Former VW Executive Is Arrested in Croatia in Emissions Case(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Former VW Executive Is Arrested in Croatia in Emissions Case
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/17/business/VW-dieselgate-arrest-croatia.html
7 comments
Now let's see how many from GS go to jail for the 1
MDB fraud. I may be wrong but I felt the VW fines/jail terms were politically motivated(i.e Trump doesn't like the Germans/EU at this time)
I still don't really get what they did wrong? What their cars did was essentially equivalent to studying the test instead of studying for the test.
> It is unclear why Mr. Eiser went to Croatia, where he was no longer protected by German law.
Carelessness? Germans migrate to the beautiful Croatian coast en masse during the holiday season, most of them passing through Slovenia. He may have thought he was safe in Croatia or simply didn't give it a second thought.
Carelessness? Germans migrate to the beautiful Croatian coast en masse during the holiday season, most of them passing through Slovenia. He may have thought he was safe in Croatia or simply didn't give it a second thought.
As I understood the cheating, it was just skipping exhaust warmup during tests since the car was to be turned off at the start after driving it warm. Did it acctually have any effect overall?
It is explained in the article, they developed software that knew when it was being tested and then changed its tuning to meet the testing requirements, tuning that would never have provided the performance and characteristics owners expected when driving the vehicle. Those in charge knew it was being done and approved it. Hence the broke the law and off to jail.
I lost my TDI because of this fraud as VW wasn't going to have an acceptable correction available and while I could have kept it outside of others who just enjoyed TDI my ability to sell it later would have resulted in vastly reduced value.
I lost my TDI because of this fraud as VW wasn't going to have an acceptable correction available and while I could have kept it outside of others who just enjoyed TDI my ability to sell it later would have resulted in vastly reduced value.
> skipping exhaust warmup during tests
Total aside, this is something that bothers me about my dishwasher. It has all the certifications for energy and water efficiency, but "for best results" the manual also recommends getting the water hot beforehand, by running the hot water in the sink. I wonder if the energy and water rating would still be as good if the dishwasher did that itself.
Total aside, this is something that bothers me about my dishwasher. It has all the certifications for energy and water efficiency, but "for best results" the manual also recommends getting the water hot beforehand, by running the hot water in the sink. I wonder if the energy and water rating would still be as good if the dishwasher did that itself.
I have a dishwasher. My hands. Quite effective. Running water, sponge and soap. Takes less than 5 minutes.
For hot water have a 180L solar water heater on the roof. Never paid for hot water since. It even works in freezing winters, -20C.
I also have an awesome dryer that's lasted over 10 years. It's a thin rope across my balcony accompanied by some wooden pegs. Does the job every time. When it rains, have a rack.
For hot water have a 180L solar water heater on the roof. Never paid for hot water since. It even works in freezing winters, -20C.
I also have an awesome dryer that's lasted over 10 years. It's a thin rope across my balcony accompanied by some wooden pegs. Does the job every time. When it rains, have a rack.
Hand washing is effective, but not efficient.
https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-much-water-do-dishwashers-us...
You are using more water than a dishwasher would.
https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-much-water-do-dishwashers-us...
You are using more water than a dishwasher would.
Also, the dishwasher is very effective at disinfecting since it uses steam.
What's so interesting about this 2 months old article today?
I was wondering what happened to the engineer because he is mentioned in the fast.ai book chapter on ethics in data science and stumbled upon this article.
> It's not just a moral burden, either. Sometimes technologists pay very directly for their actions. For instance, the first person who was jailed as a result of the Volkswagen scandal, where the car company was revealed to have cheated on its diesel emissions tests, was not the manager that oversaw the project, or an executive at the helm of the company. It was one of the engineers, James Liang, who just did what he was told.
https://github.com/fastai/fastbook/blob/master/03_ethics.ipy...
> It's not just a moral burden, either. Sometimes technologists pay very directly for their actions. For instance, the first person who was jailed as a result of the Volkswagen scandal, where the car company was revealed to have cheated on its diesel emissions tests, was not the manager that oversaw the project, or an executive at the helm of the company. It was one of the engineers, James Liang, who just did what he was told.
https://github.com/fastai/fastbook/blob/master/03_ethics.ipy...
