Ask YC: How did you escape the pressures of school?
11 comments
Perhaps this list of billionaire dropouts may have some relevance to the topic at hand:
http://www.pennylicious.com/2006/10/09/billionaire-dropouts/
Also listen to Steve Jobs talk about dropping out in his commencement speech:
http://www.google.com/search?q=steve+jobs+commencement
Dropping out is one of the worst things you can do if you want a job, and one of the best things you can do if you want to make sure you won't end up in one. Essentially you throw yourself in the deep end with nothing to "fall back on".
http://www.pennylicious.com/2006/10/09/billionaire-dropouts/
Also listen to Steve Jobs talk about dropping out in his commencement speech:
http://www.google.com/search?q=steve+jobs+commencement
Dropping out is one of the worst things you can do if you want a job, and one of the best things you can do if you want to make sure you won't end up in one. Essentially you throw yourself in the deep end with nothing to "fall back on".
I'm really skeptical that there's a causal relationship between dropping out and subsequently becoming a billionaire, or otherwise very wealthy. There may be a correlation (both require independent thinking, etc.), but I think most of those billionaires would have been as successful or even more so if they'd have spent the time to finish school.
And looking at a handful of examples of billionaire dropouts and then generalizing more broadly is pretty silly: that is pure selection bias. You could also look at the set of billionaires who are, say, born in June and draw similar conclusions. Either way, you're ignoring the vast number of common cases in favor of a few spectacular exceptions.
And looking at a handful of examples of billionaire dropouts and then generalizing more broadly is pretty silly: that is pure selection bias. You could also look at the set of billionaires who are, say, born in June and draw similar conclusions. Either way, you're ignoring the vast number of common cases in favor of a few spectacular exceptions.
Sure, if you throw yourself in the deep end, you may sink to the bottom. However, those who make it out will be better swimmers than those who stay in the kiddie pool, that's all.
> but I think most of those billionaires would have been as successful or even more so if they'd have spent the time to finish school.
Dropping out can be a necessary condition due to timing reasons alone. Gates dropped out of Harvard because he was worried about missing his chance to make it big in the computer industry. There's also the non-trivial issue of losing your most energetic years as a young adult (18-22) by spending them on something other than your life ambition. Not to mention, if you aren't interested in college and force yourself to do it, that may well have such a spirit-crushing/soul-numbing effect that you kill off your own motivation to the point where you lose your drive to DO your own company. It depends on your personality.
I think for the most part, ambition to take over the world as an entrepreneur is incompatible with jumping through anyone else's hoops, including sitting in class and doing what someone else tells you.
So it's not that dropping out makes you a world-changer, but staying in is frustrating to the ambitions of world-changers.
If you look at the Forbes 2007 list of richest Americans who didn't inherit their wealth, you get 1. Gates (college dropout), 3. Adelson (college dropout), 4. Ellison (college dropout), 5 and 6. Brin and Page (grad school dropouts), 7. Kerkorian (8th grade dropout!), 8. Dell (college dropout), 9. Allen (college dropout). Only Warren Buffet at #2 didn't drop out of school at some level, but he was already established in business before he went to college, and only went because his father pressured him into it. He hated it. (I left out the Koches because they inherited Koch Industries.)
The causal effect is that the same thing that drives them to be successful also drove them to drop out.
> but I think most of those billionaires would have been as successful or even more so if they'd have spent the time to finish school.
Dropping out can be a necessary condition due to timing reasons alone. Gates dropped out of Harvard because he was worried about missing his chance to make it big in the computer industry. There's also the non-trivial issue of losing your most energetic years as a young adult (18-22) by spending them on something other than your life ambition. Not to mention, if you aren't interested in college and force yourself to do it, that may well have such a spirit-crushing/soul-numbing effect that you kill off your own motivation to the point where you lose your drive to DO your own company. It depends on your personality.
I think for the most part, ambition to take over the world as an entrepreneur is incompatible with jumping through anyone else's hoops, including sitting in class and doing what someone else tells you.
So it's not that dropping out makes you a world-changer, but staying in is frustrating to the ambitions of world-changers.
