Ask HN: starting a career in software dev in my thirties, am I nuts?
40 comments
"Build it and it will come."
That was my strategy. I had no career and a degree in Philosophy that was taking me nowhere. Out of the blue I jumped into Web development and started building websites for anybody that needed them, for free. Once I had a portfolio of 10 or so I got a few part time position doing web development at a university. This gave me more experience and at the same time I started hacking on more technical aspects like OO PHP, Mysql, Ruby on Rails etc. I hacked on a few things and had some examples to show. This led to one fulltime job doing mostly PHP. I then hacked a bit more with Ruby and landed another job doing that fulltime. Now I am hacking on IOS and Macruby hoping to make a jump into the fields.
See the pattern? Get a development job doing whatever you can. Hack on stuff, build it, then try to move up.
Key is, Web Based software, IMO, is a show and tell type profession. Like carpentry the emphasis is on what you can do, what projects you have built, rather then degrees, age etc ...hope that helps...
See the pattern? Get a development job doing whatever you can. Hack on stuff, build it, then try to move up.
Key is, Web Based software, IMO, is a show and tell type profession. Like carpentry the emphasis is on what you can do, what projects you have built, rather then degrees, age etc ...hope that helps...
Yes, it does, thank you
Apply for unpaid internships. I'm sure most companies would rather have you than some young kid. Take the hit for a little while, and then turn it into a real job in a few months.
There are no jobs in this field unfortunately, especially not these days. I have 15 yrs experience in SW dev, and can't find a job now that I am suddenly unemployed. Sad truth.
I got worried while reading the headline because I'll be 30 when I get my master's in CS. The supportive comments in this thread at least alleviated my concerns.
Life begins at 40, dude :)
Never too late, and frankly I think you've done good getting grounded in things like BDD/TDD. There are people I know with 10-15 years of development experience that don't know about TDD, much less use it. It's not a silver bullet, but I think demonstrates a lot of forward thinking.
Have you considered just being an independent service provider? Looking for 'employment' isn't going to necessarily get you all that much more than you'd get if you got your own short term contracts. At the same time, different people have different needs - perhaps you have some need for 'employment' in the traditional sense?
I'm sensing some independence though - travelling for years, went back to school - jumping in to a new arena - etc. You may not fit well in most traditional employment situations.
How are you making money right now? How are you getting by? Are you doing any web work for hire? Could you do more? Does that not appeal to you?
Never too late, and frankly I think you've done good getting grounded in things like BDD/TDD. There are people I know with 10-15 years of development experience that don't know about TDD, much less use it. It's not a silver bullet, but I think demonstrates a lot of forward thinking.
Have you considered just being an independent service provider? Looking for 'employment' isn't going to necessarily get you all that much more than you'd get if you got your own short term contracts. At the same time, different people have different needs - perhaps you have some need for 'employment' in the traditional sense?
I'm sensing some independence though - travelling for years, went back to school - jumping in to a new arena - etc. You may not fit well in most traditional employment situations.
How are you making money right now? How are you getting by? Are you doing any web work for hire? Could you do more? Does that not appeal to you?
You're not nuts, if that's what you want to do, then do it.
However, the truth is 30 is not young for an entry level developer. Most 30 year-olds are accustom to a higher income than a 22 year-old CS grad, and this might make some employers adverse.
Keep pounding the pavement. With your engineering background you should be able to find a good job. It might take some time in this job market, but keep at it, and try to pickup some freelance to pad your resume.
However, the truth is 30 is not young for an entry level developer. Most 30 year-olds are accustom to a higher income than a 22 year-old CS grad, and this might make some employers adverse.
Keep pounding the pavement. With your engineering background you should be able to find a good job. It might take some time in this job market, but keep at it, and try to pickup some freelance to pad your resume.
Most 30 year-olds are accustom to a higher income than a 22 year-old CS grad
Having some familiarity with both fields, entry level programmers in the United States routinely make twice (or more) what L1 tech support workers get.
Having some familiarity with both fields, entry level programmers in the United States routinely make twice (or more) what L1 tech support workers get.
One thing you might have to do is price yourself to sell to get some sellable experience at which point you can start charging more.
I don't have enough experience to get started, and I can't get started without experience.
Horsepuckey. Can you FizzBuzz? If so, you're experienced enough to get a job as a developer. What you need to work on is not your programming ability -- that is what professional experience is for -- but your competence at marketing yourself.
You will probably not be hired to fill a hole labeled "I need a developer who does RoR, jQuery, Rspec, and Cucumber." First, most of the people who need exactly that skillset don't have the budget to hire anybody. (No offense to present company who may use exactly that skillset.) Second, most developers start with semi-relevant experience and gradually learn more about the stack their current job (or project at the job) involves. I was a Big Freaking Java Web Apps dev for 3 years and I started not knowing SQL, Spring, etc etc. That was fine -- it just meant my first several months involved doing an awful lot of iterating over hashmaps (java.util.* is my second home) when not reading code and tutorials.
Now, in terms of marketing yourself:
1) Make stuff you can show off. This distinguishes you from the 90 out of 100 candidates who are incapable of making stuff. Making stuff is the core developer competency. (Actually, it might be #2 after communication skills.)
2) Polish your communication skills. See #1.
3) Start networking. "Send a resume and pray" is jobseeking for people who enjoy unemployment. Know the decisionmaker beforehand. There are a variety of ways you can get started on this today -- for example, start writing a blog about the kinds of problems you have solved or will eventually solve for the kinds of people who will hire you. This gives you something to talk about. Alternatively, talk about what other people are writing in the same field. This has a long payoff timescale but the rewards can be fantastic.
