US Immigration System Sucks, if you are a Founder(blog.mashape.com)
blog.mashape.com
US Immigration System Sucks, if you are a Founder
http://blog.mashape.com/us-immigration-system-sucks-if-you-are-a-foun-3
51 comments
> it seems equally hard for a day-labourer as a top-notch scientist to get in
A day laborer would probably have the easier time, if he has family in the US. The US system is a relic of a past era when the goal was quickly integrating hordes of unskilled laborers fresh off the boat. Speaking as a highly educated Canadian, I would sooner go anywhere else in the developed world before subjecting myself to US Immigration.
A day laborer would probably have the easier time, if he has family in the US. The US system is a relic of a past era when the goal was quickly integrating hordes of unskilled laborers fresh off the boat. Speaking as a highly educated Canadian, I would sooner go anywhere else in the developed world before subjecting myself to US Immigration.
I couldn't agree more... It's absolute lunacy that a student who has gone through an engineering PhD program, subsidized by US taxpayers and corporations via research grants, may not be able to stay in the US post-graduation. There should be a direct means of converting a student visa into a "path to citizenship." Instead, it appears our immigration system promotes the exact opposite, giving preference to unskilled workers through an amnesty every 10 years or so.
The STAPLE Act was/is meant to address Ph.D. graduates of US science/engineering schools, giving such a fast-track to permanent residence:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1791
Not clear when/if it will become law though.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1791
Not clear when/if it will become law though.
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They ask for a name and an email for permanent records. Not worthwhile for curiousity.
But reading the points offered, I realize that if I were not a Canadian citizen already, I wouldn't be allowed to immigrate into Canada. That's a little humbling.
But reading the points offered, I realize that if I were not a Canadian citizen already, I wouldn't be allowed to immigrate into Canada. That's a little humbling.
If you don't fill them in, they calculate your points anyway.
funny, when I came to San Francisco for Google I/O, the inspector didn't even care about the conferences, meetups that I will attend or my background (ongoing MSc), all he is interested in was whether am I planning to reunion with my girlfriend in States, why I buy a one way ticket, how much cash I have on me. One hint by the way, the inspector seems to be impressed by the book I was reading that time "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
Keep in mind that Canada has closed out the IT/Developer category for immigration, so even if if you qualify on points and you're in IT/Software Development, you cannot get in.
That's only for the provincial fast track essential jobs stream - the points based permanent residency doesn't care what job you do.
It seems that we're both right and wrong :D
If you have an arranged job offer, then it seems that they don't care what category you're in.
However, if you don't have an offer, then you have to have a skill/occupation that falls in this list http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who-ins...
However, if you don't have an offer, then you have to have a skill/occupation that falls in this list http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who-ins...
Having recently gone through the Developer category and being fast tracked, I'd like to comment on this. Basically, it really does speed things up. It takes a couple months being fast tracked. This was amazingly helpful. Removing the expediency only means that to get a visa, you need to get approval from an additional agency. Basically, it makes sure that the company offering you the job can't realistically fill your position with a local person. The idea is to ask "Why can't you fill this position with a Canadian?" This makes sense.
We went through that this last time, mostly through miscommunication, and the process was still very painless. It helps if you are specialized in a certain industry. You also need some form of degree in the field you are being hired for. Part of the reason I encourage people to continue their education and to make it clear self-taught doesn't open as many doors as education.
In the end, obtaining a Canadian visa is a straight forward process. The only assistance available covers everything you need, and walks you through. My wife did it for me, and we didn't even need a lawyer.
We went through that this last time, mostly through miscommunication, and the process was still very painless. It helps if you are specialized in a certain industry. You also need some form of degree in the field you are being hired for. Part of the reason I encourage people to continue their education and to make it clear self-taught doesn't open as many doors as education.
In the end, obtaining a Canadian visa is a straight forward process. The only assistance available covers everything you need, and walks you through. My wife did it for me, and we didn't even need a lawyer.
Can you elaborate a little more?
Did you have arranged employment or did you get in while the Developer category was still open?
