Show HN: Get notified when grocery pickup slots are available(curb.run)
curb.run
Show HN: Get notified when grocery pickup slots are available
https://curb.run
21 comments
Ideally, the grocery stores or Instacart will add this functionality so it's baked in to the pickup experience. I honestly wouldn't mind if they did that and effectively forced us to shut down the app. This is a feature they should already have! And there are a lot of examples of people making something that's effectively a feature for an existing product, and that existing product building it.
The selfish route would have been to keep this to ourselves. We talked through the ethical implications of this and decided it was better to make it easier for everyone rather than just us. If everyone uses it and is able to grocery shop less often because they feel less food stress, things are improved.
We also purposefully don't support delivery slot since we think those should be only for people who can't drive or don't have a car, and delivery is more risky health-wise for delivery workers (who may have to visit 10+ different stores in a day).
There are definitely equity issues though. We've considered adding a prompt for people to donate to World Central Kitchen while waiting for a slot, for example.
The selfish route would have been to keep this to ourselves. We talked through the ethical implications of this and decided it was better to make it easier for everyone rather than just us. If everyone uses it and is able to grocery shop less often because they feel less food stress, things are improved.
We also purposefully don't support delivery slot since we think those should be only for people who can't drive or don't have a car, and delivery is more risky health-wise for delivery workers (who may have to visit 10+ different stores in a day).
There are definitely equity issues though. We've considered adding a prompt for people to donate to World Central Kitchen while waiting for a slot, for example.
> If everyone uses it and is able to grocery shop less often because they feel less food stress, things are improved.
But that is exactly the issue that gorgoiler points out with the queue example. Everybody won't use your website. Even if you are wildly successful, a huge fraction of people won't use it. Therefore it is unfair. It is like a digital line-cutting tool. The unfairness is the ethical problem.
But that is exactly the issue that gorgoiler points out with the queue example. Everybody won't use your website. Even if you are wildly successful, a huge fraction of people won't use it. Therefore it is unfair. It is like a digital line-cutting tool. The unfairness is the ethical problem.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. It’s clearer you’ve thought about these issues. The nudge towards an associated charity seems like a really good idea.
" delivery is more risky health-wise for delivery workers (who may have to visit 10+ different stores in a day)."
I've been researching this as part of a brainstorming effort on things like non-profit alternatives to pickup and delivery to get more folks out of stores. I also regularly talk to employees of any place I go to about behind-the-scenes stuff to understand it. Based on how each operates, the pickup people seem to be most at risk because they're:
(a) told where to be by their handhelds at any moment even if people are crowding around that area or them (sadly common)
(b) store the stuff in tight to medium spaces full of other people with similar level of exposure
(c) forced to be at a desk, use phones, or computers that all kinds of people are touching
(d) talk to more people face to face on deliveries if they're a delivery person
Way, way more risky to work pickup if any of the above applies. It might also be more risky to order through pickup if they're not doing lots of sanitation. If you're wondering about that, all you have to do is ask anyone who has worked retail how minimum wage or barely-above people follow the rules if every day is a shit day. Hint: many will care less than the customers they're serving.
All that is just for risk assessment. Far as your app, I have mixed feelings on it like the parent. What I like is that you all put time into doing something to help people do something that might reduce the spread of the virus. So, thanks for doing that. :)
Heck, I had thought about doing the same thing with it just being selectively given to immuno-compromised, older, and/or nice folks. I also have been thinking someone could do some of these online shopping ideas for more well-off folks with differentiators with that money covering cost of both physical space and IT to support more orders from the other people. Kind of like freemium.
I've been researching this as part of a brainstorming effort on things like non-profit alternatives to pickup and delivery to get more folks out of stores. I also regularly talk to employees of any place I go to about behind-the-scenes stuff to understand it. Based on how each operates, the pickup people seem to be most at risk because they're:
(a) told where to be by their handhelds at any moment even if people are crowding around that area or them (sadly common)
(b) store the stuff in tight to medium spaces full of other people with similar level of exposure
(c) forced to be at a desk, use phones, or computers that all kinds of people are touching
(d) talk to more people face to face on deliveries if they're a delivery person
Way, way more risky to work pickup if any of the above applies. It might also be more risky to order through pickup if they're not doing lots of sanitation. If you're wondering about that, all you have to do is ask anyone who has worked retail how minimum wage or barely-above people follow the rules if every day is a shit day. Hint: many will care less than the customers they're serving.
All that is just for risk assessment. Far as your app, I have mixed feelings on it like the parent. What I like is that you all put time into doing something to help people do something that might reduce the spread of the virus. So, thanks for doing that. :)
Heck, I had thought about doing the same thing with it just being selectively given to immuno-compromised, older, and/or nice folks. I also have been thinking someone could do some of these online shopping ideas for more well-off folks with differentiators with that money covering cost of both physical space and IT to support more orders from the other people. Kind of like freemium.
We’ve used online shopping for a few years now, not exactly the same as they deliver, but close enough since there is only a certain amount of delivery slots.
There was never a problem with getting a slot until the recent pandemic. My wife sat there pressing F5 but it wouldn’t be enough, new slots were taken exactly when they opened.
Turns out someone had a piece of software set up new accounts, registered slots and then sell them. The store chain fixed it after a few weeks, but those are certainly interesting problems we face with online “Queuing”.
There was never a problem with getting a slot until the recent pandemic. My wife sat there pressing F5 but it wouldn’t be enough, new slots were taken exactly when they opened.
Turns out someone had a piece of software set up new accounts, registered slots and then sell them. The store chain fixed it after a few weeks, but those are certainly interesting problems we face with online “Queuing”.
With enough complaints, the grocers will ban the bots, just like Southwest banned the check-in bots years ago.
The rich are hiring serfs to do their shopping and not needing online delivery. Coders like me are writing our own bots to get deliveries. The tall are reaching items on high shelves that others can't. Life isn't fair and you should expect people to avail themselves of any tools to help themselves that are not wantonly destructive to the society at large.
Kind of glum. How about: the rich are donating to those in need, the coders are creating tools to help others, the tall are handing items to others that can’t reach. Life isn’t fair and we should help others when it is not self destructive.