Also, don't neglect traditional networking: business cards, meeting people face-to-face in your local community, etc etc.
Horsepuckey. Can you FizzBuzz? If so, you're experienced enough to get a job as a developer. What you need to work on is not your programming ability -- that is what professional experience is for -- but your competence at marketing yourself.
You will probably not be hired to fill a hole labeled "I need a developer who does RoR, jQuery, Rspec, and Cucumber." First, most of the people who need exactly that skillset don't have the budget to hire anybody. (No offense to present company who may use exactly that skillset.) Second, most developers start with semi-relevant experience and gradually learn more about the stack their current job (or project at the job) involves. I was a Big Freaking Java Web Apps dev for 3 years and I started not knowing SQL, Spring, etc etc. That was fine -- it just meant my first several months involved doing an awful lot of iterating over hashmaps (java.util.* is my second home) when not reading code and tutorials.
Now, in terms of marketing yourself:
1) Make stuff you can show off. This distinguishes you from the 90 out of 100 candidates who are incapable of making stuff. Making stuff is the core developer competency. (Actually, it might be #2 after communication skills.)
2) Polish your communication skills. See #1.
3) Start networking. "Send a resume and pray" is jobseeking for people who enjoy unemployment. Know the decisionmaker beforehand. There are a variety of ways you can get started on this today -- for example, start writing a blog about the kinds of problems you have solved or will eventually solve for the kinds of people who will hire you. This gives you something to talk about. Alternatively, talk about what other people are writing in the same field. This has a long payoff timescale but the rewards can be fantastic.
Also, don't neglect traditional networking: business cards, meeting people face-to-face in your local community, etc etc.
I'd go a step further than you on #3: forget about job postings altogether. Instead, make a list of companies you'd like to work for and for whom you think you'd made a good fit. Eliminate all game companies from that list. Then, make a project of finding people in that company to contact and ask if you can stop by and talk about how you can help. Then, don't let up. Nobody you'd ever want to work for is going to say "don't talk to me again".
We have hired people who did this to us. People who are extremely, pointedly, relentlessly interested in working for your team are much more attractive than job ad respondants.
We have hired people who did this to us. People who are extremely, pointedly, relentlessly interested in working for your team are much more attractive than job ad respondants.
This is especially good advice in our industry, since they people you want to talk to are trivially discoverable, spend upwards of 12 hours a day connected to publicly accessible communication channels, and are often very good about writing people back. (It would never have occurred to me several years ago that I could just, you know, write the CEO an email, and he might very well write back and would almost certainly not send out a company-wide memo saying that I was an idiot who should never be spoken to again. It would also not have occurred to me that the Product Leader in charge of X will practically fall over themselves in a rush to talk to you about their baby, and they also can almost certainly figure out a way to get you hired if they want you to be hired.)
Just another data point, but my experience and tptacek's line up pretty much exactly. None of our first three hires came through job ads. One developer, one product person, one bizdev person (we're peculiarly partnership-heavy and the founders are all technical), so it's not even developer-specific thing.
Two came from emailing the contact address on our website; one through a referral from a mutual friend.
Actually; one of them came from a conversation about whether their company and ours could work together, which weirdly morphed into us offering him a job. Thank goodness for no NDAs/non-competes!
Two came from emailing the contact address on our website; one through a referral from a mutual friend.
Actually; one of them came from a conversation about whether their company and ours could work together, which weirdly morphed into us offering him a job. Thank goodness for no NDAs/non-competes!
Out of curiosity, why no game companies?
The law of supply and demand.
You mean there are too many people wanting to work for a game company?
Many, many young devs are in love with the idea of developing games. Many more than the industry actually needs. It follows that you're less likely to land such a gig, and that you're more likely to get underpaid and be burned out by overwork if you do - there's always someone else who still has stars in their eyes, waiting to take your place.
If gaming is really a dev's passion, they should already have compelling work they've done on their own, a substantial portfolio, some contacts developed, etc. If not, it's probably an unrealistic flight of fancy, and it should be recognized as such and discarded.
If gaming is really a dev's passion, they should already have compelling work they've done on their own, a substantial portfolio, some contacts developed, etc. If not, it's probably an unrealistic flight of fancy, and it should be recognized as such and discarded.
If you want to work for a game company as a game developer you are right. I know some ridiculously bright people working for comparatively low wages in the industry.
If, however, you want to be a SysAdmin, or otherwise work on boring back end bullshit, my experience has been that if you don't mind being part of a department nobody listens to or cares about, game companies are good places to break into the industry (or to earn more than you would be worth elsewhere.) It's frustrating because you clearly have little autonomy or power, and management knows just about jack about ops work, and god help you if you interfere with a game's release schedule, but eh, the pay is good relative to the skill expected, and they are willing to hire people who are worse or less experienced than average, mostly because they don't know any better.
If, however, you want to be a SysAdmin, or otherwise work on boring back end bullshit, my experience has been that if you don't mind being part of a department nobody listens to or cares about, game companies are good places to break into the industry (or to earn more than you would be worth elsewhere.) It's frustrating because you clearly have little autonomy or power, and management knows just about jack about ops work, and god help you if you interfere with a game's release schedule, but eh, the pay is good relative to the skill expected, and they are willing to hire people who are worse or less experienced than average, mostly because they don't know any better.
