A Thai national park is mailing trash back to tourists(washingtonpost.com)
washingtonpost.com
A Thai national park is mailing trash back to tourists
https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2020/09/18/tourist-trash-mail/
14 comments
>I'm pretty sure one of them had literally left their business card
Business cards aren't free to make, you make them with intent to give them out to people.
More plausible scenario was that someone who had received the card just threw it away.
Business cards aren't free to make, you make them with intent to give them out to people.
More plausible scenario was that someone who had received the card just threw it away.
You find that out pretty soon when you see the guy in the eyes. If the recipient of the belongings hadn't accepted them as his, the story would never have been told.
People will gladly retell and embellish stories that never once happened just to hear themselves talk
Right... I know the rangers so I can just ask them to verify. Thing is, I won't bother for 'NullPrefix describing themselves as "pure cynicism", so I guess it is what it is!
The important thing is that the trash was removed, after all.
The important thing is that the trash was removed, after all.
Right... Ad hominen is the purest form of agreeing with a point made by someone else without having to say that you agree :)
:) listen, your point is valid, I agree with that. However, I know and trust the people I'm talking about, whereas you don't know and have no reason to trust me in particular. Especially since you are quite forthcoming with your cynicism, there's no point in me claiming to have verification for the anecdote. I have no problem with that.
'jrootabega on the other hand straight up accuses me of lying to seem interesting and score internet points, which I think is pretty lousy.
Meanwhile, the trash is gone and everybody's happy! Now I'm going out to kill a couple of roosters with my uncle.
'jrootabega on the other hand straight up accuses me of lying to seem interesting and score internet points, which I think is pretty lousy.
Meanwhile, the trash is gone and everybody's happy! Now I'm going out to kill a couple of roosters with my uncle.
I think you're overreacting and the misunderstanding and distortion is growing with every post in this thread. Which was basically my first comment. I'm not looking to attack or argue with anyone, never was, and hope everybody has a good day
Awesome, I agree! Wish you the same. Everybody wins. :)
Well except for those roosters, they're in bird heaven now.
I got curious about your nick by the way, does it refer to rutabaga?
Well except for those roosters, they're in bird heaven now.
I got curious about your nick by the way, does it refer to rutabaga?
cheers, all around :D
Isn't it they retell and embellish them to the point they sound believable, like GPT-3?
It’s a better meme without that fact (business card person is/is-not the litterbug), because it plays on a fear that social networks will spread the story of the double injury wide and far before ultimately tracking down the litterbugs.
Depending on depth of social shaming for littering, there could be real consequences.
Depending on depth of social shaming for littering, there could be real consequences.
Yeah I often take business cards that I dont intend to keep....
If I dispose of a business card (in a civilized way), it is typically someone else's.
In a previous life I was a truck driver and mechanic on a farm. It was common for people to leave a mess in the driveway to our field. Often it was just garbage. One time someone left a bag of deer guts. Another time someone shot their dog and left the body. Needless to say I have low tolerance for litterbugs.
But once someone left their old mail. With their address. The sheriff was happy to give the offender a call and request that they clean up the mess, or else.
I fully support this kind of operation.
But once someone left their old mail. With their address. The sheriff was happy to give the offender a call and request that they clean up the mess, or else.
I fully support this kind of operation.
Also, "the government will take strict measures to blacklist visitors who damage national parks or are noisy and disruptive."
I fully support this policy, and I hope it gets implemented in more parks around the world.
I fully support this policy, and I hope it gets implemented in more parks around the world.
Do those "strict measures" include a full and fair trial, to allow the accused to defend themselves, to confront their accuser, and examine the available evidence that was gathered against the accused? Is there a jury of one's peers involved? A dispassionate judge of high integrity overseeing and perhaps rendering judgment?
If any of those things are missing, it seems like it would be easy and cheap to disenfranchise any person, regardless of actual guilt.
For what it's worth, I very much despise anyone who litters or damages parks, and hope they are caught and punished properly.
If any of those things are missing, it seems like it would be easy and cheap to disenfranchise any person, regardless of actual guilt.
For what it's worth, I very much despise anyone who litters or damages parks, and hope they are caught and punished properly.
No jury system in Thailand.
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories/overview-of-the-c...
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories/overview-of-the-c...
The jury is mostly an American thing, most other countries don't have that - the judge decides who is guilty.
Juries are an English thing, from the 12th Century. Countries whose legal systems developed from England's are likely to have inherited them.
We had juries here in Norway too until 2017. I'm moderately sure that Norway did not inherit the idea from England. Also Denmark had them until recently and Belgium and Austria still have them.
So it is not just an English thing.
So it is not just an English thing.
