What I’ve Been Doing Since Quitting My Job(mtlynch.io)
mtlynch.io
What I’ve Been Doing Since Quitting My Job
https://mtlynch.io/since-quitting/
127 comments
It seems like you get a lot of your feeling of meaning and contentedness from social interaction. From what you’re saying about how travel, projects, etc don’t seem as fulfilling anymore, it really seems to me like you have some depressive tendencies.
I’m not a doctor, but just as a friend, I think you should really try to think of dealing with that existential sadness as a priority - not as an annoyance. Spending real time and energy towards improving your mental health could have real impact on every other aspect of your life.
I’m not a doctor, but just as a friend, I think you should really try to think of dealing with that existential sadness as a priority - not as an annoyance. Spending real time and energy towards improving your mental health could have real impact on every other aspect of your life.
2 books I recently read that point to social connection as essential to meaning and well-being are Lost Connections: Uncovering the Real Causes of Depression – and the Unexpected Solutions by Johann Hari, and Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging by Sebastian Junger.
Seconded! This post sounds a lot like me a while ago, and depression was definitely a factor.
Do you have any recommendations for dealing with 'existential sadness', as you put it?
> found it mostly extremely lonely to travel alone. Got sick of seeing the same things (this place's contemporary art museum, that place's famous church). Of course I saw some amazing things but I now think I agree with some happiness researcher who claims travel is best in short < 1 week bursts every few months.
If you don't make accidental friends and events on your travels, they'll become a chore. Learned it the hard way. I travelled, was fun, then learned to avoid the accidents only for traveling to become lonely.
How it works?
- Try hostels (there are hostels where you can get your own room).
- Starbucks and approach anything (same gender, other gender, different gender, animal?)
- Go to random events
- Avoid online tools (like tinder and such). They are a waste of time. Most of the woman expect that you are there for a quickie and have their guards up. Most people turn their guards off when the interaction is "natural".
- Avoid approaching in touristy areas. They are usually for groups, couples, family, etc... leads nowhere.
edit: also don't decline to talk to people you are otherwise not interested in. Most of my interesting interactions started this way. Talk to this, invite me to party, go out together, find new friends, etc...
You won't remember the monuments but you'll remember discussions and human-based interactions.
If you don't make accidental friends and events on your travels, they'll become a chore. Learned it the hard way. I travelled, was fun, then learned to avoid the accidents only for traveling to become lonely.
How it works?
- Try hostels (there are hostels where you can get your own room).
- Starbucks and approach anything (same gender, other gender, different gender, animal?)
- Go to random events
- Avoid online tools (like tinder and such). They are a waste of time. Most of the woman expect that you are there for a quickie and have their guards up. Most people turn their guards off when the interaction is "natural".
- Avoid approaching in touristy areas. They are usually for groups, couples, family, etc... leads nowhere.
edit: also don't decline to talk to people you are otherwise not interested in. Most of my interesting interactions started this way. Talk to this, invite me to party, go out together, find new friends, etc...
You won't remember the monuments but you'll remember discussions and human-based interactions.
I spent most of the last 5 years in Tokyo + traveling, mostly not working. Too bad we didn't run into each other. Happy to chat, have some suggestions. My email is in my profile.
Paul I think you've forgotten that you've removed your email from your profile. ;)
Pick up the guitar like I have been doing. I even wrote a quick article on how easy I’ve found it:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/learning-play-guitar-jay-paul...
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/learning-play-guitar-jay-paul...
Yup I picked up the bass guitar - incredible how quickly you can play most songs after half a dozen lessons and songsterr.com
>I agree with some happiness researcher who claims travel is best in short < 1 week bursts every few months.
Got a link to that?
Got a link to that?
Dan Ariely's research for example shows that duration has little effect on our memory of an event. Check his TED talks.
I'm also interested in this because a lot of nomads (especially levelsio) think that staying somewhere for a few days/weeks isn't great and its better to stay somewhere for 6 months or so
Definitely weeks: days and then moving is tiring imho. And not productive. Months I find too long. Probably based on personal taste a lot as well.
And for nomads perhaps taxes; staying 6 months can be dangerous in some cases; even 60 days consecutive for some countries.
And for nomads perhaps taxes; staying 6 months can be dangerous in some cases; even 60 days consecutive for some countries.
Your post reminds me a lot of my own experience. I am quite socially anxious, which is a serious barrier to having 'enough' social interaction so as not to feel isolated. Meanwhile, I feel that my time is not spent doing something worthwhile, whatever that is. I am employed and in no position to take a longer break away from having to pay the bills, but if I won the lottery tomorrow I'm pretty sure I would struggle to find something to do that was meaningful. Anyway I hope that you find a way to feel a bit less shit.
Have you entertained the idea of settling down with a significant other? From what you shared, it seems like your problems stem from a lack of purpose outside of work and wealth building.
If you’re in one place for a year, try volunteering as an EMT.
Gain some different skills, meet good people and get a different life experience.
Hey greggman,
Drop me line if you want to commiserate!
I wonder if teaching would be appealing to you.
Are you married? Seems you have plenty of time.
I am glad at least someone is honest. So sick of hearing "This worked out so great" and then everyone shitting on the nay-sayers.
Once you finally break free of the office/corporate mentality, suddenly the world opens up. The possibilities are so vast (but not all possibilities mean income).
Breaking free from the golden handcuffs (or in my case, aluminum handcuffs), you start to realize that high income and lots of stuff really doesn't matter as much as experiences. And then you might even consider doing work that doesn't leverage your brain and career experience. That's actually freeing, because it means you're allowed to go do a manual labor job for a week if you want to. You stop comparing effective hourly rates (which usually suck you back into a corporate or consulting world).
I envy the people who are born into entrepreneurial families. They may or may not go to college, but they usually do not start with the idea of "I go learn X in school so I can get a high paying job doing X". Instead, they seem more likely to seize opportunities with an expectation of success rather than a pessimistic view of cost/benefit. They will surely have more thin times, but they also have much greater chance of both hitting it big (selling a company) as well as actually filling their years with interesting experiences.
