Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?
82 comments
In my CL template, I end up talking about how, in high school, I woke up at 5:00 am to practice for contest math tests
Take that out. It doesn't matter what sort of job you're applying for -- the words "high school" should never appear in the resume or cover letter of anyone who has a college degree.
As for the rest: Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for. If I was applying for a management position at a bank (not that I can imagine why I'd ever do that, but hypothetically...) I'd still turn up for an interview wearing a t-shirt and jeans. If my apparel wasn't up to standard, that would be an indication that the job I was applying for wasn't actually a job I wanted -- and being not offered the job would simply save me the trouble of quitting after a few weeks.
Take that out. It doesn't matter what sort of job you're applying for -- the words "high school" should never appear in the resume or cover letter of anyone who has a college degree.
As for the rest: Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for. If I was applying for a management position at a bank (not that I can imagine why I'd ever do that, but hypothetically...) I'd still turn up for an interview wearing a t-shirt and jeans. If my apparel wasn't up to standard, that would be an indication that the job I was applying for wasn't actually a job I wanted -- and being not offered the job would simply save me the trouble of quitting after a few weeks.
"Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for."
Very nice. Put into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I won't be pulling out the suit for future interviews.
For interviews, the best advice I've heard is to remember that you're evaluating them as much as they are you. If they demand/care that you dress a certain way, perhaps it's a good sign you don't want to work there (unless you're into that kind of thing).
I have read posts that hint at a bit of hypocrisy in startups, though: "We wear t-shirts because clothes don't matter, but if you wear a suit you're unfit for startup hacker life." Bear that in mind if you really LOVE wearing suits. :P
Very nice. Put into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I won't be pulling out the suit for future interviews.
For interviews, the best advice I've heard is to remember that you're evaluating them as much as they are you. If they demand/care that you dress a certain way, perhaps it's a good sign you don't want to work there (unless you're into that kind of thing).
I have read posts that hint at a bit of hypocrisy in startups, though: "We wear t-shirts because clothes don't matter, but if you wear a suit you're unfit for startup hacker life." Bear that in mind if you really LOVE wearing suits. :P
The job I would like to have required me sitting around in my underwear and possibly a shirt. Joking aside, I don't agree with the dress like the job you want at all. It's important to convy professionalism. When you go to a wedding do you wear shorts and a tshirt because its comfortable? No, you want to look the part. A job is no different. I think its better to be over dressed then under dressed.
I work for a super casual company now. I wear a t-shirt and jeans to work every day. They actually asked me on my interview why I was wearing a suit. As soon as I spoke, they could tell I wasnt a stuck up stiff "suit". I showed some personality, smiled and laughed a bit. On the other hand I have seen people come through here in hoodies who get the job. But I would personally never wear anything less than a suit to an interview.
I work for a super casual company now. I wear a t-shirt and jeans to work every day. They actually asked me on my interview why I was wearing a suit. As soon as I spoke, they could tell I wasnt a stuck up stiff "suit". I showed some personality, smiled and laughed a bit. On the other hand I have seen people come through here in hoodies who get the job. But I would personally never wear anything less than a suit to an interview.
> "We wear t-shirts because clothes don't matter, but if you wear a suit you're unfit for startup hacker life."
That puts into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I defiantly wear dress pants and expensive shirts (+ suit and tie for interviews) even when working at a tech startup with 20-somethings in (carefully chosen) worn jeans and t-shirts.
If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthetics, not excluding the clothes I wear?
That puts into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I defiantly wear dress pants and expensive shirts (+ suit and tie for interviews) even when working at a tech startup with 20-somethings in (carefully chosen) worn jeans and t-shirts.
If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthetics, not excluding the clothes I wear?
> If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthetics, not excluding the clothes I wear?
Because they do matter. The function of any level or style of dress at an interview is to mark you as part of the Right Group. This holds true even when the interviewers don't realize that they're unconsciously doing it.
Overdressing for an interview at some companies can put you in the Wrong Group just as surely as underdressing will at others.
Because they do matter. The function of any level or style of dress at an interview is to mark you as part of the Right Group. This holds true even when the interviewers don't realize that they're unconsciously doing it.
Overdressing for an interview at some companies can put you in the Wrong Group just as surely as underdressing will at others.
The last time I wore a tie at work was my job interview.
You should always dress nicer for the interview than you expect to for the job. It has nothing to do with impressing the interviewer. I wore a tie to my interview because it made me feel important, which made me feel more confident, which made me come across as a more compelling candidate.
Use whatever tools you have to manipulate yourself into being the person (at least temporarily) who easily gets the job you want.
You should always dress nicer for the interview than you expect to for the job. It has nothing to do with impressing the interviewer. I wore a tie to my interview because it made me feel important, which made me feel more confident, which made me come across as a more compelling candidate.
Use whatever tools you have to manipulate yourself into being the person (at least temporarily) who easily gets the job you want.
I'd rather hire someone who is comfortable in any situation (mechanics clothes or business suit) than a rigid smartass who won't change they way he or she dresses no matter what...
I would always dress "professionally" because I do not know what the guy on the other side is going to think. I don't want the start of the interview to be the end of it. When I talk to the interviewer I can know if that person is someone I can be working with, I always ask what the dress code is like and I assure you it makes no difference.
One company was 100% casual (don't wear a miniskirt and you are fine). The company was the biggest POS to work for.
Another company is business casual (occasionally they don't mind me wearing a t-shirt and jeans) and it is is just a pleasure to work at this one.
Edit: I actually like wearing business casual, very comfortable cloths.
One company was 100% casual (don't wear a miniskirt and you are fine). The company was the biggest POS to work for.
Another company is business casual (occasionally they don't mind me wearing a t-shirt and jeans) and it is is just a pleasure to work at this one.
Edit: I actually like wearing business casual, very comfortable cloths.
To me at least, a suit is a tool to be used where it will give me leverage I would not otherwise have. It's a social hack to get access to both places and people. Personally I prefer not to work in one, but for important meetings or for working directly with (formal, older) customers then it's worth putting on the monkey suit.