If you look at the Forbes 2007 list of richest Americans who didn't inherit their wealth, you get 1. Gates (college dropout), 3. Adelson (college dropout), 4. Ellison (college dropout), 5 and 6. Brin and Page (grad school dropouts), 7. Kerkorian (8th grade dropout!), 8. Dell (college dropout), 9. Allen (college dropout). Only Warren Buffet at #2 didn't drop out of school at some level, but he was already established in business before he went to college, and only went because his father pressured him into it. He hated it. (I left out the Koches because they inherited Koch Industries.)
The causal effect is that the same thing that drives them to be successful also drove them to drop out.
I think you can easily get into trouble by looking at only the very richest people: by definition, they are the 1-in-a-million who took the right risks, and got fantastically lucky. Dropping out could very well be high risk, high reward -- but that doesn't mean the overall expected value is particularly high.
Dropping out can be a necessary condition due to timing reasons alone.
There's also the non-trivial issue of losing your most
energetic years as a young adult (18-22) by spending them
on something other than your life ambition.
> if you have opportunities now, you'll have opportunities in a few years once you graduate.
Sure, but not all opportunities are created equal. Think how different things would be if Gates waited a couple years, or Woz and Jobs, or even the Google guys. Google would have incorporated right around the dot-bust and likely would've tanked because it wouldn't have had those couple years to become established first. If ViaWeb had waited a couple years then instead of selling to Yahoo in 1998 they would have run into the bust as well, making it that much harder to get bought. WebTV would've missed out on two years' worth of being viable back when websites were designed for 640x480. Microsoft would have been a couple years behind and would've missed the IBM deal.
In this industry, a couple of years is a long time and things are constantly moving, so there's always an incredible opportunity cost for waiting.
On the flip side, college will always be there. Woz went back and got his degree after Apple went public.
> I think more people should view entrepreneurship as a career, not as something you do for a few years in your early 20s to make a few quick bucks.
You can do it as long as you want. However, as an oldie, I can tell you that my productivity level was MUCH higher when I was younger. In the 18-22 range, this stuff is EXCITING. You've never DONE it before. Everything motivates you!
I don't think it's an accident Reddit was done by guys that age. It's such a simple site with a boring design that people with massively more experience wouldn't even bother to do something like it. But they started out in Lisp, so it was an adventure! Then they learned Python and rewrote it. New and interesting!
Nothing substitutes for enthusiasm because enthusiasm leads to getting things done. New things are exciting. Youth = inexperience = more things are new and therefore exciting and so you have more enthusiasm. Youth also means higher hormone levels, which means more energy and caring about things more and being irrational by expending irrational amounts of energy on projects that interest you. Lower hormone levels mean indifference or just talking about something but not having the excitement level needed to break your energy-conservation threshold and DO it.
Sure, but not all opportunities are created equal. Think how different things would be if Gates waited a couple years, or Woz and Jobs, or even the Google guys. Google would have incorporated right around the dot-bust and likely would've tanked because it wouldn't have had those couple years to become established first. If ViaWeb had waited a couple years then instead of selling to Yahoo in 1998 they would have run into the bust as well, making it that much harder to get bought. WebTV would've missed out on two years' worth of being viable back when websites were designed for 640x480. Microsoft would have been a couple years behind and would've missed the IBM deal.
In this industry, a couple of years is a long time and things are constantly moving, so there's always an incredible opportunity cost for waiting.
On the flip side, college will always be there. Woz went back and got his degree after Apple went public.
> I think more people should view entrepreneurship as a career, not as something you do for a few years in your early 20s to make a few quick bucks.
You can do it as long as you want. However, as an oldie, I can tell you that my productivity level was MUCH higher when I was younger. In the 18-22 range, this stuff is EXCITING. You've never DONE it before. Everything motivates you!
I don't think it's an accident Reddit was done by guys that age. It's such a simple site with a boring design that people with massively more experience wouldn't even bother to do something like it. But they started out in Lisp, so it was an adventure! Then they learned Python and rewrote it. New and interesting!
Nothing substitutes for enthusiasm because enthusiasm leads to getting things done. New things are exciting. Youth = inexperience = more things are new and therefore exciting and so you have more enthusiasm. Youth also means higher hormone levels, which means more energy and caring about things more and being irrational by expending irrational amounts of energy on projects that interest you. Lower hormone levels mean indifference or just talking about something but not having the excitement level needed to break your energy-conservation threshold and DO it.