Breaking free from the golden handcuffs (or in my case, aluminum handcuffs), you start to realize that high income and lots of stuff really doesn't matter as much as experiences. And then you might even consider doing work that doesn't leverage your brain and career experience. That's actually freeing, because it means you're allowed to go do a manual labor job for a week if you want to. You stop comparing effective hourly rates (which usually suck you back into a corporate or consulting world).
I envy the people who are born into entrepreneurial families. They may or may not go to college, but they usually do not start with the idea of "I go learn X in school so I can get a high paying job doing X". Instead, they seem more likely to seize opportunities with an expectation of success rather than a pessimistic view of cost/benefit. They will surely have more thin times, but they also have much greater chance of both hitting it big (selling a company) as well as actually filling their years with interesting experiences.
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Once you finally break free of the startup/entrepreneurial mentality, suddenly the world opens up. The possibilities are so vast (but not all possibilities mean freedom).
Breaking free from the gold rush (or in my case, app rush), you start to realize that huge exits and lots of users really doesn't matter as much as comfort and stability. And then you might even consider doing work that doesn't give you equity or has potential for huge payoffs. That's actually freeing, because it means you're allowed to do your job, then go home and relax. You stop thinking about how much work you could get done if you weren’t relaxing (which usually sucks you back to a computer to chip away at a never ending todo list).
I envy the people who are simply happy in serving others. They may or may not become super wealthy or travel as much, but they usually do not start with the idea of “the only work worth doing is for a company I own”. Instead, they seem more likely to take jobs with an expectation of being useful rather than an egotistical view of time/benefit. They will surely have more boring times, but they also have much greater chance of both being happy (living a normal life) as well as actually filling their years with meaningful accomplishments.
Breaking free from the gold rush (or in my case, app rush), you start to realize that huge exits and lots of users really doesn't matter as much as comfort and stability. And then you might even consider doing work that doesn't give you equity or has potential for huge payoffs. That's actually freeing, because it means you're allowed to do your job, then go home and relax. You stop thinking about how much work you could get done if you weren’t relaxing (which usually sucks you back to a computer to chip away at a never ending todo list).
I envy the people who are simply happy in serving others. They may or may not become super wealthy or travel as much, but they usually do not start with the idea of “the only work worth doing is for a company I own”. Instead, they seem more likely to take jobs with an expectation of being useful rather than an egotistical view of time/benefit. They will surely have more boring times, but they also have much greater chance of both being happy (living a normal life) as well as actually filling their years with meaningful accomplishments.
Is it just me or is this style of comment, where you replicate someone else's comment and change some words to make them appear foolish, tremendously irritating and not conducive to good discussion?
Imagine having a conversation in person where someone parrots back your phrases changing a few nouns. Would you do that?
It is also such a derivative style of commenting, I've seen it many times on HN and I wish people would not recycle it any further.
Imagine having a conversation in person where someone parrots back your phrases changing a few nouns. Would you do that?
It is also such a derivative style of commenting, I've seen it many times on HN and I wish people would not recycle it any further.
>Is it just me or is this style of comment, where you replicate someone else's comment and change some words to make them appear foolish, tremendously irritating and not conducive to good discussion?
It is useful in some contexts, but pointless in this one. Where I think it is useful is where the original person is stringing together a set of statements which (s)he then claims leads to a conclusion (when it doesn't). So you then construct a similar set of statements, string them together, and make the opposite conclusion. Or string together the opposite statements and make the same conclusion. Presumably the original person will not agree with the conclusion, and the hope is that it becomes apparent that as a result, his original set of statements do not lead to his claimed conclusion. It's hard for that person to debunk your statement without pointing out the flaws in his own logic.
In this case, the original commenter wasn't trying to make a point - just expressing his opinion. It makes no sense to use the tactic here.
It is useful in some contexts, but pointless in this one. Where I think it is useful is where the original person is stringing together a set of statements which (s)he then claims leads to a conclusion (when it doesn't). So you then construct a similar set of statements, string them together, and make the opposite conclusion. Or string together the opposite statements and make the same conclusion. Presumably the original person will not agree with the conclusion, and the hope is that it becomes apparent that as a result, his original set of statements do not lead to his claimed conclusion. It's hard for that person to debunk your statement without pointing out the flaws in his own logic.
In this case, the original commenter wasn't trying to make a point - just expressing his opinion. It makes no sense to use the tactic here.
It is a fairly common way to show the opposite (or near opposite) opinion has a weight of its own. It works best when the the original comment is extreme and definitive. It is also not a half bad way to do a self critique of what you are writing to see if you are pushing (although, I must admit when I'm pushing I'm probably not in the mood for self critique :( )
I don’t thunk it makes the OP appear foolish.
The replace-the-word technique facilitated seeing the argument from a different perspective.
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When done right, it is quite enlightening.
The not-snarky version is "should you reverse any advice you hear?" http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/24/should-you-reverse-any-...
You need to use the right commenting style for the right situations.
This particular style of comment is best used when you want to emphasize that what a person just said is only one perspective and that there exists an equally valid opposing perspective. It works even better if the original post was written with a tone of superiority, though it’s not required. It wouldn’t be surprising to find it commonly used on HN.
This particular style of comment is best used when you want to emphasize that what a person just said is only one perspective and that there exists an equally valid opposing perspective. It works even better if the original post was written with a tone of superiority, though it’s not required. It wouldn’t be surprising to find it commonly used on HN.
You could also just write a regular comment arguing that point. Your approach risks coming across as condescending, and depends upon the reader having the patience to read essentially the exact same comment twice, keeping an eye out for whatever clever substitutions were made.
edit: that being said, I'm more than happy to move on. To each their own
edit: that being said, I'm more than happy to move on. To each their own
It is quite possible that one may judge a statement as being superior when in fact it was not written as such. In that case, the reader could perhaps have some other emotion (inferiority?) coloring their perception.
Who is to say how the echo style of reply is generally seen, but I find it snarky. It seems less like saying, "I have a quite alternate point of view" and more like saying, "the originally presented view is backwards - here let me show you".
But this is all meta, and HN isn't a forum for us to be debating communication skills. Doing so is more futile amongst a group often known for lacking in communication skills in inverse proportion to their intellectual skills.
Who is to say how the echo style of reply is generally seen, but I find it snarky. It seems less like saying, "I have a quite alternate point of view" and more like saying, "the originally presented view is backwards - here let me show you".
