Just a few drinks can change how memories are formed(news.brown.edu)
news.brown.edu
Just a few drinks can change how memories are formed
https://news.brown.edu/articles/2018/10/alcohol
18 comments
I know everyone is recommending the book Why We Sleep, but I'll pile on and say that I found it to be a fantastic read, and the consequences of alcohol consumption are devastating. Stats like 40+% reduction in retained information from just a few drinks the night after learning new facts. Or the night BEFORE learning new facts. And how the ill consequences occur even if you abstain for several DAYS after learning new facts, then have several drinks 3 days later.
It's this kind of thing... Trying not to sound preachy, but it just doesn't make sense that people, especially people who work with their brain, drink alcohol 'because it's fun'. Sorry, but that is stupid. No better way to put it. You have an incredibly complex and sensitive instrument, and you choose to bang it around a bit because it causes a funny effect. What more can you really say. There are loads of ways to have fun in life, alcohol is not necessary. Sorry for the blunt truth.
In this thread you have the sole mention of Why We Sleep. what are you referring to?
This article points to some sources, looks like the same ones referred to in 'Why We Sleep': https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/12/even-smal...
Studies cited: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12683478 https://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2353
Studies cited: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12683478 https://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2353
It is one of the most recommended books in book recommendation threads.
I've seen it mentioned in a dozen threads here since I ordered it (on an HN recommendation) a month ago.
That's interesting.. I wasn't aware this was studied. I stopped drinking years ago because I noticed that alcohol reduced the amount of code I could hold in my head, even up to a week later.
How much code do you hold in your head?
I don't think there's a good answer to this... it varies depending on the language, familiarity of the codebase, complexity, novelty/difficulty of the problem/solution, how repetitive the code is, etc. So I don't think comparisons can be made between people, even if they're looking at the same code base (since what is difficult for me, may be easy for you, and therefore easier for you to comprehend and remember... but if we look at another codebase, the opposite may be true.)
Honest question -
Do most adults need to retain new information very often?(excluding the typical HN audience who are constantly learning/innovating/reading/etc)
Do most adults need to retain new information very often?(excluding the typical HN audience who are constantly learning/innovating/reading/etc)
I would posit that enough adults drink often enough that society is generally structured to allow people to function with whatever impairment occasional drinking creates, since that would be the baseline capability for the average person.
That doesn't mean you couldn't benefit from doing better than that, though.
That doesn't mean you couldn't benefit from doing better than that, though.
And yet I don't see myself surrounded by highly successful ascets. Maybe the typical winners are those who by chance happen to be somewhat immune to the negatives than others while still cashing in on the positives (see ajcodez post)?
I do wonder occasionally who a parallel universe abstinent-me would be today. Would I have retained that deep focus excitability I had as a young teen? From a personal perspective it's difficult if not impossible to tell the effects of drinking years from the effects of years.
I do wonder occasionally who a parallel universe abstinent-me would be today. Would I have retained that deep focus excitability I had as a young teen? From a personal perspective it's difficult if not impossible to tell the effects of drinking years from the effects of years.
I think you're right that there probably is some variance among individuals in that some are more negatively impacted than others.
I think also "success" depends not only on individual performance, but also social connections. You can only get so far working on your own. At some point you need to be able to get along with other people, and alcohol does facilitate that to some extent.
I think also "success" depends not only on individual performance, but also social connections. You can only get so far working on your own. At some point you need to be able to get along with other people, and alcohol does facilitate that to some extent.
Interesting question - continued learning is directly linked to statically better cognitive function and fewer brain disorders in elderly people, but that doesn't necessarily mean that learning as an adult is important for operating effectively in society. So, I guess that would mean that it's not really necessary to retain new information at a certain point in your life. As long as you can still access information that you've already obtained (which I believe alcohol exposure over a prolonged time can affect)
Honestly there’s stuff I’ve done when I was drunk that I would rather not remember.
Another question - do you benefit more from social ties formed while drinking or preservation of memory and early mornings?
Understated. That’s the most important part of events that include alcohol: a good part of society is built around alcohol-as-a-socialisation-tool, and that may advance yout career and sentimental life, even though alcohol itself is counterproductive to this effect.
I suppose this could extend to all kinds of things -- remembering to pay a bill, remembering appointments, peoples' names, project tasks, directions to new places, social obligations, where you parked your car, etc. But of course it's more relevant to things that need to be committed to long term memory, and I'm not familiar enough with how the brain works to opine on whether recurring things (bill payments) would be impacted.
What makes you think most people don't need to learn or innovate constantly and why is HN in particular an exception?
I somehow remember most of my good memories when I was drunk and buzzed. On those few occasions that I had passed out completely, I remember the time till I passed out, like the time I just barely reaching my hotel door, opened and collapsed on the floor.
On the most strenuous hikes or endurance activities that I have undertaken, I have vivid memories of the struggle, like I can remember feeling so thirsty and walking for most of the last 5K. I also remember how foolish was I to play an 18 hole the next day, without using a buggy (talk about male ego). By the time I reached the 18th hole I was about to pass out and collapse.
Nowadays I stay away from alcohol and just restrict myself to a single beer or a glass of wine. It takes me 4-5 pints to get buzzed and leaves me with a terrible headache later. Not a good sign.
On the most strenuous hikes or endurance activities that I have undertaken, I have vivid memories of the struggle, like I can remember feeling so thirsty and walking for most of the last 5K. I also remember how foolish was I to play an 18 hole the next day, without using a buggy (talk about male ego). By the time I reached the 18th hole I was about to pass out and collapse.