Sure, but
"Life isn't fair and you should expect people to avail themselves of any tools to help themselves that are not wantonly destructive to the society at large."
You have to expect the worst, because if 99% of people are sound and generous and kind the other 1% will still screw things up and force others to compete on their level.
I didn't WANT to write a scraper to try to get an immigration appointment so I could stay in my country, but other people did (and then started selling the appointments), so I did too because otherwise I'd have to give a scalper money.
Sooner or later someone was going to write this. I suspect many others already have.
"Life isn't fair and you should expect people to avail themselves of any tools to help themselves that are not wantonly destructive to the society at large."
You have to expect the worst, because if 99% of people are sound and generous and kind the other 1% will still screw things up and force others to compete on their level.
I didn't WANT to write a scraper to try to get an immigration appointment so I could stay in my country, but other people did (and then started selling the appointments), so I did too because otherwise I'd have to give a scalper money.
Sooner or later someone was going to write this. I suspect many others already have.
Well that's a beautiful comment and might change my perspective on things. Thanks.
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The fundamental problem here is grocery stores and others needlessly limiting when they make pickups available. Lots of people are sitting at home with extreme schedule flexibility, and would be happy to choose a slot 10 days out or whatever. Instead there is the silliness (and third-party app workarounds like this) of only releasing slots much closer.
In other conversation I have seen the following explanation: those systems were designed for a much different supply demand balance than we see today, they just haven't had time to adjust things yet.
In other conversation I have seen the following explanation: those systems were designed for a much different supply demand balance than we see today, they just haven't had time to adjust things yet.
> those systems were designed for a much different supply demand balance than we see today, they just haven't had time to adjust things yet.
I feel like as much as this app is well intentioned, it will only make this problem worse.
The bottle neck isn't on the technology side. It's on the operations side.
Extending the order window ahead would work, but they'd have to do a "check in" before hand to actually pick your order, otherwise you wouldn't be able to know if things will be in stock 10 days ahead of time.
I feel like as much as this app is well intentioned, it will only make this problem worse.
The bottle neck isn't on the technology side. It's on the operations side.
Extending the order window ahead would work, but they'd have to do a "check in" before hand to actually pick your order, otherwise you wouldn't be able to know if things will be in stock 10 days ahead of time.
Yes - I bought a microphone that was in-stock for pick-up and a week later sent a "hey, what's up?" email and got a "order ready for pickup" email an hour later. There was no one in the store but they had 10x the number of pickup orders to process. Its a operational capacity problem, not a scheduling one.
Strongly disagree. The slots will immediately book out to the last available date. So if slots are available in 10 days that just means that everybody has to wait 10 days for their delivery. Increasing latency doesn't increase throughput.
> needlessly limiting
What looks simple from the outside is often much harder when you actually do it.
I assume the stores want to sell as much as possible, from greed if nothing else. If there are bottlenecks in making that happen, they're probably hard to overcome quickly.
...I guess I just got annoyed by the word "needlessly"...
What looks simple from the outside is often much harder when you actually do it.
I assume the stores want to sell as much as possible, from greed if nothing else. If there are bottlenecks in making that happen, they're probably hard to overcome quickly.
...I guess I just got annoyed by the word "needlessly"...
What I've found annoying with Amazon Fresh in particular is that they don't tell you there are no slots available until after you spend half an hour fighting with their search engine and populating the cart. And then, as you point out, they only show a few slots in the immediate future with large Xs across them.
Yeah, thanks, guys, that's really helpful. You've been screwing around with grocery delivery for what, 15+ years now, and still can't make it work?
Yeah, thanks, guys, that's really helpful. You've been screwing around with grocery delivery for what, 15+ years now, and still can't make it work?
> only releasing slots much close
Unfortunately, not really. Releasing later slots barely helps but it makes delays longer.
I recommend reading up a little queuing theory.
When there's more demand than supply, the queue will grow unboundedly, and so will the average waiting time.
What this means for online shopping is the same as what it means for web sites:
Latency gets continually longer for almost everyone at the same time, while throughput doesn't noticably change.
I saw an online grocery store open up slots for more months in advance recently. Now all the delivery slots are fully booked for the next 4 months. That's up to the limit of their calendar. It is still not possible to book a slot. If they open up further into the future, those slots will be fully booked too.
I said you can't book. Actually you can sometimes book a slot by waiting until they add new slots at the end, which rolls over at midnight. That's a little silly of them: The site becomes unresponsive for 20 minutes at midnight as everyone tries to catch the new slots. Most people will find that when the site finally responds, the slots are gone. If you were unlucky enough to be placing an order before midnight whose slot expires just after, you may be disappointed to find you can't complete checkout during the critical 20 minutes, and lose your slot.
The effect for nearly everyone is now they can book with 4 months of delay instead of 1 month.
Actually getting one at 1 month was a lottery. But that hasn't changed, it's still a lottery at 4 months.
Unfortunately, not really. Releasing later slots barely helps but it makes delays longer.
I recommend reading up a little queuing theory.
When there's more demand than supply, the queue will grow unboundedly, and so will the average waiting time.
What this means for online shopping is the same as what it means for web sites:
Latency gets continually longer for almost everyone at the same time, while throughput doesn't noticably change.
I saw an online grocery store open up slots for more months in advance recently. Now all the delivery slots are fully booked for the next 4 months. That's up to the limit of their calendar. It is still not possible to book a slot. If they open up further into the future, those slots will be fully booked too.
I said you can't book. Actually you can sometimes book a slot by waiting until they add new slots at the end, which rolls over at midnight. That's a little silly of them: The site becomes unresponsive for 20 minutes at midnight as everyone tries to catch the new slots. Most people will find that when the site finally responds, the slots are gone. If you were unlucky enough to be placing an order before midnight whose slot expires just after, you may be disappointed to find you can't complete checkout during the critical 20 minutes, and lose your slot.
The effect for nearly everyone is now they can book with 4 months of delay instead of 1 month.
Actually getting one at 1 month was a lottery. But that hasn't changed, it's still a lottery at 4 months.