But this is all meta, and HN isn't a forum for us to be debating communication skills. Doing so is more futile amongst a group often known for lacking in communication skills in inverse proportion to their intellectual skills.
Complete tangent:
Most studies I’m familiar with find that intellectual skills and communications skills are very correlated (highly g-loaded) in the general population.
Your phrasing using “lacking” and “inverse proportion” could actually be interpreted as agreeing with that in a circuitous fashion, but the rest of the tone makes me think your “lacking” was an editing mistake, you meant the two skills are inversely correlated (apologies if I misunderstood your intent).
But you may be right that HN appeals to the outliers whose communication skills/maturity/desire for internet points don’t match the general population.
Most studies I’m familiar with find that intellectual skills and communications skills are very correlated (highly g-loaded) in the general population.
Your phrasing using “lacking” and “inverse proportion” could actually be interpreted as agreeing with that in a circuitous fashion, but the rest of the tone makes me think your “lacking” was an editing mistake, you meant the two skills are inversely correlated (apologies if I misunderstood your intent).
But you may be right that HN appeals to the outliers whose communication skills/maturity/desire for internet points don’t match the general population.
>But this is all meta, and HN isn't a forum for us to be debating communication skills.
It's as important as any in society, as well as the workplace. You're generally not going to get very far with technical brilliance alone.
>Doing so is more futile amongst a group often known for lacking in communication skills in inverse proportion to their intellectual skills.
Given the number of submissions on the topic in the last month or two, I think the HN crowd would disagree with you.
It's as important as any in society, as well as the workplace. You're generally not going to get very far with technical brilliance alone.
>Doing so is more futile amongst a group often known for lacking in communication skills in inverse proportion to their intellectual skills.
Given the number of submissions on the topic in the last month or two, I think the HN crowd would disagree with you.
Not if it's got substance to it.
If it's sarcastic and rude, then yeah, but this wasn't that.
The other side of a coin is always bound to be the same size as the first side. A counter point to a point is necessarily similar, rhetorically, to the original point it's refuting.
Also, if you're wishing Internet conversations were more real, perhaps looking somewhere besides the Internet may benefit you Makerspaces have hackers, as do hackathon meetups, conventions, hell, sometimes libraries have resources for computer scientists or enthusiasts.
I like the hn format because of the density and accessibility. If I want to talk to another hacker in meat space I gotta go out, make an appointment with them, inevitably buy them coffee, survive the subway, it's inevitably late, so now this guy thinks I'm a jackass, and I have a urge in the back of my head to check my phone for hn while we are small talking before we can appropriately arrive at the twenty minute chat about whatever before doing the entire routine in reverse.
Or I can just read hn.
If it's sarcastic and rude, then yeah, but this wasn't that.
The other side of a coin is always bound to be the same size as the first side. A counter point to a point is necessarily similar, rhetorically, to the original point it's refuting.
Also, if you're wishing Internet conversations were more real, perhaps looking somewhere besides the Internet may benefit you Makerspaces have hackers, as do hackathon meetups, conventions, hell, sometimes libraries have resources for computer scientists or enthusiasts.
I like the hn format because of the density and accessibility. If I want to talk to another hacker in meat space I gotta go out, make an appointment with them, inevitably buy them coffee, survive the subway, it's inevitably late, so now this guy thinks I'm a jackass, and I have a urge in the back of my head to check my phone for hn while we are small talking before we can appropriately arrive at the twenty minute chat about whatever before doing the entire routine in reverse.
Or I can just read hn.
I feel this. This is my viewpoint as someone who cannot realistically afford an "entrepreneurial" lifestyle. Similarly, I'd rather not see my savings dwindle every month rather than grow. I feel that concern only goes away when you are practically-speaking rich or FIRE.
When I see people talking about entrepreneurship on HN or quitting their X job to do Y project, I feel no different than it being the "minimalist lifestyle" of tech. All this talk about how it's freeing you of all these things that tie you down and what not but it's only "freeing" because you're rich AF.
This article read like: "I'm a rich dude who worked at Big X and went to an Ivy League university. Fuck being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. I live in one of the most expensive and desirable cities in the world. I'm gonna do whatever I want with my ridiculously large savings and I hope to make even more money with whatever I come up with! I'll probably go back to another FAANG if this doesn't pan out in a year and say I did some seriously cool stuff on my resume. I'll get an even bigger package. Wooooo!"
Ugh.
When I see people talking about entrepreneurship on HN or quitting their X job to do Y project, I feel no different than it being the "minimalist lifestyle" of tech. All this talk about how it's freeing you of all these things that tie you down and what not but it's only "freeing" because you're rich AF.
This article read like: "I'm a rich dude who worked at Big X and went to an Ivy League university. Fuck being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. I live in one of the most expensive and desirable cities in the world. I'm gonna do whatever I want with my ridiculously large savings and I hope to make even more money with whatever I come up with! I'll probably go back to another FAANG if this doesn't pan out in a year and say I did some seriously cool stuff on my resume. I'll get an even bigger package. Wooooo!"
Ugh.
Trust me, there are a whole lot of entrepreneurs not like the ex-Google "I'm self-funded for several years" types.
I'm definitely not rich, and there are some months when I'm not sure I'll make it; but somehow I do, and then there are other months where things work out better than I expected.
But when I walk out of my house and go where I want, when I want, while most of the rest of the people are told when and where to be, I feel free. And when I do work for a client from a hotel room in the Caribbean, after my day of scuba diving, I feel pretty great.
If I continued with my old way of "every job must pay more than the last", I would still be in the oil business, in an office every day. Instead, I now see how much I was wasting on a new car, daily driving commute (time and gas), eating out because I'm too exhausted after a day in the office to cook when I get home, etc... turns out I don't need nearly as much money to live on as I did when I was working for $$.
I'm definitely not rich, and there are some months when I'm not sure I'll make it; but somehow I do, and then there are other months where things work out better than I expected.
But when I walk out of my house and go where I want, when I want, while most of the rest of the people are told when and where to be, I feel free. And when I do work for a client from a hotel room in the Caribbean, after my day of scuba diving, I feel pretty great.