They did - https://www.britannica.com/topic/jury
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scandinavian-law#ref469034
Well.. they got it from Germany and France who got it from England.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scandinavian-law#ref469034
Well.. they got it from Germany and France who got it from England.
Interesting, thanks.
I stand corrected! either way they are not universal
Sounds like an opportunity for a denial of service attack via business card.
This is great.
I think I’ve heard the suggestion before that drive throughs should be forced by law to print the license plate details on all packaging so that it can be traced back to the driver who left it.
I think I’ve heard the suggestion before that drive throughs should be forced by law to print the license plate details on all packaging so that it can be traced back to the driver who left it.
My experience is that 1/3 of the time they fail to get my order right. It is clear that attention to detail is not the highest priority of hiring managers at restaurants. So what happens when my PII gets plastered on someone else's eventual litter? Contesting fines is not an option -- is too often a losing proposition.
I would assume it would be printed via ANPR and then I’d guess the onus is on you to check everything you’ve ordered is correctly present and labelled.
If that’s not enough and the retailer can’t get that right I would say that you’re taking a know risk going to that drive through.
Avoid them and I the market will make the process reliable.
If that’s not enough and the retailer can’t get that right I would say that you’re taking a know risk going to that drive through.
Avoid them and I the market will make the process reliable.
I would be depending on someone else to check that everything they have ordered is correctly labeled. That's the problem. If I cannot trust the people whom I pay to correctly pack my meal, I certainly cannot trust some rando in the drive-through queue to read a faded and smudged label, and care about what they just read, and spend time and emotional energy to rectify the problem (which isn't even their problem).
> I would assume it would be printed via ANPR and then I’d guess the onus is on you to check everything you’ve ordered is correctly present and labelled.
The onus should on the company CEO. One day in jail for each mistake they make.
The onus should on the company CEO. One day in jail for each mistake they make.
Why would the onus be on me to confirm that what I received was correct?
If they get my license plate wrong, that's basically a license to litter with impunity.
If they get my license plate wrong, that's basically a license to litter with impunity.
It happens sometimes and it stinks, but it has to be weighted in the overall context. Usually these "no standard of evidence" fines have no consequence besides a fee (since loss of freedom would be injustice) so just think of it as tax by sortition, which is fair
> ...have no consequence besides a fee (since loss of freedom would be injustice)...
How do you think they enforce the paying of the fee?
Reminds me of a story...this one guy I met had his car impounded because he forgot to pay a ticket he got on a bicycle (when the headlight requirement was new) so they suspended his license which caused him to drive around for years without a license. Pretty sure they had a bench warrant out for him too so they hauled him off to jail.
How do you think they enforce the paying of the fee?
Reminds me of a story...this one guy I met had his car impounded because he forgot to pay a ticket he got on a bicycle (when the headlight requirement was new) so they suspended his license which caused him to drive around for years without a license. Pretty sure they had a bench warrant out for him too so they hauled him off to jail.
I’ve seen plenty of garbage properly disposed of find it’s way out of the litter bin. I’ve seen it when homeless go through the bins. I’ve seen it when the bins are being changed out and a careless worker spills a bit. I’ve seen the wind take it out if the bin is a little too full. I’ve seen raccoons make a mess. I’ve seen drivers bump bins and spill their contents. I’ve also seen that happen at fast food restaurants. And, having worked fast food, I’ve seen employees of such do some pretty spiteful and pointless things.
I’m fine with extremely hefty fines for those who happen to get caught. I’m not fine with fines based on such flimsy evidence as a printed wrapper.
I’m fine with extremely hefty fines for those who happen to get caught. I’m not fine with fines based on such flimsy evidence as a printed wrapper.
I really don't understand how people can be so careless and disrespectful, even more so in a national park (and even more so in a foreign country). They flew across the world and visited a national park because they appreciate the nature, so why spoil it. What goes wrong in their head?
It’s a mystery to me, too. I find cigarette butts and beer cans on many of the trails I hike. I can understand the occasional cliff bar wrapper that may have accidentally fallen from a pack. But the rest is intentional and unjustifiable.
I think it's entitlement.
Yodsanklai you might not have all the facts. Nobody flew across the world.
The offender is a Thai person, that’s why the garbage was deliverable by postal mail. Doubt that the national park would pay for international mail. Their budgets are very tight. Also foreigners are not asked for their home address. The ranger just noted down the ID card number of the person who rented the tent.
Furthermore the entry to Thailand is very restricted and NO foreign tourists are yet allowed to enter. So no it wasn’t a foreign tourist.
Anyway majority of tourists in Thai national parks are Thai nationals. Considering that they charge foreigners 5-12x more for entry it isn’t a surprise.
