The 20-year-old at heart of web's most anarchic and influential site(guardian.co.uk)
guardian.co.uk
The 20-year-old at heart of web's most anarchic and influential site
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jul/20/internet.google
12 comments
Personally I don't mind the inappropriate jokes/posts, sure some are racist, some are sexist, some are just plain disgusting, but that's the whole point, in the age of political correctness its actually refreshing. Step outside your comfort bubble.
And hey...if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to go there. Everyone likes to talk about freedoms we get in this country, yet these same people who wave the flag, have no problem with taking away other people's freedoms by forcing other people to behave in only the ways they approve of.
And yes you should glorify sites like that, they let us keep the whole idea that you can have complete freedom on the net.
And hey...if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to go there. Everyone likes to talk about freedoms we get in this country, yet these same people who wave the flag, have no problem with taking away other people's freedoms by forcing other people to behave in only the ways they approve of.
And yes you should glorify sites like that, they let us keep the whole idea that you can have complete freedom on the net.
I think it's okay to be disgusted by what spoken of somewhere, and aware of the harm it can potentially cause, yet guard fiercely the ability to say it.
I don't think freedom of speech should be axiomatic, though. Firstly, I take a realist stance -- it isn't treated that way by the world, there are some things you could say that would make your life much worse. Second, it seems that freedom of speech is a good heuristic due to how awful the alternative is: forcibly inflicting silence on people. But there are many degrees between speech and glorified, internationally accessible scum, and that's often what ends up on the internet -- I'm not sure it deserves much more glorification.
I don't think freedom of speech should be axiomatic, though. Firstly, I take a realist stance -- it isn't treated that way by the world, there are some things you could say that would make your life much worse. Second, it seems that freedom of speech is a good heuristic due to how awful the alternative is: forcibly inflicting silence on people. But there are many degrees between speech and glorified, internationally accessible scum, and that's often what ends up on the internet -- I'm not sure it deserves much more glorification.
You can be disgusted all you want, nobody is forcing you to visit that site though. Going to sites where you disagree completely with their philosophy is called trolling.
You want a moral 4chan style site, go to christchan(real site btw)...thats the thing with the internet, sites that people want will always stay alive. I mean look at 4chan stats: "Current users: 29,989", that's almost 30,000 users using the site at the same time, so I guess there are plenty of people who don't mind the openness of the site.
Freedom of speech IS axiomatic, in the bill of rights they didn't write..."freedom of speech, except when it disagrees with our beliefs", all the freedoms guaranteed by the bill of rights are not there to protect the opinions of the majority, they are there to protect the opinions of the minority.
Sure its not treated this way in the real world, and that's where the hypocrisy lies. All these people being proud of "the freedoms we enjoy in America", are usually the same people who then go around and start telling everyone what they can or can't do.
Internet really is the last standing bastion of actual freedoms. I can call you a little bitch when you act like one, and you won't run to the boss crying about getting your feelings hurt.
No there aren't any degrees, when you start applying degrees and stop giving a shit because it doesn't apply to you that's when you start helping others to strip away your own rights. The key is to set precedent, and when you have one its much easier to go for the bigger fish.
And here is a good quote for you: "In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me -- and by that time there was nobody left to speak up."
So you may disagree with whats being said, but you really need to take the approach of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." because if you don't, it won't be long before it affects you.
You want a moral 4chan style site, go to christchan(real site btw)...thats the thing with the internet, sites that people want will always stay alive. I mean look at 4chan stats: "Current users: 29,989", that's almost 30,000 users using the site at the same time, so I guess there are plenty of people who don't mind the openness of the site.
Freedom of speech IS axiomatic, in the bill of rights they didn't write..."freedom of speech, except when it disagrees with our beliefs", all the freedoms guaranteed by the bill of rights are not there to protect the opinions of the majority, they are there to protect the opinions of the minority.
Sure its not treated this way in the real world, and that's where the hypocrisy lies. All these people being proud of "the freedoms we enjoy in America", are usually the same people who then go around and start telling everyone what they can or can't do.
Internet really is the last standing bastion of actual freedoms. I can call you a little bitch when you act like one, and you won't run to the boss crying about getting your feelings hurt.
No there aren't any degrees, when you start applying degrees and stop giving a shit because it doesn't apply to you that's when you start helping others to strip away your own rights. The key is to set precedent, and when you have one its much easier to go for the bigger fish.
And here is a good quote for you: "In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me -- and by that time there was nobody left to speak up."