HEB used to let you schedule out further in the future, but it looks like they've now reduced that to 7 days.
Release slots ahead of time and people will just pre-book the slots in advance right? Meaning if you want a slot now you wait a lot longer.
Why not just deal with this in the same way as we deal with other goods and services that are in short supply - increase the price until there is an equilibrium?
Ideally, one should be able to bid on delivery slots. If that is technically difficult, the delivery company should just increase the price.
They could then increase the pay of the staff involved in making deliveries to attract more workers, especially those that are now out of work. More deliveries made overall!
Or, if it is infeasible to increase the number of deliveries, they could donate the surplus profits locally.
Not increasing the prices seems like just pointless virtue-signalling that helps absolutely nobody.
Ideally, one should be able to bid on delivery slots. If that is technically difficult, the delivery company should just increase the price.
They could then increase the pay of the staff involved in making deliveries to attract more workers, especially those that are now out of work. More deliveries made overall!
Or, if it is infeasible to increase the number of deliveries, they could donate the surplus profits locally.
Not increasing the prices seems like just pointless virtue-signalling that helps absolutely nobody.
Because pricing people out of necessities like food is really bad idea.
I do not see much of a difference between something being affordable in theory, but unavailable in practice, and unaffordable but available.
The latter offers some advantages:
1. Increased prices on scarce goods discourage frivolous consumption.
2. Vulnerable people, if they can be identified, can be subsidized or have their fees waived.
3. Those that find they really need a delivery can still book it - something that is currently impossible.
4. Funds can be raised for good causes.
5. People do not have to waste time queuing/trying to get a slot.
If you like, you could operate both systems at the same time - allocate some slots on a first-come-first-served basis, and some slots on a market supply-and-demand basis.
And of course, delivery is not a necessity for many: a lot of those booking slots at the moment could just go to a shop and buy the groceries in person. A market system would discourage them booking delivery slots.
The latter offers some advantages:
1. Increased prices on scarce goods discourage frivolous consumption.
2. Vulnerable people, if they can be identified, can be subsidized or have their fees waived.
3. Those that find they really need a delivery can still book it - something that is currently impossible.
4. Funds can be raised for good causes.
5. People do not have to waste time queuing/trying to get a slot.
If you like, you could operate both systems at the same time - allocate some slots on a first-come-first-served basis, and some slots on a market supply-and-demand basis.
And of course, delivery is not a necessity for many: a lot of those booking slots at the moment could just go to a shop and buy the groceries in person. A market system would discourage them booking delivery slots.
Hi HN!
We realized that curbside pickups is a great compromise for everybody's health and safety right now.
We built Curb Run because we found it very difficult to get a curbside pickup slot at our local Wegmans. Willing to drive a bit further away to another location, I hacked together a little script that would check for pickup slots across multiple stores in a radius.
Fast forward, friends and family started hearing about this and asked if we could help them too. We ended up turning this into a web app for everybody to use -- and with many more stores and chains across the US.
We hope that this can help you as well!
We realized that curbside pickups is a great compromise for everybody's health and safety right now.
We built Curb Run because we found it very difficult to get a curbside pickup slot at our local Wegmans. Willing to drive a bit further away to another location, I hacked together a little script that would check for pickup slots across multiple stores in a radius.
Fast forward, friends and family started hearing about this and asked if we could help them too. We ended up turning this into a web app for everybody to use -- and with many more stores and chains across the US.
We hope that this can help you as well!
How do you assure that this tool isn't used by the lazy techno-elite to snatch up all the delivery slots? Rather than say the older and technically less literate, whom are probably more at risk and more in need of those delivery slots?
Yes, I totally get the concept and could use it myself. But I'm also reasonably young and healthy and would rather shop at the store and let the "at risk" population use these grocery store features to be safe.
Yes, I totally get the concept and could use it myself. But I'm also reasonably young and healthy and would rather shop at the store and let the "at risk" population use these grocery store features to be safe.
You're welcome to not use it.
The whole reason this exists is because "these grocery store features" don't exist.
Sites should be implementing their own waiting list, but that hasn't happened, so here we are.
The whole reason this exists is because "these grocery store features" don't exist.
Sites should be implementing their own waiting list, but that hasn't happened, so here we are.
Clarification: this app is only for curbside slots, not delivery.
a number of commenters are relying on a misperception that we all need to avoid everyone else as much as possible. that's incorrect, and leads to this rush to overload curbside pickup options and crowd out people who particularly need to avoid the risk of infection: those with co-morbidities.
what most of us need to do is avoid coughing and breathing into each others' noses/mouths, and that's what the (better) guidelines are meant to prevent. keeping distance doesn't need to be perfect, but best effort, as long as we generally avoid standing face-to-face and talking (especially for prolonged periods, closely, and/or loudly).
it's really fine to go to the grocery store if you don't live with someone sick or immuno-compromised and can mostly avoid other people's spit in your face.
what most of us need to do is avoid coughing and breathing into each others' noses/mouths, and that's what the (better) guidelines are meant to prevent. keeping distance doesn't need to be perfect, but best effort, as long as we generally avoid standing face-to-face and talking (especially for prolonged periods, closely, and/or loudly).
it's really fine to go to the grocery store if you don't live with someone sick or immuno-compromised and can mostly avoid other people's spit in your face.
Hey, this is cool! I tried to setup a curbside pickup for my elderly parents with a local store through instacart, but after getting to the end I discovered it was for next week. Couple thoughts:
1. Could I just provide a zipcode instead of sharing my browser location?
2. Could I check stores in aggregate? I'd rather discover which local business has the MOST openings and then register an account there, rather than getting to the end of the shopping experience and waiting.
Lastly, you have a typo "seend" in your third step.
1. Could I just provide a zipcode instead of sharing my browser location?
2. Could I check stores in aggregate? I'd rather discover which local business has the MOST openings and then register an account there, rather than getting to the end of the shopping experience and waiting.
Lastly, you have a typo "seend" in your third step.
Thanks a ton for the feedback! Hope this could be helpful for your parents.
1. We decided to use geolocation because it removes one more form field. It also makes it easier to expand to additional countries (https://github.com/MiniCodeMonkey/curbside/issues) we may reconsider in the future.
