Money Horror(oltdaniel.at)
oltdaniel.at
Money Horror
https://oltdaniel.at/2020/money-horror.html
16 comments
I feel like there's an argument to be made for having an actual human monitoring large transactions. If you're trying to take out a $600,000 mortgage at 3 AM on a Sunday, that probably shouldn't go through, or at the very least have some human verification. Humans tend to work 9-5 Monday to Friday
Surely anomaly detection is better done by a machine?
I guess there's a certain level of human "intuition" about these things but is this not what most banks anti-fraud systems do already?
I guess there's a certain level of human "intuition" about these things but is this not what most banks anti-fraud systems do already?
> Surely anomaly detection is better done by a machine?
I've worked with machines. I don't think this is a good idea.
I've worked with machines. I don't think this is a good idea.
I imagine the problem with this is it becomes a game-able system if it's purely automated. Sort of like the stereotype in Law and Order where they always pay hitmen $9,999 because "the IRS only monitors transfers over 10k."
On the other hand, maybe this is a kind of perverse benefit of opaque ML systems.
I think its game-able automated or not. Fraud exists today and is playing on these exact systems.
When you use a credit card, it's not just a single transaction that happens between you and the merchant. There are 2 more stakeholders here: your bank and the credit card company. In the background, that's a lot of transactions that happen at different times. So, not everyone gets their money at the same time.
This creates risks: as debts are created and exchanged, it may be that that debt won't be settled (i.e. maybe you went bankrupt). So, that's why clearing houses exist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearing_house_(finance)
During the 1970's, automated clearing houses became a thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_clearing_house
These don't always process transactions in real time, but in batches for various complex reasons. Legal framework and compliancy being one of them, reducing risks was another reason.
In the U.S., the legal framework was recently changed to allow processing within the same business day:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/ach.asp
That network of clearing houses is not just used for domestic debts, it's also used for large financial transactions. These are institutions that are build on immense amounts of trust. And so, simply re-tooling them to be "instantly responsive" towards someone who wants to buy pop from a vending machine? That's not gonna happen.
The author assumes that cryptocurrency is going to change this because "open source". Well, no. Not really.
First, buying from your own crypto wallet is more like debet then it is credit. Second, being able to take out a small cryptocoin credit or loans has little to do with the fact that a blockchain prevents you from spending the same coin twice.
The idea of credit is that you take out a debt you'll settle up at a later time, i.e. 3 weeks later. There's still the issue of risk and you still need to do the entire transaction dance done by lenders, merchants and borrower. That's not something cryptocoins make fundamentally can dispense with.
Finally, the author is a student. Large organisations, like higher ed, often offer a local e-wallet solutions that allows payment for everything within their facilities (also barring outsiders from enjoying benefits reserved for organization members such as staff and students). You simply wire money to your account from your bank and your good to go. Another option is... simply asking if that vending machine could be swapped for one that accepts debet cards and cash.
This creates risks: as debts are created and exchanged, it may be that that debt won't be settled (i.e. maybe you went bankrupt). So, that's why clearing houses exist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearing_house_(finance)
During the 1970's, automated clearing houses became a thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_clearing_house
These don't always process transactions in real time, but in batches for various complex reasons. Legal framework and compliancy being one of them, reducing risks was another reason.
In the U.S., the legal framework was recently changed to allow processing within the same business day:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/ach.asp
That network of clearing houses is not just used for domestic debts, it's also used for large financial transactions. These are institutions that are build on immense amounts of trust. And so, simply re-tooling them to be "instantly responsive" towards someone who wants to buy pop from a vending machine? That's not gonna happen.
The author assumes that cryptocurrency is going to change this because "open source". Well, no. Not really.
First, buying from your own crypto wallet is more like debet then it is credit. Second, being able to take out a small cryptocoin credit or loans has little to do with the fact that a blockchain prevents you from spending the same coin twice.
The idea of credit is that you take out a debt you'll settle up at a later time, i.e. 3 weeks later. There's still the issue of risk and you still need to do the entire transaction dance done by lenders, merchants and borrower. That's not something cryptocoins make fundamentally can dispense with.