Forgive me, but I find it humorous that you reference a suit as a "monkey" costume, particularly in comparison to the art direction and name of Bathing Ape and the like.
I'm 26 and I find the trendy designer-esque throwback to the 80's an eye-sore that belongs in a circus, and a contradiction to the shouting cry for individuality when hipsters congregate.
I'm 26 and I find the trendy designer-esque throwback to the 80's an eye-sore that belongs in a circus, and a contradiction to the shouting cry for individuality when hipsters congregate.
Agreed on taking out high school. I'm 28 and recently began taking out all references to college as well a couple years ago (my resume lists my degrees).
I agree dress like the job you want to have, but I disagree with the t-shirt bit. I've worked at 4 different companies, and always show up wearing professional, clean clothes to my interview (suit and tie the first time, since then just button down shirts and dress pants or khakis).
The t-shirt and jeans can wait until you've proven yourself for a few months. I go to work now in shorts and a t-shirt, so this isn't some sour grapes rant. Though I dress casual for work, given a choice between two identical, impeccably groomed, candidates one who came professionally dressed and one who came in shorts and a t-shirt (and that being the only difference), I would be likely to hire the one who came like he was here to interview.
Of course, I would hire someone casually dressed who knows their stuff over an idiot who happens to be wearing a suit, but I don't think there's any reason to put yourself at a disadvantage. Don't overdress, don't underdress - wear clothes appropriate for the interview.
I agree dress like the job you want to have, but I disagree with the t-shirt bit. I've worked at 4 different companies, and always show up wearing professional, clean clothes to my interview (suit and tie the first time, since then just button down shirts and dress pants or khakis).
The t-shirt and jeans can wait until you've proven yourself for a few months. I go to work now in shorts and a t-shirt, so this isn't some sour grapes rant. Though I dress casual for work, given a choice between two identical, impeccably groomed, candidates one who came professionally dressed and one who came in shorts and a t-shirt (and that being the only difference), I would be likely to hire the one who came like he was here to interview.
Of course, I would hire someone casually dressed who knows their stuff over an idiot who happens to be wearing a suit, but I don't think there's any reason to put yourself at a disadvantage. Don't overdress, don't underdress - wear clothes appropriate for the interview.
The t-shirt and jeans can wait until you've proven yourself for a few months.
There's no contradiction between what I said and what you're saying -- we just happen to want different jobs. I don't want a job which has expectations for clothing beyond "yes please".
It's up to the original poster to decide what sort of job he wants and dress appropriately for that -- odds are, the job he wants is one which neither of us would want.
There's no contradiction between what I said and what you're saying -- we just happen to want different jobs. I don't want a job which has expectations for clothing beyond "yes please".
It's up to the original poster to decide what sort of job he wants and dress appropriately for that -- odds are, the job he wants is one which neither of us would want.
I don't want employees that spend all that time fretting over what they wear. I want employees that would look at me funny if I asked them to dress nice. I'd want to see a funny, bewildered, slightly pained look on their face that said "I'm one of the best people at what I do, I'm doing important work, I could work anywhere, each second I waste on this is something that doesn't go into designing the future, and you want me to worry about wearing what?"
Umm, yeah. And if a candidate had spelling mistakes on his resume, would you think "well, I'm hiring him to code, not to write documentation"? Or would you in fact not even bother to interview him at all?
Well a resume conveys useful information, which is important. Dress does not. It's a signal to noise ratio thing.
Incidentally, bad spelling in an otherwise smart person is a good sign of creativity, because it's correlated with personality types that correlate with creative thinking (when intelligence is evidenced at all).
Incidentally, bad spelling in an otherwise smart person is a good sign of creativity, because it's correlated with personality types that correlate with creative thinking (when intelligence is evidenced at all).
Do you have a source for the typo thing? That would be very useful information.
I emailed you info, we're getting too far off topic here.
I don't think I got an email. Subject line?
I am not interested in someone who writes "creative" code that someone else has to debug.
That's not what I mean. You are deliberately taking the worst possible interpretation of what I wrote. No one wants typos in code. But, a programmer who's written english is bad, but who is highly intelligent will probably not evidence the same typos in programming as in typing written english.
It's the same sort of thing as dyslexia being different at a neurological level in chinese then in english. English dyslexics who learn chinese aren't dyslexic in chinese. Likewise, people who are messy in their english might be extremely good at code. People sure like to hang onto conventional wisdom even when there is plenty of scientific evidence to suggest that they are wrong.
It's the same sort of thing as dyslexia being different at a neurological level in chinese then in english. English dyslexics who learn chinese aren't dyslexic in chinese. Likewise, people who are messy in their english might be extremely good at code. People sure like to hang onto conventional wisdom even when there is plenty of scientific evidence to suggest that they are wrong.
OK, every word processor these days can check your spelling for you. You don't even need to do anything; it will underline words it doesn't know by magic. Given that big a shove in the right direction PLUS the manual proof-reading that ought to be done, it is incomprehensible that typos get through. It can only be carelessness. This isn't an IRC conversation; it's a professional document.
Clumsy use of English from someone for whom it isn't their native language is a completely different matter, I don't care about that.
Clumsy use of English from someone for whom it isn't their native language is a completely different matter, I don't care about that.
I agree with the first paragraph and disagree with the last sentence.
For me, it's less about the typing or language skills and more about proving that you can produce a complete work-product. A typo-laden resume indicates to me that you failed to have at least one native speaker of the language review it.
If you have a known weak area (English is not your most fluent language and is also required for the job), I would expect a thorough individual to seek help.
Just like I would expect a rock-star hacker to call tech support or post on open-source forums for help if they have a particularly difficult bug that they aren't making headway with.
For me, it's less about the typing or language skills and more about proving that you can produce a complete work-product. A typo-laden resume indicates to me that you failed to have at least one native speaker of the language review it.
If you have a known weak area (English is not your most fluent language and is also required for the job), I would expect a thorough individual to seek help.
Just like I would expect a rock-star hacker to call tech support or post on open-source forums for help if they have a particularly difficult bug that they aren't making headway with.
References to high school after any time in college is suspect; at the adult stage you should be referencing adult accomplishments and activities.