So you may disagree with whats being said, but you really need to take the approach of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." because if you don't, it won't be long before it affects you.
I disagree pretty strongly here. The data point I want to pick out are the existence of trolls: people who end up destroying enlightened discussion and replacing it with a bigot firefight.
There are many ways to reduce freedom of speech. One can be coerced, or one can be denied access to the time required to think of and say something useful. But there's another kind of denial -- when a conversation turns ugly, many types of speech simply disappear. /b/tards actively inhibit other types of conversation. So freedom of speech can't be axiomatic: it is internally inconsistent.
When the founding fathers penned the bill of rights, speech meant speech [edit: though, as pg has pointed out, they intended to include the printed word in their discussion.]. Not intrusive speech, and not published, internationally accessible works. They were not so clairvoyant as to see how powerful small publishing houses and studios could become.
One important type of freedom of speech I disagree with is that which impinges on someone else's freedom of speech. Everyone should have a place for their voice, but I am unwilling to protect any right to intrude.
There are many ways to reduce freedom of speech. One can be coerced, or one can be denied access to the time required to think of and say something useful. But there's another kind of denial -- when a conversation turns ugly, many types of speech simply disappear. /b/tards actively inhibit other types of conversation. So freedom of speech can't be axiomatic: it is internally inconsistent.
When the founding fathers penned the bill of rights, speech meant speech [edit: though, as pg has pointed out, they intended to include the printed word in their discussion.]. Not intrusive speech, and not published, internationally accessible works. They were not so clairvoyant as to see how powerful small publishing houses and studios could become.
One important type of freedom of speech I disagree with is that which impinges on someone else's freedom of speech. Everyone should have a place for their voice, but I am unwilling to protect any right to intrude.
Though I agree with your point about freedom of speech being internally inconsistent, the founding fathers definitely meant speech to include the printed word.
a) There is more to trolling than "bigot firefights". That's amateur hour. Real trolling is coming to say a PC forum and calling them retards for not owning a mac
b) And I would hardly call 4chan a big firefight either. Its not like its stormfront, its not like the site is only about racism. That's the whole point of the site, everything that is not illegal goes. And who are you to impose your morality on other people?
c)You can run your site however you want, you have the freedom.Like I said, if you don't like it, stop your bitching, close your browser, and move on with your life.
d)Like I said thats the whole point of freedom of speech, its not there to protect "not intrusive" speech, its there to protect the speech that makes religious zealots like you, bitch and moan about, like video games, just because the main characters uses the word fuck. "THINK OF THE CHILDREN! WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"
e) There you go again selectively choosing which rights people should have. Ok I'll play your little game, we aren't allowed to use freedom of speech about published content that people can see(even though if you read this wiki entry it specifically talks about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#The_Internet). But then using your distorted view of the bill of rights, we can then use the freedom of the press to justify keeping the speech on the internet free. f) Yet this is EXACTLY what you are doing, you want to deny other people their freedom of speech, just because you disagree with what they say. Calling someone a bitch does not intrude on their freedom of speech, they can call you a faggot right on back.
b) And I would hardly call 4chan a big firefight either. Its not like its stormfront, its not like the site is only about racism. That's the whole point of the site, everything that is not illegal goes. And who are you to impose your morality on other people?
c)You can run your site however you want, you have the freedom.Like I said, if you don't like it, stop your bitching, close your browser, and move on with your life.
d)Like I said thats the whole point of freedom of speech, its not there to protect "not intrusive" speech, its there to protect the speech that makes religious zealots like you, bitch and moan about, like video games, just because the main characters uses the word fuck. "THINK OF THE CHILDREN! WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"
e) There you go again selectively choosing which rights people should have. Ok I'll play your little game, we aren't allowed to use freedom of speech about published content that people can see(even though if you read this wiki entry it specifically talks about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#The_Internet). But then using your distorted view of the bill of rights, we can then use the freedom of the press to justify keeping the speech on the internet free. f) Yet this is EXACTLY what you are doing, you want to deny other people their freedom of speech, just because you disagree with what they say. Calling someone a bitch does not intrude on their freedom of speech, they can call you a faggot right on back.
Trolling is a lost art. It used to be quite funny. The original sense of the word meant baiting USENET newcomers along with incorrect nonsense. Sort of like how Australians try to trick tourists with lore about "drop bears" or a goofy uncle would go on about snipe hunting or cow tipping. Now it simply means name calling and general offensive behavior, which isn't nearly as clever or fun.