Also as an oldie, I'd say my productivity today is the highest it has ever been. How do I keep myself motivated? By constantly being a beginner. I do web programming, GUI programming, embedded systems, drivers, unix, mac, PC, bare metal, lisp, python, C, dozens of assembly languages, Verilog, hardware, analog, RF, antennas, etc.
In my opinion, you are just making excuses for why you are less productive than you should be; it's called rationalization. ;-)
My advice is to dive in to some area of s/w (or whatever) that you don't know at all (i.e. become a beginner) and see if that doesn't spark your excitement again. It does for me, over and over again!
In my opinion, you are just making excuses for why you are less productive than you should be; it's called rationalization. ;-)
My advice is to dive in to some area of s/w (or whatever) that you don't know at all (i.e. become a beginner) and see if that doesn't spark your excitement again. It does for me, over and over again!
If you're constantly a beginner, your productivity is not going to be high. That's a given.
I'm not sure why you thought I'd need your psychoanalysis or advice :) We have different neurobiology.
I've dived into new things many times. It's just not exciting to me the way it was when I was younger.
I'm not sure why you thought I'd need your psychoanalysis or advice :) We have different neurobiology.
I've dived into new things many times. It's just not exciting to me the way it was when I was younger.
I think you're depressed.
But, you're right: why should I care?
But, you're right: why should I care?
Perhaps- I dropped out of college to start my first venture. It folded unexpectedly early, and afterwards I found myself without another idea I found compelling enough to put 100% into. Rather than going back to school I decided to try my luck at seeing if I could get a day job, and while my lack of a degree definitely closed a couple doors, the failed startup experience was enough to get a few offers and a job at one of the big-name large companies. It turns out that even big companies will often see startup experience as more valuable, even if as in my case the startup folded alarmingly quickly.
The thinking about start-ups has shifted over the last few years so there is more awareness, and in certain places -- esp. Silicon Valley -- it can actually be a plus even if it folded. In other places, nobody wants to touch you if you've had a failed venture.
Ironically, without a diploma, your best options for getting a job at someone else's company happen to be in the same locations that are best for starting your own company regardless of diploma. Google probably won't hire you but another startup will, because they don't have diplomas, either! They just care if you are smart, and get things done.
Ironically, without a diploma, your best options for getting a job at someone else's company happen to be in the same locations that are best for starting your own company regardless of diploma. Google probably won't hire you but another startup will, because they don't have diplomas, either! They just care if you are smart, and get things done.
I went to community college for the first 60 credits, at $50/credit. I financed that with a part-time job and picking a college 2 miles from my parent's house. By the time I dropped out I was... gosh a couple grand positive, no credit cards & no debt.
Maybe I'm missng something, but at least the first couple years of college don't have to be $900/credit plus dorm plus xyz extravaganzas. You're taking mostly required crap like Science credits and English 2. At least that way if you decide college is not for you, you haven't mortgaged your future.
Maybe I'm missng something, but at least the first couple years of college don't have to be $900/credit plus dorm plus xyz extravaganzas. You're taking mostly required crap like Science credits and English 2. At least that way if you decide college is not for you, you haven't mortgaged your future.
I also went this path, and never ended up getting a degree worth noting. I'd recommend against it.
Sure, I've made a good living since then and have never had a hard time getting a job when I wanted one (I've mostly consulted and ran my own businesses), but there are a lot of opportunities closed off to me. I've gotten recruitment letters from Google, among others, based on my Open Source work and a book I wrote a few years back, but I suspect strongly (and with ample knowledge of the Google hiring process and requirements) I wouldn't actually be able to get a job at Google today (maybe three or four years ago, but the "elite university" bar has become far more important these days).
So, if I ever really wanted to try the everyday normal software developer lifestyle...ya know, go to work for about 40 hours each week, eat free food, enjoy subsidized massages, call the ergonomics team when my bottom feels funny in my chair, make enough money to buy big TVs and a Prius but not enough to buy property in the valley, etc. I almost certainly would not have that option. I could contract for any number of small and large businesses, and I have, but being an "employee" with all of the good and bad that comes with that, at any place where I would consider working, is unlikely.
Having those options is nice...at 18 or 19, it's hard to know exactly what one will want out of life. I'm content with the path I've taken, but I'm sure I wouldn't regret having spent my college years at a good school instead of screwing around at community college, either.