Nowadays I stay away from alcohol and just restrict myself to a single beer or a glass of wine. It takes me 4-5 pints to get buzzed and leaves me with a terrible headache later. Not a good sign.
How do you know you remembered everything? Obviously you don’t remember what you don’t remember.
One aspect which is often not considered with alcohol is that it’s one of the few drugs where you’re not just taking it to experience its affect – to get drunk. There are so many fantastically variable tastes and mouth feels with drinks that for many the majority of the pleasure is actually in consuming them. Wines & beers are a pleasure to drink and can go extremely well with food, often adding another layer to the enjoyment of the meal. Sipping spirits and cocktails can be a fantastic sensory experience, there is a whole world of flavours to explore and enjoy.
The getting tipsy / drunk part is, of course, part of it and some people do go too far. It also has a lot of other problems but don’t lose sight that there is so much more to it than just getting drunk.
The getting tipsy / drunk part is, of course, part of it and some people do go too far. It also has a lot of other problems but don’t lose sight that there is so much more to it than just getting drunk.
I was gonna make a sarcastic remark about how O'Douls and other NA beer must be booming business if alcohol wasn't the main attraction...
https://www.brewbound.com/news/brewers-large-and-small-take-...
Joke's on me eh?
https://www.brewbound.com/news/brewers-large-and-small-take-...
Joke's on me eh?
There is now quite a range of low/zero alcohol beers and they are getting more drinkable. Some of them can be fairly nice is small quantities but they all lack the depth of a good beer. I had an interesting one brewed with Kombucha recently, that was quite an interesting drink but still not as good as a real beer can be. Erdinger Alkoholfrei wheat beer is pretty good. https://wisebartender.co.uk/ has a really good range.
All the non alcoholic wines I’ve tried have been pretty bad, more like a sweet vermouth. Can be made drinkable with some tonic water.
There is also a boom in distilled non alcoholic 'spirits' which can be OK. Again they don't have the depths of a spirit and tend to be quite light with wither floral or spicy notes. They are also expensive, Seedlip is one of the better ones but at £26 a bottle it's comparable to a decent quality spirit.
It's great that there has been so much development but they're still quite different drinks.
All the non alcoholic wines I’ve tried have been pretty bad, more like a sweet vermouth. Can be made drinkable with some tonic water.
There is also a boom in distilled non alcoholic 'spirits' which can be OK. Again they don't have the depths of a spirit and tend to be quite light with wither floral or spicy notes. They are also expensive, Seedlip is one of the better ones but at £26 a bottle it's comparable to a decent quality spirit.
It's great that there has been so much development but they're still quite different drinks.
People say the same about cofffe. Although I suspect 8 out of 10 times people just want the caffeine hit and should ingest via pill instead.
Yeah, I feel like it's a justification more than anything. I feel like people become prudes because they want something more to their desire for more alcohol/caffeine instead of the other way around.
For example, there are plenty of non-alcoholic, non-caffeinated beverages, but few with as much subtle variety as alcoholic/caffeinated beverages. For example:
- kefir - kombucha (though it's pretty trendy these days) - probiotic drinks
Each of those has some variety, but I can find far more variety in pretty much any category of spirits (beer, wine, cider, hard liquor, etc) and caffeinated drinks (coffee, tea). I can find maybe a dozen varieties of the above, whereas I can find at least a dozen subcategories of wine or coffee, with tons of variation within each subcategory.
I have a hard time believing that the main attraction for coffee and alcohol connoisseurs is taste/texture/etc and not the drug inside the beverage. In other words, if the drug had no effect on humans, would there be a similar level of interest?
For example, there are plenty of non-alcoholic, non-caffeinated beverages, but few with as much subtle variety as alcoholic/caffeinated beverages. For example:
- kefir - kombucha (though it's pretty trendy these days) - probiotic drinks
Each of those has some variety, but I can find far more variety in pretty much any category of spirits (beer, wine, cider, hard liquor, etc) and caffeinated drinks (coffee, tea). I can find maybe a dozen varieties of the above, whereas I can find at least a dozen subcategories of wine or coffee, with tons of variation within each subcategory.
I have a hard time believing that the main attraction for coffee and alcohol connoisseurs is taste/texture/etc and not the drug inside the beverage. In other words, if the drug had no effect on humans, would there be a similar level of interest?
Ever since practicing mindfulness and become more aware of my emotional state, drinking alcohol has become a nonstarter for me. It took a while for me to truly connect the dots, but, following a night of imbibing, I crash really hard on not just a physiological level but an emotional, psychological level as well. In fact I find it hard to separate the two reactions. To me they are basically the same thing, overall increased levels of "pain" or "anxiety" or "neurosis" manifesting in my inner being, my soul if you will.
I know that sounds a bit woo woo but it's sort of an ineffable and inarticulable idea. I'm 100% sure I feel it though, every time I drink I sleep poorly, I'm much more irritable once the alcohol wears off the next afternoon, and by the time the evening comes around, assuming I don't re-dose, I'm much more prone to ruminate on negative thoughts or seek mindless stimulation to distract my mind from the general malaise.
I think alcohol really is a mainstream and socially acceptable means of anxiety self-medication. It's a deeply engrained cultural habit that has been around for millenia, and I don't expect or advocate for it to stop, but for me it has palpable deleterious effects on my whole being.