Finally, the author is a student. Large organisations, like higher ed, often offer a local e-wallet solutions that allows payment for everything within their facilities (also barring outsiders from enjoying benefits reserved for organization members such as staff and students). You simply wire money to your account from your bank and your good to go. Another option is... simply asking if that vending machine could be swapped for one that accepts debet cards and cash.
I once tried to rent a car at an airport rental car place while my car was in the shop. They wouldn't let me do it without a credit card. They wouldn't accept my debit card, they said, unless I had flown in (despite that my card can be ran as a credit card).
Lyft happily accepted my debit card and probably cost less in the end anyway.
Lyft happily accepted my debit card and probably cost less in the end anyway.
This is a bit "don't do that, then"; almost all the vital things take debit cards, including through contactless.
It would certainly be nice to have something like Vipps in more countries; EU Faster Payments is getting there but not quite as usable. And it's 24-hour.
For any of the peer-to-peer solutions, you have to consider the fraud problems. The problem with micropayments is microfraud.
It would certainly be nice to have something like Vipps in more countries; EU Faster Payments is getting there but not quite as usable. And it's 24-hour.
For any of the peer-to-peer solutions, you have to consider the fraud problems. The problem with micropayments is microfraud.
One of the most surprising experiences of my most recent trip to the USA (18 months ago) was how few places seemed to cope with cards — and that those which did, mostly still used the magnetic stripe.
The experience showed me why Apple Pay and Google Pay were considered worth developing, or using. The only places which could do contactless payment with my card could also do it with my smartphone.
The experience showed me why Apple Pay and Google Pay were considered worth developing, or using. The only places which could do contactless payment with my card could also do it with my smartphone.
"Only with a credit card. I am a student, I have no real world use for this kind of card"
Yes you do, that vending machine you're standing in front of
Yes you do, that vending machine you're standing in front of
You feel the need to take out a short-term loan for your soda purchase?
The fact that a debit card isn't considered as good as (and further, that it's not assumed to be better than) a credit card is yet another bit of money horror.
The fact that a debit card isn't considered as good as (and further, that it's not assumed to be better than) a credit card is yet another bit of money horror.
The way the credit card system is setup is what it is. If you know what you are doing you can take advantage of it.
One should almost never use a debit card, as if it gets compromised the money comes directly out of your account and the banks don’t have much incentive to help too much.
With a credit card, that stolen money belongs to the bank, and therefore they have a big incentive to get it back, so using this kind of card allows you to wield the power of a large company for your benefit. As long as you pay off the full bill every month, you are getting this protection for free.
One should almost never use a debit card, as if it gets compromised the money comes directly out of your account and the banks don’t have much incentive to help too much.
With a credit card, that stolen money belongs to the bank, and therefore they have a big incentive to get it back, so using this kind of card allows you to wield the power of a large company for your benefit. As long as you pay off the full bill every month, you are getting this protection for free.
Perhaps this is regional thing, but in my country I get exact same level of protection for both credit and debit cards. Regulatory pressure can be useful at times.
It’s a free loan for a short period, and if you don’t settle timely due to your own impulses to over “borrow”, you incur high interest, and only then do these loans become a problem.
Otherwise there’s no reason not to use a CC instead of debit. It can even be life saving if you’re slim on the savings and are smart with your CC usage and settlement.
Otherwise there’s no reason not to use a CC instead of debit. It can even be life saving if you’re slim on the savings and are smart with your CC usage and settlement.
I don't want to take out loans, and I never want to owe anyone money. I have the money to afford a soda right now, why can't I use that?
A short term loan that will be 0% interest if you pay the full balance every month? In exchange for greater security and in most cases points/miles?
Credit cards aren't for everyone, but if you can pay the full balance every month then there's no reason to not use one.
Credit cards aren't for everyone, but if you can pay the full balance every month then there's no reason to not use one.
> if you can pay the full balance every month then there's no reason to not use one
And if the alternative is using a debit card, then by definition you can pay the full balance every month, because the money has to be there in your bank account before you can spend it with the debit card anyway. It's the same money either way, the only difference is whether it comes out of your bank account in little increments over the month or in one big chunk when you pay your monthly bill.