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One important type of freedom of speech I disagree with is that which impinges on someone else's freedom of speech.
[eye roll]
[eye roll]
> When the founding fathers penned the bill of rights, speech meant speech. Not intrusive speech, and not published, internationally accessible works.
First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Not sure how "intrusive speech" isn't a subset of "speech".
And if something is published here legally, what's the objection to it being "internationally accessible"? Modulo "munitions" (e.g. encryption).
First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Not sure how "intrusive speech" isn't a subset of "speech".
And if something is published here legally, what's the objection to it being "internationally accessible"? Modulo "munitions" (e.g. encryption).
Dude, I wouldn't defend Hitler for having the right to publish Mein Kamp. At the end of the day, you've got to use your discretion as to who you're defending. And in your defense, are you merely attacking the attacker? If so, then you can expect a counter attack, and you are being a hypocrite.
I would defend Hitler's right to publish Mein Kampf. Unfortunately the Internet is forever and this could be taken the wrong way so I'm posting under a sockpuppet.
I agree. Regardless of its content, Mein Kampf is historically significant. For that reason alone, it should be published and kept in libraries so that historians, students and history buffs have access to it.
At the time he wrote it, if I ran a publishing house, I wouldn't have printed it. However, if I were a politician, I wouldn't have blocked it from being published.
Words on a page don't hurt people, people do. By all means, punish the people for their actions, but silencing them does nobody any good. They'll find a way to be heard anyways, and then all you've done is give them notoriety.
(I'm not using a sock puppet to post this -- if someone takes this the wrong way it's their own damned fault)
At the time he wrote it, if I ran a publishing house, I wouldn't have printed it. However, if I were a politician, I wouldn't have blocked it from being published.
Words on a page don't hurt people, people do. By all means, punish the people for their actions, but silencing them does nobody any good. They'll find a way to be heard anyways, and then all you've done is give them notoriety.
(I'm not using a sock puppet to post this -- if someone takes this the wrong way it's their own damned fault)
"However, if I were a politician, I wouldn't have blocked it from being published." Tell that to the 50 Million people that died as a result.
You couldn't have been a politician to block it unless you were a part of the Nazi party, or an opposition party who I think were outlawed anyway.
Thoughts lead to words lead to actions. If you sanction the words then you sanction the action to a great degree - especially when the this flow on effect is rapid. If you feel the strong should survive, then give them free reign, but to stand there in smug glee saying, "I let them publish Mein Kamp, but didn't do so myself" to me resembles the same evil as doing nothing in front of the cattle trucks as they were being loaded.
The difficulty is that at the time, you couldn't really speak out.. and if you did, you might join the rank and file of those destined for death. In this environment, people's souls are silenced and one can become spineless.
History is reoccuring, Iran is building nukes to take out Israel and eventually other non-Muslim countries who don't cower to Islamic ideals. Hiding this latter reality is what assists Iranian nuclear development. This freedom-for-all line of thinking says "Everything's hunky dory, as long as Israel has anti-ballistics, then it's fair game. As long as I can throw abuse back at you then great." But it is not the case that freedom is always 'good' and restriction is not, because evil must be ruthlessly exposed and curtailed for there to be any evolution, and for higher states of hapiness to be experienced.
You couldn't have been a politician to block it unless you were a part of the Nazi party, or an opposition party who I think were outlawed anyway.
Thoughts lead to words lead to actions. If you sanction the words then you sanction the action to a great degree - especially when the this flow on effect is rapid. If you feel the strong should survive, then give them free reign, but to stand there in smug glee saying, "I let them publish Mein Kamp, but didn't do so myself" to me resembles the same evil as doing nothing in front of the cattle trucks as they were being loaded.
The difficulty is that at the time, you couldn't really speak out.. and if you did, you might join the rank and file of those destined for death. In this environment, people's souls are silenced and one can become spineless.
History is reoccuring, Iran is building nukes to take out Israel and eventually other non-Muslim countries who don't cower to Islamic ideals. Hiding this latter reality is what assists Iranian nuclear development. This freedom-for-all line of thinking says "Everything's hunky dory, as long as Israel has anti-ballistics, then it's fair game. As long as I can throw abuse back at you then great." But it is not the case that freedom is always 'good' and restriction is not, because evil must be ruthlessly exposed and curtailed for there to be any evolution, and for higher states of hapiness to be experienced.
I'm not here to debate history or politics.
My point is that Mein Kampf did not kill 50 million people; Hitler and his regime did. To argue causality between words and actions is to argue against free will of people, and therefore against personal responsibility.