Please don’t state details that weren’t part of original article. In this case it strengthens xenophobia.
Edit: typo and corrected addressing the commenter above
The offender is a Thai person, that’s why the garbage was deliverable by postal mail. Doubt that the national park would pay for international mail. Their budgets are very tight. Also foreigners are not asked for their home address. The ranger just noted down the ID card number of the person who rented the tent.
Furthermore the entry to Thailand is very restricted and NO foreign tourists are yet allowed to enter. So no it wasn’t a foreign tourist.
Anyway majority of tourists in Thai national parks are Thai nationals. Considering that they charge foreigners 5-12x more for entry it isn’t a surprise.
Please don’t state details that weren’t part of original article. In this case it strengthens xenophobia.
Edit: typo and corrected addressing the commenter above
Indeed, I didn't read the paywalled article, wrongly assuming that "tourist" meant foreign tourist, and generalizing personal experience with some foreign tourists in Thailand (unrelated with this article content).
That being said, tourists visiting national park such as Kao Yai are better behaved than in some beach locations. Also Kao Yai entry fee is about $15, which is affordable for foreigners (who are plenty there in regular times).
That being said, tourists visiting national park such as Kao Yai are better behaved than in some beach locations. Also Kao Yai entry fee is about $15, which is affordable for foreigners (who are plenty there in regular times).
Yodsanklai, again you assume things.
A Thai person pays entrance fee of 40 THB (1.29 USD). This is regardless if they are poor or rich, if they pay income tax or not.
A foreigner who for example lives in Thailand, and who pays income tax, still has to pay 400 THB (12.9 USD) entrance fee. That’s 10x more. Pure discrimination.
Let’s say an average foreigner family of 4 (2parents, 2children). That’s 2x 400 THB and 2x 200 THB incl vehicle 50 THB. 1250 THB.
A rich Thai family of 4, pays 2x40 THB, 2x 20 THB and 50 for vehicle. Total 170 THB.
You don’t decide what’s affordable for foreigners or not.
Not every foreigner is rich. Lots of expenses are higher for foreigners, many venues and restaurants charge higher prices to foreigners. Rental is often higher for foreigners,...
Not all foreign tourists are rich either. Many save the whole year to afford a two weeks trip to Thailand with their family.
National parks that charge them 10x more, restaurants that charge 2x more etc aren’t helping with welcoming foreigners.
If you do feel that paying 10x more is justified because it’s little money to you, why not sponsor not so well off foreigner families who wish to visit Thai national parks.
A Thai person pays entrance fee of 40 THB (1.29 USD). This is regardless if they are poor or rich, if they pay income tax or not.
A foreigner who for example lives in Thailand, and who pays income tax, still has to pay 400 THB (12.9 USD) entrance fee. That’s 10x more. Pure discrimination.
Let’s say an average foreigner family of 4 (2parents, 2children). That’s 2x 400 THB and 2x 200 THB incl vehicle 50 THB. 1250 THB.
A rich Thai family of 4, pays 2x40 THB, 2x 20 THB and 50 for vehicle. Total 170 THB.
You don’t decide what’s affordable for foreigners or not.
Not every foreigner is rich. Lots of expenses are higher for foreigners, many venues and restaurants charge higher prices to foreigners. Rental is often higher for foreigners,...
Not all foreign tourists are rich either. Many save the whole year to afford a two weeks trip to Thailand with their family.
National parks that charge them 10x more, restaurants that charge 2x more etc aren’t helping with welcoming foreigners.
If you do feel that paying 10x more is justified because it’s little money to you, why not sponsor not so well off foreigner families who wish to visit Thai national parks.
Really, this is Thailand business how they determine the fees of their national parks. These parks aren't free to maintain and they don't have an obligation to set up a price considered affordable to all the tourists in the world.
A lot of Thai people are poor, much poorer than the tourists who visit their country. I'm glad if they can have access to their national park.
I agree it's not the most fair situation for expats living in Thailand with Thai wages, but it's the compromise they have found, and I don't think there is a big scandal here.
Thailand is a very welcoming country for foreigners, and really I think they tolerate a lot of crap from tourists.
A lot of Thai people are poor, much poorer than the tourists who visit their country. I'm glad if they can have access to their national park.
I agree it's not the most fair situation for expats living in Thailand with Thai wages, but it's the compromise they have found, and I don't think there is a big scandal here.
Thailand is a very welcoming country for foreigners, and really I think they tolerate a lot of crap from tourists.
I will repeat. Most of visitors to Thai national parks, vast majority of them are Thai citizens.
The Thai government has increased prices for Thai citizens and reduced price for foreigners for exactly that reason at Doi Inthanon. And also because foreigners dont appreciate being ripped off.