This is basically how I got my first internship in college as a freshman with only a year of programming experience. It takes a bit of dedication to get the first gig to build up your resume, but if you just keep following up with the same people hopefully you can get an interview.
Can you FizzBuzz? If so, you're experienced enough to get a job as a developer.
I am always so surprised when I hear that, and have a difficult time believing that's true. With only an extremely beginner's level understanding of Python, I can solve FizzBuzz. Can I get a dev job?
I am always so surprised when I hear that, and have a difficult time believing that's true. With only an extremely beginner's level understanding of Python, I can solve FizzBuzz. Can I get a dev job?
This would put you ahead of literally half of software engineers at or below my level of seniority at least one Japanese megacorp. While I have very little experience with working in the United States, anecdotally, many programmers can't program there, either.
Really? Is it that bad?
I didn't know what fizzbuzz is until I read about it on wikipedia. But I frequently run into "web developers" that don't how sessions work or how cookies work and don't understand what CSS does. But i figured it was just these guys who give programmers a bad name. I had no idea it was really that bad and extends to the basics of programming.
I didn't know what fizzbuzz is until I read about it on wikipedia. But I frequently run into "web developers" that don't how sessions work or how cookies work and don't understand what CSS does. But i figured it was just these guys who give programmers a bad name. I had no idea it was really that bad and extends to the basics of programming.
I've always wondered -- is the reason people can't do fizzbuzz because a lack of understanding of modulus or because they can't comprehend the problem?
I know modulus isn't necessary, but I can see someone not doing the problem if the solution they are turning in is in a less elegant way.
I know modulus isn't necessary, but I can see someone not doing the problem if the solution they are turning in is in a less elegant way.
FizzBuzz comes from a game for six to eight year olds, who also don't understand modulus. That's part of the reason it is such a great problem: they fact that you realize "Hey, this is a whole lot easier with modulus" demonstrates that you can reason abstractly. You certainly don't need a mod operator to make it work -- if you're capable of writing a function, you can write divides_evenly_by_3(int number) using facts that every fourth grader knows.
If you prefer, you can substitute a similar problem which doesn't require even fourth grade math. Here's one: write a program which calculates the sum of all numbers between 1 and 1,000 whose digits sum up to 7. Or write a program which takes this post as input and tells me what the 3rd most common letter used was.
If you prefer, you can substitute a similar problem which doesn't require even fourth grade math. Here's one: write a program which calculates the sum of all numbers between 1 and 1,000 whose digits sum up to 7. Or write a program which takes this post as input and tells me what the 3rd most common letter used was.
That's true enough. But fact is, if someone's ignorant of modulus, I'd say that's scary. Knowing modulus doesn't necessarily demonstrate you have a great grasp of programming. But I think not knowing modulus demonstrates that there's a higher probability you know very little. And fact is, FizzBuzz also filters out all the people who know modulus, but can't figure it out anyway. You definitely don't want those people.
I didn't realise that some programmers didn't know modulus ... really??
> write a program which calculates the sum of all numbers between 1 and 1,000 whose digits sum up to 7
My Python answer:
(I used the range (1, 1000) as opposed to [1, 1000], but it doesn't make a difference since the edge values don't have digits that sum to 7.)
My Python answer:
sum(x for x in xrange(2, 1000) if sum(int(y) for y in str(x)) == 7)
# 9324
(I used the range (1, 1000) as opposed to [1, 1000], but it doesn't make a difference since the edge values don't have digits that sum to 7.)
There are a lot of micro improvements you can do to this. For example, after you find sum() == 7, you can increment x by 9 (since the largest digit in the ones column can be 7, and this takes a deficit of two digits to get back to the rollover -- and then 7 more to get a sum of 7 again).
And frankly I'm not sure if its faster to convert to string and back to int, or if it would be better to just use modulo arithmitic to get the values associated with the ones/tens/hundreds.
In any case, what you have is certainly readable though.
And frankly I'm not sure if its faster to convert to string and back to int, or if it would be better to just use modulo arithmitic to get the values associated with the ones/tens/hundreds.
In any case, what you have is certainly readable though.
I mainly meant "improve" in terms of conciseness and readability. I didn't see any need for optimization because the snippet runs instantly:
$ time python -c "print sum(x for x in xrange(2, 1000) if sum(int(y) for y in str(x)) == 7)"
9324
real 0m0.138s
user 0m0.012s
sys 0m0.012sMy Python answer for the second question, where `post` is patrio11's post as input:
from collections import defaultdict
from string import ascii_letters
d= collections.defaultdict(int)
for letter in post:
d[letter] += 1
print [letter for letter in sorted(d, key=d.get, reverse=True) if letter in ascii_letters][2]
Ah, your use of the collections module prompted me to read the docs for it (who would've guessed :) ) which leads to a revision of my other response:
import string, collections
s = "your text here"
print collections.Counter([i for i in s.lower()
if i in string.letters]).most_common(3)[-1]> Or write a program which takes this post as input and tells me what the 3rd most common letter used was.
I'm going for 'a'.
And, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:English_letter_frequency_(... (via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency) your four most frequently used letters match the table for English.
Tested in Python 2.7:
I'm going for 'a'.
And, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:English_letter_frequency_(... (via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency) your four most frequently used letters match the table for English.
.svg){kind=link}
Tested in Python 2.7:
s = "your text here"
import string
d = {}
for i in list(s.lower()):
if i in string.letters:
d[i] = d.setdefault(i, 0) + 1
print sorted(d.keys(), cmp = lambda x, y : cmp(d[x], d[y]), reverse = True)[2]
You don't need to do `list(s.lower())`, you can already iterate over a string. Also, instead of converting the whole string to a new lowercase one, which means allocating "a lot" of memory, you can convert each character separately as needed.
