For Many, a Grad-School Stint Doesn't Pay Off in Job Market(online.wsj.com)
online.wsj.com
For Many, a Grad-School Stint Doesn't Pay Off in Job Market
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704699604575342751927334436.html
10 comments
Is it? The argument around an 'education bubble' seems to be more around two things:
1) Students racking up enormous debt in esoteric disciplines that don't directly translate to jobs. 2) An absolute deluge of students in certain fields (like 'marketing') from thousands of universities that effectively drag everyone down to the mean. Since a degree is so common it ceases to be a unique differentiator...making it worthless. The 'bubble' here is in the perception of utility for degrees meaning kids will abandon college for other paths.
Here we have a MIT grad in a hugely in-demand field that can't (or won't) find a job. My hunch is that she actually can find a job, she just lacks the qualifications that she thinks she has. She probably needs to take a lower-responsibility job and actually build those skills... that doesn't mean her degree isn't a great investment (it probably is), it just means she's approaching this from a very unrealistic perspective.
1) Students racking up enormous debt in esoteric disciplines that don't directly translate to jobs. 2) An absolute deluge of students in certain fields (like 'marketing') from thousands of universities that effectively drag everyone down to the mean. Since a degree is so common it ceases to be a unique differentiator...making it worthless. The 'bubble' here is in the perception of utility for degrees meaning kids will abandon college for other paths.
Here we have a MIT grad in a hugely in-demand field that can't (or won't) find a job. My hunch is that she actually can find a job, she just lacks the qualifications that she thinks she has. She probably needs to take a lower-responsibility job and actually build those skills... that doesn't mean her degree isn't a great investment (it probably is), it just means she's approaching this from a very unrealistic perspective.
I agree that a lot of this is her being unrealistic / overachieving / etc., but I think we're going to see a lot more of this to come.
More telling though is the fact that they framed it in education bubble terms, not as much recession terms, which perhaps shows the media's ethos to be friendly to the concept - at least the WSJ.
More telling though is the fact that they framed it in education bubble terms, not as much recession terms, which perhaps shows the media's ethos to be friendly to the concept - at least the WSJ.
Here in DC my fellow alumns are having some difficulty finding jobs, and they are ready to work just about anywhere. They eventually get sucked up into the big consulting firms though. They will do well enough in 10 years' time.
I think the biggest problem has been for international folks who can't get anyone to sponsor their visas except for, say, the World Bank, which is all too familiar with the process.
I think the biggest problem has been for international folks who can't get anyone to sponsor their visas except for, say, the World Bank, which is all too familiar with the process.
Yes the key quote is
She landed a good job with a consulting firm, but decided to go to the London School of Economics in 2008 to learn more about climate change
How is turning down a good job then complaining about being out of work reasonable behavior? Is there any demand for graduates with a MA in Climate Change? Did she even research that?
She landed a good job with a consulting firm, but decided to go to the London School of Economics in 2008 to learn more about climate change
How is turning down a good job then complaining about being out of work reasonable behavior? Is there any demand for graduates with a MA in Climate Change? Did she even research that?
Even MIT grads are having trouble? That surprises me. There seems to be a lot of work for web coding monkeys. Are people just being stupidly pedantic about requiring X+ years of experience in random trivial technology Y?
For the MIT graduates, it's not as much "finding a job" as "finding a job that they will take." Their standards are pretty high and in some markets, the downward expectations-adjustment process takes some time.
Also, as an MIT graduate myself, I can say that there are people who have Master's in Engineering in Computer Science and can't even be a code monkey.
Also, as an MIT graduate myself, I can say that there are people who have Master's in Engineering in Computer Science and can't even be a code monkey.
Way to shatter my illusions! I thought you were all lisp gurus that could code an NLP processor in 10 lines of code.
I suppose I'd have pretty high job expectations with a master's from MIT too but I'd still rather be working than unemployed.
I suppose I'd have pretty high job expectations with a master's from MIT too but I'd still rather be working than unemployed.
It's a bit of a dirty secret, but at a lot of top schools with reputations for brilliant students, it's not always true of masters students, at least to the same degree. Undergrads and PhDs, yes, but schools often seem to see masters students as cash cows, because more of then pay full tuition (there aren't the same financial aid packages as for undergrad, or RA/TA stipends as for PhD students).
Though this doesn't relate to the situation in the linked article, which is someone who got both a bachelor's and masters from MIT.
Though this doesn't relate to the situation in the linked article, which is someone who got both a bachelor's and masters from MIT.
I'm actually talking about people who did the bachelor's and master's at MIT (which is what I did).
Dirty secret: The world's best universities are exactly like the world's average universities in that they have a mix of geniuses, dunces, and a healthy mix in between. MIT has a right-shifted distribution, not a fundamentally different distribution.
Dirty secret: The world's best universities are exactly like the world's average universities in that they have a mix of geniuses, dunces, and a healthy mix in between. MIT has a right-shifted distribution, not a fundamentally different distribution.
