Ask HN: Prisoners Not Allowed to Study Programming?
13 comments
I think you have the situation wrong.
Federal bureau of prisons will not let you mail books on any subject to inmates unless directly from the publisher. Did you buy the books new from Amazon shipped direct? That’s pretty much the only way they get the books.
Imagine the number of steel files tucked in the spines or hollowed-out pages, and LSD-soaked paper they’d have to deal with.
Federal bureau of prisons will not let you mail books on any subject to inmates unless directly from the publisher. Did you buy the books new from Amazon shipped direct? That’s pretty much the only way they get the books.
Imagine the number of steel files tucked in the spines or hollowed-out pages, and LSD-soaked paper they’d have to deal with.
> Federal bureau of prisons will not let you mail books on any subject to inmates unless directly from the publisher.
That's not precisely true. BOP allows softcover books at minimum and low security facilities from any source, but hardcover books or any books at medium and higher security facilities must be shipped directly from “the publisher, from a book club, or from a bookstore.” (And exceptions can be made, though it requires a special request, if the book is no longer available from those sources.) But shipping from Amazon direct, as was reported elsewhere in the thread to be the case here, would seem to be okay.
Software engineering would not categorically seem to fall into any of the explicitly listed (but expressly not exhaustive) problem categories (unless you perversely misread “written in code”, which seems clearly intended to refer to encyphered/encrypted content), but the threat to order justification is fairly elastic (though a warden’s decision on this can be appealed by the inmate or an independent review may be requested by the sender or publisher.)
https://www.bop.gov/policy/progstat/5266_011.pdf
That's not precisely true. BOP allows softcover books at minimum and low security facilities from any source, but hardcover books or any books at medium and higher security facilities must be shipped directly from “the publisher, from a book club, or from a bookstore.” (And exceptions can be made, though it requires a special request, if the book is no longer available from those sources.) But shipping from Amazon direct, as was reported elsewhere in the thread to be the case here, would seem to be okay.
Software engineering would not categorically seem to fall into any of the explicitly listed (but expressly not exhaustive) problem categories (unless you perversely misread “written in code”, which seems clearly intended to refer to encyphered/encrypted content), but the threat to order justification is fairly elastic (though a warden’s decision on this can be appealed by the inmate or an independent review may be requested by the sender or publisher.)
https://www.bop.gov/policy/progstat/5266_011.pdf
Every prison mailroom is different, I usually just ignore what the bop or state website claims and phone the prison mailroom directly to ask. In general, all books must come from a store/publisher, and have an invoice. I use Books A Million for prison deliveries because they always include an invoice and Amazon often doesn't.
Anybody wondering some good books for prison are the Little Schemer series of books, since they can be done with pencil & paper. The Schemer's Guide is another pencil & paper boook if you can find it. Kernighan also has a good book for this but it contains a chapter on cryptography which some prisons may not allow but I haven't had any problems yet "Understanding the Digital World: What You Need to Know about Computers, the Internet, Privacy, and Security" or get the older paperback version "D is for Digital". They give an intro to programming. Code by Charles Petzold, a really good intro book, may not get in either just because of the title.
Anybody wondering some good books for prison are the Little Schemer series of books, since they can be done with pencil & paper. The Schemer's Guide is another pencil & paper boook if you can find it. Kernighan also has a good book for this but it contains a chapter on cryptography which some prisons may not allow but I haven't had any problems yet "Understanding the Digital World: What You Need to Know about Computers, the Internet, Privacy, and Security" or get the older paperback version "D is for Digital". They give an intro to programming. Code by Charles Petzold, a really good intro book, may not get in either just because of the title.
It's fentanyl-derivative soaked paper they are worrying about these days.
I teach a programming course at my local jail, so there are institutions that allow it. In my experience, the jail prefers if the books come straight from Amazon or other known companies, so you might want to try that.
This would be a wonderful topic for a blog post or article, if you’re ever interested!
Feel free to email me! I am happy to answer any questions.
could you send me your contact info, or more about this program? I'd like to learn more.
My email is [email protected], I'd love to talk about it!
It was sent direct from amazon, so that isn't the issue.
> Should this policy be changed?
The policy you have inferred from this single rejection does not appear to formally exist, so asking if it should be changed may be premature.