It's surprising how bad many developers are. We had a candidate in the other day who was struggling with a problem, so we kept making it easier until finally we asked him to "write some code to tell me if the input string consists only of the letter 'a'". When he got that wrong, the interview was over. Not to pick too much on this guy, because I really enjoyed talking with him, but it was a good reminder of how the rest of the world worked before I got a job with people that actually care about and are good at their craft.
I'm very sorry, but I have to laugh at this. That's like the SNL Celebrity Jeopardy skit where for the Final Jeopardy round an exasperated-to-the-breaking-point Trebek deploys a deliberately extremely easy question at the celebrities such as "write any letter" and they still find a way to mess it up.
And no, I don't feel sorry for people like this. Despite their glaring incompetence they still manage to snow people into hiring them. Some of them easily make $500,000/year and up if they remora themselves to the underbelly of a large company and emit horrible VB code.
And no, I don't feel sorry for people like this. Despite their glaring incompetence they still manage to snow people into hiring them. Some of them easily make $500,000/year and up if they remora themselves to the underbelly of a large company and emit horrible VB code.
What?! Wait, was this an interview for Google? How did this guy get to this stage? I've always assumed I probably couldn't get an interview at Google, but geez...
Yeah, I would love to know how he got that far as well. It's definitely not a normal occurrence for people to get onsite interviews and then bomb like that. Everyone that I've interviewed up until this point was pretty decent even if they weren't ultimately extended an offer.
I've been doing a lot of job hunting lately. There are a ton of crappy jobs out there for php/java code monkeys. If you can solve FizzBuzz you can get the job, though you might not want to. Python and other more fashionable languages tend to be the choice of more sophisticated teams with higher standards. Simply put, a beginner's level understanding of PHP will get you a php code monkey job. A beginner's level understanding of Python along with an understanding of fundamentals can get you a dev job.
edit: definitely broad strokes
edit: definitely broad strokes
Probably not in a hot new startup, but there might be some obscure company somewhere that would need some code monkeys...
Similar scenario for me, I'm also surprised.
i agree with everything, but i especially agree with this:
> Make stuff you can show off.
if you have a good portfolio and can convince someone to look at it, they will care much less about your experience, grades, etc..
> Make stuff you can show off.
if you have a good portfolio and can convince someone to look at it, they will care much less about your experience, grades, etc..
If you could also show some open source work, it would be a tremendous help. I have been job hunting for well around 2 weeks already, and from what I have noticed is that half of the companies I'm getting interviews with placed a huge emphasis on my open source contributions (however paltry those are). I'm just quite unlucky that my kryptonite has been the combination of a.) These shops all use RoR while I'm a Java guy (currently remedying that), and b.) My SQL experience (or the apparent lack of it, no pun intended, quickly remedying that too).
1+2+3 = sound advice.
Failing that, if worst comes to worst get income support (if that's what your country has) and/or a part time job and create a startup... At the very least a startup is an awesome resume piece to show prospected employers.
Failing that, if worst comes to worst get income support (if that's what your country has) and/or a part time job and create a startup... At the very least a startup is an awesome resume piece to show prospected employers.
that's precisely what I've done ... I have a (not finished) product, which you can see at http://nift.ie ... that's my product .. I just need to add some more features before I start plugging it ...
Being able to build something useful that works well is the key skill. You've demonstrated you can do that. I can think of dozens of software applications that are not as nifty as nift.ie. Someone was paid to write most of them.
> I just need to add some more features before I start plugging it ...
Maybe I've been hanging around here too long but my first thought in response was "you probably don't". As in, you probably don't need to add more features before you start plugging, MVP and all that. :)
Maybe I've been hanging around here too long but my first thought in response was "you probably don't". As in, you probably don't need to add more features before you start plugging, MVP and all that. :)
Try to leverage your previous experiences. Five years of work experience and your development skills make you the uniqe person.
Add what Patrick wrote above and try to review your situation in this ligth.
Add what Patrick wrote above and try to review your situation in this ligth.
Can you FizzBuzz?
While I cannot remember the syntax off the top of my head, I am pretty sure I could write out how to do this in BASIC. I have not had a programming course in 22 years. Maybe there is hope for me.
While I cannot remember the syntax off the top of my head, I am pretty sure I could write out how to do this in BASIC. I have not had a programming course in 22 years. Maybe there is hope for me.
I don't think you are nuts, but be realistic in your expectations for your first job in the industry. There will be plenty of competition out there that could have a lot more experience - you just need to focus on showing why you are passionate about starting in this field and that you are not only capable but also willing to learn anything required to improve your potential within their companies.
If I saw this kind of drive I would (and have in the past) overlooked people's actual experience. Someone with a go-to attitude and very eager to increase their skills will always do well in an interview with me.
Good luck and don't let the current job market bring you down - it'll happen sooner than later.
If I saw this kind of drive I would (and have in the past) overlooked people's actual experience. Someone with a go-to attitude and very eager to increase their skills will always do well in an interview with me.
Good luck and don't let the current job market bring you down - it'll happen sooner than later.
You're not nuts. I'm doing it and I'm over 40, I spent a decade or two in civil engineering as a land surveyor and then as a cartographer. That whole industry collapsed, and since I had learned BASIC and C in high school and did some sysadmin UNIX stuff decades ago, I'm getting back up to speed thanks to Python.