My company is completely casual, in fact my boss dresses more casually than I do, but I still expect every interview candidate suited and booted - it's no different from expecting no spelling mistakes on their CVs.
As a counter-anecdote, I did a (full-day) software engineering interview in 1998 wearing an old Magic The Gathering t-shirt and jean shorts. I'm not sure what I was thinking except the HR person told me they were pretty casual there-- this was for a really cool development tool company.
Anyway, I went on to be hired and then promoted through dev lead, dev manager, and architect roles at that company.
So, I'm not of the mind that it's something to worry too much about if you're a decent hacker. My more recent interview sessions, I've pretty much always been wearing a suit or at least business casual, but I wouldn't say it's a hard-and-fast rule, especially for a startup and junior position. Still, YMMV.
If a company makes a huge deal about you not being well-dressed then they probably aren't going to be the most flexible company to work for. I know I don't tend to judge candidates specifically by the way they dress, but those who look comfortable in nice clothes do come across more professional.
Anyway, I went on to be hired and then promoted through dev lead, dev manager, and architect roles at that company.
So, I'm not of the mind that it's something to worry too much about if you're a decent hacker. My more recent interview sessions, I've pretty much always been wearing a suit or at least business casual, but I wouldn't say it's a hard-and-fast rule, especially for a startup and junior position. Still, YMMV.
If a company makes a huge deal about you not being well-dressed then they probably aren't going to be the most flexible company to work for. I know I don't tend to judge candidates specifically by the way they dress, but those who look comfortable in nice clothes do come across more professional.
What industry are you in? If you're in banking, sure, but if you're in software I hope you clearly communicate this to interviewees.
More importantly we're in London, England - not the West Coast :-)
There are a lot of ex-City people here, which may be where the expectation comes from, but even so...
There are a lot of ex-City people here, which may be where the expectation comes from, but even so...
> More importantly we're in London, England - not the West Coast :-)
That explains everything.
I had a friend who actually got turned down for a management position for wearing a suit to an interview (they thought he was "too formal" for the job). PayPal, I believe.
I rock the Silicon Valley Casual for interviews-- jeans and an untucked button-down shirt for consulting gigs (and employee-jobs that I already know I want).
If it's a really creamy consulting gig for a large company, I might even make it slacks, semi-dress shoes, and untucked button down. Regrettably I don't have the complexion for khakis, since blue button-down, brown semi-dress shoes and khaki slacks [with cell phone on a belt clip] appears to be the uniform of choice around here large boring companies that think they're casual.
For startup interviews, I will wear a funny t-shirt, often involving pirates.
You will note that I never overdress beyond these levels (for an interview), as the casual dress is part of my filter against stupid, boring companies.
That explains everything.
I had a friend who actually got turned down for a management position for wearing a suit to an interview (they thought he was "too formal" for the job). PayPal, I believe.
I rock the Silicon Valley Casual for interviews-- jeans and an untucked button-down shirt for consulting gigs (and employee-jobs that I already know I want).
If it's a really creamy consulting gig for a large company, I might even make it slacks, semi-dress shoes, and untucked button down. Regrettably I don't have the complexion for khakis, since blue button-down, brown semi-dress shoes and khaki slacks [with cell phone on a belt clip] appears to be the uniform of choice around here large boring companies that think they're casual.
For startup interviews, I will wear a funny t-shirt, often involving pirates.
You will note that I never overdress beyond these levels (for an interview), as the casual dress is part of my filter against stupid, boring companies.
Fact: You lost a ton of excellent employees that way.
[deleted]
There are certainly counterexamples to the "excise high school references". Consider for example one of the NYC magnet high schools such as Bronx Science (or Stuyvesant), which on paper at least have a track record of producing 1 physics Nobel Laureate and 1 Turing award winner each per decade (on average). In such a school, a characterization of where one was on the continuum of creative intelligence can be a pretty strong statement.
(granted most High Schools aren't that magical on paper, so the parent post has a valid point in principle)
(granted most High Schools aren't that magical on paper, so the parent post has a valid point in principle)
I considered adding "unless you went to Stuyvesant, Upper Canada College, or Eton" -- but I'm not convinced that this is useful if you're applying for a high tech job. If you're trying to get into politics, saying "look at how politically well-connected I am" is certainly useful; but if I saw a CV which mentioned attending Eton, my immediate reaction would be to judge the rest of it more harshly -- because I'd be thinking "you had all those advantages, but this is all you've managed to do so far?"
Suits harmful (although only nominally). The suit says, "I mostly interview at places where suits matter".
Cover letters extremely valuable. Cover letter says, "I gave your company 5 minutes of thought before I clicked the button that sent my resume".
Best possible thing you can do prior to an interview? As in, the single best possible thing you can ever do that will raise your chances more than anything else you do? Research the company. Hardcore. Everyone who worked there, everything those people have done, and on and on. Come in knowing everything about them, and armed with a litany of questions.
#1 criteria for hiring: smart, gets things done, competant.
#2 criteria for hiring: committed to working here.
Cover letters extremely valuable. Cover letter says, "I gave your company 5 minutes of thought before I clicked the button that sent my resume".
Best possible thing you can do prior to an interview? As in, the single best possible thing you can ever do that will raise your chances more than anything else you do? Research the company. Hardcore. Everyone who worked there, everything those people have done, and on and on. Come in knowing everything about them, and armed with a litany of questions.
#1 criteria for hiring: smart, gets things done, competant.
#2 criteria for hiring: committed to working here.
It depends. Certainly a suit is never going to be helpful when interviewing at any true technology company, whether it be a startup or not. But the idea that it would hurt is situational: certainly if a mid-career professional walks into an interview in a $500 suit, his/her attire just screams "I've been writing VB code for 10 years in an IT department."
But if it's on a recent graduate, or an amateur trying to break into hacking as a profession, not so much. There, it's just a sign of naivete. It's cute, not dumb. It might be awkward, but at least it shows the candidate cares about the position.
But if it's on a recent graduate, or an amateur trying to break into hacking as a profession, not so much. There, it's just a sign of naivete. It's cute, not dumb. It might be awkward, but at least it shows the candidate cares about the position.