2. Happy to explore adding additional ways to tackle the problem. For now, we just have a simple map of stores to visualize coverage: https://curb.run/stores
Fixed the typo. Thanks!
1. We decided to use geolocation because it removes one more form field. It also makes it easier to expand to additional countries (https://github.com/MiniCodeMonkey/curbside/issues) we may reconsider in the future.
2. Happy to explore adding additional ways to tackle the problem. For now, we just have a simple map of stores to visualize coverage: https://curb.run/stores
Fixed the typo. Thanks!
You can let the user input their coordinates or use a map picker.
After 5 days in a row of not being able to get a delivery slot for another grocer, I used a similar tool. Even with the help of the tool polling the website every minute, the slot filled before I was able to complete the order the first few times. So at this point, it's clear that only coders are able to get online grocery delivery from the store I use.
If there was a way to reserve delivery slots for the elderly and at-risk, that would be great, but otherwise I see no problem with technically savvy people having an advantage here, if the alternative is requiring people to do manual polling and waste time. Those slots are going to go to somebody. Perhaps some limit to one delivery per week per account to encourage people to order more efficiently. Eventually, delivery capacity will ramp up to satisfy demand regardless.
If there was a way to reserve delivery slots for the elderly and at-risk, that would be great, but otherwise I see no problem with technically savvy people having an advantage here, if the alternative is requiring people to do manual polling and waste time. Those slots are going to go to somebody. Perhaps some limit to one delivery per week per account to encourage people to order more efficiently. Eventually, delivery capacity will ramp up to satisfy demand regardless.
Some grocery stores have implemented anti bot mechanisms as a result of earlier articles in the news about people using bots to claim delivery slots. In a nutshell, more than x number of requests over an unknown period and you get flagged (wherever you are using a bot or just an over eager human).
I appreciate this effort ... when we thought things were going to get bad in late February, we put about 3 months of food in our larder (like a root cellar but reachable from the basement of our house). We've been ordering about every 2 weeks just to keep it replenished just in case things get significantly worse. I've got three at risk people in my house so we can't really afford for any of (the five of) us to catch this.
We did the same, but only about a month of food, and I ordered TP on Amazon when I started seeing shortages in other countries. (I have a respiratory condition)
Has anyone started scalping pickup slots yet? “If you want toilet paper, you’ll have to buy our pickup slot for $50”.
Our grocer (HEB in Texas) requires you to have paid for your order to book the slot. My wife went to the store 2 days ago and was able to buy TP without any issues, but until recently, even a pickup slot wouldn't guarantee you any of the products you reserved.
Hopefully price-gouging laws would apply.
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This is really great! I've sent it to a couple of my friends who are immunocompromised and have been having trouble getting slots. Thank you for making this!
Awesome! That’s great to hear. Hope this can help them out.
Such a great idea!
Do you have any plans on open-sourcing this?
Do you have any plans on open-sourcing this?
Yes indeed! Feel free to check it out here https://github.com/MiniCodeMonkey/curbside
Asks browser for location permission without an option for entering a zip code or street address #FAIL
Is this US-specific or does it also work in other countries? I scanned the landing page, could not find an answer to this question.
This is so unethical. I'm reaching out to the IT departments of some of these stores to ask them to block your IP address.
Have you stopped to think about the ethical implications of this?
Could you put a warning to be mindful and only consider the service if you're high-risk or in a situation where curbside is the only safe option?
I love the fact that my high-risk parents are using curbside pickup, but I find myself better fitted to wear a mask and do the groceries myself during off-peak hours. The last thing I think the world wants is (presumably younger) people in tech taking up curbside slots before other people in the community.
Could you put a warning to be mindful and only consider the service if you're high-risk or in a situation where curbside is the only safe option?
I love the fact that my high-risk parents are using curbside pickup, but I find myself better fitted to wear a mask and do the groceries myself during off-peak hours. The last thing I think the world wants is (presumably younger) people in tech taking up curbside slots before other people in the community.
I don't get your question.
Curb-side pickup is better as having a ton of people inside small grocery stores considering all of them are not meant to handle large amounts of people attempting to keep a set distance from each-other.
If curb-side pickup becomes more popular they would increase available slots by allocating more resources. What is happening right now is you have one or two managing curb-side and a ton inside managing everyone else.
What should happen is grocery stores should be closed except for employees and your groceries should be delivered to you, or you pick them up curb side.
It would eliminate a whole realm of issues with people not following rules, coughing on produce, not washing hands, moeny exchange, long lines, etc.
And if you implemented a strict health check on employees it would be way easier for everyone.
Curb-side pickup is better as having a ton of people inside small grocery stores considering all of them are not meant to handle large amounts of people attempting to keep a set distance from each-other.
If curb-side pickup becomes more popular they would increase available slots by allocating more resources. What is happening right now is you have one or two managing curb-side and a ton inside managing everyone else.
What should happen is grocery stores should be closed except for employees and your groceries should be delivered to you, or you pick them up curb side.
It would eliminate a whole realm of issues with people not following rules, coughing on produce, not washing hands, moeny exchange, long lines, etc.
And if you implemented a strict health check on employees it would be way easier for everyone.
"If curb-side pickup becomes more popular they would increase available slots by allocating more resources. What is happening right now is you have one or two managing curb-side and a ton inside managing everyone else."
You're ignoring how it's a costly loss-leader for them. The pickers cost money. The storage space costs money with additions of new customers using the space designed for less until an expansion happens. One, little building might be in the six digits. The IT systems are probably older ones designed for lower volume. They have to integrate with all the other enterprise systems. There's a lot more going on in big companies scaling up than just add more people or slots.
You're ignoring how it's a costly loss-leader for them. The pickers cost money. The storage space costs money with additions of new customers using the space designed for less until an expansion happens. One, little building might be in the six digits. The IT systems are probably older ones designed for lower volume. They have to integrate with all the other enterprise systems. There's a lot more going on in big companies scaling up than just add more people or slots.
Hi, my wife is on an immunosuppressant and so we have been trying to avoid going to the store at all, except curbside, because it could be extremely bad if she were to get COVID-19. Save for a single emergency, no one in our household has left home in about a month.