My advice would be to get a related job in a shop that uses a similar set of technologies and has programmers on staff. Keep working on your skill set, and get some mentoring from an experienced programmer.
Another avenue I would recommend is to work on a high-quality open source project to get some experience under your belt.
My advice would be to get a related job in a shop that uses a similar set of technologies and has programmers on staff. Keep working on your skill set, and get some mentoring from an experienced programmer.
Another avenue I would recommend is to work on a high-quality open source project to get some experience under your belt.
I'm going through a very similar situation, though I never finished my degree the first time around. I dropped out, and spent most of my 20's working in various dead end tech support jobs. Then 3 years ago I went back and finished my degree. I graduated in June of 2009. I took a job I now hate because I was trying to get in to get experience and to be able to pay off my student loans. I'm going through the motions in this job, but trying to work my way into the field I want to be in, web development. Bottom line for me is, if you don't enjoy what you do for a living, you don't find it engaging, then you shouldn't be in that job. Find the job you want to work in. I realize it's more difficult as a person who is looking and not currently employed full time, but keep at it. Just keep racking up experience where you can, and eventually you'll get the job you want to be in. Trust me, I've wasted a year in this job, and if I could go back a year, I wouldn't have taken this position.
How far are you getting, are you not getting interviews or are you getting stuck at the interview stage ?
Sounds like you are already there if you are making money building Wordpress sites. Just keep doing that and scale up to a point where you are able to make a living from it. When you feel comfortable, expand into taking freelance Ruby / Rails work as well as your Wordpress work. Keep going along this track until someone offers you a full time gig, by then maybe you don't even care to take one.
If you are located in NYC send me your resume. The company I work for is looking for someone whose experience matches yours.
ditto for me in San Francisco
Thanks a lot guys, that's encouraging, and I would be willing to move, but I'm in Ireland, and visa could be an issue.
I suggest you contribute to an open source project, if people like your work there, freelance project is a possibility. Also it looks good in your CV. But seriously, if you intend to be a s/w engineer, why build an app and sell it yourself? With Android, iPhone and Ruby on Rails, it is easy to make something and sell.
>> I don't have enough experience to get started, and I can't get started without experience.
Sounds to me like you probably have bucket loads of experience compared against a recent grad. You've held down a job, traveled, went to school twice. Your current skill-set includes a lot of soft skills (people skills) that many experienced developers lack. I'd suggest putting that foot forward.
Sounds to me like you probably have bucket loads of experience compared against a recent grad. You've held down a job, traveled, went to school twice. Your current skill-set includes a lot of soft skills (people skills) that many experienced developers lack. I'd suggest putting that foot forward.
I know of people who enter med school in their late 30s/early 40s.
So no, you are not nuts. Life isn't a race.
So no, you are not nuts. Life isn't a race.
[deleted]
The people who are nuts are the one's that don't have any other aspirations than a paycheck. You sir, are not.
As I see it you have a few options:
1. Create something meaningful, on your own, and publish it. Having some applications even when they do not generate revenue, can act as your experience. It will certainly help in marketing yourself.
2. Consider starting in another role in a software company, like Quality Assurance, then try to moving into a developer role for the company.
As I see it you have a few options:
1. Create something meaningful, on your own, and publish it. Having some applications even when they do not generate revenue, can act as your experience. It will certainly help in marketing yourself.
2. Consider starting in another role in a software company, like Quality Assurance, then try to moving into a developer role for the company.
Ignore the age. In 10 more years you'll be 10 years older no matter what. You could be a world-class programmer and product designer at that point. Or you could be wishing you had started 10 years earlier. I seriously doubt you'll have starved to death by then unless you make some destructive life choices... I could come up with plenty of examples of people who didn't start their life's work until 33 (and much older)- but it's irrelevant- a distraction at best.
Having said that, I think we have an innate tendency to... acclimatize as we get older. We start to expect that things should come easier. You'll need to counter that if you continue this path. Expect it to be very hard- on the learning side and the self-marketing side and the delivering value to your employer or own business...- and deal with that reality instead of assuming that the difficulty is somehow related to your age or self confidence or how long it took before you got whatever degree etc. etc. Step up.
Having said that, I think we have an innate tendency to... acclimatize as we get older. We start to expect that things should come easier. You'll need to counter that if you continue this path. Expect it to be very hard- on the learning side and the self-marketing side and the delivering value to your employer or own business...- and deal with that reality instead of assuming that the difficulty is somehow related to your age or self confidence or how long it took before you got whatever degree etc. etc. Step up.
Right on! Today is the first day of the rest of your life!
No, you're not nuts at all. Fellow 30-something here, you should run with it, if it's what you want to do. Like with start ups, persistence is key.
As other people have said, put some stuff up to showcase what you're capable of. If you work on a side project that you can demonstrate to people and possibly get some revenue (or at least public recognition) from it'll help improve your personal brand, which in turn will make it easier for you to get hired, providing the jobs are around in your area.
As other people have said, put some stuff up to showcase what you're capable of. If you work on a side project that you can demonstrate to people and possibly get some revenue (or at least public recognition) from it'll help improve your personal brand, which in turn will make it easier for you to get hired, providing the jobs are around in your area.
I had a workmate on a J2EE team who had a Physics degree but couldn't work find anything on his field here in Chile. He moved into computer programming around his mid/late 30s and now he works in the largest bank, but he's always hacking small proyects.