And if the alternative is using a debit card, then by definition you can pay the full balance every month, because the money has to be there in your bank account before you can spend it with the debit card anyway. It's the same money either way, the only difference is whether it comes out of your bank account in little increments over the month or in one big chunk when you pay your monthly bill.
The reason credit cards exist - and why Visa and Mastercard are worth $800 billion - is that people, on average, do not manage their money effectively enough to come out ahead. Their average customers come out so far behind, instead, that the credit card companies can afford the occasional default and they can afford to offer rewards and the automatic 0% interest loans to try to entice more customers.
Yes, I understand that, but that doesn't change the fact that if you are able to manage your money effectively (and if the alternative is using a debit card, you are, since, as I noted, the money has to be there in your bank account anyway), then you can take advantage of the credit card's benefit of not giving anyone direct access to your bank account, as a debit card does.
In the US, if someone fraudulently uses your debit card they can clean out your bank account, possibly with no recourse. With a credit card you're only liable for $50.
Debit cards are a dumpster fire in my opinion, at least if you own a car.
When you use a debit card to buy gas they put a hold for a few hundred dollars, as if you were filling up the side saddle gas tanks of a huge pickup truck at $6 a gallon instead of filling up a compact. The holds last for days instead of the one minute it takes for me to fill my Honda, or the ten minutes it takes somebody to fill an Escalade.
If it works at all, you can go on a road trip and wind up with enough holds that you have overdraft fees, bouncing checks, fees because you wrote bouncing checks, late fees because of payments that failed, etc.
The "short term loan" from a credit card is not a rip-off, but it means you are laying off risk on them.
If somebody steals your debit card number then they can clean out your bank account and you have little recourse. When I did have my debit card number stolen the bank told me that I had to be careful because they could only change one digit in the number because the rest of it was based on my bank account number.
I told them to turn off debit card transactions on my ATM card.
When you use a debit card to buy gas they put a hold for a few hundred dollars, as if you were filling up the side saddle gas tanks of a huge pickup truck at $6 a gallon instead of filling up a compact. The holds last for days instead of the one minute it takes for me to fill my Honda, or the ten minutes it takes somebody to fill an Escalade.
If it works at all, you can go on a road trip and wind up with enough holds that you have overdraft fees, bouncing checks, fees because you wrote bouncing checks, late fees because of payments that failed, etc.
The "short term loan" from a credit card is not a rip-off, but it means you are laying off risk on them.
If somebody steals your debit card number then they can clean out your bank account and you have little recourse. When I did have my debit card number stolen the bank told me that I had to be careful because they could only change one digit in the number because the rest of it was based on my bank account number.
I told them to turn off debit card transactions on my ATM card.
I've never had a hold on my debit card filling up at a gas station. I've had a hold when I've booked hotel rooms, and I've had to put down a deposit when renting a car with it, but that's the only hassle I've had. Midwestern US, banking with a local credit union.
...yes?
1. pay with your own money.
2. pay with someone else's money, with no interest, and with various other advantages.
Why would anyone, ever chose #1?
1. pay with your own money.
2. pay with someone else's money, with no interest, and with various other advantages.
Why would anyone, ever chose #1?
Well, the other credit building options are much less accessible: mortgage, car, personal, etc loans. I would say credit card loans are the easiest/most accessible to individuals to start building their credit.
In the US, I haven't seen a debit card that wasn't also usable as a "credit card" (VISA/MasterCard numbers) in decades.
>You feel the need to take out a short-term loan for your soda purchase?
Yeah why not? It's interest free for at least 3 weeks
Yeah why not? It's interest free for at least 3 weeks
> we have an vending machine where you can pay with a credit card
> I have no real world use for this kind of card
Seems to me that he does.
> I have no real world use for this kind of card
Seems to me that he does.
Fair enough. But I don't pay 2€ per month for a credit card from my local bank to buy stuff from a vending machine. The overall point is, that I have not enough use cases to make resonable use of it in the real world over my current free debit card.