I know that sounds a bit woo woo but it's sort of an ineffable and inarticulable idea. I'm 100% sure I feel it though, every time I drink I sleep poorly, I'm much more irritable once the alcohol wears off the next afternoon, and by the time the evening comes around, assuming I don't re-dose, I'm much more prone to ruminate on negative thoughts or seek mindless stimulation to distract my mind from the general malaise.
I think alcohol really is a mainstream and socially acceptable means of anxiety self-medication. It's a deeply engrained cultural habit that has been around for millenia, and I don't expect or advocate for it to stop, but for me it has palpable deleterious effects on my whole being.
They explain what a molecular signaling pathway is, but what is a "conserved molecular pathway", i.e., what is "conserved" about it?
Alcohol also makes us loose or inhibitions. I wonder why that is
inhibition is retention (of some state, or feeling, like "safe"); alcohol helps u forget; what inhibition?
Sadly enough, that all this science explores averages. I cannot drink alcohol because I remember "side effects" much more clearly than "direct" ones. I used to have fun from drinks, but with age I did it less frequently and for the last 10 years I didn't drink at all. Why? Is there is some psychological cause or some biochemistry mechanisms works at higher/lower intensity than in average fly? I cannot even make a guess reading such articles.
Maybe younger people are performing something like reinforcement learning with higher emphasis on exploration than exploitation relative to older individuals.
Well put.
I was going say something to this effect as well, for the other harder drugs I’ve tried. I do remember having fun while on them, but I also vividly remember the “come down”, and don’t really crave them at all because of that. I wonder if this (psychological?) trait is more common amongst people who are unlikely to become addicted to drugs.
I have pretty bad depression and mindfulness (metacognition/awareness of your emotions) have a lot to do with memories. I'm often not "aware" that I'm happy/sad/angry, etc. and my memories reflect that. Just taking a moment and thinking about what I'm currently feeling can be surprising to me.
I think this relates a lot here, people who are well aware of their emotions may observe the effects the drugs have on them, not just when they're high/coming down but also it's affects on their day to day lives.
I think this relates a lot here, people who are well aware of their emotions may observe the effects the drugs have on them, not just when they're high/coming down but also it's affects on their day to day lives.
In college I remember loving amphetamines. I would take as much adderall as I could get my hands on.
It made me feel superhuman. Just knowing I would score some would get me excited.
But the more I times I took it, the more I would think of the terrible comedown. It got to the point where I wouldn’t touch the stuff without having weed and xanax on me.
Finally, I just got too scared of the comedown and stopped. All for the best I suppose (though I do take low doses of adderall or modafinil very occasionally for work if I feel like I’m about to fall asleep at my desk)
It made me feel superhuman. Just knowing I would score some would get me excited.
But the more I times I took it, the more I would think of the terrible comedown. It got to the point where I wouldn’t touch the stuff without having weed and xanax on me.
Finally, I just got too scared of the comedown and stopped. All for the best I suppose (though I do take low doses of adderall or modafinil very occasionally for work if I feel like I’m about to fall asleep at my desk)
I, too, hate the "come down" more than I desire the reward, which makes me averse to many of those things, as well as gambling. I have a hard time following sports teams too closely because I hate to "lose" more than I like to "win".
That said, I don't have the same reaction to alcohol; the cravings when I regularly partake are stronger than the desire not to. I'm sure there's a whole spectrum of folks from averse to addiction, to easily addicted to anything.
That said, I don't have the same reaction to alcohol; the cravings when I regularly partake are stronger than the desire not to. I'm sure there's a whole spectrum of folks from averse to addiction, to easily addicted to anything.
This is interesting to hear from other people. I basically stopped drinking because the side effects (being hungover specifically) made it no longer appealing on a totally emotionally level. I didn't realize this was "a thing". Nowadays I'll sometimes have 1 glass of wine and those alarm bells start ringing loudly preventing me from having a second.
All drugs of abuse — alcohol, opiates, cocaine, methamphetamine — have adverse side effects. They make people nauseous or they give people hangovers, so why do we find them so rewarding? Why do we remember the good things about them and not the bad?
This seems like a weird question, at least in relation to alcohol. The pleasurable experience of alcohol is not only remembered but enthusiastically attested to by people currently under the influence. People have no problem remembering hangovers and talk about them frequently, and the other negative health effects are separated in time from the consumption experience, which weakens the association. I suspect this person has an unusual personal reaction to alcohol, but if it leads him to original discoveries, more power to him.
This seems like a weird question, at least in relation to alcohol. The pleasurable experience of alcohol is not only remembered but enthusiastically attested to by people currently under the influence. People have no problem remembering hangovers and talk about them frequently, and the other negative health effects are separated in time from the consumption experience, which weakens the association. I suspect this person has an unusual personal reaction to alcohol, but if it leads him to original discoveries, more power to him.
I probably have an “unusual reaction” to alcohol, since I don’t find it great. I’ve only gotten drunk twice in my life and it felt horrible, even kind of traumatizing. Not just the hangover, even the feeling of being drunk is very unpleasant to me.
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There is emotional pain and then there is physiological pain.
Drugs and alcohol alleviate emotional pain and have physilogical "pleasure" effects in some cases. But most of the negative effects that are frequently talked about are physiological.
Apples shouldn't be compared to oranges. A good comparison would for example be to compare the pleasures of drugs against the emotional toll caused by the negative sociological effects (can't get jobs,stigma,less friends in some cases,unintended harm to loved ones,etc...)