The policy you have inferred from this single rejection does not appear to formally exist, so asking if it should be changed may be premature.
I would have amazon send the books again, or another title on the same subject. Chances are some new B.O.P. employee was heavy handed based on an ignorant assumption.
> Chances are some new B.O.P. employee was heavy handed based on an ignorant assumption.
“Only the Warden may reject an incoming publication. In the Warden's absence, only the Acting Warden may perform this function.”
https://www.bop.gov/policy/progstat/5266_011.pdf (p. 3)
“Only the Warden may reject an incoming publication. In the Warden's absence, only the Acting Warden may perform this function.”
https://www.bop.gov/policy/progstat/5266_011.pdf (p. 3)
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Seems obvious everyone here will agree with you. Question is how to create the change needed.
yeah, I'm hoping for some recommendations, maybe should have indicated that.
If you believe prison is for "punishment" and that prisoners are "fundamentally bad" then the answer is no - don't let them do anything that could improve their lives. However, if you believe prison is for "rehabilitation" and that "people can change" then exposure to current tech, within reason, would be good thing. I vote for the latter, mainly because almost everyone who goes in comes out.
And now for the off-the-rails part of my answer... maybe we could limit prisoners to outdated technology - they might end up with decent jobs maintaining old mainframes or Cobol or Fortran - somebody is going to have to do it and a lot of the old school guys are retiring.
And now for the off-the-rails part of my answer... maybe we could limit prisoners to outdated technology - they might end up with decent jobs maintaining old mainframes or Cobol or Fortran - somebody is going to have to do it and a lot of the old school guys are retiring.
That was actually kind of my thinking. There's a huge demand for these technologies at lower salaries than your tech hot spots, so most younger talent won't be interested in learning. Yet a 60K a year job would be AMAZING to the average felon.
Uh, this is unrealistic. I came out of prison with programming knowledge and not a single company would consider me because of my record. Its why I have a shed manufacturing business now.
I think a program like this would have to work to build relationships with organizations, and it would be an uphill battle.
Perhaps focusing on very specific skills, like test coverage and documentation would be more amenable to an organization than DB Admin.
Perhaps focusing on very specific skills, like test coverage and documentation would be more amenable to an organization than DB Admin.
Its a security risk. Allowing a felon access to the company network is irresponsible.
First off, that sucks for your friend. I would hope they would be able to learn programming. I think the policy should be changed, but I'm also not even sure if it's a policy, or if different prisons get to make those decisions.
I think one of the logistical issues is I'm not sure prisoners have great internet access, in terms of either time, size of things downloaded, or having a persistent space to store their own data, if it's on a public computer. I'm not sure for example if they are allowed a laptop in their cell, or something like that. Probably not?
Makes me wonder if there's a way to compile resources on a USB drive that would have the software required, and the books / knowledge, without necessarily accessing the internet, and a place to store files on. Kind of like a class on a stick.
I think one of the logistical issues is I'm not sure prisoners have great internet access, in terms of either time, size of things downloaded, or having a persistent space to store their own data, if it's on a public computer. I'm not sure for example if they are allowed a laptop in their cell, or something like that. Probably not?
Makes me wonder if there's a way to compile resources on a USB drive that would have the software required, and the books / knowledge, without necessarily accessing the internet, and a place to store files on. Kind of like a class on a stick.
Most prison systems will not give the inmate access to a computer to write code, and definitely will not let them keep a USB drive, etc. The books you'd want to send would need to be those that could be followed without access to a computer. (A friend I sent Hartl's Rails tutorial in print was frustrated by errors in the print version that weren't in the online version)
yeah, almost no internet access other than a very constrained mail client (think aol instant messenger but with captcha and 4 hour delays) that can be accessed in the library on a single computer. Also, this doesn't allow access to the START button or anything like that. I'm guessing it's an old windows desktop that they've setup so it can only access this one website. I'm sure a clever engineer could get around this but like, is that really what they're afraid of?? It's not like the inmates don't have visits and phone calls, in addition to the actual email client, to send their "Coded Messages" or whatever, so it's overly cautious IMHO.
but I digress... There's no capability for this currently but I think an education program could be instituted where they are given unix computers with no internet access and can learn basic command line, or perhaps ubuntu with a browser and no wifi card so they can learn to locally develop websites.
but I digress... There's no capability for this currently but I think an education program could be instituted where they are given unix computers with no internet access and can learn basic command line, or perhaps ubuntu with a browser and no wifi card so they can learn to locally develop websites.