In the US, many, if not most, credit cards don't charge a monthly fee. Is it different in the EU?
[deleted]
I have not many experiences as I am 19 and haven't switche banks, but my current bank requires a fee. See https://www.lzo.com/de/home/privatkunden/kreditkarte.html
INGDiba and Comdirect both offer free credit cards. Probably many more banks do as well.
Doesn't seem to be the case for ING:
https://www.ing.nl/particulier/betalen/creditcards/index.htm...
Comdirect does, but he is in the Netherlands.
https://www.ing.nl/particulier/betalen/creditcards/index.htm...
Comdirect does, but he is in the Netherlands.
In the Netherlands with my bank at least, yes there is a fee. There is also a fee for having a bank account with its included debit card, but you can't do without. Credit cards are of very limited use.
Are there really no free credit cards available in your country?
In many countries paying with a credit card gives you greater legal and fraud protection. Also helps build your credit rating.
In many countries paying with a credit card gives you greater legal and fraud protection. Also helps build your credit rating.
I'm curious if there's anywhere else outside the US where "building your credit rating" by accumulating debt history from e.g. credit cards is a thing and makes a difference. I haven't heard it mentioned as a US-specific thing, but I've also only ever heard Americans talk about it.
In the UK it is absolutely a thing. Why would it not be a thing?
The cost of rigorous consumer protections is sometimes monetary.
I have this discussion with European friends regularly: No, I don't automatically get a three-year warranty on everything I buy. I don't even want such a thing, sometimes. And in return I pay much less for everyday items.
I have this discussion with European friends regularly: No, I don't automatically get a three-year warranty on everything I buy. I don't even want such a thing, sometimes. And in return I pay much less for everyday items.
The parent comment and the one it's relying to are about keeping a credit card to build credit history. I don't see what your comment has to do with that. Am I missing something?
Did you think they were still talking about paying a fee for credit cards? Typically in the UK there's no fees for credit cards, the cost is just in the interest if you don't pay it off in time. In fact there are usually less fees for financial services in European countries e.g. checking accounts and ATMs usually don't have fees. (I mean there isn't usually a fee just for having a checking account, but there are of course fees for doing certain things with it such as a CHAPS transfer.)
Did you think they were still talking about paying a fee for credit cards? Typically in the UK there's no fees for credit cards, the cost is just in the interest if you don't pay it off in time. In fact there are usually less fees for financial services in European countries e.g. checking accounts and ATMs usually don't have fees. (I mean there isn't usually a fee just for having a checking account, but there are of course fees for doing certain things with it such as a CHAPS transfer.)
I have not heard this be a factor when people get mortgages or loans. So "because it doesn't matter".
But apparently in the UK it does! So if I understand right, not having a history of debt can be a problem when getting a mortgage or loan simply because lack of data for them to make any assessment?
But apparently in the UK it does! So if I understand right, not having a history of debt can be a problem when getting a mortgage or loan simply because lack of data for them to make any assessment?
It is true in the UK too, although I doubt it would make much difference when applying for a mortgage, but maybe for a small loan.
If anything having a credit card works against your credit - you could decide to take on debt at any moment, so they assume you already have that debt, and have less capacity to take on more.
In the same vein, I have no reason to use my debit card which is directly connected to "my money" than to use a credit card which is "not my money".
To be honest, I always kind of lol at these kinds of rants. Wishing for the "one true payment system" is like thinking that everyone will switch over to speaking Esperanto in the near future. NEVER going to happen.
Also, many of his gripes seem ridiculous. I don't know if the situation is different in Europe, but in the US I think pretty much everyone should have a credit card. You can use a secured card if you have bad credit, and most debit cards in the US can be swiped as a credit card. All of his non-existent problems seem like they could be fixed by getting a credit card. Credit cards also have better fraud protection, let you build credit, and usually have better rewards for consumers. There is virtually no difference in privacy benefits between credit and debit cards.