Sure. I had both a job offer from an employer who scouted me, and I got in while the developer category was still open (I think it's still open, technically). However, during the process, my wife spoke to the border agents (these are the people who actually do the final approval), and they informed her I would also need what essentially amounted to a job offer check. Basically, something the company did to demonstrate that the existing local job marketing couldn't support the position, and why my specific skills and experience couldn't be replicated locally. There was a bit more to this, but the result was the same, everything was good.
After going through this, and paying the fee, we found out that the border agents had informed us wrong. Really, it was just a case of confusion. They didn't realize I was applying under a special category. However, even if that hadn't been the case, we would have done just fine.
The entire process, and all the government officials we spoke with were incredibly helpful. This isn't the first time I've gotten a visa, either. It's just the first time we decided to go through the process without a lawyer. The Canadian government, as well as the Quebec government, were very reasonable and quick about the whole thing.
After going through this, and paying the fee, we found out that the border agents had informed us wrong. Really, it was just a case of confusion. They didn't realize I was applying under a special category. However, even if that hadn't been the case, we would have done just fine.
The entire process, and all the government officials we spoke with were incredibly helpful. This isn't the first time I've gotten a visa, either. It's just the first time we decided to go through the process without a lawyer. The Canadian government, as well as the Quebec government, were very reasonable and quick about the whole thing.
Australian Immigration works on the same set-up. They also go down to state/territory level to request specific industries and job skills.
I am not sure about the advice here. I am a H1-B holder, and here is what I see wrong with his advice -
H1B: (the most popular) This Visa let you be hired from your company. So you can be the CEO, CTO or a developer of your company. It lasts 5 years, then you can extend it.
Not entirely true.
1. The Visa is for 6 years (in 2 3-year segments). Furthermore, you can't extend it unless you have legitimate reasons for it (for eg. if you are waiting on your GC to be approved).
2. It's very hard to be hired by your own company, especially for startups. He does allude to this in his "Cons" section but there is more to it - For a firm to hire a H1-B the business itself needs to prove that it actually has such a need. Furthermore, its needs to prove it's own viability via a business plan, a tax statement (that shows that it makes $x in revenues each year) etc. The latter portion is hard for a startup - since they may not have any revenues yet.
3. The 5 year time range (for getting a GC) is random at best - It all depends on the country of origin of the immigrant. People from certain countries can enroll in the GC lottery process and potentially get lucky (I have a friend who went this route). For most people from China/India it usually is on an average 5-6 years (a EB-2 classificatio. EB-3 takes longer, while EB-1 is usually very fast, but a very small portion of the population can apply in that category)
4. He's right about having the right salary. You need to pass labor certification when getting a H1-B (or a GC for that matter). I don't know enough about part-time H1-Bs so I can't comment on it
H1B: (the most popular) This Visa let you be hired from your company. So you can be the CEO, CTO or a developer of your company. It lasts 5 years, then you can extend it.
Not entirely true.
1. The Visa is for 6 years (in 2 3-year segments). Furthermore, you can't extend it unless you have legitimate reasons for it (for eg. if you are waiting on your GC to be approved).
2. It's very hard to be hired by your own company, especially for startups. He does allude to this in his "Cons" section but there is more to it - For a firm to hire a H1-B the business itself needs to prove that it actually has such a need. Furthermore, its needs to prove it's own viability via a business plan, a tax statement (that shows that it makes $x in revenues each year) etc. The latter portion is hard for a startup - since they may not have any revenues yet.
3. The 5 year time range (for getting a GC) is random at best - It all depends on the country of origin of the immigrant. People from certain countries can enroll in the GC lottery process and potentially get lucky (I have a friend who went this route). For most people from China/India it usually is on an average 5-6 years (a EB-2 classificatio. EB-3 takes longer, while EB-1 is usually very fast, but a very small portion of the population can apply in that category)
4. He's right about having the right salary. You need to pass labor certification when getting a H1-B (or a GC for that matter). I don't know enough about part-time H1-Bs so I can't comment on it
Furthermore, its needs to prove it's own viability via a business plan, a tax statement (that shows that it makes $x in revenues each year) etc. The latter portion is hard for a startup - since they may not have any revenues yet.