You are never going to get ruled out of a good job for wearing a suit. You can get ruled out of a lot of really crappy jobs for not wearing a suit. So, OK. But you are always safe in business casual. And you can adapt on the fly, untucking your shirt if everyone else is in cutoffs and Birks.
These things depend on location. Where are you? Here's how things work in SV.
Cover letter is exceptionally useful. It should explain in simple English why you are qualified for this particular job, highlighting relevant experience and showing that you actually bothered to figure out what this job/company is about. Doing this well is a huge advantage. At your level 1 out of 100 applicants will do it right. Cover letter should be just natural part of the body of the email and be in plain text. It should not be formal.
Suit with no tie is appropriate if you are interviewing for a job of CEO. Suit with a tie is never appropriate. This is different on east coast.
Cover letter is exceptionally useful. It should explain in simple English why you are qualified for this particular job, highlighting relevant experience and showing that you actually bothered to figure out what this job/company is about. Doing this well is a huge advantage. At your level 1 out of 100 applicants will do it right. Cover letter should be just natural part of the body of the email and be in plain text. It should not be formal.
Suit with no tie is appropriate if you are interviewing for a job of CEO. Suit with a tie is never appropriate. This is different on east coast.
I've always thought for most hackers that the only thing you'll need aside from a shirt and jeans is your brain.
B.Y.O.B.
:)
B.Y.O.B.
:)
I'm in New York, where dress is a bit more formal due to the Wall Street sphere of influence. However, the position I have in mind has nothing to do with finance.
What defines a good and bad cover letter, in your opinion? What mistakes do the writers of the 99 bad cover letters make?
What defines a good and bad cover letter, in your opinion? What mistakes do the writers of the 99 bad cover letters make?
Although I can't say for sure (never hired anyone), I think the notes above about "Relevant experience" really hits it on the nail. Resume's have a lot of info on them, and are often short on details. You should explain to them what you've done that makes you ideal for that specific role. Don't talk about your life dreams, just keep it simple and direct.
On what to wear: Dress smart. If it seems like a fun place, dress a bit fun. In NYC, a nice pair of jeans, with a sharp shirt and jacket would probably be a really appropriate attire. I don't think i'd ever show up for an interview with just a t-shirt on, but i guess it depends.
On what to wear: Dress smart. If it seems like a fun place, dress a bit fun. In NYC, a nice pair of jeans, with a sharp shirt and jacket would probably be a really appropriate attire. I don't think i'd ever show up for an interview with just a t-shirt on, but i guess it depends.
You'd do well to wear a suit to any job interview. Programmer or not, startup or not, walking into an interview in a suit conveys a sense of professionalism. First impressions are hard to change. So start off well.
Also, I'd take the advice of those who who say "Wear sandals and a t-shirt" with a grain of salt - I suspect that the majority of people who give that advice are not (and haven't ever been) in a position to hire.
Also, I'd take the advice of those who who say "Wear sandals and a t-shirt" with a grain of salt - I suspect that the majority of people who give that advice are not (and haven't ever been) in a position to hire.
You're assuming that a suit always provides a good impression. That's not automatic, especially if you're interviewing at a small, casual company that is trying to maintain a specific kind of casual, fun work culture.
Like, say...a startup.
Like, say...a startup.
Work for a startup. Second startup actually, both successful. Wore a suit to both interviews. Results paint a pretty clear picture.
Even companies looking to maintain a casual, fun work culture should appreciate their candidates attempting to present themselves in a professional way. If an interviewer casts someone in a negative light because they wore a suit... I'll go out on a limb and risk getting flamed by saying that this person probably shouldn't be responsible for hiring in the first place.
Even companies looking to maintain a casual, fun work culture should appreciate their candidates attempting to present themselves in a professional way. If an interviewer casts someone in a negative light because they wore a suit... I'll go out on a limb and risk getting flamed by saying that this person probably shouldn't be responsible for hiring in the first place.
We haven't had many people show up in suits to interviews at Justin.tv, but it's a reasonably accurate indicator of failure. I try not to prejudge, but there's only so many times you can see a correlation and not start to stereotype.
I agree. I think a lot of the advice that I see above is: "come as you are, and if they won't take you, you didn't want to work there anyway."
This is wrong. I work for a startup (my third one). I wore a suit to the interview. My now-boss said to me, "We should have told you that you didn't have to wear a tie to the interview. Sorry!". I would have worn the tie anyway.
I have personally hired 16 people since starting work at my current startup. They all dressed professionally for the interview, and subsequently changed into shorts and t-shirts.
The issue is: while the startup is casual dress, I might need to take you with me to pitch Fidelity Investments for the B-round of funding. If I'm taking you with me to my investment bank, you better wear a suit and be comfortable in it.
This is wrong. I work for a startup (my third one). I wore a suit to the interview. My now-boss said to me, "We should have told you that you didn't have to wear a tie to the interview. Sorry!". I would have worn the tie anyway.
I have personally hired 16 people since starting work at my current startup. They all dressed professionally for the interview, and subsequently changed into shorts and t-shirts.
The issue is: while the startup is casual dress, I might need to take you with me to pitch Fidelity Investments for the B-round of funding. If I'm taking you with me to my investment bank, you better wear a suit and be comfortable in it.
As for the suit, you're a developer, not a consultant for What Not to Wear. The real tragedy is when the developer shows up for the interview in his (so-called) nice button up shirt (that has a small gravy stain on the pocket) and polished (yet orthopedic looking) black shoes.
The suit gains you 5 seconds of respect until you open your mouth. Then hopefully you will actually know something.
Do yourself a favor; instead of taking an hour the night before to make sure your shirt is pressed and your socks match get on the web, research the company you are interviewing at, try to assess some of the problems that they may encounter, study up on the languages that they utilize, review your algorithms book, and treat the interview like you're applying for the lead position for the development of an auto-pilot software system for a Boeing 787.
If you know your field and know it well superficialities such as a wrinkled shirt will take a back seat.
The suit gains you 5 seconds of respect until you open your mouth. Then hopefully you will actually know something.