This service makes it harder for us to get curbside slots, until our local store is able to respond to peaking demand, because people with normal immune systems will use these slots out of fear, when they have a much better chance of either not contracting COVID-19 in the first place, or of lesser symptoms if they get it, and in the meantime should be the ones going into the store, so that those with immuno-compromised households do not have to.
Your service makes no acknowledgement of this ethical dilemma.
I do not disagree that our local grocery store should do its best to expand its curbside service. They do seem to be trying, but this product makes it harder for households like ours in the meantime.
This service makes it harder for us to get curbside slots, until our local store is able to respond to peaking demand, because people with normal immune systems will use these slots out of fear, when they have a much better chance of either not contracting COVID-19 in the first place, or of lesser symptoms if they get it, and in the meantime should be the ones going into the store, so that those with immuno-compromised households do not have to.
Your service makes no acknowledgement of this ethical dilemma.
I do not disagree that our local grocery store should do its best to expand its curbside service. They do seem to be trying, but this product makes it harder for households like ours in the meantime.
> people with normal immune systems will use these slots out of fear
I sympathize with your situation, and agree that people who are more at risk should get priority, but suggesting that someone with a normal immune system should not use curbside pickup and just suck it up and go in the store is just... not correct. Everyone should be availing themselves of options that reduce their interactions with other people.
I imagine you and people like you are already frustrated as to how difficult it is to get pickup slots. A website like this can perhaps make it easier on you, as well.
I sympathize with your situation, and agree that people who are more at risk should get priority, but suggesting that someone with a normal immune system should not use curbside pickup and just suck it up and go in the store is just... not correct. Everyone should be availing themselves of options that reduce their interactions with other people.
I imagine you and people like you are already frustrated as to how difficult it is to get pickup slots. A website like this can perhaps make it easier on you, as well.
There are a limited number of slots available for these sort of services. It would be great if everyone could utilize them, but since that’s not possible it seems the slots should go to people who can use them most. I’m guessing HN readers skew significantly younger and healthier than the average victim of coronavirus, so it would be a shame if a service like this prevented people who really need remote pickup options from using them.
Everything after your first "but" contradicts what comes before it. Should people who are at more risk get priority? Because if they should, then yes, people with regular immune systems SHOULD in fact just suck it up and go inside until there are enough curbside slots available for everyone. Then there won't be a use for a site like this and those healthy people can book their curbside slots on the grocery stores' websites like normal.
This site and others like it just guarantee that vulnerable people MUST use these sites to even have a chance to get curbside. I guarantee there are those who are not savvy enough, and young tech-savvy people who know how to use these services will use curbside while older, more vulnerable, and less tech-savvy people must go in. I feel bad using a site like this because even though my wife is in a vulnerable group, I know others are worse off and don't have the know-how to use this tool. I want them to have a chance.
You can't say that "people who are more at risk should get priority" AND say that _everyone_ should be doing the same thing as them. If everyone is a priority, nobody is. Yes, some healthy people with good immune systems DO need to take some risks in lieu of those who are more likely to die if they take the same risks.
And spare me the platitude at the beginning of your comment. If you did sympathize, you wouldn't've posted something so tone-deaf.
This site and others like it just guarantee that vulnerable people MUST use these sites to even have a chance to get curbside. I guarantee there are those who are not savvy enough, and young tech-savvy people who know how to use these services will use curbside while older, more vulnerable, and less tech-savvy people must go in. I feel bad using a site like this because even though my wife is in a vulnerable group, I know others are worse off and don't have the know-how to use this tool. I want them to have a chance.
You can't say that "people who are more at risk should get priority" AND say that _everyone_ should be doing the same thing as them. If everyone is a priority, nobody is. Yes, some healthy people with good immune systems DO need to take some risks in lieu of those who are more likely to die if they take the same risks.
And spare me the platitude at the beginning of your comment. If you did sympathize, you wouldn't've posted something so tone-deaf.
It sounds like this crisis has been especially frustrating to you and my heart goes out to you.
One of the reasons we decided to release the app was so friends of ours who are immunocompromised could use it.
The ideal scenario would be for grocery stores to switch to curbside/delivery only. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that happening 6 months from now. None of us know if we are asymptomatic carriers, so we all need to stay out of the public as much as possible.
Our thinking if that if people start using this app, they're staying out of the stores, keeping themselves and the workers safer. Hopefully they can do several weeks worth of shopping at a time, freeing up slots for others.
In the UK, Sainsbury's is limiting curbside and delivery to high risk people. But they're only able to do so because they're getting a list of high-risk people from the government and validating against that list. That isn't really possible for us. https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/working-to-fe...
Do we support grocery stores in your area? Hopefully this app can help your family, too.
One of the reasons we decided to release the app was so friends of ours who are immunocompromised could use it.
The ideal scenario would be for grocery stores to switch to curbside/delivery only. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that happening 6 months from now. None of us know if we are asymptomatic carriers, so we all need to stay out of the public as much as possible.
Our thinking if that if people start using this app, they're staying out of the stores, keeping themselves and the workers safer. Hopefully they can do several weeks worth of shopping at a time, freeing up slots for others.
In the UK, Sainsbury's is limiting curbside and delivery to high risk people. But they're only able to do so because they're getting a list of high-risk people from the government and validating against that list. That isn't really possible for us. https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/working-to-fe...
Do we support grocery stores in your area? Hopefully this app can help your family, too.
> One of the reasons we decided to release the app was so friends of ours who are immunocompromised could use it.
Understandable, but it becomes a gold rush if people with normal immune systems use sites like yours to reserve slots. My only real suggestion is that your site call out the moral dilemma to users.
Basically our only choice now is to use a service like this (which I guess I will now do; yes you do cover our area) or book slots weeks in advance (this is what we have been doing with limited success).
Honestly we are very lucky; services like this make me more concerned for people in situations like my wife's, but who are not married to a programmer who is aware that you need a f*king web scraper to get groceries now.