> It was one of the engineers, James Liang, who just did what he was told.
Everyone is an independent agent and would like to avoid the most obvious Godwin here.
Everyone is an independent agent and would like to avoid the most obvious Godwin here.
Admittedly it is a bit easier to blame the independent agent in this case where he lives in a state that provides a strong safety net and healthcare. In the US, where you depend on your employer for healthcare, you could make the case that this form of free will to reject unethical projects does not exist because of the leverage your employer has over your life.
Is this leverage intentional or a side effect?
I wish these people were treated as mass murderers. The man years taken away from many peoples lives should be estimated, and his case should be taken as seriously as a serial killer who took away the same amout of lives as him and other people in the conspiracy.
I'm suffering from the effects of air pollution in my young age for the last 10 years (I'm 39 now), and I can't do anything to reverse my sickness.
I'm suffering from the effects of air pollution in my young age for the last 10 years (I'm 39 now), and I can't do anything to reverse my sickness.
This could be solved by a carbon tax. If the company lied about their emissions and got caught, you could retroactively charge them to make up for the difference, and then any profit they would have gained from skirting the regulations would be nullified. Other businesses would see this new environment and adapt or die.
American businesses don't avoid (domestic) child labor because it's illegal, they avoid it because the potential charges for getting caught make the whole endeavor unprofitable.
American businesses don't avoid (domestic) child labor because it's illegal, they avoid it because the potential charges for getting caught make the whole endeavor unprofitable.
> This could be solved by a carbon tax. If the company lied about their emissions and got caught, you could retroactively charge them to make up for the difference
In this case, they were emitting less carbon than advertised. Should we pay them a refund?
Details: outside of test scenarios, the engine control system ran the engine hotter and with less diesel emissions fluid which resulted in better fuel efficiency (less carbon) and more conversion of atmospheric nitrogen and oxygen to Nitrogen Oxides (bad for people).
In this case, they were emitting less carbon than advertised. Should we pay them a refund?
Details: outside of test scenarios, the engine control system ran the engine hotter and with less diesel emissions fluid which resulted in better fuel efficiency (less carbon) and more conversion of atmospheric nitrogen and oxygen to Nitrogen Oxides (bad for people).
Only criminal cases are usually prosecuted on the personal level.
Imagine if somebody proposed taxing terrorist organizations for killing people. When they get caught, the CEO would get his bonus and retire, the organization would either go bankrupt or bailed out by the government because of its importance, and a VP could register the next company, hiring all his ex-colleagues who were just executing company orders.
Imagine if somebody proposed taxing terrorist organizations for killing people. When they get caught, the CEO would get his bonus and retire, the organization would either go bankrupt or bailed out by the government because of its importance, and a VP could register the next company, hiring all his ex-colleagues who were just executing company orders.
Such a tax would affect the poor the most.
How?
I imagine the money from taxing power companies and such could go back into helping pay a portion of the bills of those who've had their rates increased.
I imagine the money from taxing power companies and such could go back into helping pay a portion of the bills of those who've had their rates increased.
But ze Arbeitplätze! (Jobs). German government is extremely entrenched with the automobile industry. Only slaps on the wrist, but it's probably profitable to risk breaking the law.
Maybe these executives should be prosecuted hard for their decisions.
Maybe these executives should be prosecuted hard for their decisions.
> This could be solved by a carbon tax. If the company lied about their emissions and got caught, you could retroactively charge them to make up for the difference, and then any profit they would have gained from skirting the regulations would be nullified.
Yeah, but what if the CEOs moved on? Or secured their profits?
I think carbon tax is the way to go, but on top of that we need criminal justice.
Yeah, but what if the CEOs moved on? Or secured their profits?
I think carbon tax is the way to go, but on top of that we need criminal justice.
> Or secured their profits?
What does this mean within the context of tax evasion?
> we need criminal justice
There is a reason Al Capone was booked on tax evasion. Showing an executive wilfully defrauded a test is difficult. Responsibility is too diffuse. Proving tax fraud is much easier—executives personally sign off on books.
What does this mean within the context of tax evasion?
