brilliant, big idea, and a truckload of cash from YCombinator or investors.
There are thousands of people making thousands every month, and they range from teenagers to mom and pops who know nothing about design or programming. Everyone here already has a one-up on them. Instead of trying to create a new 'web 2.0' service, pick a content site and do it good! It doesn't matter if it's been done before. I created a site that offered MySpace layouts and graphics, despite there already being like 300 of them, and it was making close to $1k three months later. I sold it six months later for $12k on SitePoint. No investors, no big expenses.
I now leave you with a quote from Nas:
There are thousands of people making thousands every month, and they range from teenagers to mom and pops who know nothing about design or programming. Everyone here already has a one-up on them. Instead of trying to create a new 'web 2.0' service, pick a content site and do it good! It doesn't matter if it's been done before. I created a site that offered MySpace layouts and graphics, despite there already being like 300 of them, and it was making close to $1k three months later. I sold it six months later for $12k on SitePoint. No investors, no big expenses.
I now leave you with a quote from Nas:
No idea's original, there's nothin' new under the sun
It's never what you do, but how it's doneThe reason I haven't made the leap is pretty simple: money and location.
I currently work for a large corporation, making money, and slowly saving, but it's not very fast. I can't support myself for more than a few months before being forced to work again.
So, if I want to do a startup, I need an angel investor to fund me. That brings me to the second problem, I'm tied down into middle america. I love the city I'm in, but it doesn't have the kind of abundance of cash that the coasts have.
So, my plan moving forward is to contribute to open source and personal projects. I'll try to make a few bucks off them, but probably nothing serious. If I hit on an idea that I am really passionate about, I'll work on it more exclusively on the side or whatever day job I have, until it is able to provide decent income by itself.
As far as your ideas question, I have no shortage of ideas, but I have a shortage of ideas that would be good businesses. They are either too small, too hard to monetize, or they are simply that I don't have the passion for them to take them far enough to make them viable.
I currently work for a large corporation, making money, and slowly saving, but it's not very fast. I can't support myself for more than a few months before being forced to work again.
So, if I want to do a startup, I need an angel investor to fund me. That brings me to the second problem, I'm tied down into middle america. I love the city I'm in, but it doesn't have the kind of abundance of cash that the coasts have.
So, my plan moving forward is to contribute to open source and personal projects. I'll try to make a few bucks off them, but probably nothing serious. If I hit on an idea that I am really passionate about, I'll work on it more exclusively on the side or whatever day job I have, until it is able to provide decent income by itself.
As far as your ideas question, I have no shortage of ideas, but I have a shortage of ideas that would be good businesses. They are either too small, too hard to monetize, or they are simply that I don't have the passion for them to take them far enough to make them viable.
But isn't the core Web 2.0 mentality really that monetary costs have been drastically lowered and location doesn't matter? There are successful companies all over the world founded in spare time on barebones budgets. Middle America can't be that bad, can it?
You're right, the business costs are much cheaper than other business options. But of course, I still want to eat, and have a roof, and basically not suffer. That still costs money.
I'm certainly not just sitting back and doing nothing, instead I'm searching for that idea that really grabs me, and will keep me going in my free time. The idea for a part time business needs to be more engaging and interesting than a full time idea (at least for me), because I've already spent most of my mental stamina grinding through a day job by the time I can get started on the personal idea.
Either way, I have developed and launched http://www.irclogger.com in the last few weeks, just because I wanted this service and couldn't find it. (logging freenode's irc channels). But I have no plans to commercialize it, and wouldn't feel bad if it disappeared.
I'm certainly not just sitting back and doing nothing, instead I'm searching for that idea that really grabs me, and will keep me going in my free time. The idea for a part time business needs to be more engaging and interesting than a full time idea (at least for me), because I've already spent most of my mental stamina grinding through a day job by the time I can get started on the personal idea.
Either way, I have developed and launched http://www.irclogger.com in the last few weeks, just because I wanted this service and couldn't find it. (logging freenode's irc channels). But I have no plans to commercialize it, and wouldn't feel bad if it disappeared.
You're right about everything costing money, and the guy who said he didn't have enough reserve money saved up is spot on. I got ideas, but even I can't just quit my job and go. Seriously, YC should open a dorm room, where they get 6% of anything worked on while they provide room and board. :) An entrepreneur hostel.