Apologies if my frustration is visibly surfacing there; I know y'all are just trying to do your best to help with this situation and so I want to provide you with some honest feedback. I would also like to make clear that I'm not suggesting your service is a net negative. Thank you for your efforts.
Understandable, but it becomes a gold rush if people with normal immune systems use sites like yours to reserve slots. My only real suggestion is that your site call out the moral dilemma to users.
Basically our only choice now is to use a service like this (which I guess I will now do; yes you do cover our area) or book slots weeks in advance (this is what we have been doing with limited success).
Honestly we are very lucky; services like this make me more concerned for people in situations like my wife's, but who are not married to a programmer who is aware that you need a f*king web scraper to get groceries now.
Apologies if my frustration is visibly surfacing there; I know y'all are just trying to do your best to help with this situation and so I want to provide you with some honest feedback. I would also like to make clear that I'm not suggesting your service is a net negative. Thank you for your efforts.
Thanks, I appreciate your honesty. We're all struggling through this and need to vent it.
We hope that since this doesn't require any real tech knowledge, even people who aren't super tech savvy can use it. I've shared it with my neighborhood, which has lots of elderly people, and they seem to be using it okay (only a handful of tech support requests). We think this is a service the grocery stores should be offering themselves -- hopefully it'll push them in that direction.
It would probably be ideal for the US to do something like the UK and force grocery stores to prioritize high risk households... but there's a lot our government's response leaves to be desired.
But even those of us who aren't high risk could still be carriers. I could go in a store and accidentally get everyone in it sick. We ALL need to be avoiding public places. :-/
We hope that since this doesn't require any real tech knowledge, even people who aren't super tech savvy can use it. I've shared it with my neighborhood, which has lots of elderly people, and they seem to be using it okay (only a handful of tech support requests). We think this is a service the grocery stores should be offering themselves -- hopefully it'll push them in that direction.
It would probably be ideal for the US to do something like the UK and force grocery stores to prioritize high risk households... but there's a lot our government's response leaves to be desired.
But even those of us who aren't high risk could still be carriers. I could go in a store and accidentally get everyone in it sick. We ALL need to be avoiding public places. :-/
I don’t think you can claim we’re all in this together while providing an unofficial tool that prioritizes people you know and HN readers.
A good solution is to spread the word as far and wide as possible so that everyone can use your tool, and that at least seems to be what you are doing so good for you.
Have you had a shot at getting national press coverage for this, or even (long shot) having the vendors link to your service?
A good solution is to spread the word as far and wide as possible so that everyone can use your tool, and that at least seems to be what you are doing so good for you.
Have you had a shot at getting national press coverage for this, or even (long shot) having the vendors link to your service?
The tool doesn't prioritize HN readers. We released this almost two weeks ago and have primarily posted it on local neighborhood listservs and our own social media so far.
We haven't tried to get national press coverage because we don't have national store coverage, but once we add some of the bigger regional chains people are requesting (like HyVee, Meijer and Giant/Stop and Shop) we probably will.
The only grocery store we've been in touch with wasn't too thrilled about it and did not want to work together :)
We haven't tried to get national press coverage because we don't have national store coverage, but once we add some of the bigger regional chains people are requesting (like HyVee, Meijer and Giant/Stop and Shop) we probably will.
The only grocery store we've been in touch with wasn't too thrilled about it and did not want to work together :)
they would increase available slots by allocating more resources
This isn’t AWS where you click a button to scale. Real world scaling has lead times such as “acquiring a new building”, “buying more vehicles” (which need to be manufactured) and “hiring and training more people”.
This isn’t AWS where you click a button to scale. Real world scaling has lead times such as “acquiring a new building”, “buying more vehicles” (which need to be manufactured) and “hiring and training more people”.
I think that is the ideal situation too. Closing down grocery stores and allowing no-touch curbside pickup (or delivery) only. I don't quite know what the economics of this is like though, and if it is a viable option across the board.
Edit: typo
Edit: typo
Fair point! Realizing I haven't thought about curbside as much as only the larger grocery store chains seem to offer it (though delivery seems to be universal). Farmers market here is doing a pre-order drive-through arrangement this weekend after weeks of essentially being closed.
How does curbside pickup reduce the number of people in the stores?
Does it involve something other than swapping out customers picking their groceries off the shelves for employees doing the same?
Does it involve something other than swapping out customers picking their groceries off the shelves for employees doing the same?
It's not just about reducing the absolute number, it's about reducing the number of possible interactions.
Let's say there are 20 employees in the store fulfilling orders, and they work in two shifts during the day. So that's 40 people in the store that have the potential to interact with each other (though it's really more like two separate groups of 20). If they do the curbside dropoff in a safe manner (that is, without physically interacting with the customer), then it's mostly those 40 people risking transmitting the disease to each other, and that's it.
If you instead allow 20 random people into the supermarket at a time (in reality it's going to be more, which is even worse), and they spend an average of 45 minutes in the store, and their entry and exist times are randomized throughout the day, you have hundreds of people who could potentially interact with and infect each other.
Employees will just naturally be much faster and efficient at gathering groceries than customers will be. They know the layout of the store and where everything is better, and they may also know that certain things are not available, so they won't waste time looking for them. They can even multitask and take care of more than one person's order at a time. They won't be wandering around making impulse purchases, but will be sticking to a fixed list of items the customer ordered. Checkout and bagging will go much faster. This bit is optional, but they could even optimize things further by grouping the most common items in one place, and not stocking shelves like they usually do[0]. I imagine you can serve the same number of customers with much less than half as many people in the store.
There's also the matter of discipline when it comes to distancing. I imagine the supermarket employees are pushed hard to maintain social distancing with each other while working. When I went to the supermarket a week ago, probably a good 20% of the customers I encountered were failing at distancing, further increasing risk.
[0] Consider that placement of items in a supermarket designed for customers wandering around is intentionally not set up for efficiency! They want you to walk through the entire store when making typical shopping run, in the hope that you'll make a bunch of other impulse purchases.
Let's say there are 20 employees in the store fulfilling orders, and they work in two shifts during the day. So that's 40 people in the store that have the potential to interact with each other (though it's really more like two separate groups of 20). If they do the curbside dropoff in a safe manner (that is, without physically interacting with the customer), then it's mostly those 40 people risking transmitting the disease to each other, and that's it.