The stereotype of SW engineers is that we are asocial, as in socially inept, but antisocial (as in breaking the rules of society) AFAIK we are not, if anything the stereotype is the opposite, we are seen as tranquil calm persons (even shy) respecting the laws around us.
Software engineers aren't thugs, you're right that they're often soft-spoken and polite -- but they also do not have a history of respecting tradition and laws they view burdensome.
For example, look at the startups, Uber and AirBnb started by explicitly violating laws. Uber has even demonstrated, again and again, contempt for the law.
Then look at the founder-types: Thiel, Gates, Zuckerberg, Jobs, Ellison, etc... They're often anti-social and on the asperger's spectrum. They disregard convention. Violate laws as need be. And can be ruthlessly individualistic/libertarian. Read Thiel's book "Zero to One" or watch the documentary "all watched over by machines of loving grace" for more on this topic.
Look at the stories and discussions posted on this site -- they're often against the grain. There seems to be a keen interest in drugs: psychedelics, MDMA, Ketamine ("as a treatment for depression"), and nootropics ("productivity!"). The libertarians here relish in cryptocurrencies. And there's a prevailing anti-union, anti-socialist, and even anti-SJW attitude: the population here seems to be bright, if isolated, individualistic and perhaps mildly autistic males.
Paul Graham's essays aren't conventional. And other leaders in this domain, such as Naval Ravikant, rail against the "overton window".
For example, look at the startups, Uber and AirBnb started by explicitly violating laws. Uber has even demonstrated, again and again, contempt for the law.
Then look at the founder-types: Thiel, Gates, Zuckerberg, Jobs, Ellison, etc... They're often anti-social and on the asperger's spectrum. They disregard convention. Violate laws as need be. And can be ruthlessly individualistic/libertarian. Read Thiel's book "Zero to One" or watch the documentary "all watched over by machines of loving grace" for more on this topic.
Look at the stories and discussions posted on this site -- they're often against the grain. There seems to be a keen interest in drugs: psychedelics, MDMA, Ketamine ("as a treatment for depression"), and nootropics ("productivity!"). The libertarians here relish in cryptocurrencies. And there's a prevailing anti-union, anti-socialist, and even anti-SJW attitude: the population here seems to be bright, if isolated, individualistic and perhaps mildly autistic males.
Paul Graham's essays aren't conventional. And other leaders in this domain, such as Naval Ravikant, rail against the "overton window".
Uber etc is not so much software engineers breaking laws as enterpreneurs and managers doing that.
Also, people are too quick to see autism where mere arrogance would be sufficent to explain the same behavior.
Yet also, Zuckerberg did not worked as engineer for long. These are all primary managers with some engineering background rather then engineers earning money from being engineers.
Also, people are too quick to see autism where mere arrogance would be sufficent to explain the same behavior.
Yet also, Zuckerberg did not worked as engineer for long. These are all primary managers with some engineering background rather then engineers earning money from being engineers.
I'm pointing out a curious trait of the tech industry as a whole -- the ethos of the community.
Whether or not the names listed currently work as software engineers, or whether or not they all have autism, is inconsequential.
Whether or not the names listed currently work as software engineers, or whether or not they all have autism, is inconsequential.
You said:
> Thiel, Gates, Zuckerberg, Jobs, Ellison, etc... They're often anti-social and on the asperger's spectrum.
So yes, it does matter whether they are autistic or not.
> Software engineers aren't thugs, you're right that they're often soft-spoken and polite -- but they also do not have a history of respecting tradition and laws they view burdensome.
You are talking about software engineers in general, so it does matter whether people you have in mind are software engeneers or good representants of average software engineer.
> I'm pointing out a curious trait of the tech industry as a whole -- the ethos of the community.
What community? HN and startup crowd represents very specific subset of the industry. Business and management represents business and management, not sofware engineers.
So yes, it does matter whether they are autistic or not.