[deleted]
Thats funny, I have lots of ideas that would make great businesses, and the passion to work on them, but I don't know any kick-ass web developers. You just don't meet them in my line of work.
it's almost a cliche around these parts, but still a useful metric: if you're going to do a startup, you need a steve jobs and a steve wozniak. you sound like a jobs, so you need a woz.
as it happens, this very community is teeming with them. i am myself a woz, but not the type you're looking for. web-dev does not come naturally to me. i prefer writing programs the old-fashioned way.
as it happens, this very community is teeming with them. i am myself a woz, but not the type you're looking for. web-dev does not come naturally to me. i prefer writing programs the old-fashioned way.
teeming you say? I just might put the word out.
Care to share?! I'd love just one good idea to sink my teeth into.
I'm a web developer and I've ran small online businesses in the past but they were service businesses. I don't have any great ideas for a cool web app, even though I can build one.
That's my reason at least.
I'm a web developer and I've ran small online businesses in the past but they were service businesses. I don't have any great ideas for a cool web app, even though I can build one.
That's my reason at least.
Most of them are simple in concept, but big in opportunity. For example, an iPhone review website. The opportunity there is huge. You have tons of people who need to get more/better info about apps before they buy than the app store currently offers. The business idea is very simple. Build a good review site, promote it, most likely rely on an advertising model. Based on how quickly the iPhone market is growing, I think the users are there to make it a profitable business. But it requires time an energy. On the one hand, a good website is essential, and easy of use and security (making sure reviews aren't skewed) is also very important. In fact, a strong web framework makes for less work in the future, so developer skills are critical. On the other hand, building a business, working with advertisers, long term strategy, promotion and customer service will also be important. Its too much work for one person, its just a lot of work in general. But I think it would be a great business.
Don't even get me started on my iPhone app ideas...
Don't even get me started on my iPhone app ideas...
No! Please get started! I'd love some good ideas! I wish I had more.
I don't want to sound to obvious but one of you guys is a woz looking for a jobs and the other is a jobs looking for a woz. Why don't you two get together and do something. For the one that isn't a coder, learn how to market your product online and become an expert at that. One coder, one marketer, one good idea. go for it.
Haha, Hacker News Collaboration! You got mad web development or iPhone programming skills bapbap?
Lack of good examples. Most people here probably read techcrunch, so day in and day out they get to read nothing but success stories. So they think success is the norm. So they have no problem developing something extremely simple, because they know that simplicity has paid off for some people.
An older guy who is in a corporate job, has no clue about techcrunch, and knows that whatever idea he comes up with has been done by Google etc. And if it hasn't they'll just steal his idea before he can make money.
So in the end he doesn't want to give up his corporate job, his income, and 2 years of his life, to develop an application has little probability of success.
I mean look at your average startup founder, its a younger guy who has no other commitments. And they can survive with a burn rate of $500 a month(live with parents + cost of dedicated server + other minor bills), while an older guy has a $2500 mortgage, $500 food bill, college tuition payments etc. And he thinks he needs $100,000 in servers, since that's what he is used with working at his corporate gig.
An older guy who is in a corporate job, has no clue about techcrunch, and knows that whatever idea he comes up with has been done by Google etc. And if it hasn't they'll just steal his idea before he can make money.
So in the end he doesn't want to give up his corporate job, his income, and 2 years of his life, to develop an application has little probability of success.
I mean look at your average startup founder, its a younger guy who has no other commitments. And they can survive with a burn rate of $500 a month(live with parents + cost of dedicated server + other minor bills), while an older guy has a $2500 mortgage, $500 food bill, college tuition payments etc. And he thinks he needs $100,000 in servers, since that's what he is used with working at his corporate gig.
Everyone has their own reasons, I'm sure. Here are some that come to mind:
- They don't have an idea for a startup
- They've never thought about entrepreneurship
- They don't know how to go about doing it
- They might be afraid to try
- They just don't feel like it; the commitment involved is not appealing to them
- They have other interests in life that are more important to them
- Their life situation prevents them from pursuing a startup idea
I don't quite agree that "web developers" don't have the qualities of "startup founders". Many probably do, but might not show them for whatever reason.
Chance plays a huge role is success, so the qualities of "successful" startup founders might not be that different from the "unsuccessful" ones.