My point is that Mein Kampf did not kill 50 million people; Hitler and his regime did. To argue causality between words and actions is to argue against free will of people, and therefore against personal responsibility.
"My point is that Mein Kampf did not kill 50 million people; Hitler and his regime did."
Yes it did. And not totally correct.
Mein Kampf represented the essence of the Nazis just as America's Bill of Rights relates to the USA. So too this board has its rules and the influence of its founder.
Banning a text that left unchecked will lead to mass murder and untold suffering throughout generations shows a huge expression of free will, and a pretty good use of it, if you may. Writing it shows next to none but rather a purging of one's hate and malice, with this internal line of thought then ready to be spread to the minds of others.
Yes it did. And not totally correct.
Mein Kampf represented the essence of the Nazis just as America's Bill of Rights relates to the USA. So too this board has its rules and the influence of its founder.
Banning a text that left unchecked will lead to mass murder and untold suffering throughout generations shows a huge expression of free will, and a pretty good use of it, if you may. Writing it shows next to none but rather a purging of one's hate and malice, with this internal line of thought then ready to be spread to the minds of others.
"Banning a text that left unchecked will lead to mass murder and untold suffering throughout generations..."
This is where you're not listening to me: The text did not cause mass murder and untold suffering. People did that; books are just inanimate objects.
This is where you're not listening to me: The text did not cause mass murder and untold suffering. People did that; books are just inanimate objects.
I hear you loud and clear. Look from a systemic viewpoint.
Texts in the hands of people can have a great power at influencing the behaviour of their readers. When the author and readers are strongly prone to certain thoughts and actions as a result of a particular book, then short of education, banning a text may be an effective thing to do to avert a particular reality from occurring that a text may propose.
The fact that books are inanimate objects makes censorship possible in this way, rather than putting someone in prison. Sometimes people lose their freewill and are drawn to books... and meglomaniacs.
Texts in the hands of people can have a great power at influencing the behaviour of their readers. When the author and readers are strongly prone to certain thoughts and actions as a result of a particular book, then short of education, banning a text may be an effective thing to do to avert a particular reality from occurring that a text may propose.
The fact that books are inanimate objects makes censorship possible in this way, rather than putting someone in prison. Sometimes people lose their freewill and are drawn to books... and meglomaniacs.
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In accordance with Godwin's Law, I hereby declare this subthread dead.
Truer words were never spoken.
I agree with the sites policy: ban child porn...and just about nothing else. Maybe I'm being closed-minded about child pornography, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. At any rate, vaksel, you're totally right. May I add that freedom is not about being able to say what others want you to say, but being able to say what they don't want you to say. (except for "fire!" in a crowded theater and the like")
I agree with the sites policy: ban child porn...and just about nothing else. Maybe I'm being closed-minded about child pornography, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. At any rate, vaksel, you're totally right. May I add that freedom is not about being able to say what others want you to say, but being able to say what they don't want you to say. (except for "fire!" in a crowded theater and the like")
One cannot simply escape the influence of 4chan by not going there. It is a cesspool, and the memes that breed there spread elsewhere. Do you think the players of Habbo wanted the influence of /b? And the violent culture there was shared by meankids.org when they started to frighten Kathy Sierra -- it was only a short jump from there to the death threats, and now they've inflicted harm. She will never be the same.
Freedom of speech guarantees that you will hear things you are offended by. There are some people who think they deserve to live in a world where they are never offended by anything, where everything is Serious Business. 4chan exists to demonstrate how futile and ludicrous people like that are, and appropriately enough those same people are the ones who are most offended by 4chan.
It's beautiful in its own little twisted way.
It's beautiful in its own little twisted way.
4chan more closely approximates the male mind than anything else.
I am sexist, racist, and callous, and if you claim not to be I don't believe you.
What popular site approximates the female mind, in your view?
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this is the internet...women are only present in jpg form :p
i'd have to ask my girlfriend, maybe ponystars.com?
Having a magnet for all that junk helps keep it off the rest of the internet.
In any case vitriol past a certain level is easy to laugh at. The stuff you need to be careful of is the insidious slant, where nothing is said that steps over the line but gradually the point of view worms it's way into the minds of the viewers.
In any case vitriol past a certain level is easy to laugh at. The stuff you need to be careful of is the insidious slant, where nothing is said that steps over the line but gradually the point of view worms it's way into the minds of the viewers.
The truth is, 4Chan is full of some of the best people in the world.