> Software engineers aren't thugs, you're right that they're often soft-spoken and polite -- but they also do not have a history of respecting tradition and laws they view burdensome.
You are talking about software engineers in general, so it does matter whether people you have in mind are software engeneers or good representants of average software engineer.
> I'm pointing out a curious trait of the tech industry as a whole -- the ethos of the community.
What community? HN and startup crowd represents very specific subset of the industry. Business and management represents business and management, not sofware engineers.
Written language works a little different than programming: the references can be a little looser, a little more imprecise -- particularly if the vehicle is a written comment on a message board.
I was attempting to quickly outline an attitude, and orientation, that affects the tech industry as a whole. This attitude is not limited to currently employed software engineers, founders of tech companies, or people with accounts on Hacker News. And no, this attitude is not so pervasive that it affects everyone in the tech industry. But yes, this attitude is probably more common amongst software engineers than say people in marketing within the same industry.
My observation isn't even novel: we can find echoes of it all over as I briefly tried to point out.
I was attempting to quickly outline an attitude, and orientation, that affects the tech industry as a whole. This attitude is not limited to currently employed software engineers, founders of tech companies, or people with accounts on Hacker News. And no, this attitude is not so pervasive that it affects everyone in the tech industry. But yes, this attitude is probably more common amongst software engineers than say people in marketing within the same industry.
My observation isn't even novel: we can find echoes of it all over as I briefly tried to point out.
This has nothing to do with language vs programming. This is about your want to use loose definitions so that you can generalize non engineers behavior and combine them with engineers stereotypes so that you can blame engineers for actions of non engineers in same industry you dislike.
So you had used language to build image of autistic charismatic rule breaker. So I will add that you don't know what autism is and interacted with such person enough to know.
You still did not managed to cite a single engineer. You did not even demostrated knowledge of engineering culture beyond what is found on few cool sites frequented by ... enterpreneurs and many non engineers.
Afaik, if you claim that marketing is more orderly and more rules following and engineers, you should have used an example of typical marketing person action and typical engineer action. For some reason, you went with high management and enterpreneurs.
So you had used language to build image of autistic charismatic rule breaker. So I will add that you don't know what autism is and interacted with such person enough to know.
You still did not managed to cite a single engineer. You did not even demostrated knowledge of engineering culture beyond what is found on few cool sites frequented by ... enterpreneurs and many non engineers.
Afaik, if you claim that marketing is more orderly and more rules following and engineers, you should have used an example of typical marketing person action and typical engineer action. For some reason, you went with high management and enterpreneurs.
>Should this policy be changed?
Absolutely. But I have a question, is this US specific, or could we expect every prisoner around the world not be able to learn programming?
Absolutely. But I have a question, is this US specific, or could we expect every prisoner around the world not be able to learn programming?
I think it's prison to prison.
I have sent friends who were incarcerated (Texas prison system) programming books; I haven't had the same experience. With most issues in the prison, there's a lot of subjective judgment, often by lower paid employees without much training or experience. Your best bet is to contact the prison's office and ask to discuss the issue with someone at the major or warden level.
That sounds like a good avenue, promote it as learning a skill to get a job and re-integrate. Maybe also explain that it takes a fair bit of effort and study to master so it would focus the prisoner's time on something productive.
In my CS major, continuous math, discrete math, graph theory, probability and statistics, linear algebra etc. were prerequisites to other courses. So see if those books are blocked as a "threat to order".
If those get through and he reads through them, try sending things like "An Introduction to Formal Languages and Automata", "A First Course in Combinatorial Optimization" and this sort of thing.
There are also prison reform groups like FAMM that you can talk to.
If those get through and he reads through them, try sending things like "An Introduction to Formal Languages and Automata", "A First Course in Combinatorial Optimization" and this sort of thing.
There are also prison reform groups like FAMM that you can talk to.
Considering that software engineering is the perfect job for an antisocial person, I feel this is a huge mistake by the prison system. If someone has the aptitude for software engineering, this should be encouraged as a path to reintegration with society.
I was wondering what other people's thoughts were on this, do you think an introduction to Ruby On Rails, PHP or JQuery is dangerous to teach an inmate? Should this policy be changed?