> we need criminal justice
There is a reason Al Capone was booked on tax evasion. Showing an executive wilfully defrauded a test is difficult. Responsibility is too diffuse. Proving tax fraud is much easier—executives personally sign off on books.
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They missed a single emission standard, for a quite short time. It's a crime, but every punishment should be proportional to the negative result. In this case, fine seems sufficient, as money from it could be used to put more filters on e.g. coal plants.
I think we have much bigger issues with coal plants, iron extraction from the ore, making concrete, commercial trucks with worse emission equipment requirements, or even airplanes still using leaded gasoline, etc.
I think we have much bigger issues with coal plants, iron extraction from the ore, making concrete, commercial trucks with worse emission equipment requirements, or even airplanes still using leaded gasoline, etc.
You do realize they literally bought monkeys, put them in cages, piped the exhaust from their "clean" diesel cars right into the cages to desperately try to justify their lies. This was a reactionary response and a last ditch effort to try to spin the story after they were caught cheating on the emission tests. These people are straight up psychopaths and deserve punishment.
Edit: Now I'm being downvoted, we live a society where companies do so devious acts that people sound crazy when they point them out. Yes, this sounds too heinous to be true, but the sad fact is that it is true, watch the documentary for full story: https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1FI0VR
Edit: Now I'm being downvoted, we live a society where companies do so devious acts that people sound crazy when they point them out. Yes, this sounds too heinous to be true, but the sad fact is that it is true, watch the documentary for full story: https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1FI0VR
Well, the exhaust in reality is much more clean then presented in some media. It's not a perfect way of showing that, but I get their point. We need to keep our risk awareness calibarated to the issue at hand and with relation to other risks in our life.
You are applying "psychopath" label in a very liberal way. They cheated. They tried to hide it. It's a fact. It still doesn't make them psychopaths.
Please look for universal solutions.
You are applying "psychopath" label in a very liberal way. They cheated. They tried to hide it. It's a fact. It still doesn't make them psychopaths.
Please look for universal solutions.
,,We need to keep our risk awareness calibarated to the issue at hand''
I completely agree with you in this, I was writing the same thing. That's why I wrote that the total amount of time taken away from people must be estimated. If it turns out to be less than 100 lives, I agree with you as in that case the cost savings are justifying switching to newer cars, even if they are not hybrids. The problem here is that we're talking about a much higher number of man years taken away.
I completely agree with you in this, I was writing the same thing. That's why I wrote that the total amount of time taken away from people must be estimated. If it turns out to be less than 100 lives, I agree with you as in that case the cost savings are justifying switching to newer cars, even if they are not hybrids. The problem here is that we're talking about a much higher number of man years taken away.
> Well, the exhaust in reality is much more clean then presented in some media.
And yet they bought monkeys to prove their point, rather than breathing it in themselves.
You're right about the psychopath thing, though. They could simply be cold and cynical.
And yet they bought monkeys to prove their point, rather than breathing it in themselves.
You're right about the psychopath thing, though. They could simply be cold and cynical.
VW devised software to detect when an emission test was being performed and blatantly cheated the testing system so more people would buy their cars in the belief that they were environment friendly when they clearly were not. They got caught but instead of admitting fault they showed a complete disregard for animal life by piping diesel exhaust into monkeys for several hours. It's one of the most sickening business practices I've heard of, it's outright evil and sets a dangerous precedent. I will never understand how people can defend these kinds of actions and resort to trivialising their heinous acts. Have we become so calloused that we freely make up excuses for this kind of behaviour? What message is that sending to these companies? Sorry for being so judgemental but I find this awful. I really recommend watching the documentary to grasp the nature of how terrible the people calling the shots on this were.
I drew a poignant yet very off color political cartoon the moment the scandal dropped showing German Sociopath 1940s with a gas chamber, side by side with German Sociopath 2010s with VW TDI’s tailpipe connected to a hose going into the same building, the new version with a sign above saying earth.