People take medical drugs like anti-depressants all the time knowing full well long term use can have side effects and even in the short term there can be severe side effects.
Drugs and alcohol alleviate emotional pain and have physilogical "pleasure" effects in some cases. But most of the negative effects that are frequently talked about are physiological.
Apples shouldn't be compared to oranges. A good comparison would for example be to compare the pleasures of drugs against the emotional toll caused by the negative sociological effects (can't get jobs,stigma,less friends in some cases,unintended harm to loved ones,etc...)
People take medical drugs like anti-depressants all the time knowing full well long term use can have side effects and even in the short term there can be severe side effects.
I think, because of how society views alcohol, it's possible for not drinking to have a negative sociological and emotional effect. For example, someone gets passed up for a promotion because they don't go out to happy hour.
This. This is huge for me as well. There is definitely a societal expectation to drink in certain situations, and if you don't, you're viewed as one of the un-cool guys. Probably another thing that will require change at the leadership level to be really corrected over time.
And it's really dangerous for people predisposed to alcoholism. In the past, smoking was similar, and it has serious long term negative physiological effects.
I don't drink, and fortunately I've never worked in an office where that mattered, but my personal choices in consuming drugs should have no professional repercussions unless it negatively impacts my job performance.
I don't drink, and fortunately I've never worked in an office where that mattered, but my personal choices in consuming drugs should have no professional repercussions unless it negatively impacts my job performance.
Not drinking can have a negative sociological and emotional effect regardless of how society views alcohol. I've had numerous interesting/strange life experiences that probably wouldn't have been possible without alcohol. I'll gladly pay the price of having a few bad hangovers and worse factual recall to (hopefully) continue to have those kinds of experiences.
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Weirdly enough, at certain amounts of alcohol, I start to think about memories I haven't had in years. Nothing traumatic nor nostalgic, but just mundane memories from school or childhood. I suppose it's just the mind wandering to thoughts it normally doesn't think about while inebriated, forming unusual connections.
And so we have "Diamonds and Rust" :)
original Joan Baez version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ST9TZBb9v8
Judas Priest version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OHJP1BSVgM
original Joan Baez version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ST9TZBb9v8
Judas Priest version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OHJP1BSVgM
There's even pop culture references for such a phenomenon. As an example, in the movie Beerfest, they get one of the characters drunk so he can recall the way to a secret place that he had only previously experienced drunk before.
I actually once had a situation like this- in the village in NYC there is a secret club/lounge my friend took me to one night. That area is just filled with bars that these days are overrun with tourists and the post-college crowd. I went out to dinner with a friend one night about two years later, we had a few, and were looking for a night cap, and I was like ugh, lets just leave the neighborhood to avoid these loud places you have to fight for space in.
But... then I walked by this almost suspectly non-descript steel door at the bottom of a few stairs, and some part of my brain said "there is a secret club/lounge behind this door." It was kind of surreal. I hesitantly opened it, and what do you know... there we were.
But... then I walked by this almost suspectly non-descript steel door at the bottom of a few stairs, and some part of my brain said "there is a secret club/lounge behind this door." It was kind of surreal. I hesitantly opened it, and what do you know... there we were.
> They make people nauseous or they give people hangovers, so why do we find them so rewarding? Why do we remember the good things about them and not the bad?
Is this not generally true? I like to hike, but a lot of times climbing a mountain is absolutely miserable, and I might be sore for some time afterword. Yet I always remember it as a great experience.
Or with past relationships, I have to try to remember the bad parts, but the good parts come easily.
Is this not generally true? I like to hike, but a lot of times climbing a mountain is absolutely miserable, and I might be sore for some time afterword. Yet I always remember it as a great experience.
Or with past relationships, I have to try to remember the bad parts, but the good parts come easily.
It might also be related to the peak-end rule[1]. The most intense feeling of a hike can come in many places, probably at the end if the goal is to get somewhere in particular or to complete a specific goal. Although it might be mostly bad/hard, you remember the end (satisfying) and the peak emotion which is the good feeling.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak–end_rule
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak–end_rule
My experience is of course anecdotal, but that’s not how I feel about alcohol.
I got drunk twice in my life. Once intentionally to see what it was like, and once by accident (thought I was having a couple beers, turns out they all had double the usual alcohol content so I was having twice what I thought I was having). Both experiences made me feel so bad that they were sort of traumatizing.
I’m not talking about the hangover (though that was awful too). The feeling of being drunk feels terrible to me. I feel like I’m losing control of myself. My face feels numb. People say that’s how it is, and I don’t understand how they can look forward to that.
I got drunk twice in my life. Once intentionally to see what it was like, and once by accident (thought I was having a couple beers, turns out they all had double the usual alcohol content so I was having twice what I thought I was having). Both experiences made me feel so bad that they were sort of traumatizing.
I’m not talking about the hangover (though that was awful too). The feeling of being drunk feels terrible to me. I feel like I’m losing control of myself. My face feels numb. People say that’s how it is, and I don’t understand how they can look forward to that.
Neurological diversity is a thing. I have no scientific evidence, but based on anecdata from friends, I think people can experience ethanol intoxication in very different ways.
One of my friends is a former alcoholic; he says that the sound of an aluminum can popping open feels like a religious moment. The sound is apparently so thoroughly associated with endless drinking and partying from his teenage years, that it triggers a brief rush of euphoria, followed by an immediate craving to drink a beer. He's talked about how the first time he was moderately intoxicated, it was the best feeling he'd ever had, both in an immediately euphoric sense, and in a deeper, comforting sort of way. "I just had this feeling that life was going to be all right," he says.