If I continued with my old way of "every job must pay more than the last", I would still be in the oil business, in an office every day. Instead, I now see how much I was wasting on a new car, daily driving commute (time and gas), eating out because I'm too exhausted after a day in the office to cook when I get home, etc... turns out I don't need nearly as much money to live on as I did when I was working for $$.
This is what I find is most annoying - the traditional "more money more problems." I actually had the most savings I've ever had in my life while I was a student on $15k a year Government benefits.
Every payrise I've gotten has just gone into more mundane crap - more booze, more expensive food, more spontaneous frivolous holidays...
Every payrise I've gotten has just gone into more mundane crap - more booze, more expensive food, more spontaneous frivolous holidays...
That's entirely a discipline and planning problem.
I doubled my income, downgraded my lifestyle and now I am sitting on a 49.5% savings rate on my take home pay. No car, I budget to eat out twice per month and even the food I eat I prepare myself.
My girlfriend also doubled her income, but has since doubled her expenses and not saved an extra dime. What has she spent it on? Clothing, jewelry, expensive organic food, new pet, etc.
Consider even getting a room mate if you want to save more.
I doubled my income, downgraded my lifestyle and now I am sitting on a 49.5% savings rate on my take home pay. No car, I budget to eat out twice per month and even the food I eat I prepare myself.
My girlfriend also doubled her income, but has since doubled her expenses and not saved an extra dime. What has she spent it on? Clothing, jewelry, expensive organic food, new pet, etc.
Consider even getting a room mate if you want to save more.
You've only got one life, unless you have some strong beliefs, and if you calculate the weeks remaining assuming a lifespan of around 80... You can understand the reasoning of your girlfriend. Taking a step back, people are different. I'd rather slave away in a 9 to 5 than not be able to do things I enjoy, like taking advantage of good restaurants I can walk to.
I'd say that breaking free of either mentality is equally important. Everyone should recognize the choices they have in their careers, and in tech we have quite the choices indeed. At least for the time being, it's possible for skilled workers to join a company paying extremely high wages, but also to leave said company to pursue a big idea or to take a sabbatical.
While we praise companies for effectively pivoting after building a product that didn't seem right, we should also recognize that we too can pivot if we feel dissatisfied spending time in an office or if we feel a desire to join a team taking on a hard problem.
While we praise companies for effectively pivoting after building a product that didn't seem right, we should also recognize that we too can pivot if we feel dissatisfied spending time in an office or if we feel a desire to join a team taking on a hard problem.
Kudos to Michael for keeping busy with projects.
I quit my job 6 months ago. Gave myself 6 months to see if I would descend into complacent procrastination, and if so - I'd find another job. Having no job, but enough saving to rely on, has been a blessing. I've learned so many things from creative writing to deep learning, wrote a lot of personal essays, biked for 500miles, and did some side projects. Having one unsuccessful attempt at a startup convinced me that this is a much preferable route to getting back to salaried employment. The learning is a lot more, and there is a higher potential for payoff.
I quit my job 6 months ago. Gave myself 6 months to see if I would descend into complacent procrastination, and if so - I'd find another job. Having no job, but enough saving to rely on, has been a blessing. I've learned so many things from creative writing to deep learning, wrote a lot of personal essays, biked for 500miles, and did some side projects. Having one unsuccessful attempt at a startup convinced me that this is a much preferable route to getting back to salaried employment. The learning is a lot more, and there is a higher potential for payoff.
I'm seriously thinking of doing this myself. I have a date set, I have concrete plans. I want to create some side products and get some passive income and learn new things.
My biggest fear though, is that when I do look for work again, people will say: "That's great that you took that time to learn, I can see that you learned a lot of valuable skills, we want you to be part of our team! -- here's some poorly thought out features we want you to hack into our shitty CRUD app".
My biggest fear though, is that when I do look for work again, people will say: "That's great that you took that time to learn, I can see that you learned a lot of valuable skills, we want you to be part of our team! -- here's some poorly thought out features we want you to hack into our shitty CRUD app".
That's kinda like talking yourself out of going on vacation because when you come back you won't be on vacation anymore. Do it for the experience, for the learning, for the growth - don't do it for what happens after.
Thanks for that advice. I think you're right, I'm thinking to far ahead about something that might or might not happen.
Where did you bike?
From Medford, OR to San Francisco along the coast, but skipped a section before Crescent City due to advice of it being dangerous to cycle through. I put some photos at #or2ca17
cool - I've done that route as well. care to expand on the 'advice of it being dangerous'?
Cave Junction to Crescent city is a narrow two lane road with high cliffs/drops on each side, and a tunnel, with semi-trucks taking that route (I was told). I opted for a shuttle for that section after looking it up on Google StreetView - http://oregon-point.com/southwest-point/
Thanks for reading!
It sounds like we had similar experiences. I agree that the biggest benefit has been the freedom to explore my interests. At Google, I always wanted to get deeper into machine learning, but I felt pressure to lean into my strengths so that I could deliver something and get promoted rather than slow down and learn something new.
Now that I'm on my own, I do still feel pressure to release something, but it's also a lot easier for me to control the pace and devote more time to learning because I'm on my own roadmap.
It sounds like we had similar experiences. I agree that the biggest benefit has been the freedom to explore my interests. At Google, I always wanted to get deeper into machine learning, but I felt pressure to lean into my strengths so that I could deliver something and get promoted rather than slow down and learn something new.
Now that I'm on my own, I do still feel pressure to release something, but it's also a lot easier for me to control the pace and devote more time to learning because I'm on my own roadmap.
Hey Michael - if you don't mind sharing, which team did you work on and why did you feel the pressure to lean into strengths instead of learning something new? Could it be that this was just your perspective on it at the moment? The alternate perspective that I see is that learning something new pays off into the future even though it may not feel like you're moving somewhere at the moment. Did existing responsibilities require too much bandwidth that it made attempts at fitting in any learning a daunting endeavor?
Additionally, did you feel that you had the freedom to learn and apply ML?
Additionally, did you feel that you had the freedom to learn and apply ML?
Most of my time was on Google Maps.
The reason it was hard to slow down and learn was that promotions were so difficult to get. You can only apply every six months, and so many stars have to align in your favor to get promoted and so many things can derail it. Your project can get cancelled. Your project can flop even if you personally did everything right. One of your senior teammates (whose word carries a lot of weight with the promotion committee) can leave the company.