I was hired by the co-founder of my own startup (eduFire.com) in 2007 and transferred my H1 from my old big corp to the startup.
Things may have changed since then, or the case might be different b/c it was an H1 transfer, but our lawyer didn't need to provide a biz plan or tax statement to get the H1 transferred.
I was hired by the co-founder of my own startup (eduFire.com) in 2007 and transferred my H1 from my old big corp to the startup.
Things may have changed since then, or the case might be different b/c it was an H1 transfer, but our lawyer didn't need to provide a biz plan or tax statement to get the H1 transferred.
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I think the main reason is that they don't have a good test for who's a bona-fide founder or not: anyone can put up a website or release some iPhone apps and claim they're running a tech startup and are in the process of trying to monetize it. Who's going to read those business plans and filter for the legit ones (and what does legit even mean; estimated likelihood of success?)? Hence the buck-passing to someone else (VCs, angels, or revenue numbers, if you successfully bootstrapped) to make the decision. If your startup's got enough cash or revenues to pay you a salary above some threshhold, you're considered a legit entrepreneur; otherwise, you're merely an "aspiring entrepreneur".
The big problem is the catch-22 - to get in you need investment from US investors, but that is nearly impossible to obtain without getting in. So you are stuck.
I would think an open-door policy that lets people with prima facie evidence of a legitimate startup come in for 1-2 years to try their hand would be hugely beneficial. You might require a letter of recommendation from an investor but not actual investment. If they haven't raised money or have revenue after that then the visa ends, and you might only be able to apply for it once every 5 years. I think this would enable a flood of talented entrepreneurs to come and give it a go with very little risk of abuse - coming to the US is a very expensive proposition if it is only going to last a year or two. Just the overheads of showing up are a pretty high barrier. And any person landing fresh is going to spend a lot of money in their first year and as an entrepreneur they are by definition not taking anybody's job. It really seems like a win-win.
I would think an open-door policy that lets people with prima facie evidence of a legitimate startup come in for 1-2 years to try their hand would be hugely beneficial. You might require a letter of recommendation from an investor but not actual investment. If they haven't raised money or have revenue after that then the visa ends, and you might only be able to apply for it once every 5 years. I think this would enable a flood of talented entrepreneurs to come and give it a go with very little risk of abuse - coming to the US is a very expensive proposition if it is only going to last a year or two. Just the overheads of showing up are a pretty high barrier. And any person landing fresh is going to spend a lot of money in their first year and as an entrepreneur they are by definition not taking anybody's job. It really seems like a win-win.
Couldn't one just ask them to incorporate a company? I know this is generally better done later rather than sooner, but it is enough of a hassle that I think it would be a reasonable indicator of commitment.
No, otherwise everyone in the world can come in US with just a $800 in commitment (the price to open a company in US via web)
And you absolutely don't want that.. imagine a free market that was free.
Ok, I get it that the US incurs some liabilities when it accepts inmigrants, etc... that's why the startup visa makes some kind of sense...
I'd love to go to the US (heck, even visit!) but I've been deterred several time (I've been 2 inches from the US border during my stay in Canada, but I didn't want the visa hassle and expense just for a short visit - not that the Canada visa experience was much better but I have relatives there)..
Ok, I get it that the US incurs some liabilities when it accepts inmigrants, etc... that's why the startup visa makes some kind of sense...
I'd love to go to the US (heck, even visit!) but I've been deterred several time (I've been 2 inches from the US border during my stay in Canada, but I didn't want the visa hassle and expense just for a short visit - not that the Canada visa experience was much better but I have relatives there)..
You can basically leave off the "if you are a Founder" in the title, and still be accurate.
Agreed. My fiancee and myself have been going through a K-1 visa since January, and while it's nearly over, I still have to fly to another city to get an interview before I get my visa.
As far as I'm aware, the K-1 visa is one of the fastest processed visas, and it's been 7 months without making a single mistake. I'd hate to think how long it would be on another visa, or worse, if we had made a mistake along the way.