Scary stuff - and so very different from your experience.
One of my friends is a former alcoholic; he says that the sound of an aluminum can popping open feels like a religious moment. The sound is apparently so thoroughly associated with endless drinking and partying from his teenage years, that it triggers a brief rush of euphoria, followed by an immediate craving to drink a beer. He's talked about how the first time he was moderately intoxicated, it was the best feeling he'd ever had, both in an immediately euphoric sense, and in a deeper, comforting sort of way. "I just had this feeling that life was going to be all right," he says.
Scary stuff - and so very different from your experience.
I remember when I climbed Guadalupe peak in west Texas. I got to the gate around 3:50, and 4pm is when they close new permits for camping near the summit. Well I start climbing and because I started to late the sun set before I even reached the camp site. So I set up my tent nearly in the dark as the temperatures were dropping. Well, I knew it was going to be cold, but I lived in Texas at the time and didn't really remember what to do in sub freezing temperatures overnight. Stayed up nearly the entire night shivering.
But I'll never forget the sun rise up the flat Texas horizon from the tallest peak in the state. It was so beautiful and peaceful there. Clear skies, everything was perfect. I don't really remember the night before anymore, just that I need to pack some extra layers next time.
But I'll never forget the sun rise up the flat Texas horizon from the tallest peak in the state. It was so beautiful and peaceful there. Clear skies, everything was perfect. I don't really remember the night before anymore, just that I need to pack some extra layers next time.
Also people tend to remember group shenanigans and drinking leads to more of it than teetotaling.
There’s even more similarity because high altitude appears to be causing permanent brain damage - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16443427
I doubt that study is relevant, considering all the mountains in question are close to twice the altitude of Guadalupe.
Even when you think of the worst (physical) pain you've ever experienced... it never seems all bad (even when it was life-threatening!) - I actually remember it kind of fondly?! Is it some sort of Stockholm Syndrome for bad things?
I had my arm 90% severed in an industrial accident, judging by the amount of morphine they had me on, I must have been in a lot of pain. But I can't remember the feeling of the pain at all, but I can remember all the things I was doing to try and reduce the pain.
Every injury since (broken leg, broken collar bone, dislocated finger) has seemed like the worst pain I've ever experienced, but I know logically it can't be. And once I recover I forget the pain again.
Every injury since (broken leg, broken collar bone, dislocated finger) has seemed like the worst pain I've ever experienced, but I know logically it can't be. And once I recover I forget the pain again.
You may have been administered midazolam. This drug causes memory loss and is often used in the treatment of bodily trauma.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735240/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735240/
Midazolam isn’t a pain killer. It is used for sedation and anesthesia induction but you’d only get that once and it only lasts for a few hours.
I dunno man, I used to be addicted to heroin, and the feelings of withdrawel still haunt me.
Don’t get me wrong, I had some fun times on the stuff, but whenever I think about it all I remember is the worst and most terrible pain you could ever possibly imagine.
Don’t get me wrong, I had some fun times on the stuff, but whenever I think about it all I remember is the worst and most terrible pain you could ever possibly imagine.
Are you in a program that biases your thoughts towards the negative aspects?
Would such a program be necessary? I stopped taking LSD and psilocybin because of the negative effects it had on me. No program required.
As a non-user I'm curious, what kind of negative effects? If you don't mind sharing.
Your classic "bad trip" effects. Extreme paranoia. Manufactured negative thoughts about what others are thinking about you, etc. I once read someone say that a bad trip is as close to what it feels like to experience psychosis as one can get without actually be clinically diagnosed psychotic. My empathy towards psychotics has increased significantly since then.
Also, really bad nausea.
Also, really bad nausea.
Usually people don't need a program to help them understand why being deep in the grips of addiction is painful and bad.
Yes, I think it is quite normal.
Alcohol is a cheap, ubiquitous drug that helps us relax today, for a roughly proportionate cost which we can pay tomorrow (plus whatever longer-term costs like liver damage or memory formation which we can ignore or put off for even longer).
It's not confusing or unintuitive. Alcohol helps us relax. That's all it does! Which leads to all the other behaviors that are secondary to suddenly finding oneself relaxed. At first, a healthy relationship with alcohol is a perfectly reasonable transaction. I think it is normal that we would have fond memories of being relaxed, even in the midst of the mild hangover that would necessarily follow.
We easily get addicted to cheap methods for getting relaxed. Why wouldn't we? Especially if everyone around us is constantly using it to get relaxed. It's disgusting to witness! Unless you also use it to relax, in which case it suddenly becomes tolerable or even amusing.
You don't need much to relax (initially). Like with most drugs, eventually it is less potent and you require more. Also, like with any habit, your default baseline (in this case, your default relaxedness) starts to shift, so that eventually you are actively un-relaxed unless alcohol is present in your system. Obviously, as this continues, you need more and more alcohol, which is toxic pretty much in direct proportion to its volume.
Edit: added the sentence about hangovers, for clarity
Alcohol is a cheap, ubiquitous drug that helps us relax today, for a roughly proportionate cost which we can pay tomorrow (plus whatever longer-term costs like liver damage or memory formation which we can ignore or put off for even longer).
It's not confusing or unintuitive. Alcohol helps us relax. That's all it does! Which leads to all the other behaviors that are secondary to suddenly finding oneself relaxed. At first, a healthy relationship with alcohol is a perfectly reasonable transaction. I think it is normal that we would have fond memories of being relaxed, even in the midst of the mild hangover that would necessarily follow.
