Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims(buzzfeednews.com)
buzzfeednews.com
Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/meghara/pakistan-forced-down-ahmadiyya-apps
481 comments
I keep thinking about infamous Telegram 'war' with russian cenrosship agency, RosKomNadzor. Telegram was blocked via russian ISPs, but was never removed from Russian sections of Google Play and Apple Appstore.
We now see that Apple and Google, time after time, easily submit to the will of local governments and remove questionable apps. Yet, Telegram was NOT removed. Russian media agencies claim that RosKomNadzor asked Google&Apple to suspend the app, but the source for all media publications was always the same press-release by RKN. So it keeps me thinking: what if the world was played and all this 'blocking' scandal was just a publicity stunt to raise Telegram's profile as a service that does not give up data to authorities?
Does anyone know if we can confirm via Google & Apple that they were asked to remove Telegram from play stores (and refused), or... they weren't really asked at all?
We now see that Apple and Google, time after time, easily submit to the will of local governments and remove questionable apps. Yet, Telegram was NOT removed. Russian media agencies claim that RosKomNadzor asked Google&Apple to suspend the app, but the source for all media publications was always the same press-release by RKN. So it keeps me thinking: what if the world was played and all this 'blocking' scandal was just a publicity stunt to raise Telegram's profile as a service that does not give up data to authorities?
Does anyone know if we can confirm via Google & Apple that they were asked to remove Telegram from play stores (and refused), or... they weren't really asked at all?
Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.
Of course I disagree with religious or any other intolerance, but, if you want to do business in Pakistan, you have to follow their rules.
It isn't a case of 'caving to pressure', but of 'complying with the law', since the apps are available in other countries, just not in Pakistan, where they are deemed blasphemous, according to their laws.
It isn't a case of 'caving to pressure', but of 'complying with the law', since the apps are available in other countries, just not in Pakistan, where they are deemed blasphemous, according to their laws.
I'm worried about the future of computing devices. With Apple and Google going with the walled garden approach, What's to stop any government from telling Apple and Google that an app is illegal?
To get an idea how rampant Islamism is in Pakistan when it comes to Ahmadis, read this: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-politics-idUSKCN...
Pakistan will literally sacrifice its economy for the sake of keeping Mullahs happy. It's sad and despicable.
Pakistan will literally sacrifice its economy for the sake of keeping Mullahs happy. It's sad and despicable.
We have been seeing deplatforming happen more and more these last few months. Seems like this is going to accelerate a decentralized Internet.
It's going to be exciting times with a lot of societal questions and problems to be answered as these new technologies take off and the old model of advertising and free services for personal data get replaced with a new model.
It's going to be exciting times with a lot of societal questions and problems to be answered as these new technologies take off and the old model of advertising and free services for personal data get replaced with a new model.
Pakistan's attitude towards Ahmadiyya is trash. It's ridiculous to me as a Pakistani that a country born to counter the persecution of minorities should so blatantly persecute them itself. I genuinely cannot process the hypocrisy.
While I agree that banning religious apps is particularly objectionable, it's interesting to compare the response to Pakistan banning US apps and India banning Chinese apps.
Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.
Going to make an unpopular opinion:
Well... Their content is being blocked on behalf of their own government while Pakistani social media content, especially Twitter content is being banned by Twitter India on behalf of Indian government. Recently my account was restricted when I RTed tweets of an Indian raising voice against farmer protest and once I got banned because I RTed a tweet about atrocities in IOK.
We also witnessed how parker app was banned and how many content is taken down on behalf of Many governments.
The point is, many counties are involved in such wicked activities one way or other regardless of who is pro democracy and who isn't.
Well... Their content is being blocked on behalf of their own government while Pakistani social media content, especially Twitter content is being banned by Twitter India on behalf of Indian government. Recently my account was restricted when I RTed tweets of an Indian raising voice against farmer protest and once I got banned because I RTed a tweet about atrocities in IOK.
We also witnessed how parker app was banned and how many content is taken down on behalf of Many governments.
The point is, many counties are involved in such wicked activities one way or other regardless of who is pro democracy and who isn't.