If you instead allow 20 random people into the supermarket at a time (in reality it's going to be more, which is even worse), and they spend an average of 45 minutes in the store, and their entry and exist times are randomized throughout the day, you have hundreds of people who could potentially interact with and infect each other.
Employees will just naturally be much faster and efficient at gathering groceries than customers will be. They know the layout of the store and where everything is better, and they may also know that certain things are not available, so they won't waste time looking for them. They can even multitask and take care of more than one person's order at a time. They won't be wandering around making impulse purchases, but will be sticking to a fixed list of items the customer ordered. Checkout and bagging will go much faster. This bit is optional, but they could even optimize things further by grouping the most common items in one place, and not stocking shelves like they usually do[0]. I imagine you can serve the same number of customers with much less than half as many people in the store.
There's also the matter of discipline when it comes to distancing. I imagine the supermarket employees are pushed hard to maintain social distancing with each other while working. When I went to the supermarket a week ago, probably a good 20% of the customers I encountered were failing at distancing, further increasing risk.
[0] Consider that placement of items in a supermarket designed for customers wandering around is intentionally not set up for efficiency! They want you to walk through the entire store when making typical shopping run, in the hope that you'll make a bunch of other impulse purchases.
Co-creator of curb.run here.
To add to what kelnos said, curbside pickup is better for public health because it limits the number of customers in the store, reducing vectors. It's also better for the workers themselves. Wegmans and a bunch of other grocery stores are using Instacart shoppers for curbside order fulfillment. Comparing that to delivery, an Instacart shopper may go into 10+ different stores on any given day while they're working. Not only is it inefficient, it significantly increases vectors and endangers their health more.
As thecodemonkey has said, we made an intentional decision to only support curbside and not delivery. We've also encouraged people to add items to their own cart for elderly or carless neighbors who can't place their own pickup order. (We also organized a neighborhood effort, before this app, to help people get groceries and prescriptions.)
It would be ideal everyone were able to do curbside/pickup only. But that's not realistic given the short timeframe of this crisis.
In the UK, the government seems to have shared a list with Sainsbury's of high-risk people. We had a friend in the UK ask us to add it, so I tried to sign up, and they said I couldn't because my email wasn't on the list from the government. I don't see such a thing being possible here in the US.
This app isn't perfect, but we released it because we think it helps in a small way. And if we all help in a small way, in whatever our own way is, we'll get through this.
To add to what kelnos said, curbside pickup is better for public health because it limits the number of customers in the store, reducing vectors. It's also better for the workers themselves. Wegmans and a bunch of other grocery stores are using Instacart shoppers for curbside order fulfillment. Comparing that to delivery, an Instacart shopper may go into 10+ different stores on any given day while they're working. Not only is it inefficient, it significantly increases vectors and endangers their health more.
As thecodemonkey has said, we made an intentional decision to only support curbside and not delivery. We've also encouraged people to add items to their own cart for elderly or carless neighbors who can't place their own pickup order. (We also organized a neighborhood effort, before this app, to help people get groceries and prescriptions.)
It would be ideal everyone were able to do curbside/pickup only. But that's not realistic given the short timeframe of this crisis.
In the UK, the government seems to have shared a list with Sainsbury's of high-risk people. We had a friend in the UK ask us to add it, so I tried to sign up, and they said I couldn't because my email wasn't on the list from the government. I don't see such a thing being possible here in the US.
This app isn't perfect, but we released it because we think it helps in a small way. And if we all help in a small way, in whatever our own way is, we'll get through this.
Economies of scale. Employees doing the picking is much more organized and requires far less people than customers doing it themselves.
> What should happen is grocery stores should be closed except for employees and your groceries should be delivered to you, or you pick them up curb side.
Of course that would be ideal, but scaling up a delivery service from scratch is a bit harder than keeping a store running and offering both services which distributes the load a bit.
Of course that would be ideal, but scaling up a delivery service from scratch is a bit harder than keeping a store running and offering both services which distributes the load a bit.
this is not a delivery service - it's curbside pickup.
It still takes extra staff to make this happen. Normal grocery staff isn't just wandering around the store aimlessly; they're restocking and doing other administrative tasks. Most of those tasks don't just go away when you move to a curbside pickup model. You still need to hire and train more people to fulfill orders.
"they're restocking and doing other administrative tasks. Most of those tasks don't just go away when you move to a curbside pickup model"
This may be true in practice, right now, but do things really have to go to the shelves and then the curb?
This may be true in practice, right now, but do things really have to go to the shelves and then the curb?
They have to go somewhere. Perhaps if a store went to a curbside-only model they'd organize things in the store based on popularity so the people fulfilling orders could be more efficient, but it still takes people working throughout the day to make that happen.
Many of the stores offering curbside, like Wegmans, are using Instacart shoppers, so it's not taking away store employees per se.
Sorry. Looks like I misunderstood that, I thought it means that they put it in front of your house.
Hi there! Absolutely. This is why we are explicitly focusing on curbside pickup rather than delivery. It is not about snatching slots as soon as they become available, but more about being able to check across dozens of stores at the same time. We've found that there are actually plenty of pickup timeslots available -- if you just look a bit outside super-urban areas. Call it human-loadbalancing-as-a-service if you will.
It may be more optimal in some sense, but it's reminiscent of how Google Maps sends people through residential neighborhoods during rush hour. Which you may have heard people get unhappy about.
If it works as intended, assuming the demand continues to exceed the overall capacity, it's just going to spread out the overload more.
If you have 200% demand then working on getting from 90% to 99% utilization is missing the forest for the trees.
If it works as intended, assuming the demand continues to exceed the overall capacity, it's just going to spread out the overload more.
If you have 200% demand then working on getting from 90% to 99% utilization is missing the forest for the trees.
Thanks for clarifying.
> "It is not about snatching slots as soon as they become available"
Perhaps consider rewording your post title? It's currently:
"Show HN: Get notified when grocery pickup slots are available"
The idea of encouraging people to look for other stores seems to be something grocery stores are doing, I just noticed the Kroger-based chain's website I use (QFC) shows me a list of other locations with pickup availability.