We easily get addicted to cheap methods for getting relaxed. Why wouldn't we? Especially if everyone around us is constantly using it to get relaxed. It's disgusting to witness! Unless you also use it to relax, in which case it suddenly becomes tolerable or even amusing.
You don't need much to relax (initially). Like with most drugs, eventually it is less potent and you require more. Also, like with any habit, your default baseline (in this case, your default relaxedness) starts to shift, so that eventually you are actively un-relaxed unless alcohol is present in your system. Obviously, as this continues, you need more and more alcohol, which is toxic pretty much in direct proportion to its volume.
Edit: added the sentence about hangovers, for clarity
>Alcohol is a cheap, ubiquitous drug that helps us relax today, for a roughly proportionate cost which we can pay tomorrow
While I like this metaphor I don't think it's really true. As long as you drink in moderation the relaxation benefits easily outweigh the negatives. Of course, the converse is also true, you can drink so much that the negatives dwarf the positives.
While I like this metaphor I don't think it's really true. As long as you drink in moderation the relaxation benefits easily outweigh the negatives. Of course, the converse is also true, you can drink so much that the negatives dwarf the positives.
It depends on how strong your heart is. You have no way of knowing until you have an MI or adverse cardiac event. That’s why high blood pressure is termed the “silent killer”. Same for your liver. You will not know the extent of the damage until your liver enzymes are elevated, at which point it’s too late to undo the damage.
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t drink at all, but just that you should be aware of the consequences because they are non-zero.
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t drink at all, but just that you should be aware of the consequences because they are non-zero.
> It's not confusing or unintuitive. Alcohol helps us relax. That's all it does!
Alcohol can also carry many flavors and dissolve oils in suspension (it is a solvent, after all). This is one of the reasons whiskies have such diverse flavors. Many vanilla extracts are also around 35-40% abv (alcohol free versions use glycerin?... I think?).
Alcohol (wines for example) can also useful in cooking, where the alcohol is boiled off and some of the flavors and oils are left behind.
Alcohol can also carry many flavors and dissolve oils in suspension (it is a solvent, after all). This is one of the reasons whiskies have such diverse flavors. Many vanilla extracts are also around 35-40% abv (alcohol free versions use glycerin?... I think?).
Alcohol (wines for example) can also useful in cooking, where the alcohol is boiled off and some of the flavors and oils are left behind.
Alcohol helps us relax. That's all it does!
That's just silly. (I'd go into detail but I think it's sufficiently obvious.) Have you ever tried it?
That's just silly. (I'd go into detail but I think it's sufficiently obvious.) Have you ever tried it?
The idea that alcohol helps people relax is actually an old (and incorrect) way of thinking about alcohol. The 'relaxtion' that is felt by alcohol is actually due to its addictiveness, and the cycle it puts you in. By drinking, you are entering a cycle where you crave the next drink, which is why it 'relaxes' you, it is actually just removing the very craving it places in you.
You’re basically correct about the mechanism of addiction but wrong about alcohol and relaxation.
I drink maybe twice a month. It’s relaxing. I am in no sense addicted to alcohol.
Alcohol is primarily a GABAergic, so of course it’s relaxing. Habitual use will down-regulate those receptors, and the addictive cycle is triggered by medicating the resulting anxiety with more alcohol. None of this is surprising.
I drink maybe twice a month. It’s relaxing. I am in no sense addicted to alcohol.
Alcohol is primarily a GABAergic, so of course it’s relaxing. Habitual use will down-regulate those receptors, and the addictive cycle is triggered by medicating the resulting anxiety with more alcohol. None of this is surprising.
I think all these theories should be taken with a grain of salt, especially those that talk in universalities. People have many different reactions to alcohol and that changes as they age, their stress level, etc.
Source? This is completely counter to my experience and everything that I know about alcohol
Neurogenic studies of alcohol addiction: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2607330/
Could you post a source that shows alcohol relaxes you?
Could you post a source that shows alcohol relaxes you?
This doesn't substantiate your claim at all...
Alcohol is well established to have a sedative and depressant effect in addition to its stimulant effect - see e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21560041
People commonly experience that effect as relaxation.
People commonly experience that effect as relaxation.
The term I've heard to describe things like this (marathons, mountaineering, etc) is type 2 fun. Type 1 fun is actually fun while you're doing it, type 2 fun takes a couple of weeks to forget the suffering and to decide that it was in fact fun.
The term was popularized by alpinist Kelly Cordes, but goes back decades. Used frequently in ice climbing scene, because climbing a pitch of ice is generally a painful horrendous experience for most. But you’re so elated and adrenaline pumped when you reach the top, you get a “climbers high” that makes you want to keep going. Type 2 fun is a unique experience.
Also applicable to gaming:
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png
>Is this not generally true? I like to hike, but a lot of times climbing a mountain is absolutely miserable, and I might be sore for some time afterword.
I'm a strength athlete. Minor injuries are the norm, serious injuries are a guarantee if you lift long enough. I tore my meniscus a 14 months ago and kept on lifting and I have numerous friends that have delayed surgeries so that they could still compete in specific competitions.
It tears us up, it's miserable, but man it's worth every second of discomfort, every little bit of pain.
I'm a strength athlete. Minor injuries are the norm, serious injuries are a guarantee if you lift long enough. I tore my meniscus a 14 months ago and kept on lifting and I have numerous friends that have delayed surgeries so that they could still compete in specific competitions.