That's unfortunate considering Ahmadiyyas were at the forefront of the Pakistan movement.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_in_Pakistan
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_in_Pakistan
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis
I'm in pakistan and censorship here is... weird
----
like... on reddit, govt of pakistan banned some subreddits... but there is some bizarre pattern and it's not clear exactly what is banned, leading to some hilarious discoveries,
it's not just all subs tagged "nsfw", coz some of them are accessible, strangely enough (thank goodness for the RES nsfw filter)
/r/trees is banned... but /r/marijuana is not, nor is /r/cocaine for that matter ;p
quite a few porn subs are banned, which is understandable... but also banned is, and I shit you not, /r/handholding
it's literally a sub about anime characters holding hands, I mean....
just checked, /r/exmuslim is accessible, and so are various ahmadiyya related subs, (for now atleast) so huh...
I remember when /r/mapporn got banned once upon a time, but that was lifted
----
same for websites, you are browsing and suddenly you are met with a "surf safely" warning, and there is no rhyme or reason, there is nothing in the URL or the website content that resembles anything bannable, but yeah, until some fuck updates the filter, we are stuck
----
still, I make sure to NEVER EVER EVR say anything that remotely even touches any controversial subject even obliquely, it's a death sentence for your entire extended family, and accusations fly all too freely
https://twitter.com/search?q=blasphemy%20(from%3ASAMRIReport...
----
like... on reddit, govt of pakistan banned some subreddits... but there is some bizarre pattern and it's not clear exactly what is banned, leading to some hilarious discoveries,
it's not just all subs tagged "nsfw", coz some of them are accessible, strangely enough (thank goodness for the RES nsfw filter)
/r/trees is banned... but /r/marijuana is not, nor is /r/cocaine for that matter ;p
quite a few porn subs are banned, which is understandable... but also banned is, and I shit you not, /r/handholding
it's literally a sub about anime characters holding hands, I mean....
just checked, /r/exmuslim is accessible, and so are various ahmadiyya related subs, (for now atleast) so huh...
I remember when /r/mapporn got banned once upon a time, but that was lifted
----
same for websites, you are browsing and suddenly you are met with a "surf safely" warning, and there is no rhyme or reason, there is nothing in the URL or the website content that resembles anything bannable, but yeah, until some fuck updates the filter, we are stuck
----
still, I make sure to NEVER EVER EVR say anything that remotely even touches any controversial subject even obliquely, it's a death sentence for your entire extended family, and accusations fly all too freely
https://twitter.com/search?q=blasphemy%20(from%3ASAMRIReport...
How should multinational conglomerates like Apple and Google handle sovereign nation states that violate The Golden Rule?
I think the best case scenario is to deescalate the situation while also minimizing the impact of the violation; I don’t have a clue how best to achieve this lofty goal.
I think the best case scenario is to deescalate the situation while also minimizing the impact of the violation; I don’t have a clue how best to achieve this lofty goal.
It seems there is an obvious answer here. Have the US Government make it clear to the Pakistan Government that if they wish to start Trade Sanctions targetted against US companies then the USA will promptly place Trade Sanctions on Pakistan.
Actions have consequences.
Actions have consequences.
Since the underlying issue here is clearly with Pakistan's laws, I tried looking up how effective a democracy Pakistan is, so that its people would be able to push for freedom of speech laws (or overturning the blasphemy laws) if they so wanted.
Hard to find unbiased sources on this, but it seems like while Pakistan has technically had democratic elections for a while, they have been mired with issues until fairly recently. From wikipedia: "The democratic elections held in 2008 were the first to conclude a complete 5-year term in the nations' political history."
Hard to find unbiased sources on this, but it seems like while Pakistan has technically had democratic elections for a while, they have been mired with issues until fairly recently. From wikipedia: "The democratic elections held in 2008 were the first to conclude a complete 5-year term in the nations' political history."
By "caving" to governments, it seems like Apple and Google are trying to prevent new regulations from being implemented that would harm their businesses. Think about that for a second. Google is huge. Billions of dollars are at a stake for not only them, but their shareholders.