It was so hard to get promoted when I was trying to get promoted that I felt like if I wasn't focused on promotion, I'd just never get a promotion.
I wrote a longer post about this a few months ago:
https://mtlynch.io/why-i-quit-google/
>Additionally, did you feel that you had the freedom to learn and apply ML?
I theoretically had freedom to learn and apply ML, but it would have been at the expense of my career. For example, my last major project was to launch a new ML pipeline in six months (it sounds like a long time, but it's really hard to do this with all of Google's bleeding edge infrastructure and bureaucracy). I was leading a team with two other developers, both of whom had graduate degrees in ML-focused subjects. I could theoretically have assigned myself more of the ML work, but the most likely way for us to meet our deadline was to let my teammates handle the deep ML work while I did more infrastructure work.
The reason it was hard to slow down and learn was that promotions were so difficult to get. You can only apply every six months, and so many stars have to align in your favor to get promoted and so many things can derail it. Your project can get cancelled. Your project can flop even if you personally did everything right. One of your senior teammates (whose word carries a lot of weight with the promotion committee) can leave the company.
It was so hard to get promoted when I was trying to get promoted that I felt like if I wasn't focused on promotion, I'd just never get a promotion.
I wrote a longer post about this a few months ago:
https://mtlynch.io/why-i-quit-google/
>Additionally, did you feel that you had the freedom to learn and apply ML?
I theoretically had freedom to learn and apply ML, but it would have been at the expense of my career. For example, my last major project was to launch a new ML pipeline in six months (it sounds like a long time, but it's really hard to do this with all of Google's bleeding edge infrastructure and bureaucracy). I was leading a team with two other developers, both of whom had graduate degrees in ML-focused subjects. I could theoretically have assigned myself more of the ML work, but the most likely way for us to meet our deadline was to let my teammates handle the deep ML work while I did more infrastructure work.
I did this five years ago. The point that most resonated with me is control over one's time which leads to true agency.
The hardest thing is just finding routine. Freedom via constraints is a great thing. Once I started to plan out my entire day (and then week), my productivity skyrocketed.
Agreed. For me it’s been forcing myself to the habit of getting stuff done from 8 am to 12 pm. After that it’s anyrhing else but serious deep work. I’m ok with 4 hours.
I liked reading this blog post and found it interesting as this is something I'm looking to do eventually.
Also, is it only me that have such a boring life? or normal people don't have that issue to have too many emails/notifications to respond to? How many people contact you, seriously?
But I have a mini-rant about all those blog-posts with subjects such as "Why I decided to quit Google", or "Why I'm leaving for a startup after being a boss at Facebook for X years".
Those blog post usually always reiterate that the "Smartest people in the world" work at those companies and that it is the "Best job in the world". Sometimes a little bit less arrogance and namedropping would be a good thing.
Also, is it only me that have such a boring life? or normal people don't have that issue to have too many emails/notifications to respond to? How many people contact you, seriously?
But I have a mini-rant about all those blog-posts with subjects such as "Why I decided to quit Google", or "Why I'm leaving for a startup after being a boss at Facebook for X years".
Those blog post usually always reiterate that the "Smartest people in the world" work at those companies and that it is the "Best job in the world". Sometimes a little bit less arrogance and namedropping would be a good thing.
Knew I recognized this guy from the greenPi post he made. I'm a sucker for posts about raspberry pi task automation.
If anything he is extremely good at getting some buzz around things he is working on and deriving value from having worked at Google.
If anything he is extremely good at getting some buzz around things he is working on and deriving value from having worked at Google.
I followed him down the Sia rabbit hole and found he was the only person this side of the hemisphere to get a Sia node running off a Synology NAS (and who could explain it in Layman's terms).
One of the smarter ones out there.
One of the smarter ones out there.
Author here. Happy to answer any questions about this post.
Thanks, I liked your post but couldn't help but feel a bit jealous. I've seen a few of your other blog posts before and really liked them. Have you still been working with Sia? What are your thoughts on Filecoin or other alternatives? You're one of the few people with any understanding of this, what are the barriers preventing adoption and even lower prices? Have you read or contributed to the source code?
Was that too many questions?
Was that too many questions?
Thanks for reading!
>Have you still been working with Sia?
Not really anymore. It's hard to walk away because I have so much fun experimenting with Sia, but I don't think I can really make a living doing anything with Sia. My Sia blog had a dedicated, enthusiastic following, but the niche is so small that the following was like 50 people.
>What are your thoughts on Filecoin or other alternatives?
I haven't looked too deeply into Filecoin. I read their whitepaper, but I feel like it's hard to really grasp before I have software I can actually run. They still haven't published any code, just some whitepapers.
Filecoin has so much money and so many employees that it's plausible that they're working on something in secret that's going to blow everyone else away once it's released. But it's also possible that they've got nothing and they're going to release a $250M dud.
I think Storj is a trainwreck with almost zero chance of coming out of the decentralized storage game on top. They're not even really a decentralized storage project. They're an open source project that tells people they're decentralized to cash in on the trend towards decentralization.
>You're one of the few people with any understanding of this, what are the barriers preventing adoption and even lower prices?
The biggest barrier right now is how difficult it is for customers to store data on Sia.
I can sign up for AWS/GCP/Azure and have data in their clouds in ~15 minutes. With Sia, there are SO many steps just to start uploading data and the process is not documented well. Not only that, there are huge waits between steps. So it's like start Sia, wait 36 hours for the blockchain to sync, create a wallet, wait an hour for the wallet to initialize, unlock the wallet, wait 10 mins for wallet to unlock, and on and on.
Even after Sia is totally initialized and ready for use, it's still much harder than anything else to use. They don't yet support backup and recovery, so you're stuck uploading an additional copy of all your data to another cloud provider anyway. And then even in the remaining scenarios, there are no client libraries for using Sia, so you have to write a ton of boilerplate code to wrap HTTP calls to their API.
>Have you read or contributed to the source code?
I've read a lot of Sia's source code. I'm the #9 top contributor to their core codebase. Relative to other cryptocurrency projects, their code is good, but that's kind of a low bar. I think their code has been degrading over time. Their functions are getting much longer, more complicated, and depend on increasingly complex lock synchronization behavior. Their builds are broken about 50% of the time just due to flaky tests.