Also, many of his gripes seem ridiculous. I don't know if the situation is different in Europe, but in the US I think pretty much everyone should have a credit card. You can use a secured card if you have bad credit, and most debit cards in the US can be swiped as a credit card. All of his non-existent problems seem like they could be fixed by getting a credit card. Credit cards also have better fraud protection, let you build credit, and usually have better rewards for consumers. There is virtually no difference in privacy benefits between credit and debit cards.
Many people have aversion to actual credit cards because most middle-to-lower-class families have stories of family members going into financial ruin, exacerbated by or ending with credit card debt.
"Just be responsible with your credit cards" is an easy mantra to live by if you are financially privileged.
"Just be responsible with your credit cards" is an easy mantra to live by if you are financially privileged.
Get a secured card then.
> most middle-to-lower-class families
Citation needed
Citation needed
The only financial privilege needed to use a credit card safely and responsibly is the discipline to not spend more than one can pay when the statement arrives. It's nothing more than self control.
> To be honest, I always kind of lol at these kinds of rants. Wishing for the "one true payment system" is like thinking that everyone will switch over to speaking Esperanto in the near future.
There always exists cash (except for internet transactions, of course).
There always exists cash (except for internet transactions, of course).
Even that isn't a universally acceptable solution; most countries will take dollars as well as local currency in some shops, but by no means all. And if you're from a non-dollar country your chances of international acceptance are much lower.
Unfortunately, no. Cash is effectively getting phased out in Sweden; these days, there are more physical shops denying cash than accepting it.
Trying to make either a deposit or a withdrawal of "large sums" (> ~1K USD equivalent is my understanding) cash at a bank will get serious scrutiny and may even result in funds being seized or frozen.
Things have changed really fast, too. Just 2 years ago I don't recall ever being in a store which didn't accept cash.
And yet, all solutions other than cash are from private banks, which have no obligations to take you as a customer.
Unfortunately it seems like Sweden is far from alone in being on this trajectory, they're just a little bit ahead in this sense.
I do think that there's a case to be made for permissionlessly operated cryptocurrency on a public ledger here.
Trying to make either a deposit or a withdrawal of "large sums" (> ~1K USD equivalent is my understanding) cash at a bank will get serious scrutiny and may even result in funds being seized or frozen.
Things have changed really fast, too. Just 2 years ago I don't recall ever being in a store which didn't accept cash.
And yet, all solutions other than cash are from private banks, which have no obligations to take you as a customer.
Unfortunately it seems like Sweden is far from alone in being on this trajectory, they're just a little bit ahead in this sense.
I do think that there's a case to be made for permissionlessly operated cryptocurrency on a public ledger here.
I never understood why some shops/restaurants do not take cash. It's only a minor inconvenience having to deposit the cash in-person and you don't lose money on any transaction fee. Maybe to protect against theft? But still, using cash saves the seller 1-3% on that transaction.
People want to get paid. Most people will take most forms of payment if it gets them a sale that they wouldn't otherwise get. There's a cost, of course, to supporting different modes of payment, but if the increased business outweighs the cost, most businesses will take payment in that form. They're there to get paid, not to champion one method of payment.
I note, however, that in your first paragraph you dismiss the "one true payment system", and in your second, you pretty much advocate credit cards as that one true system.
I note, however, that in your first paragraph you dismiss the "one true payment system", and in your second, you pretty much advocate credit cards as that one true system.
I moved from the UK to Germany about 18 months ago.
In the UK, credit cards are widely used but by no means universally owned.
In Berlin, quite a lot of places only take cash, and those which do take cards often only take debit. I don’t think I’ve even seen a single credit card advertised in the window of any high-street bank.
In the UK, credit cards are widely used but by no means universally owned.
In Berlin, quite a lot of places only take cash, and those which do take cards often only take debit. I don’t think I’ve even seen a single credit card advertised in the window of any high-street bank.
The point is, that there are so many different standards that allow you to pay with one thing everywhere. And I personally need to pay a fee for a credit card, which is the usual case in the EU. And there are not many uses cases or advantages I have for a credit card over a free debit card. The thing is just, that I want to point out in the article, that the systems we have all want to solve this but always fail. Its 2020, not 1990, We have so much tech on our hands and banks still fail to implement it.