There is huge online movement against dual pricing of foreigners in Thailand. You might not have heard about it.
Yes its precisely Thailands business. Thailands tourism industry revenue comes 2/3rds from foreign visitors. A discriminatory surcharge harms the tourism industry, and other countries in SEA proved that by making such practices illegal.
Thai people aren’t charged double or 10x more to enter national parks in other countries just becuase they are Asian :) its illegal there, its called discrimination.
Filipino and Malay people get Thai price at national parks in Thailns, because they look similar to Thais. So its then racism if caucasians get charged 10x more.
Would you think it fair if foreign operated business in Thailand charge their Thai customers 2-10x as much as foreign customers? It would be a big scandal if they did.
Overcharging foreigners is also a big scandal. Check social media. Its being reported on a daily basis and its bad for reputation of Thailand. Tourism Authority of Thailand thinks its not fair to charge foreigners more.
Not sure why you think discrimination is ok.
A fair equal price would bring more visitors :) im sure of that.
On a trip to a national park nearby my Thai friends were shocked that i would get charged 10x as much. Each of them gave extra money to pay for my ticket. Not because I couldnt afford it. But because its discrimination.
Since then we visit national parks less often. Not because we cant afford it. But because it feels bad to be discriminated against. It ruins the experience at such places. There are lots of other beautiful places to explore in Thailand, for free, with good Thai friends.
Edit: just to add, now that Thailand does not allow foreign tourists entering the country due to Covid, relying on tourism by expats living here has become much more important. The revenue generated by Thai tourists traveling to other parts of the country has brought occupancy in hotels just to 10%. Thats not counting those hotels/guesthouses/restaurants that already closed forever.
Edit2: embarrassing typos
The Thai government has increased prices for Thai citizens and reduced price for foreigners for exactly that reason at Doi Inthanon. And also because foreigners dont appreciate being ripped off.
There is huge online movement against dual pricing of foreigners in Thailand. You might not have heard about it.
Yes its precisely Thailands business. Thailands tourism industry revenue comes 2/3rds from foreign visitors. A discriminatory surcharge harms the tourism industry, and other countries in SEA proved that by making such practices illegal.
Thai people aren’t charged double or 10x more to enter national parks in other countries just becuase they are Asian :) its illegal there, its called discrimination.
Filipino and Malay people get Thai price at national parks in Thailns, because they look similar to Thais. So its then racism if caucasians get charged 10x more.
Would you think it fair if foreign operated business in Thailand charge their Thai customers 2-10x as much as foreign customers? It would be a big scandal if they did.
Overcharging foreigners is also a big scandal. Check social media. Its being reported on a daily basis and its bad for reputation of Thailand. Tourism Authority of Thailand thinks its not fair to charge foreigners more.
Not sure why you think discrimination is ok.
A fair equal price would bring more visitors :) im sure of that.
On a trip to a national park nearby my Thai friends were shocked that i would get charged 10x as much. Each of them gave extra money to pay for my ticket. Not because I couldnt afford it. But because its discrimination.
Since then we visit national parks less often. Not because we cant afford it. But because it feels bad to be discriminated against. It ruins the experience at such places. There are lots of other beautiful places to explore in Thailand, for free, with good Thai friends.
Edit: just to add, now that Thailand does not allow foreign tourists entering the country due to Covid, relying on tourism by expats living here has become much more important. The revenue generated by Thai tourists traveling to other parts of the country has brought occupancy in hotels just to 10%. Thats not counting those hotels/guesthouses/restaurants that already closed forever.
Edit2: embarrassing typos
I wouldn't call it a discriminatory surgarge. Thai citizens also fund the park through taxes.
Where I have lived in the US many public services charge more for people who aren't residents of the area.
Where I have lived in the US many public services charge more for people who aren't residents of the area.
> Not sure why you think discrimination is ok.
I'm not saying it's great and perfect. But I get where they're coming from and I'm not shocked.
I've spent quite some time in Thailand and I've seen the amount of poverty there. A lot of Thais work very hard for barely nothing, and they don't have the social nets we have in developed countries. With that in mind, I can understand Thai citizens have different rights than foreigners when accessing public goods. It's no big deal to pay $15 (cheap by western standard). And if it's cheaper for Thai people who can't afford it, I'm more than happy to help, considering I'm lucky being born in a rich country. If it was $15 for everybody, most Thai people couldn't visit their parks. And I don't know if they would be able to maintain their parks without that money.
By the way, there is more discrimination coming from developed countries than the opposite. I had Thai friends who wanted to visit Europe or the US. They had to apply for visas, which were expensive and sometimes denied with no reason. It was very stressful and humiliating for them.
