Ask HN: Best country for hackers to work/live in?
9 comments
Johannesburg or Cape Town, South Africa.
English speaking, high demand for skilled programmers, brilliant climate (Johannesburg, especially). Jobs are mostly in the financial sector.
Good broadband is expensive, but prices are expected to drop quickly. World class healthcare, if you can afford it (as a programmer, you WILL be able to afford it). Reasonable cost of living.
There is a lot of crime, but if you live in an area like Sandton, it shouldn't bother you much if you take basic precautions.
The country does run the political risk of being hijacked by populists, but as a foreigner, with little invested in the country, you will be able to leave before things get bad.
Starting a business is doable, and, barring political problems discussed above, there is good upside potential.
English speaking, high demand for skilled programmers, brilliant climate (Johannesburg, especially). Jobs are mostly in the financial sector.
Good broadband is expensive, but prices are expected to drop quickly. World class healthcare, if you can afford it (as a programmer, you WILL be able to afford it). Reasonable cost of living.
There is a lot of crime, but if you live in an area like Sandton, it shouldn't bother you much if you take basic precautions.
The country does run the political risk of being hijacked by populists, but as a foreigner, with little invested in the country, you will be able to leave before things get bad.
Starting a business is doable, and, barring political problems discussed above, there is good upside potential.
I prefer Cape Town for many reasons. Johannesburg is fast paced all the time and never really sleeps. Cape Town is almost like a little sleepy village sometimes, and there's very little money here compared to in Johannesburg, but there are enough advantages to make me want to stay here and not move up there. If you make R25000-R35000/month you are well off.
According to doing bussiness you shouldn't move at all: http://www.doingbusiness.org/Rankings
Maybe New Zealand but I don't know anything about hackers culture there. I guess Australia might be better choice here (at least I know one Australian hacker while I live in Eastern Europe).
You can estimate other proposals by looking at "doing bussiness" list. Estonia (24th in list) most probably is good choice as well but it is really cold there. Here in Lithuania (26th in list) winters are cold sometimes and Estonia is north from us.
Maybe New Zealand but I don't know anything about hackers culture there. I guess Australia might be better choice here (at least I know one Australian hacker while I live in Eastern Europe).
You can estimate other proposals by looking at "doing bussiness" list. Estonia (24th in list) most probably is good choice as well but it is really cold there. Here in Lithuania (26th in list) winters are cold sometimes and Estonia is north from us.
New Zealand could be a good option for you.
1) Broadband speeds are good although maybe a little pricey by global standards (eg $55/month for cable, $60/month for ADSL. FYI 1 NZD ~ 1 SGD). The main cities (which generally implies Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch) have good universities and IT jobs. Also IT jobs pay well (that's compared to other local jobs, NZ salaries in general are lower than other larger western economies)
2) English is one of the official languages.
3) I dont know your age but there's a new Silver Fern visa for skilled migrants under 35 which allows you to move to NZ without a job offer (http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/work/silverfer...). With IT skills you should qualify for standard Skilled Migrant visas too.
4) New Zealand has a maritime climate (Köppen Cfb ie not too cold and not too hot) so is much cooler than Singapore. The country runs north - south so there's pleanty of variation in temperature. The main cities all get just over 2000 sunshine hours which is about the same as Singapore. However the rainfall of Auckland and Wellington is 40% less than Singapore and Christchurch is 60% less.
5) Kiwis have long admired those who have a go at starting their own company and take on the big fish. And as daliusd mentions it's easy to start a company.
6) Also there's plenty of easy direct flights from Singapore to New Zealand.
1) Broadband speeds are good although maybe a little pricey by global standards (eg $55/month for cable, $60/month for ADSL. FYI 1 NZD ~ 1 SGD). The main cities (which generally implies Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch) have good universities and IT jobs. Also IT jobs pay well (that's compared to other local jobs, NZ salaries in general are lower than other larger western economies)
2) English is one of the official languages.
3) I dont know your age but there's a new Silver Fern visa for skilled migrants under 35 which allows you to move to NZ without a job offer (http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/work/silverfer...). With IT skills you should qualify for standard Skilled Migrant visas too.
4) New Zealand has a maritime climate (Köppen Cfb ie not too cold and not too hot) so is much cooler than Singapore. The country runs north - south so there's pleanty of variation in temperature. The main cities all get just over 2000 sunshine hours which is about the same as Singapore. However the rainfall of Auckland and Wellington is 40% less than Singapore and Christchurch is 60% less.
5) Kiwis have long admired those who have a go at starting their own company and take on the big fish. And as daliusd mentions it's easy to start a company.
6) Also there's plenty of easy direct flights from Singapore to New Zealand.
Thanks for the information. I've been mostly considering New Zealand and Canada before posting this thread. I am beginning to like the sound of New Zealand more and more. :)
Quiet depressing(but not surprising) to see that China, the country that I'm doing a start-up in, is ranked 89th. Thanks for the link though ^^
Oh, don't worry about that. That list is more for foreign investor while it is good to understand how your country looks in general. While my country is listed 26th only in recent years situation has improved.
I'm not sure about 3) and 5), but Netherlands is not a bad choice — almost everyone speaks good English, climate is moderate and wages are quite decent, if you land a good job. At least in comparison with Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia that some have suggested in this thread (I am Latvian myself). Problem with Baltic States would be a lack of serious hacker/startup communities, lack of English speaking population and, of course, quite cold winters :) Then again, living in NL is much more expensive too.
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I don't know about (3) but Estonia or the Czech Republic I reckon.
I think Estonian is the most widely spoken language in Estonia, with Russian a distant second.
In Tallinn at least, everyone spoke perfect English.