Well, not in the US, so maybe the solution then is to just do what we do. I have never had any of your problems, at any merchant, anywhere, in the US.
Agreed, this is simply not an issue in the US.
Our banking system here is backwards in many ways, but the rigamarole described here just doesn't happen. US companies are much better about separating people from their money efficiently, I guess.
Our banking system here is backwards in many ways, but the rigamarole described here just doesn't happen. US companies are much better about separating people from their money efficiently, I guess.
This makes me glad to live in the UK, where it seems to me we might just have the best payments industry in the world.
\* Faster (instant) payments 24/7.
\* All purchase transactions are generally assumed to be debit card, credit cards are never required and very much optional (I don't have a credit card)
\* Contactless payments are instant, easy and completely standard, everything from the corner shop upward has them. You don't need your PIN for less than £30 (£45 quid from next week).
\* A banking industry that is quick to refund anything from any fraud without asking, which makes for a low case of fraud because they pro-actively block odd transactions.
\* Up to £75k insured per bank
I've often heard stories about payments that I just can't relate to because it seems our payment industry is so good. We have no need for bitcoin and the trendy start-ups don't even gain much traction because the banks own apps are normally just as good anyway.
\* Faster (instant) payments 24/7.
\* All purchase transactions are generally assumed to be debit card, credit cards are never required and very much optional (I don't have a credit card)
\* Contactless payments are instant, easy and completely standard, everything from the corner shop upward has them. You don't need your PIN for less than £30 (£45 quid from next week).
\* A banking industry that is quick to refund anything from any fraud without asking, which makes for a low case of fraud because they pro-actively block odd transactions.
\* Up to £75k insured per bank
I've often heard stories about payments that I just can't relate to because it seems our payment industry is so good. We have no need for bitcoin and the trendy start-ups don't even gain much traction because the banks own apps are normally just as good anyway.
I think most day-to-day problems are easily solved by just getting a credit card, there are lots of no-fee cards that pretty much anyone can get. They work everywhere, and have fraud protection (edit: In North America at least).
For me, the biggest problem is trying to move large amounts of money around, especially across borders. It took me like 3 phone calls and a trip to the bank to figure out how to move my money from my US bank account to my Canadian bank account without having to pay an absurd $40 wire fee. And of course currency conversion is a pain as well - if you are converting a large amount of money you either pay a tonne of fees through the bank, pay a fairly large amount of fees (~1%) through something like Transferwise, or pay no fees by going through the hastle of Norberts Gambit.
For me, the biggest problem is trying to move large amounts of money around, especially across borders. It took me like 3 phone calls and a trip to the bank to figure out how to move my money from my US bank account to my Canadian bank account without having to pay an absurd $40 wire fee. And of course currency conversion is a pain as well - if you are converting a large amount of money you either pay a tonne of fees through the bank, pay a fairly large amount of fees (~1%) through something like Transferwise, or pay no fees by going through the hastle of Norberts Gambit.
I feel his pain.
I emigrated to Canada from Australia, and it was exceptionally hard for me to get a credit card. Apparently no credit rating is the same as the very worst credit rating. It also took time to get paperwork like a drivers license and SIN number (a bit like an SSN), and without those there was no chance. I had to go a few years without one, and the number of things I couldn't do without one was immensely frustrating.
Visa debit sounds great, but I find it doesn't work for a ton of transactions that want a credit card.
In the end I had to put $1000 into a special locked-in account that I couldn't touch before the bank would issue me a $1000 credit card.
I emigrated to Canada from Australia, and it was exceptionally hard for me to get a credit card. Apparently no credit rating is the same as the very worst credit rating. It also took time to get paperwork like a drivers license and SIN number (a bit like an SSN), and without those there was no chance. I had to go a few years without one, and the number of things I couldn't do without one was immensely frustrating.
Visa debit sounds great, but I find it doesn't work for a ton of transactions that want a credit card.
In the end I had to put $1000 into a special locked-in account that I couldn't touch before the bank would issue me a $1000 credit card.
Would it be correct to assume the vending machine only accepts credit as it likely doesn't have a direct connection to a banking system to authorize the payments at time of purchase?