Ambition, passion, persistence, motivation, good communication skills, a certain level of intelligence, ability to work with and motivate people are some qualities (certainly not all) that you'll probably find in founders.
I don't quite agree that "web developers" don't have the qualities of "startup founders". Many probably do, but might not show them for whatever reason.
Chance plays a huge role is success, so the qualities of "successful" startup founders might not be that different from the "unsuccessful" ones.
Ambition, passion, persistence, motivation, good communication skills, a certain level of intelligence, ability to work with and motivate people are some qualities (certainly not all) that you'll probably find in founders.
Because it's scary to try anything new. And finding a problem you're passionate about is hard.
Practical matters are much easier.
Practical matters are much easier.
Ambition and Perseverance.
The way that one of the RescueTime founders described his YC class was:
"I’ve been damn impressed with the other YC founders, but they aren’t that much better than many of the great coders I’ve worked with. They’re just bolder."
http://gigaom.com/2008/04/02/ycombinator/
The way that one of the RescueTime founders described his YC class was:
"I’ve been damn impressed with the other YC founders, but they aren’t that much better than many of the great coders I’ve worked with. They’re just bolder."
http://gigaom.com/2008/04/02/ycombinator/
"Ever heard of Paul Graham?" I asked. "Nope"
There's your answer.
Although it's easy to forget it after hanging around here for a while, doing a startup is not intuitively obvious. If you don't have a role model you're not going to get far.
Hand the guy a copy of Founders at Work and see if something clicks. If not, perhaps it was never meant to be.
The other factor, of course, is that technical skill is only a part of what you need as a startup founder. You need some Jobs to go with your Woz. If this guy doesn't have the marketing spark, and he realizes that ("No ideas, I guess"), he's acting quite rationally. Maybe he'll choose a different path if and when he meets the right business person.
There's your answer.
Although it's easy to forget it after hanging around here for a while, doing a startup is not intuitively obvious. If you don't have a role model you're not going to get far.
Hand the guy a copy of Founders at Work and see if something clicks. If not, perhaps it was never meant to be.
The other factor, of course, is that technical skill is only a part of what you need as a startup founder. You need some Jobs to go with your Woz. If this guy doesn't have the marketing spark, and he realizes that ("No ideas, I guess"), he's acting quite rationally. Maybe he'll choose a different path if and when he meets the right business person.
I am not making the leap because I don't have enough reserve money saved up.
How much is enough?
It is really hard to justify quitting and not bringing in any money regardless of how much you have in the bank and how much you spend per month.
Ie. is 24 x monthly expenses enough?
Even once you have enough saved up shutting down that influx of cash is hard.
It is really hard to justify quitting and not bringing in any money regardless of how much you have in the bank and how much you spend per month.
Ie. is 24 x monthly expenses enough?
Even once you have enough saved up shutting down that influx of cash is hard.
Enough is like 15k.
I'm developing the app now, and it's an app that people would (hypothetically) pay for. So cash should flow within 2-3 months(based off prev experience of selling things online) after I launch.
and if I need a cash infusion I can consult/contract for 1 - 2 weeks.
I'm developing the app now, and it's an app that people would (hypothetically) pay for. So cash should flow within 2-3 months(based off prev experience of selling things online) after I launch.
and if I need a cash infusion I can consult/contract for 1 - 2 weeks.
I'm in the same boat but I'm wondering whether I ever will. I gave myself a self imposed deadline so hopefully I have enough by then!
That's a good step. I'm setting a goal of how much money I need to feel secure and pursue the idea instead of a deadline because I can always develop it (part time) in the mean time.
Thanks, I already applied last year. Not going for the gold again this year. Would rather just do it myself.
YC means that you aren't doing it yourself?
No. YC is empowering, you are definitely doing it yourself with YC.
To be more specific, my idea hasn't changed, I have personally grown (before I felt YC would 'validate' my idea) and I don't believe that I would be accepted (in other words I don't want to be rejected again). I plan to 'just do it' myself and try to use the resources (my own money) and contacts( people here in the news.yc community) available to me to create something valuable that people will pay to use.
To be more specific, my idea hasn't changed, I have personally grown (before I felt YC would 'validate' my idea) and I don't believe that I would be accepted (in other words I don't want to be rejected again). I plan to 'just do it' myself and try to use the resources (my own money) and contacts( people here in the news.yc community) available to me to create something valuable that people will pay to use.