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Thanks for all the suggestions so far!
I doubt anyone can really give you a list of places that fit your criteria. Maybe some folks can suggest some websites for looking up each criteria?
I use http://www.bestplaces.net/ for comparing US cities.
I currently live in a hot place. I would like to go someplace more temperate and my sons would like to go someplace generally cooler than here. The difference between these two views is that we all agree summers are too hot but, unlike my sons, I don't really want to freeze my arse off in the winter. The reality is that most places which are cooler in the summer will also be colder in the winter. The San Francisco Bay Area has the only Mediterranean climate in the US, which is not so hot in the summer but is also not too cold in the winter. Hawaii is also pleasant year-round in terms of temperature, which is probably why it is hellaciously expensive to live there. (I have other reasons I don't want to live in Hawaii -- and, yes, did look into it/ask around -- but even if I wanted to, I couldn't afford it).
Anyway, I personally think you would get better feedback if you asked for links to websites with info on each one (individually) of your criteria -- and I would love to add such links to my stash of place-comparison resources.
(I occasionally toy with the idea of doing something like bestplaces.net but with a different set of criteria. It will probably never happen. <shrug>)
I use http://www.bestplaces.net/ for comparing US cities.
I currently live in a hot place. I would like to go someplace more temperate and my sons would like to go someplace generally cooler than here. The difference between these two views is that we all agree summers are too hot but, unlike my sons, I don't really want to freeze my arse off in the winter. The reality is that most places which are cooler in the summer will also be colder in the winter. The San Francisco Bay Area has the only Mediterranean climate in the US, which is not so hot in the summer but is also not too cold in the winter. Hawaii is also pleasant year-round in terms of temperature, which is probably why it is hellaciously expensive to live there. (I have other reasons I don't want to live in Hawaii -- and, yes, did look into it/ask around -- but even if I wanted to, I couldn't afford it).
Anyway, I personally think you would get better feedback if you asked for links to websites with info on each one (individually) of your criteria -- and I would love to add such links to my stash of place-comparison resources.
(I occasionally toy with the idea of doing something like bestplaces.net but with a different set of criteria. It will probably never happen. <shrug>)
The San Francisco Bay Area has the only Mediterranean climate in the US
The coastal parts of Los Angeles and San Diego also have Mediterranean climates.
The coastal parts of Los Angeles and San Diego also have Mediterranean climates.
I had never heard that before. I always heard that only the SF Bay Area has it. However, this map seems to agree with you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Medclim.png
Having been to both of those places, I don't think of them that way. LA is hot as hell and very dry -- unless you are wealthy enough to be right on the beach (of course, you did say "coastal"). San Diego seemed to me a bit more temperate than LA but still quite dry. However, I spent like one day there, so my first-hand knowledge of that area is very limited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Medclim.png
Having been to both of those places, I don't think of them that way. LA is hot as hell and very dry -- unless you are wealthy enough to be right on the beach (of course, you did say "coastal"). San Diego seemed to me a bit more temperate than LA but still quite dry. However, I spent like one day there, so my first-hand knowledge of that area is very limited.
LA is a very big place, so there is a big variance between the coast (e.g. Santa Monica, Venice, Marina del Rey, South Bay) and the inland or valley areas. Usually the weather reports are almost like clockwork in an X/X+10/X+20 pattern: 70's at the beaches, 80's inland, 90's in the valleys.
If you want to stay cool and not too dry, it's not too expensive to live in the southern areas or even Long Beach.
If you want to stay cool and not too dry, it's not too expensive to live in the southern areas or even Long Beach.
I would actually like to move to a place with four seasons. Over here, it's pretty much summer all year round. Anyway, isn't the US sort of difficult to get into these days? I've noticed quite a few HNers complaining about that.
I have no idea how hard it is to get into. My mother got here by marrying my father, eons ago. I was born here.
I am only talking about America because it is what I know the most about. I have lived in Germany, a long time ago. I have lived a number of places in the US: Georgia, Texas, Kansas, Washington (state, not DC), and both Southern and Northern California. I also have driven through quite a lot of the US and was hoping to pursue a career in urban planning before life sidetracked that goal. So I have taken classes related somewhat to city planning stuff and spent time on an urban planning discussion board. I also am not happy with where I am currently living and hope to move at some point.
Some of the resources I use for assessing potential places to move:
Good luck with this.
I am only talking about America because it is what I know the most about. I have lived in Germany, a long time ago. I have lived a number of places in the US: Georgia, Texas, Kansas, Washington (state, not DC), and both Southern and Northern California. I also have driven through quite a lot of the US and was hoping to pursue a career in urban planning before life sidetracked that goal. So I have taken classes related somewhat to city planning stuff and spent time on an urban planning discussion board. I also am not happy with where I am currently living and hope to move at some point.
Some of the resources I use for assessing potential places to move:
bestplaces.net
http://scorecard.org/
http://www.city-data.com/
websites for some of the restaurants and grocery stores I like
google maps
weather.com
cleaner air than where I currently live
more walkable, transit-oriented community than where I currently live
~50,000 -- 100,000 population city within about 2.5 hours of a major metropolis
cost of living similar to here or cheaper
some must-have amenities (in terms of food mostly)
No or low state taxes
Good luck with this.
1) Fast broadband and interesting programming jobs that pay well. The economy values hackers, is what I'm saying here.
2) Population mostly speaks English.
3) Easy for a Singaporean to get a residence/work visa.
4) Temperate climate. One of the reasons I wish to relocate for a coupla years is because it's hot here.
5) Since I aspire to eventually start a business, this place should also be easy to start one in.
Any suggestions and reasons for them?