It tears us up, it's miserable, but man it's worth every second of discomfort, every little bit of pain.
I am quite the opposite. I remember bad things quite readily, but have to remind myself repeatedly it wasn't all bad.
As for drinking, it was an excuse to act like an idiot and have some fun when I was younger I think. The hangovers did get much worse as I got older, so I rarely drink now and when I do I don't usually enjoy it that much.
As for drinking, it was an excuse to act like an idiot and have some fun when I was younger I think. The hangovers did get much worse as I got older, so I rarely drink now and when I do I don't usually enjoy it that much.
This reminds me of the book Stumbling on Happiness by Daniel Gilbert. There's a section were he discusses how we misremember how stressful and frustrating family vacations can be, and instead remember them as being more enjoyable due to some expectation that they should be.
In On Photography (I believe), Susan Sontag talks about how it has been a quintessentially American thing to ensure everyone was smiling in family snapshots. I wonder if cultures or families that tend to smile in photos end up taking more vacations because they misremember them as being better than they were.
In On Photography (I believe), Susan Sontag talks about how it has been a quintessentially American thing to ensure everyone was smiling in family snapshots. I wonder if cultures or families that tend to smile in photos end up taking more vacations because they misremember them as being better than they were.
Interesting that so many others in this thread experience the same side effects on their learning capabilities caused by even just a few drinks and/or lack of sleep. I feel significantly slower and much more mentally "foggy" for days after I drink more than 1-2 drinks in a sitting. I'm definitely still a social drinker, but this affirms my opinion that I need to further reduce my alcohol consumption (preferably remove it altogether).
> I feel significantly slower and much more mentally "foggy" for days after I drink more than 1-2 drinks in a sitting.
If it only takes 3 drinks and has this effect you clearly can't metabolise alcohol well and have a genetic difference to others, because that's not a normal westerner's experience. Perhaps you have an enzyme difference along the chain of breakdown
If it only takes 3 drinks and has this effect you clearly can't metabolise alcohol well and have a genetic difference to others, because that's not a normal westerner's experience. Perhaps you have an enzyme difference along the chain of breakdown
To me, this is the beginning of one such mechanistic explanation for alcohol addiction. In particular, this is interesting when you consider the several (many?) studies that link early age (binge-)drinking with increased likelihood of alcoholism. One wonders whether the Notch "domino" is more susceptible in younger brains.
On the positive side, some people do drink to forget.
If alcohol were invented today, I don't think there's any way it would be legal in most nations. The only reason we tolerate it as a society is millennia of inertia.
Geez, lighten up. Yes, some people definitely develop alcohol addiction but about 80% do not and are free to enjoy good quality drinks that not only give you a buzz, but also potentially taste great like good wine or whisky or mezcal.
I think there is almost a neo-Prohibitionist attitude coming from some, of late. Though this is largely anecdotal, I think it got ratcheted up by the movement to see marijuana legalized, where weed has often been compared to alcohol.
Aside from this, I agree that the vast majority can enjoy these substances without destroying themselves, leading very productive lives with some of the evident downsides that even casual consumption can bring.
Aside from this, I agree that the vast majority can enjoy these substances without destroying themselves, leading very productive lives with some of the evident downsides that even casual consumption can bring.
I always wonder how much publication bias exists in these fields: “Drug X isn’t that bad for you” seems like it might be a lot harder to publish than series of papers ratcheting up the severity of some bad effects.
The entire point of this thread is that even small doses of alcohol -- doses well within what we consider to be moderate drinking -- have fairly extreme negative effects on memory. This is a problem even for the 80% of drinkers who do not develop alcohol addiction.
As we start to actually study the effects of alcohol, it really looks like it is a hard drug with no net positive effects at anything over a minuscule dose.
As we start to actually study the effects of alcohol, it really looks like it is a hard drug with no net positive effects at anything over a minuscule dose.
I mean, it’s gotten me laid a bunch, and also has had me make new friends. Also a promotion (probably)
Taking that further, it has also probably had a considerable effect on population numbers. Alcohol probably adds to the birth rate.
I'm not sure how well that hypothesis would hold up in a quick comparison of alcohol consumption per capita vs birth rate.
Space aliens looking at those numbers might even mistake alcohol for a mild contraceptive.
Space aliens looking at those numbers might even mistake alcohol for a mild contraceptive.
A prevailing theory is that humans started engaging in agriculture, which was less efficient than hunting and gathering in the start, because of the desire to consume alcohol. It is difficult to argue that agriculture has not had a dramatic effect on population numbers.
Possibly at the high end of consumption, also possibly, your parents had a glass of wine or a dash of alcohol just before your conception.
"net positive effect" is subjective. Drinking is fun and eases social interactions; I personally value that more than whatever downsides there might be to memory formation.
You'll find that alcohol is a lot like cigarettes. Cigarettes used to be everywhere, even doctors would prescribe cigarettes to their patients. Then people started slowly waking up to the idea that nicotine is a highly addictive and toxic substance. People started looking at cigarettes differently, they stopped putting cigs in movies, and people stopped glamorizing cigarettes in the media. Now we have big warnings on all cigarettes saying how bad they are for you. In some circles it is even uncool to smoke cigs.
Addictive, certainly. Toxic at normal doses? Evidence says no.
Carbon monoxide, tar, and tiny soot particles are very bad for you. Nicotine? Not so much.