I'm not saying it's great and perfect. But I get where they're coming from and I'm not shocked.
I've spent quite some time in Thailand and I've seen the amount of poverty there. A lot of Thais work very hard for barely nothing, and they don't have the social nets we have in developed countries. With that in mind, I can understand Thai citizens have different rights than foreigners when accessing public goods. It's no big deal to pay $15 (cheap by western standard). And if it's cheaper for Thai people who can't afford it, I'm more than happy to help, considering I'm lucky being born in a rich country. If it was $15 for everybody, most Thai people couldn't visit their parks. And I don't know if they would be able to maintain their parks without that money.
By the way, there is more discrimination coming from developed countries than the opposite. I had Thai friends who wanted to visit Europe or the US. They had to apply for visas, which were expensive and sometimes denied with no reason. It was very stressful and humiliating for them.
True, there is powerty in Thailand but the saying goes; everybody gets food to eat, people share. Not so easy in western countries. Thailand has no snow, most of time its pretty warm and rice grows all year round :)
Even now in deep financial crisis (no covid within Thailand at the moment) people get food donations. People who have more created cabinets where poorer people can pick up food for free. Its not pretty but it works. People donate to orphanages so children dint starve. Yes. No social net for them either.
Well we cant blame foreigners and their social nets, charging them 10x more because Thailand hasnt made sufficient social coverage from taxes is still discrimination.
Most Thai people in Thailand pay no income tax. VAT is 7%. Every foreigner working in TH must pay income tax - which is fine - they live there. But foreigners cant finance the social security system alone :)
Lets say some european country charges 20% VAT, and for average worker 35%+ income tax. Not to count higher municipal taxes for water, electricity, garbage collection. This is what pays for national parks. For social security, for good education, for better roads. For Thai tourists entering the same national parks at same price like local residents because anything else would be discrimination and is illegal. And youre welcome.
As for those Thai people who are very very poor (in Thailand). They usually dont go to national parks because the transportation and food there would be too expensive even with the cheaper entrance fees. They go to local forests or rivers instead. They pick mushrooms, hunt wildlife e.g fish and lizards to eat. Ive seen this first hand. They hitch a ride fromm their village to nearest “town” on the back of someones truck as the regular “passenger truck” is out of their financial reach. Still, overall they have a good life, they grow some crops or keep animals. They live usually with extended family closeby, spend time with family and friends and are happy.
The fact that a part of Thai population is poor does not justify discrimination of foreigners.
Most Thai people at big Thai national parks come with nice cars (which even i could not afford). If the poorer are lucky to get to a national park, then the whole family rides huddled on the back of a pickup truck, no safety belts or seats.
Lol visa discrimination. I do agree that many countries made it harder to obtain visa. And so has Thailand. Simply because some people all over the world abuse visa regulations and the good folks suffer because of the changes.
My friend from USA has also to apply for his tourist visa at Thai embassy. And he has to pay for it too. There are often hurdles for that.
Foreigners are denied visas or visa extensions. Sometimes for silly buerocratic reasons. And you wouldnt believe how often the reasons change. Very stressful and humiliating.
Every year, a foreign friend has to extend his business visa. He has legitimate business, with employees, pays all required salary taxes and company profit taxes etc. He loves Thailand and has a family. One year, after waiting for hours in queue at immigration he was told they cant accept his visa extension application.
Why? Because the revenue department issued official tax payment receipt is not accepted anymore without a separate additional stamp from revenue department to make it “official”.
Nobody told him before, so he lost half a day just to have to go back to revenue department to get a stamp on their officially issued tax receipt which makes it “more official”.
Then he has to go back to queue at immigration and after hours of waiting, gets told by officers that this year they require some additional documents. Nobody told him before. If they accept the application he gets 1 month extension only while they check his documents and he has to come back before expiration of that month to receive final approval or rejection of his application.
What if there is recession? A foreigner orperated company in Thailand must have 25% profit. Otherwise he cant extend his visa. A payment of profit tax is required. :) Businesses operated by Thai citizens arent required to make profit. (That foreigner still has to pay 10x more at national parks, lol)
So every year, he submits his visa extension and if they dont approve it, he has 7 days to leave the country. What about his Thai wife and children, car he bought, house they rent, all belongings? He cant afford to fly them overseas and get visas for them, plus a job for his wife, school for kids etc.
Life overseas is x times more expensive. Just becuase someone has higher salary overseas than a Thai person in Thailand doesnt mean that they have more money left at end of month.
At the same time in Thailand, an educated Thai person with some expertise in their field gets same salary as a foreigner with equal expertise. If not even more :) companies are reluctant to hire foreigners due to paperwork and revenue department scrutiny involved. If a small company hires more than 2 foreigners their company income tax doubles. This goes wirh the fact that for every foreigner hired they must hire 4 Thai employees.