If Google is nice to the government, perhaps their good behavior will be remembered when it comes to voting on new legislation that would harm their business and shareholders.
If Google is nice to the government, perhaps their good behavior will be remembered when it comes to voting on new legislation that would harm their business and shareholders.
This only applies to Pakistan. It isn't Google's or Apple's place to fix Pakistan's problems. A company has to obey the laws of the country they are operating in.
Those who oppose this should consider the alternative. Suppose there's an app that is openly racist and discriminates against POCs, which is against the law in the US. Since it is violating the law, shouldn't it be taken down?
Those who oppose this should consider the alternative. Suppose there's an app that is openly racist and discriminates against POCs, which is against the law in the US. Since it is violating the law, shouldn't it be taken down?
I fell down Internet hole and read
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ahmadiyya_Truth/comments/bb7il1/ame...
They could have at least spelled Nancy Pelosi correctly.
They could have at least spelled Nancy Pelosi correctly.
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Information and Economic warfare should be seen as no different than physical warfare with weapons. (That is the crux of 4G and 5G warfare as is officially acknowledged in militaries today)
Google & Apple provide asymmetrical resources to 1 group (Pakistani Govt.) over the other (Ahmidiyas). This is no different than the US selling weapons only to the Saudis but not to Yemen.
The Saudi situation is clearly seen by everyone as morally deplorable. However, Google and Apple aren't subjected to any scrutiny.
I don't expect profit oriented companies to have any morals. However, Tech companies have spent an entire years of marketing expenses towards virtue signalling and claiming to be the ones who uphold morals. They have dug their own graves, now they must lie in it. They will deserve every twitter and internal storm created by a fresh scandal.
If McKinsey had blood on its hands for causing the Opioid epidemic, then so do Google and Apple for the persecution of the Ahmediyas. (Note: Ahmediyas are the only strictly peaceful sect of Islam. They are not militant insurrectionists or actively traitorous in a manner that would warrant violent reaction)
Google & Apple provide asymmetrical resources to 1 group (Pakistani Govt.) over the other (Ahmidiyas). This is no different than the US selling weapons only to the Saudis but not to Yemen.
The Saudi situation is clearly seen by everyone as morally deplorable. However, Google and Apple aren't subjected to any scrutiny.
I don't expect profit oriented companies to have any morals. However, Tech companies have spent an entire years of marketing expenses towards virtue signalling and claiming to be the ones who uphold morals. They have dug their own graves, now they must lie in it. They will deserve every twitter and internal storm created by a fresh scandal.
If McKinsey had blood on its hands for causing the Opioid epidemic, then so do Google and Apple for the persecution of the Ahmediyas. (Note: Ahmediyas are the only strictly peaceful sect of Islam. They are not militant insurrectionists or actively traitorous in a manner that would warrant violent reaction)
This is a good example of why walled gardens are so awful. Sometime they seem fine, but if all one can access is a walled garden, then all kinds of dystopian shit becomes trivial to implement.
Please never support walled gardens!
Please never support walled gardens!
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an interesting experiment is that with a politically charged post on India, many Indians will comment to criticize their own country and Pakistanis and some middle East folks would chime in too. but in case like this where Pak is involved, thry are all absent from discourse. not a single pakistani wants to criticize their country. Why ?
It's only normal, they did the same thing when politically pressured in the US.
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The app appears to be available in the US on the App Play store.
Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.
There is an argument to be made for Apple and Google to not create a legal nexus there - just provide the services but no payments and no offices there - and don’t follow Pakistani laws.
Censorship by monopolies is worse than censorship by government
On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim).
On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers.
These may seem fair to you, but that may be because these practices have not negatively affected you...yet.
But consider: Would it be fair if England declared Catholics “unChristian” and banned their use if the term? Or what if the USA declared hasidic jews “Unjewish” and banned their use of the term. Or what if Apple caved to pressure theoretical from Israel to ban Jehovah’s Witnesses from using the term “Jehovah”?
What next? Government declaring who is and is not “white”?
Oh wait......