It has changed in the last few years and the change has been even more dramatic in the last 6 months or so. The long September started last year and now people are coming to 4Chan expecting nothing more than to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war. They have no interest in the history of 4Chan or in creating new content.
They come because it's trendy.
Just like Usenet, /., Digg, Reddit, and someday HN, the people who matter will leave and find a new home.
It has changed in the last few years and the change has been even more dramatic in the last 6 months or so. The long September started last year and now people are coming to 4Chan expecting nothing more than to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war. They have no interest in the history of 4Chan or in creating new content.
They come because it's trendy.
Just like Usenet, /., Digg, Reddit, and someday HN, the people who matter will leave and find a new home.
I agree.
This is the price of completely community-driven content. It'll be interesting to see if we ever tend back towards moderated places or if we continue to leapfrog from community to community in the frantic hope that we'll eventually find one that isn't overridden by the masses.
Hmmm. How could I make this into a startup?
This is the price of completely community-driven content. It'll be interesting to see if we ever tend back towards moderated places or if we continue to leapfrog from community to community in the frantic hope that we'll eventually find one that isn't overridden by the masses.
Hmmm. How could I make this into a startup?
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I fear what we may have just unleashed on our simple news site.
4Chan guys think it's cool to promote the Swastika: is it to offend, to shock, or do they see nothing wrong about the Nazis? Is it both?
Western society has gone awry in many ways, and 4Chan is a manifestation of this, and a mirror of it.
They've had a dig at Scientology but is there any discretion as to what's cut down? If none, then it's just vandalism.
It's all in such bad taste. Even its creator in his personal private life has distanced himself from it.
That all being said, a site like this has a degree of freedom and spirit that in a different environment, say North Korea or China, could spearhead a revolution - however for a forum to lead a revolution, even the participants need to be identified, if not in name then at least persona. Also, what would the end product of such a revolution result in? I predict self-destruction if 4Chan was the source.
Western society has gone awry in many ways, and 4Chan is a manifestation of this, and a mirror of it.
They've had a dig at Scientology but is there any discretion as to what's cut down? If none, then it's just vandalism.
It's all in such bad taste. Even its creator in his personal private life has distanced himself from it.
That all being said, a site like this has a degree of freedom and spirit that in a different environment, say North Korea or China, could spearhead a revolution - however for a forum to lead a revolution, even the participants need to be identified, if not in name then at least persona. Also, what would the end product of such a revolution result in? I predict self-destruction if 4Chan was the source.
The real story is not the influence of 4chan, but rather it's business model. I read kind of the same article in Time. It seems, the 4chan founder is on a PR tour (PG's Submarine PR- http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html) because of problems making money.
At the end of the story, he talks about the uphill battle to get ad revenue and in Time he mentioned wanting to sell to Rupert Murdoch. I think he's finding himself more like p0rn than digg, what's an obscene site to do?
At the end of the story, he talks about the uphill battle to get ad revenue and in Time he mentioned wanting to sell to Rupert Murdoch. I think he's finding himself more like p0rn than digg, what's an obscene site to do?
"His message was signed 'moot', a code name he uses on 4chan for reasons no one has yet fathomed."
I burst out laughing at that.
I burst out laughing at that.
I'm mildly disappointed that the article mentions nothing of the precursor to 4chan, or futaba, and its cousin 2ch, which holds much more influence, albeit not in Western internet culture.
4chan is the internet's septic tank.
Huh, I knew it was about 4chan
but I disagree that it is most anarchic or influential site, there are lots of chans and even wikichan.
it's all started in japan
UPDATE:
Oh, here is his photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/extraface/2445211563/
but I disagree that it is most anarchic or influential site, there are lots of chans and even wikichan.
it's all started in japan
UPDATE:
Oh, here is his photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/extraface/2445211563/
Rules #1 & #2.
"TITS OR GTFO" (said to anyone presenting themselves as female), "be an hero" (encouragement to commit suicide)... maybe these could be considered jokes in bad taste. But the racist pics and rants about "niggers"? The griefing in Habbo? The spamming webcammers with insults until they cry? The mass harrassment of people by phone, e-mail, and IM? Encouraging people to abuse their girlfriends / sisters / women in general?
Is any of that anything but feeding hate? Are communities that allow that (and make no mistake, 4chan allows anything that won't get it shut down) really ones we want to glorify? There's a price to pay with anarchy + anonymity. Yes, 4chan has produced, or popularized, things that are hilarious. But it's a bit like panning for gold in a river of shit.