I know the comparison is dark and compares a targeted ethnic genocide with indiscriminate killing, but the truth is that the damage diesel exhaust does to the human body is truly hard to overstate. To be pushing out 40x the legal limit for years while smugly marketing yourself as so much better than all other diesel vehicles is just a level of evil that immediately drew the comparison for me
I know the comparison is dark and compares a targeted ethnic genocide with indiscriminate killing, but the truth is that the damage diesel exhaust does to the human body is truly hard to overstate. To be pushing out 40x the legal limit for years while smugly marketing yourself as so much better than all other diesel vehicles is just a level of evil that immediately drew the comparison for me
I'm not sure if you're aware that mobile gas vans with their exhaust piped in were used extensively by the Nazis, or whether you'd only heard of Zyklon-B and concentration camp gas chambers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_van
"The gas vans were specifically designed to direct deadly exhaust fumes via metal pipes into the airtight cargo compartments, where the intended victims had been forcibly stuffed to capacity"
They were used to kill "Jews, Poles, Romani people, mentally ill people, and prisoners".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_van
"The gas vans were specifically designed to direct deadly exhaust fumes via metal pipes into the airtight cargo compartments, where the intended victims had been forcibly stuffed to capacity"
They were used to kill "Jews, Poles, Romani people, mentally ill people, and prisoners".
There were two points I was making, that the analogy was more on the nose than maybe the parent comment was aware, and that it was not just "ethnic genocide".
Do you have a link to the comic?
I think it would do well in today's climate, but you definitely need to get rid of the "German" and replace it with something less general, maybe "Nazi"? (It works because VW actually did work with Nazis in the 40s). Not every German worked for the specific team at VW that propagated this crisis, just like not every German even knew about the camps, so they don't deserve to be targeted by a broad brush like that.
I think it would do well in today's climate, but you definitely need to get rid of the "German" and replace it with something less general, maybe "Nazi"? (It works because VW actually did work with Nazis in the 40s). Not every German worked for the specific team at VW that propagated this crisis, just like not every German even knew about the camps, so they don't deserve to be targeted by a broad brush like that.
It's hard to decouple "Nazi" from "German." Nazi is the native language abbreviation for National Socialist German Workers Party. The nationality is baked into the name in a very deliberate way. Sad to report, the party and its beliefs were widely supported among German citizens at the time. Its grip was broken by catastrophic defeat followed by occupation.
(To their credit Germans faced up to their history in a way that is relatively rare among nations. The Holocaust Memorial in Berlin is just one of many examples.)
(To their credit Germans faced up to their history in a way that is relatively rare among nations. The Holocaust Memorial in Berlin is just one of many examples.)
They faced up to it because the Allies forced them through denazification.[0] Same thing we did in Iraq.[1]
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Ba%27athification
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Ba%27athification
The abbreviation would be nsdap, not nazi. Nazi includes everybody with that ideology, not just party members
German abbreviations work differently. You typically pick 2-3 significant syllables. "Nazi" comes from NAtionalsoZIalistische deutsche arbeiterpartei. Usual pattern is more like GEheime STAatsPOlizei = "Gestapo", which picks the first syllables of significant words.
As to the second point, in Germany at least Nazi refers to party members or close adherents like Neonazis. The catchall term is usually Faschisten (fascists). Americans use the term Nazi far more loosely, to the extent it has lost much of its descriptive value.
As to the second point, in Germany at least Nazi refers to party members or close adherents like Neonazis. The catchall term is usually Faschisten (fascists). Americans use the term Nazi far more loosely, to the extent it has lost much of its descriptive value.
Not all abbreviations work like that, see the Wikipedia entry for the party: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deuts...
Nazi is the abbreviation for Nationalsozialist.
It’s true that it’s used interchangeably but the official abbreviation is nsdap.
Nazi is the abbreviation for Nationalsozialist.
It’s true that it’s used interchangeably but the official abbreviation is nsdap.
Thanks, your point about Nazi being really short for Nationalsozialist seems correct.
To be honest I don't think I've ever heard anyone say NSDAP out loud in German. Perhaps I should get out more.
To be honest I don't think I've ever heard anyone say NSDAP out loud in German. Perhaps I should get out more.
>Among other things, equipment needed to reduce emissions of poisonous nitrogen oxides would have taken away space needed for a high-end sound system.
What component of this sound system took up so much space? Modern amps are so small.
What component of this sound system took up so much space? Modern amps are so small.