Sure, I've made a good living since then and have never had a hard time getting a job when I wanted one (I've mostly consulted and ran my own businesses), but there are a lot of opportunities closed off to me. I've gotten recruitment letters from Google, among others, based on my Open Source work and a book I wrote a few years back, but I suspect strongly (and with ample knowledge of the Google hiring process and requirements) I wouldn't actually be able to get a job at Google today (maybe three or four years ago, but the "elite university" bar has become far more important these days).
So, if I ever really wanted to try the everyday normal software developer lifestyle...ya know, go to work for about 40 hours each week, eat free food, enjoy subsidized massages, call the ergonomics team when my bottom feels funny in my chair, make enough money to buy big TVs and a Prius but not enough to buy property in the valley, etc. I almost certainly would not have that option. I could contract for any number of small and large businesses, and I have, but being an "employee" with all of the good and bad that comes with that, at any place where I would consider working, is unlikely.
Having those options is nice...at 18 or 19, it's hard to know exactly what one will want out of life. I'm content with the path I've taken, but I'm sure I wouldn't regret having spent my college years at a good school instead of screwing around at community college, either.
For a counterpoint...I worked for a year, went to an elite college, got a degree, and I'm not sure I'd recommend it either. Yeah, I could probably get hired at Google if I wanted, but I don't want to - and the rest of my resume isn't nearly as impressive as yours is.
If you're bright and independent-minded, the opportunity cost of that 4 years of college is huge. I did very little related to computers in those 4 years - I did get my degree in CS, and I worked on a large volunteer website, and I did a couple projects for my school, but I spent most of my time there as a physics major or trying out various liberal-arts classes. I graduated when I was 24. I have a friend that's 23, and he's currently maintaining 2 open source projects, formerly on another one (LiveJournal), has a good job in a specialized niche, previously had been a startup cofounder that went bust really quick, and has done webmonkey consulting for dozens of different organizations.
So I dunno. As you say, the problem is that it's impossible to tell ahead of time what you want out of life. When I was 20 and entering college, I sorta instinctively knew I wanted to be a startup software engineer (which is what I wanted at 19) yet told myself I wanted to be a theoretical physicist (which is what I wanted at 18) and went to a liberal arts school (which is what I wanted at 17). If it turns out you were wrong when you were young, then you thank your lucky stars that you went to that elite college and have many doors open before you. But if it turns out you were right, then you might be cursing yourself for the lost time spent hedging your bets instead of developing your specialty.
One other thing: doors do slam shut if you choose not to walk through them. I have friends who are in their late 20s or early 30s, straight-A alums of this elite college, and they've had a series of temp jobs because they couldn't decide what they wanted to do with their life. They're finding now that they're on the "no career" career. And while most of them are reasonably happy with their lives, they can't go back to the investment bank or biotech research lab or big software company that they turned down a job from upon graduation.
If you're bright and independent-minded, the opportunity cost of that 4 years of college is huge. I did very little related to computers in those 4 years - I did get my degree in CS, and I worked on a large volunteer website, and I did a couple projects for my school, but I spent most of my time there as a physics major or trying out various liberal-arts classes. I graduated when I was 24. I have a friend that's 23, and he's currently maintaining 2 open source projects, formerly on another one (LiveJournal), has a good job in a specialized niche, previously had been a startup cofounder that went bust really quick, and has done webmonkey consulting for dozens of different organizations.
So I dunno. As you say, the problem is that it's impossible to tell ahead of time what you want out of life. When I was 20 and entering college, I sorta instinctively knew I wanted to be a startup software engineer (which is what I wanted at 19) yet told myself I wanted to be a theoretical physicist (which is what I wanted at 18) and went to a liberal arts school (which is what I wanted at 17). If it turns out you were wrong when you were young, then you thank your lucky stars that you went to that elite college and have many doors open before you. But if it turns out you were right, then you might be cursing yourself for the lost time spent hedging your bets instead of developing your specialty.
One other thing: doors do slam shut if you choose not to walk through them. I have friends who are in their late 20s or early 30s, straight-A alums of this elite college, and they've had a series of temp jobs because they couldn't decide what they wanted to do with their life. They're finding now that they're on the "no career" career. And while most of them are reasonably happy with their lives, they can't go back to the investment bank or biotech research lab or big software company that they turned down a job from upon graduation.