As far as I'm aware, the K-1 visa is one of the fastest processed visas, and it's been 7 months without making a single mistake. I'd hate to think how long it would be on another visa, or worse, if we had made a mistake along the way.
Last time my wife renewed her green card it took them 16 months to process it - and this is for an employed, property-owning, doctorate-holding, non-crime-committing, citizen-parenting immigrant who's lived in the States for 15 years. I.e. a textbook rubber stamp. We had to get a special note to return from our vacation because we'd only left a year for processing....
I've always taken the libertarian stance that open borders are the most sensible way to run a country. More so since I've seen the ridiculous way the immigration system is run.
I've always taken the libertarian stance that open borders are the most sensible way to run a country. More so since I've seen the ridiculous way the immigration system is run.
Yeah, I hear you about the note thing. If I even get into the US in time for my wedding, I have to apply for permission to go on our honeymoon. We have to plan two honeymoons, one in case I can get permission to leave and re-enter the US, one if I can't.
As far as I'm concerned, US immigration controls only make life harder for people who want to do the right thing. I've had plenty of chances to just overstay a visa and not go home, but I chose to do the right thing, and as a reward, I get to wait months without seeing my partner.
As far as I'm concerned, US immigration controls only make life harder for people who want to do the right thing. I've had plenty of chances to just overstay a visa and not go home, but I chose to do the right thing, and as a reward, I get to wait months without seeing my partner.
This is the case in pretty much every western country, afaik. The $250k limit is also held by Germany. Other countries have floors of (I hope you're sitting) 1 million currency units (pounds, etc.). Personally, I think they are all misguided. But try to explain that to border control. In this vein, you may find this post by Max Klein of interest: http://maxkle.in/giving-up-on-europe/
Could you link to an article where is says the minimum amount you need to invest for the countries you mention? I live in Ireland and I've never heard of these limits for the countries you mention.
Here's a link showing the minimum capital requirements for different nations:
http://doingbusiness.org/documents/Simulator_2010.xls (Excel Spreadsheet)
Some Examples:
Here's a link showing the minimum capital requirements for different nations:
http://doingbusiness.org/documents/Simulator_2010.xls (Excel Spreadsheet)
Some Examples:
China - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 87th - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 130.9%
Germany - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 25th - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 0%
Ireland - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 7th - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 0%
Singapore - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 1st - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 0%
United Kingdom - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 5th - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 0%
United States - Overall Ease of Doing Business: 4th - Min. Capital to Start a Business(% income per capita): 0%
I'm from Ireland myself, and it is indeed different for non-nationals; eg Ireland requires E300,000 a credible business plan, and ability to hire at least 2 people. http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP09000012
It is sort of stupid economically, but then the other side of the coin is that government don't want to be accused of selling visas or try to evaluate micro-businesses proposed by people who might or might not be actual entrepreneurs. Protip: being a professional writer or artist of any standing makes living in Ireland much, much easier.
It is sort of stupid economically, but then the other side of the coin is that government don't want to be accused of selling visas or try to evaluate micro-businesses proposed by people who might or might not be actual entrepreneurs. Protip: being a professional writer or artist of any standing makes living in Ireland much, much easier.
I had no idea of the 300k limit...that's crazy high. I guess most people who immigrate are from within the EU so it's less of an issue.
"being a professional writer or artist of any standing makes living in Ireland much, much easier." - unless you are U2!
ps. there is a Ruby Ireland meetup in Cork in 2 days if you are in the area...no prerequisites, very informal, all welcome ;-)
http://www.hackernewsers.com/meetups/2.html
"being a professional writer or artist of any standing makes living in Ireland much, much easier." - unless you are U2!
ps. there is a Ruby Ireland meetup in Cork in 2 days if you are in the area...no prerequisites, very informal, all welcome ;-)
http://www.hackernewsers.com/meetups/2.html
Yes. Procuring a student visa would be far easier and more affordable for startup founders interested in working in Ireland, as far as I can tell.
re. meetup, I live in the US now, and unfortunately my relatives in Ireland aren't programmers - but thanks for the invite!
re. meetup, I live in the US now, and unfortunately my relatives in Ireland aren't programmers - but thanks for the invite!