Do yourself a favor; instead of taking an hour the night before to make sure your shirt is pressed and your socks match get on the web, research the company you are interviewing at, try to assess some of the problems that they may encounter, study up on the languages that they utilize, review your algorithms book, and treat the interview like you're applying for the lead position for the development of an auto-pilot software system for a Boeing 787.
If you know your field and know it well superficialities such as a wrinkled shirt will take a back seat.
"I dislike cover letters because they feel extremely artificial."
Then make yours natural. Write like you speak and say what you want to say.
"is this over-the-top or absurd"
A suit is never absurd, except at the beach. When in doubt, overdress. You can always take off your jacket (and tie).
And don't forget the handwritten and sincere Thank You Note.
Then make yours natural. Write like you speak and say what you want to say.
"is this over-the-top or absurd"
A suit is never absurd, except at the beach. When in doubt, overdress. You can always take off your jacket (and tie).
And don't forget the handwritten and sincere Thank You Note.
> And don't forget the handwritten and sincere Thank You Note.
The power of the Thank You note. In your Thank You note, reaffirm your interest and state when you will call them to follow up ("I will call you next Thursday at 10am") and make sure you call at that time! I got this from CollegeGrad.com back in the day and it's a valuable tip. Please do not email something. How much effort does that take? Putting a letter in the mail at least takes putting some clothes on, finding a stamp.
The power of the Thank You note. In your Thank You note, reaffirm your interest and state when you will call them to follow up ("I will call you next Thursday at 10am") and make sure you call at that time! I got this from CollegeGrad.com back in the day and it's a valuable tip. Please do not email something. How much effort does that take? Putting a letter in the mail at least takes putting some clothes on, finding a stamp.
Handwritten thank-you note? I do a lot of interviewing and would find it bizarre and annoying if a candidate sent me something by snail mail. Only a fax would be worse.
I find it bizarre and annoying that you find a handwritten thank-you note bizarre and annoying. Have we gotten so immersed in technology that we've forgotten how nice it is when someone goes out of their way to show a little appreciation? I sure hope not.
Basically, there are two kinds of companies: the ones that do care about dress code, and the ones that don't. The first kind would like you to wear a suit (with a tie). For the second kind: well, since they don't care, you can wear a suit as well! In this way, you can't go wrong (I've never encountered a company requiring people to wear used jeans and Rock band shirts anyway).
Well, unless you get interviewed by this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwYy8R87JMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwYy8R87JMA
I've never interviewed in a suit, and I've been offered every job I've managed to get to the interview stage for. The most I've worn is formal shirt, slacks, nice shoes, and a tie, and that was once for a temp agency (and it was probably too much), another time for an event production company (it was DEFINITELY way too much), and a video game QA company (I could have worn less but it didn't seem to matter).
The event production company was pretty close to being a startup, and it was clear from the moment the door opened and I saw the place and the employees that I was overdressed.
I don't remember what I wore to interview for the video game company I worked for a few years ago, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't too fancy. If I was interviewing for a startup with less than twenty employees, I'd be pretty comfortable showing up in jeans and a collared shirt of some sort.
The event production company was pretty close to being a startup, and it was clear from the moment the door opened and I saw the place and the employees that I was overdressed.
I don't remember what I wore to interview for the video game company I worked for a few years ago, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't too fancy. If I was interviewing for a startup with less than twenty employees, I'd be pretty comfortable showing up in jeans and a collared shirt of some sort.
The rule I typically follow is to go one level of dress beyond whatever the typical dress for the company is. So if it is a startup where people would normally wear geeky black shirts with witty sayings on them, wear jeans and a polo shirt or a dress shirt, or even no-tie business casual at your discretion.
If the dress is normally no-tie business casual, wear business casual with a tie or a suit if that makes you feel comfortable. You definitely don't have to wear a suit for an engineering interview, you can wear a shirt and tie and no jacket.
So I would ask the HR person who scheduled your interview what people/the boss normally wear to work, then go one level higher in dressiness where one level higher is a fluid concept based on your personal comfort level.
If the dress is normally no-tie business casual, wear business casual with a tie or a suit if that makes you feel comfortable. You definitely don't have to wear a suit for an engineering interview, you can wear a shirt and tie and no jacket.
So I would ask the HR person who scheduled your interview what people/the boss normally wear to work, then go one level higher in dressiness where one level higher is a fluid concept based on your personal comfort level.
In the last job I applied for they dismissed a candidate because he showed up in tshirt and jeans.
In a previous job I applied for (electricians helper) they wouldn't hire you if you applied in a suit.
I believe in both jobs business casual was fine. It really depends on the interviewers though.
If I were interviewing you and you weren't wearing business casual I might ask why, but that's me. The reason I would ask why is it will give me insight to your personality, and circumstances. You might be having a tough break, you might enjoy wearing suits, or you might think appearances don't matter.
In a previous job I applied for (electricians helper) they wouldn't hire you if you applied in a suit.
I believe in both jobs business casual was fine. It really depends on the interviewers though.
If I were interviewing you and you weren't wearing business casual I might ask why, but that's me. The reason I would ask why is it will give me insight to your personality, and circumstances. You might be having a tough break, you might enjoy wearing suits, or you might think appearances don't matter.
Your cover letter is your introductory email. (You're not attaching a PDF or anything, are you?) It should be conversational, well-edited, and concise, but should give the reader some reason to continue on to the resume.
As for when to start culling old info from your resume: I think you have the right idea in thinking that you should stick to those points that are directly relevant to the position. Padding your experiences and skills with high school activities may help when you're fresh out of school and have little or no professional background to reference, but if you've had even one full-time job in the industry, drop the kid stuff.
I haven't been on the interviewee side in a while, but from the interviewer POV, I personally like to see that applicants have made an effort to anticipate the office culture and dress appropriately. Seeing someone in a suit + tie when interviewing in a room full of people wearing T-shirts suggests to me that perhaps they aren't great at prediction based on incomplete information, and instead chose to "play it safe." That can be a desirable attribute in some positions, but it doesn't speak well of their ability to empathize.