>Was that too many questions?
I'm ready for more!
>Have you still been working with Sia?
Not really anymore. It's hard to walk away because I have so much fun experimenting with Sia, but I don't think I can really make a living doing anything with Sia. My Sia blog had a dedicated, enthusiastic following, but the niche is so small that the following was like 50 people.
>What are your thoughts on Filecoin or other alternatives?
I haven't looked too deeply into Filecoin. I read their whitepaper, but I feel like it's hard to really grasp before I have software I can actually run. They still haven't published any code, just some whitepapers.
Filecoin has so much money and so many employees that it's plausible that they're working on something in secret that's going to blow everyone else away once it's released. But it's also possible that they've got nothing and they're going to release a $250M dud.
I think Storj is a trainwreck with almost zero chance of coming out of the decentralized storage game on top. They're not even really a decentralized storage project. They're an open source project that tells people they're decentralized to cash in on the trend towards decentralization.
>You're one of the few people with any understanding of this, what are the barriers preventing adoption and even lower prices?
The biggest barrier right now is how difficult it is for customers to store data on Sia.
I can sign up for AWS/GCP/Azure and have data in their clouds in ~15 minutes. With Sia, there are SO many steps just to start uploading data and the process is not documented well. Not only that, there are huge waits between steps. So it's like start Sia, wait 36 hours for the blockchain to sync, create a wallet, wait an hour for the wallet to initialize, unlock the wallet, wait 10 mins for wallet to unlock, and on and on.
Even after Sia is totally initialized and ready for use, it's still much harder than anything else to use. They don't yet support backup and recovery, so you're stuck uploading an additional copy of all your data to another cloud provider anyway. And then even in the remaining scenarios, there are no client libraries for using Sia, so you have to write a ton of boilerplate code to wrap HTTP calls to their API.
>Have you read or contributed to the source code?
I've read a lot of Sia's source code. I'm the #9 top contributor to their core codebase. Relative to other cryptocurrency projects, their code is good, but that's kind of a low bar. I think their code has been degrading over time. Their functions are getting much longer, more complicated, and depend on increasingly complex lock synchronization behavior. Their builds are broken about 50% of the time just due to flaky tests.
>Was that too many questions?
I'm ready for more!
This guy seems to have a lot of freedom to experiment. I am considering doing the same, but knuckle down on a single idea, born from identifying a real problem people are willing to pay for (enough to make a living).
how does he pay the bills? and how about health insurance?
This is a fundamental problem with Health Insurance being primarily tied to employment. Many older devs, with families to take care of, would experiment this way with health insurance better than what is currently available outside of employer-provided versions.
He worked at Google for four years.
This is the correct answer.
Yeah, I bet he has at least $1MM in liquid assets banked on top of what income he earns through his projects.
I assume you are being sarcastic. How do you put off $1M in assets with a $200k median salary in four years? $200k x 4 x 65% is just $520k without even any expenses paid such as the ~$72k you would have paid for a room in a shared apartment.
350k isn't uncommon for a senior SWE at Google. In a state with no income tax (such as WA), it's not unreasonable to estimate he takes home 250k (71%). Suppose he spends $60k a year, leaving him $190k/year to bank. Given the performance of the S&P 500 in the last four years, that could be a million today.
I don't know where these numbers come from. I made a gross salary of $140k the year I worked at Google as a senior engineer, and I made some extra money via 401k matching too. $190k would definitely have been more than my entire income, that's for sure. It's hard to imagine that salaries have more than doubled in the six years since then. And... spending only $60k a year, living in Seattle? Yeah, maybe if you live like a monk, or you really enjoy commuting in from distant suburbs.
$5000/month in Seattle is well more than doable. I live off <$4k in regular expenses, live alone in the bay area, and still drive a luxury car. When I was in Seattle, I lived off of $1000/month, lived on my own, and had my own car. That was about 4 years ago.
Google compensation is also incredibly high. $140k is less total comp than what many new grads get at Google.
Google compensation is also incredibly high. $140k is less total comp than what many new grads get at Google.
I was a senior swe in Seattle myself. The total comp range is enormous.
Despite my handle, I didn't exactly live like a monk. 2k a luxury high rise and 3k for everything else felt positively princely (though the city has become more expensive since I left).
Despite my handle, I didn't exactly live like a monk. 2k a luxury high rise and 3k for everything else felt positively princely (though the city has become more expensive since I left).
Did you forget that you have RSUs? $60K is plenty for a single person. Working for more than 1 years helps, too, if you sold your stock before it appreciated, since 4-year vest forces you to not sell for 1-3 more years.
I made as much money on Google RSUs as I've made on every other form of equity offered as part of a "total comp" package over the course of my career, which is to say, nada. Total comp is bullshit, no matter how enthusiastically the recruiters try to convince you otherwise; salary is all that matters.
Stupid question, but since Google is a public company couldn't you lock in a certain profit on your RSUs with options in a private account? Or are you talking about the restrictions on vesting are meant to make them worthless for most employees because they'll be forfeited on some draconian technicality before exercising?
I remember on Bogleheads people talking about how to reduce the risk of investing in something like an ESPP to avoid an Enron scenario, and the consensus was using options in a private account so that you get a definite payoff.
I remember on Bogleheads people talking about how to reduce the risk of investing in something like an ESPP to avoid an Enron scenario, and the consensus was using options in a private account so that you get a definite payoff.
I don't know what a "private account" is; I was referring to vesting restrictions.
Ah makes sense now. I thought you were referring to losing money on poor performance of the underlying stock between offer and exercise. "Private account" just meant buying put options in an account you control versus something like employer payroll deductions in an ESPP.
Why did you make nada? For many engineers senior and above, the RSU value is even greater than the salary.
Well, in addition to salary, he would have also gotten a bonus and stock. The bonus might be $50K/year, and then maybe another $100K/year in stock. The number of shares in the stock grant would have been computed at the date he started -- 5 years ago, GOOG was around $440/share, so at today's price, the shares would be worth $245K/year, assuming he held onto them as they vested.
So, that adds up to around $495K/year, or maybe $300K after tax. With $50K/year in expenses, you're left with $250K/year, or $1M over 4 years.