That's funny, I'm trying to land a job Stateside, so I can secure a H1-B, hopefully progress to a Green Card so I can do a startup! Small world! There's certainly much less opportunities and talent over here. Most young smart people don't see startups as a viable and rewarding career opportunity....which is a real shame.
You can't have salary nor be hired even by your own company
Why to look for being directly paid by US company? Why not to establish local company and outstaff yourself to it? It's even possible to save on taxes in some cases. Getting B1 visa is not so complex and it allows to stay in US long enough to hold all crucial meetings and then return in 3-6 months.
Yes, this approach has a lot of inconveniences. But it's much more doable than knocking on the closed door.
Why to look for being directly paid by US company? Why not to establish local company and outstaff yourself to it? It's even possible to save on taxes in some cases. Getting B1 visa is not so complex and it allows to stay in US long enough to hold all crucial meetings and then return in 3-6 months.
Yes, this approach has a lot of inconveniences. But it's much more doable than knocking on the closed door.
I wish we could at least have the attitude in the UK that talented people coming to your country is a good thing... During our last national elections the hyperbole against any kind of immigration was astounding to me (as someone who employs and has employed people from around the world).
The world is full of creative, hardworking people that benefit everyone they interact with.
Please don't let any more of these type of people in. Its too good here already.
Please don't let any more of these type of people in. Its too good here already.
The OP forgot to mention the F1 Visa (student visa). I'm starting my company on F1.
Does all Fedora/FreeBSD/Apache Foundation and thousands other project's contributors all sitting in the office cubicles in US?
Isn't it's a time to realize that there is no need to relocate into US, moreover, it is, perhaps, much better to work with US-bound project but to live, say, in India, Thailand, Nepal and other clean and friendly places..
Isn't a entire history of emergence and development of Linux kernel (and related OSes) is a self-evident case study?
Isn't it's a time to realize that there is no need to relocate into US, moreover, it is, perhaps, much better to work with US-bound project but to live, say, in India, Thailand, Nepal and other clean and friendly places..
Isn't a entire history of emergence and development of Linux kernel (and related OSes) is a self-evident case study?
Of course U.S. Immigration sucks for founders. You don't think we're actually pro sensible-immigration, do you? The U.S. Immigration system is about importing cheap labor (which is why Republicans support it) and NAMs to replace whites (which is why Democrats support it).
50% of the children in born in the U.S. today are Black or Hispanic.
Unless you know of a way to fix all the problems in Black and Hispanic populations that seem to keep them from having any significant presence in professions requiring an education or IQs over 120 (and we've tried to fix those problems for 150 years now), the U.S. will be Brazil in 20-30 years.
Educational reform has moved the Black-White gap maybe 1/5th of a standard deviation over the last several decades. And that was the easy part. Honestly, the rest is probably genetic, and simply won't budge even if you turn the public schools into sharashkas.
Good luck, all. The demographic ball is too big to stop now, even if every state turned into Arizona tomorrow. The moving hand has written. Enjoy your bowls of red.
P.S.
If you are now busily writing me 50 reasons why the black-white gap isn't genetic, don't bother. That was an aside and irrelevant to the central point. What matters is that it's something that seems impossible to shift with current methods even when vast resources sluice against the problem over many years. And you only have 20-30 years to come up with a solution. Smart money is way against you.
50% of the children in born in the U.S. today are Black or Hispanic.
Unless you know of a way to fix all the problems in Black and Hispanic populations that seem to keep them from having any significant presence in professions requiring an education or IQs over 120 (and we've tried to fix those problems for 150 years now), the U.S. will be Brazil in 20-30 years.
Educational reform has moved the Black-White gap maybe 1/5th of a standard deviation over the last several decades. And that was the easy part. Honestly, the rest is probably genetic, and simply won't budge even if you turn the public schools into sharashkas.
Good luck, all. The demographic ball is too big to stop now, even if every state turned into Arizona tomorrow. The moving hand has written. Enjoy your bowls of red.
P.S.