He might be thinking about the funding + network that YC provides.
Do you think it's really enough money to do 3 month full time commitment? (I have family, not enough saving)
No, it's definitely not. So where's the YC clone that does $80k per founder? I'd bet they will achieve a significantly higher success rate than YC does. More experienced, hungrier, stable founders who are highly motivated not to return to their cubes because they already know how much it sucks.
> More experienced, hungrier, stable founders who are highly motivated not to return to their cubes because they already know how much it sucks.
I conjecture that these kinds of people will tend to be more risk averse and that the group will have a better median result (and higher success rate).
But startup successes can be massive and a better strategy might be to chase the blockbusters with younger people.
I conjecture that these kinds of people will tend to be more risk averse and that the group will have a better median result (and higher success rate).
But startup successes can be massive and a better strategy might be to chase the blockbusters with younger people.
Hey New Haven, are you listening??
that amount of money is that ridicusly small in order to attract only students out of school. I can't think of anybody with solid experience using YC.
15k is enough for 3 students for 3 months. Somebody that has been working for a while, has probably a lot more money than that.
I have friends that saved money, quit, and now are doing their startup and living off their savings.
The only thing that YC might be usefull is some free publicity, and contacts, which are very useful especially if your product is of dubios value.
15k is enough for 3 students for 3 months. Somebody that has been working for a while, has probably a lot more money than that.
I have friends that saved money, quit, and now are doing their startup and living off their savings.
The only thing that YC might be usefull is some free publicity, and contacts, which are very useful especially if your product is of dubios value.
The founders out of school (or still in school) get the most publicity, but I'd guess that the median YC founder has been out of college for at least a couple, if not several years.
YC would probably like to think its value-add is far beyond the money it provides.
YC would probably like to think its value-add is far beyond the money it provides.
do it part-time or something. delicious started that way.
A lot of people don't make the leap because they're afraid of the risks associated with not having a stable income. A lot of developers working day jobs would at least like to match their current salary if not more to account for the risk.
This becomes a bigger problem along the years, since you're more likely to have a higher salary that would be a lot harder to match with just seed funding.
This becomes a bigger problem along the years, since you're more likely to have a higher salary that would be a lot harder to match with just seed funding.
Not everyone's built to be an entrepreneur... Nothing wrong with that, all of us that are, we need employees ;-)
Just cuz you are capable of doing it does not mean you should.
Just cuz you are capable of doing it does not mean you should.
I was that guy, except I had loads of ideas. I even created them, includidng the first content management system ever, which I designed and was in use by our web development clients in 1994, for a company I owned.
Sadly, I had no freaking idea how to market, run a business, get funding, get mass customers, or anything else of use. Eventually I figured enough of it out to launch a profitable startup, but it took 15 years. lol.
I think the most important thing to success you need is a successful mentor, who is doing something similar to what you want to achieve. The more the better. That was the major turning point for me.
Sadly, I had no freaking idea how to market, run a business, get funding, get mass customers, or anything else of use. Eventually I figured enough of it out to launch a profitable startup, but it took 15 years. lol.
I think the most important thing to success you need is a successful mentor, who is doing something similar to what you want to achieve. The more the better. That was the major turning point for me.
Passion and tolerance for risk (both emotional and financial). Ideas, too, I guess. Lots of people truly don't have any ideas and just don't think that way.
The ability to sling code by itself is not good criteria for building a company. Just like being a good cook doesn't make you well equipped to own a restaurant. If your friend is happy with his current situation, makes a decent living doing it, why would he change it?
lets remember you have to do quite well to match the pay, benefits, and lifestyle of joe corp coder
i won't toot my horn but i leave at 5pm SHARP, go to the gym everyday, great benefits and 401k, and i get about $150k, lots of vacation time too
you think about how hard you would have to work on a startup to get that.
i won't toot my horn but i leave at 5pm SHARP, go to the gym everyday, great benefits and 401k, and i get about $150k, lots of vacation time too
you think about how hard you would have to work on a startup to get that.
[deleted]
As someone who is trying to learn the skills on his resume, his 'no ideas' response frustrates me. That got me thinking: What other qualities do successful startup founders have that web developers don't?
Ideas? Ambition? Family? Why don't more people make the leap?