If you want to find out whether you're going to get dinged for not going formal with your interview attire, do some research. Check the 'About Us' or 'Staff' page on the company website, or check out staff members' blogs and Flickr photos. Maybe on of the senior staff have presented at a conference recently, or podcasts from their office?
As for when to start culling old info from your resume: I think you have the right idea in thinking that you should stick to those points that are directly relevant to the position. Padding your experiences and skills with high school activities may help when you're fresh out of school and have little or no professional background to reference, but if you've had even one full-time job in the industry, drop the kid stuff.
I haven't been on the interviewee side in a while, but from the interviewer POV, I personally like to see that applicants have made an effort to anticipate the office culture and dress appropriately. Seeing someone in a suit + tie when interviewing in a room full of people wearing T-shirts suggests to me that perhaps they aren't great at prediction based on incomplete information, and instead chose to "play it safe." That can be a desirable attribute in some positions, but it doesn't speak well of their ability to empathize.
If you want to find out whether you're going to get dinged for not going formal with your interview attire, do some research. Check the 'About Us' or 'Staff' page on the company website, or check out staff members' blogs and Flickr photos. Maybe on of the senior staff have presented at a conference recently, or podcasts from their office?
Most of the advice here is bad, IMO. It reminds me of the 'build it and they will come-- marketing, messaging, and salesmanship doesn't matter" advice you see from a lot of neophyte product developers.
Find out who you're interviewing with and learn about the company. Founded by a hacker or MBA? Are they casual at work or no? Do they like golf or D&D? A 20 person company should be quite google-able-- learn about your audience. Hell, find an excuse to drop by and look around.
A bit of research and salesmanship isn't a bad thing. You can call something a "steak" or you can call it a "muscle tissue sample from a castrated bull" (apologies to Robert Heinlein) -- which sounds better to you? There are great studies that indicate that the more you look like a person, the more they'll trust you. You don't have to be totally fake, but you can choose wisely within your wardrobe.
In terms of CV and cover letter, again-- do the research. If the reader has an MBA, err on the side of a bit more traditional. If he/she is an anthropology school dropout whose blog is vulgar and fun, be a bit more casual.
And-- what's wrong with asking questions? Call and say, "the places I'm considering positions at run the gamut between casual and formal in terms of attire. What's your company like on that front? If I wear slacks and a dress shirt to the interview, am I going to be the sharpest dressed person in the office?"
Find out who you're interviewing with and learn about the company. Founded by a hacker or MBA? Are they casual at work or no? Do they like golf or D&D? A 20 person company should be quite google-able-- learn about your audience. Hell, find an excuse to drop by and look around.
A bit of research and salesmanship isn't a bad thing. You can call something a "steak" or you can call it a "muscle tissue sample from a castrated bull" (apologies to Robert Heinlein) -- which sounds better to you? There are great studies that indicate that the more you look like a person, the more they'll trust you. You don't have to be totally fake, but you can choose wisely within your wardrobe.
In terms of CV and cover letter, again-- do the research. If the reader has an MBA, err on the side of a bit more traditional. If he/she is an anthropology school dropout whose blog is vulgar and fun, be a bit more casual.
And-- what's wrong with asking questions? Call and say, "the places I'm considering positions at run the gamut between casual and formal in terms of attire. What's your company like on that front? If I wear slacks and a dress shirt to the interview, am I going to be the sharpest dressed person in the office?"
First off, definitely use a cover letter. Don't use your template, write something specifically about why you want this job at this company. Be sincere.
With regards to a suit; here's what I've always done. I suppose it's a little risky, but it's always been fantastic for me.
Call the company you're interviewing, at whatever public number you find. Hopefully you get a receptionist, or at least someone gabby. Tell them that you're coming in for an interview, and you'd really like to dress appropriately - so instead of asking for advice, ask what their boss is wearing that day. If the answer is slacks and a button-up shirt (short-sleeved or not), then you're going to wear a coat and tie for the interview. If the answer is jeans, then you're going to wear slacks, polished shoes and a button up shirt.
You don't have to be shy about this, companies really like to know that you give a shit about what they think. It definitely shows when I'm interviewing with someone who knows why they want to work with us versus someone who just wants a paycheck.
With regards to a suit; here's what I've always done. I suppose it's a little risky, but it's always been fantastic for me.
Call the company you're interviewing, at whatever public number you find. Hopefully you get a receptionist, or at least someone gabby. Tell them that you're coming in for an interview, and you'd really like to dress appropriately - so instead of asking for advice, ask what their boss is wearing that day. If the answer is slacks and a button-up shirt (short-sleeved or not), then you're going to wear a coat and tie for the interview. If the answer is jeans, then you're going to wear slacks, polished shoes and a button up shirt.
You don't have to be shy about this, companies really like to know that you give a shit about what they think. It definitely shows when I'm interviewing with someone who knows why they want to work with us versus someone who just wants a paycheck.
The only universal rule is that there is no universal rule...
Companies, at any stage, are made up of a (semi)random collection of individuals. You can hardly predict their expectations, likes, dislikes, and expectations accurately.
Dress-code wise, I would say dress in whatever YOU feel most comfortable in. When in doubt err on the side of over-dressing, but for almost any "hacker" type role you would never go beyond a sport-coat (possibly with nice jeans and a dress shirt). As someone who has interviewed many people I would say that one thing that seems to negatively affect the dynamics of the interview is when you can tell the person is just not comfortable (and therefore not themself).
Along the lines of not being able to predict how people view your CV, I personally would rather see blank space on a resume instead of blather about what you did in high school or college, which is almost never relevant to what I am interested in. I also personally don't like people who send the followup emails of "It was such a great interview I can totally see myself making a huge contriblahblahblah". Save it, I get enough air-filled emails already, I don't need yours.
Despite what many people might say, there are a LOT of jobs out there. Wear what you want, and handle the process (cover letter, resume, follow-up) however you feel is most appropriate, and iterate rapidly over the feedback (or lack thereof) to adjust your approach.
Personally, I like a brief 2-3 paragraph high-level cover letter that is targeted to the specific job (matches your skills to my requirements) and a resume that is readable and underscores key accomplishments. Dress decent, no matter what position you're interviewing for (if you're at a startup you might have to present to a board or potential customer one day. Having a "nice" set of clothes is a good sign of preparedness, IMO).