This was also the case when I was in grad school in chemistry. A master's was almost worse than a bachelor's degree because it meant that you were either unable to make the grade for a doctorate or expecting special treatment for the same work undergrads would do.
afaik, MIT EECS does not have a 'cash cow' master's-only degree program. in order to do a terminal Master of Engineering (MEng) degree in EECS, you must have been an undergrad there as well. the only way to get a terminal MS from MIT EECS without having been an undergrad there is to be admitted into the Ph.D. program and then drop out after 2 years.
however, the practice of having a 'cash cow' master's-only program is fairly common amongst many other US universities
however, the practice of having a 'cash cow' master's-only program is fairly common amongst many other US universities
When I was there, this was true, and probably still is. I did an MIT EECS MEng and I'll be honest with you: its probably not worth it if you dont land a TAship or RAship that covers all costs.
Getting into the MEng program is not done by application and decision, its purely 'decided' by your ugrad GPA. The theses dont have any sort of committee, just your advisor signing off. Many advisors cant/wont pay for your tuition unless you are the Bomb so the key is if you can get a TAship, just keep doing that. 1.5 to 2 years later, write a 40 page LaTeX paper about something and you get an MEng
Personally, I did it because you get to polish off your ugrad degree with a bunch of fantastic grad classes and if you play it right, the whole thing is free and comes with a stipend. its a bit more education and lets you stick around but I wouldn't say its thought of as a way to boost income or job status.
Getting into the MEng program is not done by application and decision, its purely 'decided' by your ugrad GPA. The theses dont have any sort of committee, just your advisor signing off. Many advisors cant/wont pay for your tuition unless you are the Bomb so the key is if you can get a TAship, just keep doing that. 1.5 to 2 years later, write a 40 page LaTeX paper about something and you get an MEng
Personally, I did it because you get to polish off your ugrad degree with a bunch of fantastic grad classes and if you play it right, the whole thing is free and comes with a stipend. its a bit more education and lets you stick around but I wouldn't say its thought of as a way to boost income or job status.
Data point: In 1999, I was making $60k doing entry-level sysadmin work at a major pharma. Now it's 2010, and I have a PhD from the University of Pennsylvania in cognitive neuroscience, and I'm making ... $60k again. (I like my job a whole lot better though.)
The nice part about Canada is we have federally sponsored jobs programs in the IT sector exclusively for those with degrees so they don't face competition from those with out higher education.
How is that a nice thing? Why shouldn't you have to compete on fair and level ground with folks just because you have a piece of paper?
*note: I don't have a degree.
*note: I don't have a degree.
It was meant to be sarcastic. I don't have a degree either. It's especially ridiculous when you consider the public resources that go into providing higher education.
That flew right over my head:)
Judging from the upvotes, I'd say it flew over everyone's heads ;)
I agree with you, and I have a masters in computer science.
But to make up for it, you have Engineer-In-Training in charge of PhD physicists because physics isn't a 'profession'
Not everything is about how much extra x% wage you can pull by going to grad school. I'll admit that that was my thinking when I initially decided to do a masters but in my second year now, I realise the incredible amount of knowledge and experience I gained. After undergrad I thought I could take on the world. I was actually surprised that I couldn't get a job at the all the cool high-tech companies. Only now do I realise how dumb I was. Only now can I safely say that I can do the job that is required.
> After undergrad I thought I could take on the world … Only now can I safely say that I can do the job that is required.
Given that history, would it not be wise to complete a PhD to make sure you're not having the same mistaken thought once more?
Given that history, would it not be wise to complete a PhD to make sure you're not having the same mistaken thought once more?
The more I read about grad school the more I can see that it's not something you want to do in the hope of landing a better paying job when you get out.
As people have mentioned to the sense of entitlement of a masters graduate from a top uni are probably keeping them out of the job market to. Unless the narrow field you researched is exactly what your applying to do at a company experience is probably going to look better.
As people have mentioned to the sense of entitlement of a masters graduate from a top uni are probably keeping them out of the job market to. Unless the narrow field you researched is exactly what your applying to do at a company experience is probably going to look better.
Education system should ideally create employers and not employees.
Why is that? Would you like to run a company that employed mostly uneducated people? More over, would you like to be part of an economy where most available goods/services were the product of unskilled labor? What about shopping around amongst an appalling number of undifferentiated providers?
The "we educate entrepreneurs" is an abdication of the higher education establishment's mission. It profits by producing a bunch of graduates without regards for the needs of society. This includes not only the contents of the curriculum, but the yearly amount of graduates as well. It is a bubble in the making, or so it seems.
The "we educate entrepreneurs" is an abdication of the higher education establishment's mission. It profits by producing a bunch of graduates without regards for the needs of society. This includes not only the contents of the curriculum, but the yearly amount of graduates as well. It is a bubble in the making, or so it seems.
Wondering why Govt is not offering software development services for small businesses?
Somehow I read the title as Grade-School Stint.
http://chronicle.com/article/Will-Higher-Education-Be-the/44...