I'm 34, and have a job with Java technologies that pays the bills, but I can't help to hack small projects after hours. I often feel that I need to escape that 'sinking' feeling, so I'm trying to build my own small business right now.
If you review other posts here on HN, you will notice a pattern of people which feel on a crisis around our age. It's common. But it's not the end of the world. You are not old, and you've proven to have the will to keep going forward, so just keep trying. Best wishes!
I'm 34, and have a job with Java technologies that pays the bills, but I can't help to hack small projects after hours. I often feel that I need to escape that 'sinking' feeling, so I'm trying to build my own small business right now.
If you review other posts here on HN, you will notice a pattern of people which feel on a crisis around our age. It's common. But it's not the end of the world. You are not old, and you've proven to have the will to keep going forward, so just keep trying. Best wishes!
First, you aren't too old at all. We recently hired a programmer in his late 50s, and man are we glad we did (and btw, age was never a consideration in the first place). He's great, and we're probably going to use much of his work as a reference point for future apps.
As for getting into it... glad to hear you've had some success with interviews. My biggest bit of advice to you is to get your hands on a good data structures and algorithms book (Java is fine), and learn the crap out of it. Since you like programming, you'll enjoy this, and it'll help you in interviews and as a programmer. In particular, make sure you know:
linked lists binary trees (be able to code insert, traverse, find on the spot; read about delete but don't worry so much about keeping it all in your head) sorting (quicksort, mergesort, maybe a few others) read about balanced trees, b-trees, etc, follow and try out the code, but don't worry about keeping it in your head Hashmaps (what's a hashing function, how to keep good performance) Graphs are fun, and once you can code trees, you have all the tech skills, but the algorithms in graphs are very interesting... and now and then does come up in an interview. SQL - I still get asked about this a lot... know the basic stuff (select, conditions, joins) cold, and also make sure you know some of the grouping functions (HAVING) and how outer joins work. Anything more elaborate will get you points, but probably won't hurt you if you don't know the answer.
Personally, I find it slightly obnoxious that interviewers rely so heavily on this stuff, but it is actually kind of fun. I always review this carefully before an interview. It can make the difference (in fact, I'm pretty sure I missed out on a job because I let it get stale and fumbled around too much... it's a shame, if I'd spent my usual 8 hours preparing, I probably would have rocked it).
It's a lot to learn, but it sounds like you enjoy this anyway.
One other thing... to get experience, try taking on a small software project for your current employer. Once you've done it, you'll have "official" experience. Sounds like I started in a similar spot to you (math major with some CS coursework), so I had to work a little harder to convince employers I could write code. I think EE would probably put you in a pretty good spot, so you really just need to convince them of this thorough those technical screens (which is why I so strongly recommend you read up on data structures).
As for getting into it... glad to hear you've had some success with interviews. My biggest bit of advice to you is to get your hands on a good data structures and algorithms book (Java is fine), and learn the crap out of it. Since you like programming, you'll enjoy this, and it'll help you in interviews and as a programmer. In particular, make sure you know:
linked lists binary trees (be able to code insert, traverse, find on the spot; read about delete but don't worry so much about keeping it all in your head) sorting (quicksort, mergesort, maybe a few others) read about balanced trees, b-trees, etc, follow and try out the code, but don't worry about keeping it in your head Hashmaps (what's a hashing function, how to keep good performance) Graphs are fun, and once you can code trees, you have all the tech skills, but the algorithms in graphs are very interesting... and now and then does come up in an interview. SQL - I still get asked about this a lot... know the basic stuff (select, conditions, joins) cold, and also make sure you know some of the grouping functions (HAVING) and how outer joins work. Anything more elaborate will get you points, but probably won't hurt you if you don't know the answer.
Personally, I find it slightly obnoxious that interviewers rely so heavily on this stuff, but it is actually kind of fun. I always review this carefully before an interview. It can make the difference (in fact, I'm pretty sure I missed out on a job because I let it get stale and fumbled around too much... it's a shame, if I'd spent my usual 8 hours preparing, I probably would have rocked it).
It's a lot to learn, but it sounds like you enjoy this anyway.
One other thing... to get experience, try taking on a small software project for your current employer. Once you've done it, you'll have "official" experience. Sounds like I started in a similar spot to you (math major with some CS coursework), so I had to work a little harder to convince employers I could write code. I think EE would probably put you in a pretty good spot, so you really just need to convince them of this thorough those technical screens (which is why I so strongly recommend you read up on data structures).
This is good advice.
Also to the OP: this book is good, and a must read. It will help you a lot on the fundamentals of CS. http://www.amazon.com/Algorithm-Design-Manual-Steve-Skiena/d...
Also to the OP: this book is good, and a must read. It will help you a lot on the fundamentals of CS. http://www.amazon.com/Algorithm-Design-Manual-Steve-Skiena/d...
Paul, build something..no I am not joking..
what got me back into programming..my A.A.S. 2 year degree is in accounting and Computer Science..my time at Purdue University was in Molecular Biology was that I started building computer applications while at Purdue University.
Once you get something built and start showing it to people..someone shows up sooner or later with a job offer.
also what helps ..show off your projects here at HN..
Your are not nuts.
So Paul if you could build any Ruby on Rails Application what RoR application would you build?
Side Note: In fact all my successful interviews involved me showing something that I built.
what got me back into programming..my A.A.S. 2 year degree is in accounting and Computer Science..my time at Purdue University was in Molecular Biology was that I started building computer applications while at Purdue University.
Once you get something built and start showing it to people..someone shows up sooner or later with a job offer.
also what helps ..show off your projects here at HN..