Companies, at any stage, are made up of a (semi)random collection of individuals. You can hardly predict their expectations, likes, dislikes, and expectations accurately.
Dress-code wise, I would say dress in whatever YOU feel most comfortable in. When in doubt err on the side of over-dressing, but for almost any "hacker" type role you would never go beyond a sport-coat (possibly with nice jeans and a dress shirt). As someone who has interviewed many people I would say that one thing that seems to negatively affect the dynamics of the interview is when you can tell the person is just not comfortable (and therefore not themself).
Along the lines of not being able to predict how people view your CV, I personally would rather see blank space on a resume instead of blather about what you did in high school or college, which is almost never relevant to what I am interested in. I also personally don't like people who send the followup emails of "It was such a great interview I can totally see myself making a huge contriblahblahblah". Save it, I get enough air-filled emails already, I don't need yours.
Despite what many people might say, there are a LOT of jobs out there. Wear what you want, and handle the process (cover letter, resume, follow-up) however you feel is most appropriate, and iterate rapidly over the feedback (or lack thereof) to adjust your approach.
Personally, I like a brief 2-3 paragraph high-level cover letter that is targeted to the specific job (matches your skills to my requirements) and a resume that is readable and underscores key accomplishments. Dress decent, no matter what position you're interviewing for (if you're at a startup you might have to present to a board or potential customer one day. Having a "nice" set of clothes is a good sign of preparedness, IMO).
Having come up against the dress code issue recently - the standard advice is to make your best guess about the dress code hierarchy and dress one level higher than the job you're applying for.
The covering letter should be seen as the chance to make an argument as to why you're the right person for this specific job. You shouldn't really have a template for your covering letter.
The covering letter should be seen as the chance to make an argument as to why you're the right person for this specific job. You shouldn't really have a template for your covering letter.
I was just hired by a startup and I provided a cover letter along with my resume. In fact it was mentioned to me that my cover letter was part of the reason I was brought in for an interview. Cover letter's don't have to contain all of the regurgitated crap you find on resume help sites. Its a great way to get a lot of the finer points across that your resume simply can't. Be sure that every cover letter (like your resume) is tailored to the particular job and company you are applying to. Nothing looks worse than a cookie cutter cover letter where someone can easily tell you just swapped out the hiring manager's and company's name.
On top of that... I wore a suit to the interview. I was on the fence on wearing it or not, but when in doubt its always better to be over dressed.
On top of that... I wore a suit to the interview. I was on the fence on wearing it or not, but when in doubt its always better to be over dressed.
When you phone them up to arrange an interview time, ask them about the dress code. Problem solved.
I interview a lot of people. When candidates ask me this, they often say "I'm coming from work, and I don't want to over-dress and tip them off that I am interviewing. May I dress casually?"
I never say "no." This is always acceptable to me.
I never say "no." This is always acceptable to me.
dress for your interview one-tier above the formality of dress the company you are applying to wears.
if the company standard is business casual - wear a suit if everyone is in shorts / tshirts - wear slacks and a shirt with a collar
if the company standard is business casual - wear a suit if everyone is in shorts / tshirts - wear slacks and a shirt with a collar
And what if you're applying to Morgan Stanley or something? Do you wear a tux? A Pope outfit?
In a discussion with an older lawyer, I was told that dressing well demonstrates your respect for the people you are meeting with. I personally feel that things have become more complicated as dress, in general, has become more casual but I'm not certain where the line lies between dressing down and disrespect.
I've always worn a suit to interviews in the Midwest and East Coast. Once in New York (at a startup) I was told after being hired that they were concerned that I might be too stiff and strait-laced because of the suit. I did get the job, however, and I would still wear a suit interviewing there.
On the West Coast, I might go with a suit for big companies, but I'd go button down and khakis for a small company or a startup. It's a different culture. Even the better restaurants rarely require formal attire, and I feel like a suit at some interviews would show an inability to grasp the cultural differences.
I've always worn a suit to interviews in the Midwest and East Coast. Once in New York (at a startup) I was told after being hired that they were concerned that I might be too stiff and strait-laced because of the suit. I did get the job, however, and I would still wear a suit interviewing there.
On the West Coast, I might go with a suit for big companies, but I'd go button down and khakis for a small company or a startup. It's a different culture. Even the better restaurants rarely require formal attire, and I feel like a suit at some interviews would show an inability to grasp the cultural differences.
I've done a fair amount of hiring at startups. The main thing I looked for was years of experience and previous job title. I never cared what the person wore, as long as it was appropriate. A cover letter was nice, but I didn't use it as a filter...I was more concerned with the information contained in the cover letter than whether or not it was there.
The biggest thing is to give people information about you. The math contest thing would stand out because it's unique and somewhat interesting, but it wouldn't be particularly important for any of the positions I hired for. I was far more impressed by previous job titles (ie, "Intern, Google Inc") than I was any of the extracurricular stuff.
If you don't have any previous experience, the most important things are an impressive GPA (3.8+) or some kind of impressive course work, such as an artificial intelligence project or ideally a startup of your own.
The biggest thing is to give people information about you. The math contest thing would stand out because it's unique and somewhat interesting, but it wouldn't be particularly important for any of the positions I hired for. I was far more impressed by previous job titles (ie, "Intern, Google Inc") than I was any of the extracurricular stuff.
If you don't have any previous experience, the most important things are an impressive GPA (3.8+) or some kind of impressive course work, such as an artificial intelligence project or ideally a startup of your own.
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I've interviewed people a bit. While I might wear jeans and t-shirts to work, if an interviewee does not have the decency to dress smartly (maybe not a suit, but at least business casual) for an interview, here is the question that would come to mind. If this job isn't important enough to this person to at least look professional, how important is it going to be after the person starts?
So dress smartly. Most companies I've been to let you know that they don't require suits if that is the case, but don't go below business casual.
As for cover letters, throw out the template. Every job is different and there has to be a reason you're interested. Right that down and do it honestly. If you feel you have to just cause you have to, chances are that it isn't worth it.