So, that adds up to around $495K/year, or maybe $300K after tax. With $50K/year in expenses, you're left with $250K/year, or $1M over 4 years.
You lose your unvested RSUs when you leave (so divide your RSU calculations by 2 to start with), and the later grants would be at higher prices and thus have experienced less growth, so your envelope math is off by enough to not be good envelope math.
On the other hand, $100k is by no means the largest RSU grant you can get, so, basically, we have no damn idea. Overall it’s pretty silly to speculate about someone’s net worth unless they’re excited to talk about it.
But the larger point that high performing senior engineers at megacorps can make way more than people outside the megacorp world imagine is true and surprisingly contoversial on HN.
On the other hand, $100k is by no means the largest RSU grant you can get, so, basically, we have no damn idea. Overall it’s pretty silly to speculate about someone’s net worth unless they’re excited to talk about it.
But the larger point that high performing senior engineers at megacorps can make way more than people outside the megacorp world imagine is true and surprisingly contoversial on HN.
The grant is normally over 4 years, so it would all have vested. And there's only one grant in question, so no higher prices to account for.
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those numbers are on the high side, but yes indeed.
Also all those calculations are completely forgetting that money is a time-sensitive value. If invested wisely, the first $ from 4 years ago would be 1.7$ today if invested into a typical low cost SP500
Also all those calculations are completely forgetting that money is a time-sensitive value. If invested wisely, the first $ from 4 years ago would be 1.7$ today if invested into a typical low cost SP500
Right? My blog post on the same subject would be more on the lines of "freak out about how to have a roof over my head next month and not have my family's health insurance cancelled..."
I'm guessing you don't have any savings or investments?
You might want to plan ahead more than your next pay check.
Investigate financial independence / retire early (FIRE.)
Yes I guess that works as long as a sudden bout of cancer or some other chronic illness doesn't turn your world around. Suddenly all the "plan to retire in X years" come into question. Will I be still living in X years? Will I be able to continue working and investing till then? Or will I have burn through all my savings? True financial independence doesn't come till you can weather such a storm and most people are not is such a position.
>Yes I guess that works as long as a sudden bout of cancer or some other chronic illness doesn't turn your world around.
What does this have to do with it? Insurance would cover it just the same as if you hadn't quit your job.
I also took a hiatus from working and meeting expenses has never even been a concern for me, despite dealing with some quite serious medical issues. During my hiatus, I am constantly dumbfounded by people's lack of understanding of how I'm not totally broke without a job. If you have even the most basic budgeting skills and have decent enough job that you aren't living paycheck-to-paycheck, saving up enough money to live off of for 6-12 months is pretty easy. I only had a moderate salary, live in a medium-to-high CoL area, and wasn't particularly thrifty (I still engaged in normal spending like taking international trips places, buying new things, had a decent apartment, etc), and over the course of a 3 years I easily was able to save up enough to be jobless for multiple years living off of those savings alone. And that includes maintaining my savings for retirement, too.
What does this have to do with it? Insurance would cover it just the same as if you hadn't quit your job.
I also took a hiatus from working and meeting expenses has never even been a concern for me, despite dealing with some quite serious medical issues. During my hiatus, I am constantly dumbfounded by people's lack of understanding of how I'm not totally broke without a job. If you have even the most basic budgeting skills and have decent enough job that you aren't living paycheck-to-paycheck, saving up enough money to live off of for 6-12 months is pretty easy. I only had a moderate salary, live in a medium-to-high CoL area, and wasn't particularly thrifty (I still engaged in normal spending like taking international trips places, buying new things, had a decent apartment, etc), and over the course of a 3 years I easily was able to save up enough to be jobless for multiple years living off of those savings alone. And that includes maintaining my savings for retirement, too.
If you expect to be dead at 40, you might not think your life was best spent working your tail off until 39 to "retire early".
What does that have to do with anything? I'm 27 and (f)unemployed.
Oh, I think I misread it. In this case I think the comment is actually saying that a plan to retire at 40 might be derailed by spending a couple years out of work in hospital at 28, thus losing your income at least temporarily and possibly spending your savings. A lot of this can be mitigated by having the right insurance, but once you aren't working it can be harder to afford insurance that will cover really good care.
What I was thinking of was that many people don't want to work very hard now to gain rewards later when there is a risk they won't live until later to enjoy it. So they do things like take a few years off at 27 and then go back to work until, say, 38, instead of working straight through until 34 and retiring permanently then.
What I was thinking of was that many people don't want to work very hard now to gain rewards later when there is a risk they won't live until later to enjoy it. So they do things like take a few years off at 27 and then go back to work until, say, 38, instead of working straight through until 34 and retiring permanently then.
Those things are obviously unfortunate, but relatively rare. It is also rare to win the lottery, or actually make a profit on startup stock options. I am not talking about these cases.
The average person in this industry makes good money, and should have the ability to save and invest some of their income.
The average person in this industry makes good money, and should have the ability to save and invest some of their income.
I would urge us all to not associate the odds of becoming genetically broken with the odds of winning the lottery.
Being a mammal more or less assures that if we live long enough (4x to 5x reproductive age) we will accumulate enough damage to have adverse events. This is multiple orders of magnitude more like than a life altering lottery win in the same time span.
There aren't many good investment options available these days.
Real estate is too expensive, interest rates on cash are too low and VCs have a monopoly on the startup space and the media.
The most rational option seems to be to invest in stocks... To fuel corporations which inflate real estate prices by forcing their employees to relocate to major urban centers. The same corporations which are responsible for the low interest rate environment (through their lobbying and corruption of government agencies). The same corporations which are responsible for monopolizing the startup space by only funding and acquiring incubator and VC-backed startups.
So yeah there aren't many ethical options. That's why I invest in cryptocurrency. I'd rather risk losing all the money than fund my own (and everyone else's) enslavement.
Real estate is too expensive, interest rates on cash are too low and VCs have a monopoly on the startup space and the media.
The most rational option seems to be to invest in stocks... To fuel corporations which inflate real estate prices by forcing their employees to relocate to major urban centers. The same corporations which are responsible for the low interest rate environment (through their lobbying and corruption of government agencies). The same corporations which are responsible for monopolizing the startup space by only funding and acquiring incubator and VC-backed startups.