Addiction is annoying as hell and I don’t recommend it. But let’s be accurate.
Carbon monoxide, tar, and tiny soot particles are very bad for you. Nicotine? Not so much.
Addiction is annoying as hell and I don’t recommend it. But let’s be accurate.
Which evidence? Before modern pesticides came along nicotine was used to fumigate greenhouses. Suggests to me that it must be fairly toxic.
There's increasing evidence showing that there is no safe level of alcohol consumption and that the supposed benefits are outweighed by the harms:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45283401
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Development_of_a_rat...
I think outlawing it now would be about as successful as the first Prohibition in the USA (i.e. not at all) but I do think it should be regulated more closely (e.g. very strong restrictions on alcohol advertising and perhaps plain packaging and black box warnings similar to cigarette packaging) and that the dangers of alcohol should be taught more widely.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45283401
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Development_of_a_rat...
.svg){kind=link}
I think outlawing it now would be about as successful as the first Prohibition in the USA (i.e. not at all) but I do think it should be regulated more closely (e.g. very strong restrictions on alcohol advertising and perhaps plain packaging and black box warnings similar to cigarette packaging) and that the dangers of alcohol should be taught more widely.
This evidence is extremely weak. I urge you to read the actual paper itself. Basically you can nullify all that evidence if you don’t drink and drive.
Poster is not wrong though, we've banned drugs for much less.
In the Clean episode of "How we got to now" with Steven Johnson, Steven states that the beer-brewing process kills disease. Although no-one realises this in the middle of the 19th century, it means if you live in an unclean environment,
beer is a very sensible drink.
>> https://subsaga.com/bbc/documentaries/science/how-we-got-to-...
>> https://subsaga.com/bbc/documentaries/science/how-we-got-to-...
Beer in the medieval period through 19th century was hardly alcoholic, so this is a foolish argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer
>At mealtimes in the Middle Ages, everyone could drink small beer, including children, while eating a meal at the table. Table beer was around this time typically less than 1% ABV.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer
>At mealtimes in the Middle Ages, everyone could drink small beer, including children, while eating a meal at the table. Table beer was around this time typically less than 1% ABV.
Boiling, however, is also a key part of the brewing process and it does a smashing job killing germs....
1% isn't that low though. I'm sure you could drink a lot of that, so people did get drunk.
"It was common for workers (including sailors) who engaged in heavy physical labor to drink more than 10 imperial pints (5.7 litres) of small beer during a workday to quench their thirst. Small beer was also drunk for its nutrition content; it might even have bits of wheat or bread suspended in it. Erasmus Darwin, in his A Plan for the Conduct of Female Education, in Boarding Schools of 1797, thought that "For the drink of the more robust children water is preferable, and for the weaker ones, small beer ...".[5] Larger educational establishments like Eton, Winchester, and Oxbridge colleges ran their own breweries.[6]"
"It was common for workers (including sailors) who engaged in heavy physical labor to drink more than 10 imperial pints (5.7 litres) of small beer during a workday to quench their thirst. Small beer was also drunk for its nutrition content; it might even have bits of wheat or bread suspended in it. Erasmus Darwin, in his A Plan for the Conduct of Female Education, in Boarding Schools of 1797, thought that "For the drink of the more robust children water is preferable, and for the weaker ones, small beer ...".[5] Larger educational establishments like Eton, Winchester, and Oxbridge colleges ran their own breweries.[6]"
So even if you drank 10 pints of 1% beer, that's equivalent to 2 pints of 5% beer. Spread over a day, I don't think 2 pints is getting anyone drunk at all, except maybe for children who somehow got their hands on 10 whole pints of 1% beer.
Perhaps it’s weird but I don’t seem to have this issue. But I generally drink 1 standard drink per day max (actually weighed out on my little scale cause I am a huge dork) and only 5x per week probably. I basically feel a bit happier and a bit lazier after drinking some alcohol. Mildly more social.
So does 10 mg zolpidem tartrate. As in, totally prevents memory formation. Gotta be careful with that stuff.
And prototypically, marijuana. Back in the day, I'd always see movies stoned. That way, if I liked them, I could see them again freshly. And if I didn't liked them, I could forget about them more easily.
And prototypically, marijuana. Back in the day, I'd always see movies stoned. That way, if I liked them, I could see them again freshly. And if I didn't liked them, I could forget about them more easily.
Brain injury can also obliterate memory abilities.
I've had a single moderate concussion, where one of my first memories afterwards is of sitting in the hospital emergency room with a couple friends. I had a notebook with my handwriting, containing several pages of questions/answers that my friends had me write down so they could stop repeating themselves to me.
I've had a single moderate concussion, where one of my first memories afterwards is of sitting in the hospital emergency room with a couple friends. I had a notebook with my handwriting, containing several pages of questions/answers that my friends had me write down so they could stop repeating themselves to me.
Hey, but at least you had friends and something to write with :)
Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position
Such a heavy burden now to be the one
Born to bear and bring to all the details of our ending
To write it down for all the world to see
But I forgot my pen
Literally had this song playing by pure chance from a big shuffle playlist, and did a double take.
How's that for chance :)
How's that for chance :)
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So, activity-dependent signaling cascades can cause single nucleotide substitutions during transcription?
Oh my god, I remember why I left neuroscience now. Biology is just incomprehensibly, nauseatingly, complex.
Oh my god, I remember why I left neuroscience now. Biology is just incomprehensibly, nauseatingly, complex.