So dress smartly. Most companies I've been to let you know that they don't require suits if that is the case, but don't go below business casual.
As for cover letters, throw out the template. Every job is different and there has to be a reason you're interested. Right that down and do it honestly. If you feel you have to just cause you have to, chances are that it isn't worth it.
The clothing is just a facade, what really counts is how you act. As such, going fully suited is the best policy, but feel free to customize it a bit.. a slightly informal tie, a quirky jacket, perhaps. You need to look like you've made an effort.
Once you're in and they get a good first impression, then lead with your personality. If you're an interesting person but you don't get the job because you're dressed too formally, you clearly didn't use your personality.. because while first impressions can be made by dress, the impression made ten minutes into an interview should have been driven 99% by the PERSONALITY of the interviewee.
Use the suit to get the first impression, use your personality for the rest.
Once you're in and they get a good first impression, then lead with your personality. If you're an interesting person but you don't get the job because you're dressed too formally, you clearly didn't use your personality.. because while first impressions can be made by dress, the impression made ten minutes into an interview should have been driven 99% by the PERSONALITY of the interviewee.
Use the suit to get the first impression, use your personality for the rest.
At a startup I worked for they almost dismissed a candidate because he showed up in a suit for an interview. It apparently showed that he didn't understand the kind of company he was interviewing for. So it really depends on the culture of the company.
It depends on you. Wear what you feel the most confortable with. If you are genuinely interested in working in that company and you have a nice CV, it doesn't matter if you turn up in a suit or not. You are not yet working for them, so you don't have to obey their rules. But you must fit into that image. Don't forget that you are evaluating them as well.
I never wear a suit when interviewing (jeans, tshirt) and at a career day at one of the larger consulting companies, I was the first to get the job. But they said I would be obliged to wear a suit when I would work for them, as I would travel often to clients, which is a fair deal, as everybody else does.
I never wear a suit when interviewing (jeans, tshirt) and at a career day at one of the larger consulting companies, I was the first to get the job. But they said I would be obliged to wear a suit when I would work for them, as I would travel often to clients, which is a fair deal, as everybody else does.
My company is somewhat larger and older than your target, but probably still similar. When deciding who to interview I don't even read the cover letter (if any). Instead I just skim through the resume and if the candidate seems to have some sort of reasonable software development background then I'll arrange a phone screening interview. The phone screen is where I make the decision about who to bring in for a real interview. If the candidate turns out to be completely unqualified then I can cut it off after a few minutes, no great loss.
As far attire, it's also irrelevant to me. Just don't show up in anything wildly inappropriate.
As far attire, it's also irrelevant to me. Just don't show up in anything wildly inappropriate.
I interviewed for my current position at a startup with a tie and I don't think it detrimentally affected me whatsoever.
That said, a polite, to the point email is awesome. A collared shirt is all you need for an interview, although we hire people who turn up in t-shirt and shorts.
I'd try to get a vibe from the people you speak with there. Also ask yourself if you want to work somewhere they expect a suit...
That said, a polite, to the point email is awesome. A collared shirt is all you need for an interview, although we hire people who turn up in t-shirt and shorts.
I'd try to get a vibe from the people you speak with there. Also ask yourself if you want to work somewhere they expect a suit...
A cover letter that's actually responsive to the position/company is a giant win. But also, a polite email with that same info counts as a "cover letter". ("Cover letter" describes the role it plays introducing you, not the formalities of delivery/medium.)
At any startup I would want to work for wearing a suit would at best be neutral.
Save the suit for weddings and funerals.
I guess it depends on the job, but I can't stand people in suits. It's so obsolete now. That kind of tired attention to surface conformity only encourages the same old thinking that is responsible for everything sucking. Wear what is comfortable and looks decent. The sooner the puritanical idea that you have to dress yourself in that ridiculous, uncomfortable costume and prance around like some peacock samurai in full ceremonial garb to be a serious job applicant dies, the better off we will all be.
Don't view the cover letter as artifical. View it as the HR guy will spend two minutes looking at it while waiting for his internet porn to download. What do you have to say about yourself that is so compelling he'll not notice when two minutes pas and his porn finished downloading because he's still looking at your resume. I'll give you a hint, it's not that you wake up early.
Don't view the cover letter as artifical. View it as the HR guy will spend two minutes looking at it while waiting for his internet porn to download. What do you have to say about yourself that is so compelling he'll not notice when two minutes pas and his porn finished downloading because he's still looking at your resume. I'll give you a hint, it's not that you wake up early.
You can't stand people in suits? Why do you even care?
Let actions speak rather than clothes. I've known programmers who wore fastidiously cut suits and programmers who wore birks and cutoffs. Both clothing classifications produced fast, capable, flexible programmers who could think on their feet, and both classes also produced morons who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag.
Look beyond the surface and you will end up hiring a much higher quality programmer.
Let actions speak rather than clothes. I've known programmers who wore fastidiously cut suits and programmers who wore birks and cutoffs. Both clothing classifications produced fast, capable, flexible programmers who could think on their feet, and both classes also produced morons who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag.
Look beyond the surface and you will end up hiring a much higher quality programmer.
You are right, I was wrong. I was overly rhetorical.
If you like to wear suits, by all means. Sometimes a really nice button down shirt and nice pants feels good.
What really gets me is mandatory dress codes that don't have anything to do with the work getting done, and the outdated thinking that wearing nice clothes means anything. If that's how you are comfortable, please.
If you like to wear suits, by all means. Sometimes a really nice button down shirt and nice pants feels good.
What really gets me is mandatory dress codes that don't have anything to do with the work getting done, and the outdated thinking that wearing nice clothes means anything. If that's how you are comfortable, please.
Also, is it a good idea to wear a suit for a startup interview, or is this over-the-top or absurd? I'm afraid that overdressing might make it appear like I don't know how to interview for startups or, worse yet, type-cast me as similar to the species of douchebag college kid that generally applies for I-banking positions.
If it's not necessary to use cover letters and wear suits for startups, the next question is: where does one draw the line? How does one determine in advance whether or not an interview necessitates a suit?