I seem to remember credit being a requirement for making purchases on planes for this same reason.
I'm curious because I live in the UK and pretty much all terminals here accept debit cards, although I think the UK in general has been a bit ahead in terms of payment standards (chip & pin, contactless etc.)
I seem to remember credit being a requirement for making purchases on planes for this same reason.
I'm curious because I live in the UK and pretty much all terminals here accept debit cards, although I think the UK in general has been a bit ahead in terms of payment standards (chip & pin, contactless etc.)
The author (who seems to use his cards in Germany) is most likely confused. The problem is not with debit cards vs. credit cards. Every terminal I've seen in Austria and Germany supports both (but see below). The problem is that Austrians, Germans, and perhaps other EU countries think that Mastercard/Visa means credit card, and Maestro/Giro/whatever means debit card. This is exacerbated by the fact that until very recently you couldn't even get a Mastercard/Visa debit card in Austria (1).
These terminals support Mastercard/Visa cards, plus more recently contactless. Mastercard debit cards certainly work.
Btw, if you are an american visiting these countries, and you want to pay with a debit card, when the cashier asks if you pay with a debit or a credit card, answer credit card. They don't care whether it's credit vs. debit, they need to know if it's Mastercard/Visa or the local crap card, to push the correct button on the PoS. If you answer debit, it will NOT work.
1. Austria recently started replacing Maestro cards with Mastercard debit cards... but they seem to be some kind of funny Mastercard cards, not "real" enough for these terminals (except in contactless mode)... But at least you can pay for your plane ticket.
These terminals support Mastercard/Visa cards, plus more recently contactless. Mastercard debit cards certainly work.
Btw, if you are an american visiting these countries, and you want to pay with a debit card, when the cashier asks if you pay with a debit or a credit card, answer credit card. They don't care whether it's credit vs. debit, they need to know if it's Mastercard/Visa or the local crap card, to push the correct button on the PoS. If you answer debit, it will NOT work.
1. Austria recently started replacing Maestro cards with Mastercard debit cards... but they seem to be some kind of funny Mastercard cards, not "real" enough for these terminals (except in contactless mode)... But at least you can pay for your plane ticket.
He specifically mentions that he's in the Netherlands in the article.
And based on the writing in the "banking standards" paragraph it appears he understands the difference between debit / credit cards and that banking network they operate on doesn't determine the type of finance they provide
And based on the writing in the "banking standards" paragraph it appears he understands the difference between debit / credit cards and that banking network they operate on doesn't determine the type of finance they provide
> we have an vending machine where you can pay with a credit card or cash. Well, there is the issue already. Only with a credit card. I am a student, I have no real world use for this kind of card
I think you've just proven that you have at least one real-world use. It may still not be worth the bother, though.
I think you've just proven that you have at least one real-world use. It may still not be worth the bother, though.
Using Bitcoin as a settlement layer has enabled services to crop up that provide interesting crosswalks of other payment layers, see https://twitter.com/ln_strike
Bitcoin is probably the worst settlement layer there is.
[deleted]
I like the optimism of imagining, in April of 2020, that the mild inconveniences of various payment systems will continue to qualify as "money horror"!
There is just one thing, that he has forgot about it. He feeds a huge survailance capitalism machine with his data. The horror is not where he envisions, the horror is in, f.i. google tracking all his expenses.
Not that they know who are your contacts (android contacts synced, gmail contacts, images uploaded,...), where you surf (googletags, google analytics), what you search (google search), what software you use (google play, google spyware framework,...), now they also know where you spend your money.
Now this is real horror.
Not that they know who are your contacts (android contacts synced, gmail contacts, images uploaded,...), where you surf (googletags, google analytics), what you search (google search), what software you use (google play, google spyware framework,...), now they also know where you spend your money.
Now this is real horror.
Use a stable coin... USDC if you are worried about regulations and risk.
This is correct. The correct response to payment and settlement "pauses" for silly things like weekends and holidays is derision. Contempt. Ridicule.
These settlement timelines are based literally on horse and buggy schedules from the 1800s. They have no place in our modern workflow.