If you are now busily writing me 50 reasons why the black-white gap isn't genetic, don't bother. That was an aside and irrelevant to the central point. What matters is that it's something that seems impossible to shift with current methods even when vast resources sluice against the problem over many years. And you only have 20-30 years to come up with a solution. Smart money is way against you.
You make a bunch of generalizations here without supporting evidence, especially with regards to the Black-White gap. Differences exist in and between (recognized) ethnic groups and are enforced by strict social phenomena (slavery for dark skins; liberty for lights). If we eliminated the entire historically privileged white middle and upper class from America, this would render the remainder of the population with much of the same social problems that plague the Black and Hispanic communities today. In this case, after a few generations the "gap" would very likely be as good as gone.
However, what this, and your comments in particular, have to do with immigration as it relates to Founders is beyond me. Your post basically just degenerates into one of those racialist garbage tediums (see paraphrase:"we've tried to fix blacks for 150 years"; slavery was abolished in 1865; segregation in the 60s; one can't right wrongs by not actually doing anything about them) that litter much of the white supremacist blogosphere nowadays. Hispanics, I might understand some frustration to do specifically with immigration, but what the state of Black America has to do with regards to Founder immigration I cannot discern.
Your tangent on how Blacks and Hispanics, two disadvantaged but otherwise tasteful groups, are figuratively destroying America is an example of practiced misdirection.Neither of these two groups objectively stand in the way of adjusting immigrations practices to allow more Founders.Hence your entire rant exposes itself as racist fear mongering drivel written by a someone with very little to say on the germane issue at hand.
However, what this, and your comments in particular, have to do with immigration as it relates to Founders is beyond me. Your post basically just degenerates into one of those racialist garbage tediums (see paraphrase:"we've tried to fix blacks for 150 years"; slavery was abolished in 1865; segregation in the 60s; one can't right wrongs by not actually doing anything about them) that litter much of the white supremacist blogosphere nowadays. Hispanics, I might understand some frustration to do specifically with immigration, but what the state of Black America has to do with regards to Founder immigration I cannot discern.
Your tangent on how Blacks and Hispanics, two disadvantaged but otherwise tasteful groups, are figuratively destroying America is an example of practiced misdirection.Neither of these two groups objectively stand in the way of adjusting immigrations practices to allow more Founders.Hence your entire rant exposes itself as racist fear mongering drivel written by a someone with very little to say on the germane issue at hand.
Wouldn't the plural of tedium be tedia?
after a few generations the "gap" would very likely be as good as gone.
lulz
lulz
The gap would already be dramatically reduced to within inches rather than metres. In effect it would be gone, although it would very literally be so if culture and conditions were rectified in a way that hasn't yet been tried in the United States over the past "150 years" (as if anything substantive was done in this time whatsoever). Of course, you can always disagree and argue from the basis of genetic determinism, but we all know the evidence for that is inconclusive and your "thinking" that it isn't won't make it anymore real.
Oh, and just to make clarion your intellectual dishonesty, what does all of this have to do with Founder immigration? Nothing. What is it really about? Probably racism.
Have a nice day.
Oh, and just to make clarion your intellectual dishonesty, what does all of this have to do with Founder immigration? Nothing. What is it really about? Probably racism.
Have a nice day.
Wow, you sound like Tim May reincarnated (although I guess technically he isn't dead).
A country needs to figure out what elements it wants to excel in (services, manufacturing, high-tech, etc.) and then make policies that will drive people towards those industries, regardless of where they are from.
The US system is rather agnostic (it seems equally hard for a day-labourer as a top-notch scientist to get in) as a result - the people needed are difficult to identify and woo into the country.
Canada has an interesting method to this - and is relatively open to immigration: use a point system. (want to figure out YOUR score?: http://www.workpermit.com/canada/points_calculator.htm
If you're a PHD, add 25 points - a high school grad? add 10 points...and so on. In the end, the process is relatively transparent and helps potential immigrants realize they are needed.
In the US, as part of the immigration process - they will go through intense questioning on very relevant matters such as "Were you ever a member of the communist party?" "Are you a terrorist?" - both questions were asked of me dring the immigration process. But no one even asked if I had a high school diploma....hmm.