Your are not nuts.
So Paul if you could build any Ruby on Rails Application what RoR application would you build?
Side Note: In fact all my successful interviews involved me showing something that I built.
I did the same as you. I did not get into programming till I was in my early 30s. I think I was 34 years old when I first started identifying as "a computer programmer" (I mean, when I would meet people and they would ask me what I did for a living).
I've had a great time doing software work, but the first year or 2 I was doing it were frustrating for the number of things I still did not know how to do. It is a little bit amazing how many different things you have to know to be good at it.
Anyway, my own experience is that it can be done. Of course, 2010 is a tough time to be starting in any career at all. You did not mention which country you are in, but from the way you talk about your schooling, I assume you are in the USA. The recession has been intense in the USA, see this chart: http://calculatedriskimages.blogspot.com/2010/07/employment-...
One change I've noticed in the tech industry since 2005 is there is a much bigger interest in knowing frameworks, rather than simply a computer language. Maybe 10 years ago a person could say "I know Java" or "I know PHP" but nowadays its more like "I know Spring, Hibernate, Grails" or "I know Symfony, CodeIgniter, Drupal". So my advice is to pick a specialty.
I've had a great time doing software work, but the first year or 2 I was doing it were frustrating for the number of things I still did not know how to do. It is a little bit amazing how many different things you have to know to be good at it.
Anyway, my own experience is that it can be done. Of course, 2010 is a tough time to be starting in any career at all. You did not mention which country you are in, but from the way you talk about your schooling, I assume you are in the USA. The recession has been intense in the USA, see this chart: http://calculatedriskimages.blogspot.com/2010/07/employment-...
One change I've noticed in the tech industry since 2005 is there is a much bigger interest in knowing frameworks, rather than simply a computer language. Maybe 10 years ago a person could say "I know Java" or "I know PHP" but nowadays its more like "I know Spring, Hibernate, Grails" or "I know Symfony, CodeIgniter, Drupal". So my advice is to pick a specialty.
Hi Paul,
you're not nuts :) I studied Civil Engineering at university, and then faffed around for the next 10 years because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I discovered my passion for programming at the age of 32 through the initial Ruby on Rails podcast. Unfortunately I couldn't program at all at the time, had never knowingly used unix and so spent the next 2 years teaching myself most evenings after putting the kids to bed.
The key thing for me actually landing a job was through meeting up with a local programmer. I'd discovered his blog, realised he was local and arranged to meet up with him for a beer. He told me that there was a Ruby User Group in town and so I plucked up the courage and went to the next meeting - it was great! At the third or fourth meeting heard through a fellow attendee that the company he worked at was looking for rails programmers. Two interviews later and I was employed.
I'm not a world class programmer. But I consider myself very fortunate to have discovered my passion at what seemed to me at the time so late in life. Many people never do.
And getting a paycheck as a result of that passion is better than a kick in the teeth ;)
All the best mate.
you're not nuts :) I studied Civil Engineering at university, and then faffed around for the next 10 years because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I discovered my passion for programming at the age of 32 through the initial Ruby on Rails podcast. Unfortunately I couldn't program at all at the time, had never knowingly used unix and so spent the next 2 years teaching myself most evenings after putting the kids to bed.
The key thing for me actually landing a job was through meeting up with a local programmer. I'd discovered his blog, realised he was local and arranged to meet up with him for a beer. He told me that there was a Ruby User Group in town and so I plucked up the courage and went to the next meeting - it was great! At the third or fourth meeting heard through a fellow attendee that the company he worked at was looking for rails programmers. Two interviews later and I was employed.
I'm not a world class programmer. But I consider myself very fortunate to have discovered my passion at what seemed to me at the time so late in life. Many people never do.
And getting a paycheck as a result of that passion is better than a kick in the teeth ;)
All the best mate.
As a manager I can tell you that I am looking for any clues I can find to mitigate the risk of bringing on a new person. "Experience' means very little if I have no way of assessing what a prospective employee/contractor did in those previous jobs. You need 'evidence' more than you need experience; evidence of your language and problem solving skills; evidence of your communication skills; evidence of your motivation and interests.
Eric
Eric
[deleted]
You'll meet a lot of ageists in your career. Ignore the objections from all of them, including yourself.
I'm 30 and just got my first job in Software Engineering. I just recently graduated with a degree in CS and I started at the company as an intern - they hired me within a month.
#1 most important thing to understand: programming will consume your life, if you let it. And if you want to be good, you need to let it.
#2 most important thing to understand: people-networking is important, though you probably know that by now. The rub is that #1 has a tendency to prevent #2. It's good to work hard and program and make stuff, but don't neglect to tell people about it and find other people who share your interests. Without them, you'll never learn about the good jobs because you'll be lost in the sea of recruiters and contract jobs.
#2 most important thing to understand: people-networking is important, though you probably know that by now. The rub is that #1 has a tendency to prevent #2. It's good to work hard and program and make stuff, but don't neglect to tell people about it and find other people who share your interests. Without them, you'll never learn about the good jobs because you'll be lost in the sea of recruiters and contract jobs.
I did a similar thing when I was your your age.
Try to get a programming job in the industry you worked in. Domain experience matters.
Don't correlate your age with where you think you should be in life.
When I finished grad school I subtracted 10 years from my chronological age and declared it my career age. I picked 10 b/c that's the difference in years between my graduate and undergraduate degrees.
Nowadays, when I get hung up on where I think I should be in life (office, better salary, etc), I think how I'd feel if I were my career age. From that perspective, I always come out ahead.