Did i mention that foreigners have to check in every 90 days at immigration to report that they still live on same adress? (Even if they havent moved in 15 years, sounds a bit ridiculous, right?). If youre late for the 90 days report thats 2000 baht fine. If you forget and they caught you its jail and 4000 Baht.
Additionally if my friend leaves the country e.g. on a business trip to Vietnam or to visit parents in home country, upon return to the same house in Thailand in which he lived for years, he must be reported by landlord within 24h at immigration that he returned to that same house. Never mind the fact that he entered the country through immigration and had to fill in a form where he will be staying.
If the landlord doesnt want to go make the report (happens if they didnt disclose the rent as income), the person who is fined is the foreigner (2000THB) becuase he is the one who has to have that report paper. Furthermore without that landlords report, the foreigner cant make the 90 days report or visa extension etc at immigration. Imagine how humiliating that is.
If the foreigner decides to take vacation within the country, the guesthouse/hotel has to report him to immigration within 24h. Then after return home upcountry the landlord must do the same report agin within 24 hours.
By law a foreigner who leaves the registered place of living and stays overnight somewhere else has to go to nearest immigration or police station and report himself to be there now, within 48h. Also when he returns to same registered place of living he has to make same report that he is now back. Thats besides the fact that the landlord has to make the same report on different form as outlined above.
There is one worthwile category of foreigners to mention. People from certain countries have to make a request at local immigration or police station and apply for permit if they want to travel outside the district. Without that approval they arent alowed to leave, lol, lets say to visit the national park in other district of same province. If they get caught without that permit to travel within country, they face fines and deportation. And humiliation.
This last group of foreigners is often the lowest paid group of people, even less than Thais. So no not all foriegners can afford your $12.9 to enter national parks at discriminatory prices.
Now while it may look all bad, i have to say that most foreigners who live in Thailand are happy to be there and love the country. They just dont like the discrimination and being ripped off :) if you know what i mean.
Even now in deep financial crisis (no covid within Thailand at the moment) people get food donations. People who have more created cabinets where poorer people can pick up food for free. Its not pretty but it works. People donate to orphanages so children dint starve. Yes. No social net for them either.
Well we cant blame foreigners and their social nets, charging them 10x more because Thailand hasnt made sufficient social coverage from taxes is still discrimination.
Most Thai people in Thailand pay no income tax. VAT is 7%. Every foreigner working in TH must pay income tax - which is fine - they live there. But foreigners cant finance the social security system alone :)
Lets say some european country charges 20% VAT, and for average worker 35%+ income tax. Not to count higher municipal taxes for water, electricity, garbage collection. This is what pays for national parks. For social security, for good education, for better roads. For Thai tourists entering the same national parks at same price like local residents because anything else would be discrimination and is illegal. And youre welcome.
As for those Thai people who are very very poor (in Thailand). They usually dont go to national parks because the transportation and food there would be too expensive even with the cheaper entrance fees. They go to local forests or rivers instead. They pick mushrooms, hunt wildlife e.g fish and lizards to eat. Ive seen this first hand. They hitch a ride fromm their village to nearest “town” on the back of someones truck as the regular “passenger truck” is out of their financial reach. Still, overall they have a good life, they grow some crops or keep animals. They live usually with extended family closeby, spend time with family and friends and are happy.
The fact that a part of Thai population is poor does not justify discrimination of foreigners.
Most Thai people at big Thai national parks come with nice cars (which even i could not afford). If the poorer are lucky to get to a national park, then the whole family rides huddled on the back of a pickup truck, no safety belts or seats.
Lol visa discrimination. I do agree that many countries made it harder to obtain visa. And so has Thailand. Simply because some people all over the world abuse visa regulations and the good folks suffer because of the changes.
My friend from USA has also to apply for his tourist visa at Thai embassy. And he has to pay for it too. There are often hurdles for that.
Foreigners are denied visas or visa extensions. Sometimes for silly buerocratic reasons. And you wouldnt believe how often the reasons change. Very stressful and humiliating.
Every year, a foreign friend has to extend his business visa. He has legitimate business, with employees, pays all required salary taxes and company profit taxes etc. He loves Thailand and has a family. One year, after waiting for hours in queue at immigration he was told they cant accept his visa extension application.
Why? Because the revenue department issued official tax payment receipt is not accepted anymore without a separate additional stamp from revenue department to make it “official”.
Nobody told him before, so he lost half a day just to have to go back to revenue department to get a stamp on their officially issued tax receipt which makes it “more official”.