I find it hard to believe you haven't learned anything in two years. Unless you're a genius, you're probably not approaching it the right way.
As for student loans, I had a 16 month internship between 3rd and 4th years of university that paid well, so that allowed me to cover my loans from the first three years, get a ton of experience and save up for 4th year. I graduated without debt and some money in the bank, but the price was, a living very cheaply for a very long time. For example, I am 24 and I still don't own a car - that's more cheaply that many people can tolerate...
As for student loans, I had a 16 month internship between 3rd and 4th years of university that paid well, so that allowed me to cover my loans from the first three years, get a ton of experience and save up for 4th year. I graduated without debt and some money in the bank, but the price was, a living very cheaply for a very long time. For example, I am 24 and I still don't own a car - that's more cheaply that many people can tolerate...
The first two years are typically gen ed and are often not aligned with a student's particular interests. This can make someone feel like it's a waste of time. If they feel that way, then they aren't going to be in a receptive state for learning, even though technically the material is new to them -- it holds no interest.
"If the colleges were better, if they really had it, you would need to get the police at the gates to keep order in the inrushing multitude. See in college how we thwart the natural love of learning by leaving the natural method of teaching what each wishes to learn, and insisting that you shall learn what you have no taste or capacity for. The college, which should be a place of delightful labour, is made odious and unhealthy, and the young men are tempted to frivolous amusements to rally their jaded spirits. I would have the studies elective. Scholarship is to be created not by compulsion, but by awakening a pure interest in knowledge. The wise instructor accomplishes this by opening to his pupils precisely the attractions the study has for himself. The marking is a system for schools, not for the college; for boys, not for men; and it is an ungracious work to put on a professor." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"If the colleges were better, if they really had it, you would need to get the police at the gates to keep order in the inrushing multitude. See in college how we thwart the natural love of learning by leaving the natural method of teaching what each wishes to learn, and insisting that you shall learn what you have no taste or capacity for. The college, which should be a place of delightful labour, is made odious and unhealthy, and the young men are tempted to frivolous amusements to rally their jaded spirits. I would have the studies elective. Scholarship is to be created not by compulsion, but by awakening a pure interest in knowledge. The wise instructor accomplishes this by opening to his pupils precisely the attractions the study has for himself. The marking is a system for schools, not for the college; for boys, not for men; and it is an ungracious work to put on a professor." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
If you haven't learned anything in 2 years, you are being a lazy bastard and not applying yourself. First, you should have gone and talked to your advisor, and been like: "Look, i'm bored as shit in these intro courses, can I jump ahead?". He'd be like sure, take this class, its super hard from what I hear. Then you'd be set. There is so much shit to be learned at school. If you know so much already, try to do some research for a prof. Or setup your own research course so that you can research your own shit.
Also, bitching about general ed requirements is also a copout. You usually don't have to take psych 101 to fulfill requirements. Any 200+ level class will be much more challenging and interesting. You just have to have the balls to take higher level coursework.
Also, bitching about general ed requirements is also a copout. You usually don't have to take psych 101 to fulfill requirements. Any 200+ level class will be much more challenging and interesting. You just have to have the balls to take higher level coursework.
Yea, I agree. You shouldn't think about it as a quantitative thing, like "I expected to learn 12 things this semester." If nothing else, you've learned how to deal with projects you don't exactly enjoy. You've also learned how to network with others and how to present yourself in front of a group, hopefully. At least those are some of the "soft skills" I've learned outside of the course curriculums.
As far as debating whether or not to drop out, I always figured you should have something to drop out for _prior_ to dropping out. Don't just drop out and then look to start something. Drop out because your "something" is taking more time than school.
As far as debating whether or not to drop out, I always figured you should have something to drop out for _prior_ to dropping out. Don't just drop out and then look to start something. Drop out because your "something" is taking more time than school.
I took a semester between HS and college to move back to the US (I was in south america). Best move ever since I was on the fence about school and working with my uncle at a sewer and drain cleaning business (and plumbing too) gave me a great reality check.
I then went to a state school where, except for one semester, I worked full time and school full time for 2.5 years (1 $4,500 student loan only and about $2k in credit card debt + a car loan). I got an offer for a $35k a year job in Dallas through a friend and quit my $7.50 an hour job the next week.
Took another semester off and then continued taking classes in the evenings and weekends at a community college and local commuter college.