So yeah there aren't many ethical options. That's why I invest in cryptocurrency. I'd rather risk losing all the money than fund my own (and everyone else's) enslavement.
I can't decide whether this is noble or simply pragmatic. Kudos, either way.
I wonder if there will be a trend towards bootstrapping?
I wonder if there will be a trend towards bootstrapping?
> Those things are obviously unfortunate, but relatively rare
Not rare at all, 1 in 5 Americans is being pursued by collection agencies for being unable to pay medical bills.
Not rare at all, 1 in 5 Americans is being pursued by collection agencies for being unable to pay medical bills.
That's good news. Since they're not paying their bills, they actually have more money to invest instead. ;)
You know what they say about lies and statistics... In all seriousness, even if this dubious statistic is true, most of those are not due to terminal or debilitating illnesses. "Unable to pay medical bills" can be for a variety of reasons, ranging from the obvious (not having the money), to confusion, to billing errors or insurance problems.
You know what they say about lies and statistics... In all seriousness, even if this dubious statistic is true, most of those are not due to terminal or debilitating illnesses. "Unable to pay medical bills" can be for a variety of reasons, ranging from the obvious (not having the money), to confusion, to billing errors or insurance problems.
In the US, it needn't be terminal nor debilitating to bankrupt you.
Bankruptcy is not the end of the world. It's an inconvenience for a few years.
It's certainly the end of the "hey I have so much money I don't even need to work" feeling of financial independence, though.
I can tell you’ve never been bankrupt.
wow, do you have a citation for that ?
Its not as rare as you think. Maybe 10% of cancer by your 40s. Much more likely than winning a lottery or making a ton in stock options.
There are all sorts of small chance disasters that can happen. You can be killed tomorrow in an auto accident. Don't live your life worrying about things unlikely to happen.
And no, I don't mean ignore the common-sense stuff like having life insurance if you have a family, etc.
And no, I don't mean ignore the common-sense stuff like having life insurance if you have a family, etc.
[deleted]
lol easy to say for those with cash
It's real tough getting cash in this industry, isn't it?
Start investing now. In 10 years you'll have a small fortune.
Not everyone earns Valley salaries. Especially not those outside the US in third-world countries.
And some, like myself had their life savings wiped out when life got cute.
Anyway, glad OP has the opportunity to do what he's doing. Didn't mean to sidetrack the conversation. Just always find it amazing how we all live in vastly different worlds.
And some, like myself had their life savings wiped out when life got cute.
Anyway, glad OP has the opportunity to do what he's doing. Didn't mean to sidetrack the conversation. Just always find it amazing how we all live in vastly different worlds.
[deleted]
money
disclaimer: i'm a health insurance broker
if you have non-poverty-level income, you can buy a policy for about $300-500 a month through most state exchanges
if you have poverty-level income (no stock dividends, no capital gains, havent worked w2 job in years), then you can qualify for Medicaid
another option is to open a 1-2 employee LLC or LLP and buy small group health insurance. typically these plans are about $5-7k a year and have somewhat reasonable deductibles and somewhat reasonable out of pocket maxes. at the very least, a $100,000 appendix surgery will only cost you $7,000 max, and then you are covered for all other medical expenses for the rest of the year
if you have non-poverty-level income, you can buy a policy for about $300-500 a month through most state exchanges
if you have poverty-level income (no stock dividends, no capital gains, havent worked w2 job in years), then you can qualify for Medicaid
another option is to open a 1-2 employee LLC or LLP and buy small group health insurance. typically these plans are about $5-7k a year and have somewhat reasonable deductibles and somewhat reasonable out of pocket maxes. at the very least, a $100,000 appendix surgery will only cost you $7,000 max, and then you are covered for all other medical expenses for the rest of the year
I'm living off savings from Google and jobs prior to Google.
Google had really high comp and I don't spend very much money outside of the fact that I live in Manhattan, so I have about 2-3 years of runway from that stockpile of savings.
My health insurance is $470 for a basic high deductible plan.
Google had really high comp and I don't spend very much money outside of the fact that I live in Manhattan, so I have about 2-3 years of runway from that stockpile of savings.
My health insurance is $470 for a basic high deductible plan.
I quit my job like two years ago to work in a project. There were bumps but overall really loving it and would recommend it to anyone.
I did see your other post and I appreciate this. I quit too and wrote about some stuff. Thank you for this.
Not a single mention of money, which means that this author has it (or plenty of it).
But big-ups to using a Surface!
But big-ups to using a Surface!
Nice catch on the Surface! I was trying to figure out how you knew I use one, then I remembered the cartoon.
It's actually a coincidence because I asked my cartoonist to draw a non-Apple laptop, though I didn't specifically say Surface. But she drew a Surface, and that is indeed what I use.
It's actually a coincidence because I asked my cartoonist to draw a non-Apple laptop, though I didn't specifically say Surface. But she drew a Surface, and that is indeed what I use.
Travelled: found it mostly extremely lonely to travel alone. Got sick of seeing the same things (this place's contemporary art museum, that place's famous church). Of course I saw some amazing things but I now think I agree with some happiness researcher who claims travel is best in short < 1 week bursts every few months.
Worked on personal projects. I do get some feeling of accomplishment but mostly I just feel lonely and isolated. At good jobs I had the camaraderie of close co-workers who became close friends and we really collaborated. I tried hanging out at cafes and coffee shops and that's better than staying home but not all that less isolating. The random people that show up are not people I talk to or become close to.
I don't feel "free" at all. I'm sure it's partly in my mind. I might also be age differences. I'm older and need to think about retirement I realize I can't just make any random decision because there isn't time to correct. I tell myself I don't feel free because I don't have enough money to never work again. I do have to do something that earns significant income (enough to retire in 10-12 years). If I did have enough to retire maybe I'd still not feel free like not having enough to do X where X is whatever (fund that project, whatever...) though maybe I'd feel free to do things and never worry about income (volunteer for various things?). Now I don't volunteer because that's not going to help me earn money to retire. I'm not sure I'd volunteer or not.
I'm pretty much completely lost at this point. No idea what I want to do anymore. I waste my days reading HN and browsing the net and working on personal projects that have no future prospects and answering questions on SO. I go to a meet up or 2 a week and that's about it.