Then he has to go back to queue at immigration and after hours of waiting, gets told by officers that this year they require some additional documents. Nobody told him before. If they accept the application he gets 1 month extension only while they check his documents and he has to come back before expiration of that month to receive final approval or rejection of his application.
What if there is recession? A foreigner orperated company in Thailand must have 25% profit. Otherwise he cant extend his visa. A payment of profit tax is required. :) Businesses operated by Thai citizens arent required to make profit. (That foreigner still has to pay 10x more at national parks, lol)
So every year, he submits his visa extension and if they dont approve it, he has 7 days to leave the country. What about his Thai wife and children, car he bought, house they rent, all belongings? He cant afford to fly them overseas and get visas for them, plus a job for his wife, school for kids etc.
Life overseas is x times more expensive. Just becuase someone has higher salary overseas than a Thai person in Thailand doesnt mean that they have more money left at end of month.
At the same time in Thailand, an educated Thai person with some expertise in their field gets same salary as a foreigner with equal expertise. If not even more :) companies are reluctant to hire foreigners due to paperwork and revenue department scrutiny involved. If a small company hires more than 2 foreigners their company income tax doubles. This goes wirh the fact that for every foreigner hired they must hire 4 Thai employees.
Did i mention that foreigners have to check in every 90 days at immigration to report that they still live on same adress? (Even if they havent moved in 15 years, sounds a bit ridiculous, right?). If youre late for the 90 days report thats 2000 baht fine. If you forget and they caught you its jail and 4000 Baht.
Additionally if my friend leaves the country e.g. on a business trip to Vietnam or to visit parents in home country, upon return to the same house in Thailand in which he lived for years, he must be reported by landlord within 24h at immigration that he returned to that same house. Never mind the fact that he entered the country through immigration and had to fill in a form where he will be staying.
If the landlord doesnt want to go make the report (happens if they didnt disclose the rent as income), the person who is fined is the foreigner (2000THB) becuase he is the one who has to have that report paper. Furthermore without that landlords report, the foreigner cant make the 90 days report or visa extension etc at immigration. Imagine how humiliating that is.
If the foreigner decides to take vacation within the country, the guesthouse/hotel has to report him to immigration within 24h. Then after return home upcountry the landlord must do the same report agin within 24 hours.
By law a foreigner who leaves the registered place of living and stays overnight somewhere else has to go to nearest immigration or police station and report himself to be there now, within 48h. Also when he returns to same registered place of living he has to make same report that he is now back. Thats besides the fact that the landlord has to make the same report on different form as outlined above.
There is one worthwile category of foreigners to mention. People from certain countries have to make a request at local immigration or police station and apply for permit if they want to travel outside the district. Without that approval they arent alowed to leave, lol, lets say to visit the national park in other district of same province. If they get caught without that permit to travel within country, they face fines and deportation. And humiliation.
This last group of foreigners is often the lowest paid group of people, even less than Thais. So no not all foriegners can afford your $12.9 to enter national parks at discriminatory prices.
Now while it may look all bad, i have to say that most foreigners who live in Thailand are happy to be there and love the country. They just dont like the discrimination and being ripped off :) if you know what i mean.
MayeulC(1)
A lot of trash was left on purpose but some was left on accident... Not sure what the ratio is
> What goes wrong in their head?
Alcohol
Alcohol
One question left unanswered by this article: how do they get the addresses of the offenders?
It's not an unanswered question. It's a meme that the government figured they could use to make people imagine the trash they leave being mailed to them by the government, which then implies the government knows where they live and who they are, whenever they leave trash.
Why does there have to be a means for the government to mail the trash back to the people, if just imagining the trash being mailed to them causes them to stop leaving trash?
I doubt you are going to leave trash, and the reason why is because you are asking hard questions of an illusion.
Why does there have to be a means for the government to mail the trash back to the people, if just imagining the trash being mailed to them causes them to stop leaving trash?
I doubt you are going to leave trash, and the reason why is because you are asking hard questions of an illusion.
If you check in with your government issued ID then the government knows who you are and can find your registered address :)
The trash seems to have been left in a reserved tent, so presumably they had a mailing address on file with the reservation.
They wrote down the ID during checkin. Standard procedure.
I am tempted to buy a few solar trail cams and place them in my favorite spots. I’d even pay for it, but I can’t quite imagine the enforcement process - I’m not there anywhere often enough, and the sheriff deputies are but they probably wouldn’t be willing to access my cameras.
There are even several groups in the northwest whose members would likely join me in that. But how do we make this work?
There are even several groups in the northwest whose members would likely join me in that. But how do we make this work?
Litter is definitely a collective action, tragedy of the commons, sort of thing. Tangentially, one of the few positives of universal surveillance might be the reduction of littering through penalization.