> "It is not about snatching slots as soon as they become available"
Perhaps consider rewording your post title? It's currently:
"Show HN: Get notified when grocery pickup slots are available"
The idea of encouraging people to look for other stores seems to be something grocery stores are doing, I just noticed the Kroger-based chain's website I use (QFC) shows me a list of other locations with pickup availability.
It’s a game of cat and mouse with tools like this, just like with restaurant reservations, shoe drops, ticket scalping, and anything else that’s scarce.
The difference is that the supermarkets aren't intentionally scarce and they can choose to scale up (profitable for them) or choose to offer the service only to registered customers who affirm their qualifications.
Do you really think it's the same?
There's a difference between the some rare sneaker drop and buying groceries as a high-risk person in a global pandemic.
There's a difference between the some rare sneaker drop and buying groceries as a high-risk person in a global pandemic.
for the most part, the grocery stores themselves don't seem to make any effort to prioritize curbside or delivery slots for high-risk people. why should a third-party notification service be expected to do so?
I commented this already above so forgive me, but in the UK, Sainsbury's is limiting curbside and delivery to high risk people. But they're only able to do so because they're getting a list of high-risk people from the government and validating against that list. That isn't really possible for us. https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/working-to-fe...
How would you know? I just checked a few times and they are always full, at least since the first week, so I gave up. Doesn't tell you anything about who is using it and how.
I've checked instacart, amazon, and a couple local stores for delivery/pickup slots. there's no place on any of the web forms to indicate that you would be eligible for a priority slot, and I haven't found any news articles to suggest otherwise. my seventy-year-old parents are also unaware of any way to get priority slots, so I am assuming they don't exist. my impression is that the stores consider "elderly hour" to be an adequate solution.
I care about my family first though. We now grab the next Wal-Mart spot after every Wal-Mart run. We never used to go grocery shopping every 3 days, but when we can't be sure we can go on demand we make sure that at least don't have to wait more than 3 days to get something. If they had slots available all the time we would mostly do larger orders and use less slots overall.
I got all excited when I saw the landing page graphic has groceries from an Australian grocery store: Woolworths.
Alas...
Alas...
sorry :( does Woolworth's have curbside? Maybe we could add it!
edit: just checked and they're only doing it for people who are confirmed as high risk (which is good!) Are there any grocery stores in AU that are doing pickup open to the general public?
edit: just checked and they're only doing it for people who are confirmed as high risk (which is good!) Are there any grocery stores in AU that are doing pickup open to the general public?
What I’ve found with Whole Foods delivery is that if you wait for a notification you’ve lost the slot. I use a bot that plays a loud sound when a slot is available and foregrounds the Firefox window. I then have to click the checkout flow immediately. If I’m even a foot away from my machine when it happens I lose the slot. I only get deliveries when I’m active on my PC.
Are you using Amazon Prime Now for Whole Foods delivery? In SF I wasn't able to get a delivery window for several days (admittedly I wasn't checking more than a couple of times per day), but on night on a whim I decided to check right after midnight and was able to schedule a delivery for 2 days in the future. Obviously a tiny sample size, but it appears they only ever schedule for 2 days in advance, and they must open up new windows at midnight (and perhaps at other scheduled times throughout the day).
Several days before that, I had a very annoying problem, which was that I checked the Prime Now app and saw that there were delivery windows, so I added all the items I wanted, and then there were no longer any windows. Also, every time you refresh, it apparently just silently removes from your cart any items which are no longer in stock, which means you better keep your shopping list written down somewhere if you don't have it down by heart!
Several days before that, I had a very annoying problem, which was that I checked the Prime Now app and saw that there were delivery windows, so I added all the items I wanted, and then there were no longer any windows. Also, every time you refresh, it apparently just silently removes from your cart any items which are no longer in stock, which means you better keep your shopping list written down somewhere if you don't have it down by heart!
It's incredibly frustrating. They encourage you to fill a cart with items that you can't actually buy unless you get extremely lucky. Amazon Fresh has exactly the same problem.
Imagine the collective amount of time wasted by this appalling UX that they have zero incentive to fix.
Imagine the collective amount of time wasted by this appalling UX that they have zero incentive to fix.
The flip side is that in the UK where you book a slot and then fill up your cart, there are a lot of people cancelling their carts at the last minute and wasting delivery bandwidth. Of course that has its own fixes but basically this system worked fine until a few weeks ago so everyone is playing catch up.
That midnight trick worked for awhile but now they release slots mostly during the day.
I'd love to hear the details of how you set this up with Firefox? How does the bot work?
(Also is there even a way to setup a notification when Whole Foods delivery slots are available?)
(Also is there even a way to setup a notification when Whole Foods delivery slots are available?)
I have not used it (and I'm not sure if this is what freepor was referring to) but a co-worker sent me this: https://github.com/pcomputo/Whole-Foods-Delivery-Slot
It's nothing too complicated but not going into details since half the people reading this are in San Francisco competing with me for delivery slots.
Please please please make this work for the UK!
We've got Tesco and Waitrose on the list to add! (Sainsbury's is out because they're verifying against NHS lists of high risk people)
https://github.com/MiniCodeMonkey/curbside/issues
https://github.com/MiniCodeMonkey/curbside/issues
Thank you!
US only
We wait in line for the ATM or the checkout or anything else because a scrabble is unfair. Using a tool like this when others almost certainly are not doesn’t really feel fair on those other people.
Having to check manually for a slot sucks, but so does waiting in line, and that’s the lowest common denominator of behavior that still counts as fair which we can all adhere to right now.
I get that the grocery companies should make the slot selection better. But laying the blame on them feels a bit like the FAQ for those padlocks that stop the airline passenger in front of you from being able to recline, where the manufacturer tried to claim we are all in this together their product is just part of a campaign for better airline seating for us all. It was no such thing: it was kind of selfish.
In any other climate I’d happily be told to quit my social justice moralism, but things seem quite serious at the moment, and I wouldn’t encourage using this tool, but maybe I’m taking it too far.