Try to get a programming job in the industry you worked in. Domain experience matters.
Don't correlate your age with where you think you should be in life.
When I finished grad school I subtracted 10 years from my chronological age and declared it my career age. I picked 10 b/c that's the difference in years between my graduate and undergraduate degrees.
Nowadays, when I get hung up on where I think I should be in life (office, better salary, etc), I think how I'd feel if I were my career age. From that perspective, I always come out ahead.
You are never too inexperienced to get started. In fact I think that's probably the greatest obstacle to more people being experts at something, the fear of not being good enough before they even dive in.
I also came from a technical background, Mech. and Elec. Eng, and didn't really start programming until about 6.5 years ago. But I was deadly serious about it and about being the best, even if I didn't have a CS degree. I immersed myself.
About 2 years ago, I was able to quit engineering and go full-time. Now I run a web development consultancy that has a great team, and I'm writing articles that even get picked up by Ruby Inside (thanks perterc!). I'm even in the process of contributing back to both Rails and jQuery core.
I talk to a lot of people looking to dive into software development because they can't find technical cofounders. I think this is the right approach, but they all seem to have this mindset that they'll never be a real programmer, in that they ask me how in the world they can get started and simply not suck. Not sucking is one thing, but being great is where it's at. Do the latter, and you'll always land on your feet.
I also came from a technical background, Mech. and Elec. Eng, and didn't really start programming until about 6.5 years ago. But I was deadly serious about it and about being the best, even if I didn't have a CS degree. I immersed myself.
About 2 years ago, I was able to quit engineering and go full-time. Now I run a web development consultancy that has a great team, and I'm writing articles that even get picked up by Ruby Inside (thanks perterc!). I'm even in the process of contributing back to both Rails and jQuery core.
I talk to a lot of people looking to dive into software development because they can't find technical cofounders. I think this is the right approach, but they all seem to have this mindset that they'll never be a real programmer, in that they ask me how in the world they can get started and simply not suck. Not sucking is one thing, but being great is where it's at. Do the latter, and you'll always land on your feet.
You are nuts. Wait until your forties, like I did.
The most successful people do something they love. If you love something, you will spend more time doing it. If you spend more time doing it, you will inevitably become good at it.
Sure, it's easier to pick things up when you're younger. Yes, you remember more of what you learned in your teens vs. 20s and 20s vs 30s. That's just the way the mind ages. But people learn new things at every decade of life. Your 30s are still a great time to learn. You'll be an expert by the time you're 40 if you stay with it.
Sure, it's easier to pick things up when you're younger. Yes, you remember more of what you learned in your teens vs. 20s and 20s vs 30s. That's just the way the mind ages. But people learn new things at every decade of life. Your 30s are still a great time to learn. You'll be an expert by the time you're 40 if you stay with it.
No, you are not nuts. Here is an example of nuts: thinking that you have a telepathic connection with your ex-girlfriend, who wasn't actually your girlfriend.
You are normal. Go for it.
You are normal. Go for it.
You're nuts.
I'm also 33 years old, and let me tell you, getting a break in this business at 33 with not much professional experience is very, very difficult. By 33 you're expected to have around ten years experience in the relevant technologies/application domains. At least 3 or 4 are pretty much requird for even a so-called "entry level" position. Companies are willing to cut you a break if you're fresh out of college, less so if you're not.
Your best bet is to move to either the SF Bay area or the Boston area. There you are more likely to find hiring managers who don't care about the bullshit HR filters and do care about what you can actually do and what your interests and motivations are.
Outside of that, good luck to you.
I'm also 33 years old, and let me tell you, getting a break in this business at 33 with not much professional experience is very, very difficult. By 33 you're expected to have around ten years experience in the relevant technologies/application domains. At least 3 or 4 are pretty much requird for even a so-called "entry level" position. Companies are willing to cut you a break if you're fresh out of college, less so if you're not.
Your best bet is to move to either the SF Bay area or the Boston area. There you are more likely to find hiring managers who don't care about the bullshit HR filters and do care about what you can actually do and what your interests and motivations are.
Outside of that, good luck to you.
"and I can't get started without experience"
No, no..that's not universally true. Don't let yourself to be affected by this concept. You can get employed without formal experience, some bigger companies also hire newbies. You will just get lower salary.
No, no..that's not universally true. Don't let yourself to be affected by this concept. You can get employed without formal experience, some bigger companies also hire newbies. You will just get lower salary.
I am technically minded, I did my first degree in Elec. Eng, which I finished in 2000, and was exposed to some programming.
I spent 5 unfulfilling years in tech support at a big global company, then went travelling for a few years, then came back and did a software degree in 8 months at the age of 30 (due to the fact that I already had exposure, they allowed me to skip some credits). I came out with a high 2nd class honours from this, which I felt was pretty good considering the amount I had to learn.
Since I graduated in 2008, I opted not to jump into the first job that came my way, and instead started studying Ruby on Rails, jQuery, and more recently BDD with Rspec and Cucumber, as well as working on some projects and building wordpress sites in between for a little extra cash. The idea was that this time around I would get work that interested me instead of going through the motions.
Recently I've been looking for employment, and haven't been successful, although feel as though I have come close once or twice.
Still, I'm starting to get a sinking feeling. I don't have enough experience to get started, and I can't get started without experience. It's starting to get me down a bit. I'm 33 now, and I need to start my career already.
I would love to know what insight you guys have for me in this situation.
cheers
Paul