Attaching any, material, negative incentive to littering is quite hard to do and I’m sure society will greatly benefit from any solid ideas as to how.
Attaching any, material, negative incentive to littering is quite hard to do and I’m sure society will greatly benefit from any solid ideas as to how.
The Singaporean way is to give massive fines and it worked.
Right, so a societal paradigm shift to the Singaporean model works. It really doesn’t seem like an issue that can be solved in isolation, the rest of society has to change too.
Me and the camping partners I've had have always had a policy; bring more trash from nature than you brought there.
So we sometimes take strolls before packing up just to find some trash. Sadly we almost always do. Sometimes people just dump entire bags of trash on a hill, like wtf did they expect to happen with that? So short sighted.
So we sometimes take strolls before packing up just to find some trash. Sadly we almost always do. Sometimes people just dump entire bags of trash on a hill, like wtf did they expect to happen with that? So short sighted.
> wtf did they expect to happen with that? So short sighted.
Not short sighted at at all. It had exactly the effect they desired: no trash to take home.
People quite often do things with intent and in full knowledge that their actions are harmful to others.
Not short sighted at at all. It had exactly the effect they desired: no trash to take home.
People quite often do things with intent and in full knowledge that their actions are harmful to others.
On many occasions I have found bagged dog crap just sitting on the side of the trail. It's amazing to me that there are people with the forsight to carry around plastic bags and the will to bend over, fill them with shit and tie them closed, but then no further will to take it away with them. I often wish they hadn't put the crap in a bag because then I would not be compelled to remove it from the trail.
I've been living in North Thailand for almost 3 years now and littering is still weird here for me. You'd go to the this pristine clean temple where everyone is barefeet and it's so cosy welcoming there then you go back to the parking lot that has a mountain of trash just rolling down hill.
The tourist blame is a bit silly too as foreigners are often charged 10 times the price for entering national parks (1$ for thai, 10$ for a foreigner) to the point where whole #2pricethailand movement started. For this entry fee a whole platoon of park maintainers could be hired but I've never seen more than 3 people present even in big parks and the trash cans are often missing or badly maintained, so it seems money is definitely being pocketed at some stage.
Generally tourists that go to these parks are quite tidy here and this headline seems like a click-bait.
The tourist blame is a bit silly too as foreigners are often charged 10 times the price for entering national parks (1$ for thai, 10$ for a foreigner) to the point where whole #2pricethailand movement started. For this entry fee a whole platoon of park maintainers could be hired but I've never seen more than 3 people present even in big parks and the trash cans are often missing or badly maintained, so it seems money is definitely being pocketed at some stage.
Generally tourists that go to these parks are quite tidy here and this headline seems like a click-bait.
The tourists were Thai. Yes the 10x overcharge is discriminatory.
Many tourists post online that the 10x price is not worth the visit. As you say there are sometimes issues with maintenance etc.
Most of tourists are Thai. We do find sometimes families throwing out trash on side of road.
Many tourists post online that the 10x price is not worth the visit. As you say there are sometimes issues with maintenance etc.
Most of tourists are Thai. We do find sometimes families throwing out trash on side of road.
I love this, but wonder if the cost of shipping is worth the impact... I hope so!
Also, if you ever visit Khao Yai I can't recommend "The Frog Resort" enough. What an awesome place to stay and a beautiful park.
Also, if you ever visit Khao Yai I can't recommend "The Frog Resort" enough. What an awesome place to stay and a beautiful park.
They might have included a bill for the violation :)
I'd rather have private "national" parks which deal with trashy tourists without spending more taxpayer money.
A nice way a private owner could address this problem would be to ask each visitors to buy admission ticket and issue a surety bond that could be claimed within 30 days to pay for any damages.
A nice way a private owner could address this problem would be to ask each visitors to buy admission ticket and issue a surety bond that could be claimed within 30 days to pay for any damages.
Why would this only work for a private owner?
Because National Parks are the biggest tax-problem in the US? Irony off...
Ah yes make national parks private because it's another private problem and not a national one...like schools, streets and health, right?
Alice's Restaurant :)
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After one Midsummer some years ago, one of the rangers found a bunch of garbage laying around after some careless people's celebration. Among the beer cans, bags, leftovers and other litter, he found someone's name and number; I'm pretty sure one of them had literally left their business card. He proceeded to gather all of the trash in a garbage bag, looked the guy up, drove into Stockholm (some 40 km), rang the fool's door and handed over the trash while saying something like "Hey, I think you forgot some of your belongings!"
Edit: just found out from the Archipelago Foundation's Instagram that today is the international clean the coasts day!
https://instagram.com/skargardsstiftelsen