When I finally graduated it was basically a non-event for me (didn't walk or send announcements) since I realixed I'd just paid $30k for a piece of paper that is a one liner on my resume and that really didn't teach me much.
So, like I tell lots of people these days, take the basics at a community college, take the upper level classes at a college and just get the paper since unless you're going into the hedge fund business or med/law school noone cares about your grades, just that you have a degree.
Of course if you own your own business, noone cares about a degree :)
I then went to a state school where, except for one semester, I worked full time and school full time for 2.5 years (1 $4,500 student loan only and about $2k in credit card debt + a car loan). I got an offer for a $35k a year job in Dallas through a friend and quit my $7.50 an hour job the next week.
Took another semester off and then continued taking classes in the evenings and weekends at a community college and local commuter college.
When I finally graduated it was basically a non-event for me (didn't walk or send announcements) since I realixed I'd just paid $30k for a piece of paper that is a one liner on my resume and that really didn't teach me much.
So, like I tell lots of people these days, take the basics at a community college, take the upper level classes at a college and just get the paper since unless you're going into the hedge fund business or med/law school noone cares about your grades, just that you have a degree.
Of course if you own your own business, noone cares about a degree :)
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Not sure why you havent done useful things already, there's a ton of things you can do as a student, and IMO, dropping out should not be one of them. Why didnt you be a part of an open source project? Why didnt you write useful little applications for yourself? Why not try and get an internship? The problem with dropping out is, if things go bad with your buisness, you dont have the cushion of getting a regular job, all you are left with is the scars of a failed buisness, all your friends in good jobs, no college degree and not sure of income and the lack of social life you have as a result of all this.
It really depends on what you mean by "school." There's an almost incomparable qualitative difference between Stanford (or Harvard, my alma mater) and your local community college, if you're talking about a CS degree.
But college these days is pretty much a waste of time, except as a trade school (even Stanford or Harvard, to be brutally realistic). Everything else has been so compromised by the everything-is-relative PC mush-heads that it's not worth even $50/credit, much less nearly $2,000 at the big-name schools.
But college these days is pretty much a waste of time, except as a trade school (even Stanford or Harvard, to be brutally realistic). Everything else has been so compromised by the everything-is-relative PC mush-heads that it's not worth even $50/credit, much less nearly $2,000 at the big-name schools.
If you don't learn a single new thing, why don't you just continue school and do your business enadeavors at the same time. You should have plenty of time?
Geometric shielding. I stayed away from class except on test days.
Don't drop out though. I got pressured by a company to drop out and go work for them; I didn't do it and it turned out they went out of business anyway. Moreover, they knew they were headed to going out of business, but they still tried to convince me dropping out to work for them was a good idea. It's not.
Don't drop out though. I got pressured by a company to drop out and go work for them; I didn't do it and it turned out they went out of business anyway. Moreover, they knew they were headed to going out of business, but they still tried to convince me dropping out to work for them was a good idea. It's not.
I'm a high school student -- and I feel exactly the same way (I haven't learned many useful things.)
Work, network, and work more are what keeps me going.
Work, network, and work more are what keeps me going.
In order to escape the pressures of high school, I started a company. It was something I had control over. In order to escape the pressures of college, I graduated a year early. Then I wrote a book about the pressures of school!
> Then I wrote a book about the pressures of school!
I thought you write about how you got screwed by Zuckerberg.
I thought you write about how you got screwed by Zuckerberg.
I wrote some about Facebook, too, but the majority of the book is actually about school. The topics are related.
Are you allowed to take a leave of absence, without any penalty?
Depends on what kind of penalty you mean. I know at my university you can take a leave of absence for a semester with no academic penalty, but most people wouldn't do it because they're afraid of how it would look on a transcript/resume.
Have to watch out though if you have scholarships. Some of them have the equivalent of a self-destruct clause that can be triggered by taking just one semester off. In order to take a NASA internship for one semester, I had to get approval all the way to the top of the chain (president of the university) or I would have permanently lost my tuition scholarship. As it was, although I had administrative approval, when I came back the computer system automatically marked me as a "dropout" and I was blocked out of most log-ins. Took a year to get me reinstated in some of the systems.
How many of you were able to escape the student loan barrier in life and succeed after dropping out, if that's the route you took.