Ask HN: Need some advice-trouble at my new job at a start-up
11 comments
Run for the hills. Take the first job you can get doing real work. You'll make yourself crazy otherwise.
I'm at the point where I've had some good jobs and some bad ones. In every single one of the bad ones, I could tell you exactly the same story you've shared above. You've been hired, these guys are "ramping up" but have no idea where they are really going and zero expectation that you can help them get there.
Here's the thing that I've found - it's a huge red flag if you see a smart and capable person not really doing anything. Something is wrong organizationally and you can't fix it. On several teams, I found myself defending managers or the "people in control" saying to myself and others things like "their vision is good, we just need to pull it together." Or "so-and-so is really smart, but needs to figure out how to better sell the solution to the higher-ups/customers/whoever."
Every single time I've seen these signs, I've seen teams that fell apart, projects that were never completed, and most important to me, wasted my time and effort trying to help.
I'm not saying that there isn't some chaos that can be coalesced into a real product or experience that you can be proud of and build on, but my personal experience is that what you describe is a usually a big fail on the way. And it will only continue or get worse.
Your only hope there is if you can take charge of a project that is customer-facing and iterate directly with those customers on delivering usable software to those customers. Otherwise, you gotta get out.
I'm at the point where I've had some good jobs and some bad ones. In every single one of the bad ones, I could tell you exactly the same story you've shared above. You've been hired, these guys are "ramping up" but have no idea where they are really going and zero expectation that you can help them get there.
Here's the thing that I've found - it's a huge red flag if you see a smart and capable person not really doing anything. Something is wrong organizationally and you can't fix it. On several teams, I found myself defending managers or the "people in control" saying to myself and others things like "their vision is good, we just need to pull it together." Or "so-and-so is really smart, but needs to figure out how to better sell the solution to the higher-ups/customers/whoever."
Every single time I've seen these signs, I've seen teams that fell apart, projects that were never completed, and most important to me, wasted my time and effort trying to help.
I'm not saying that there isn't some chaos that can be coalesced into a real product or experience that you can be proud of and build on, but my personal experience is that what you describe is a usually a big fail on the way. And it will only continue or get worse.
Your only hope there is if you can take charge of a project that is customer-facing and iterate directly with those customers on delivering usable software to those customers. Otherwise, you gotta get out.
Pretty much every startup/company is suffering from not having enough people to do development time, but I have seen this before. As odd as it sounds, getting things done is NOT a priority at these places. Sometimes it's more about politics or positioning or business-ey things but it's not real. It's hard for people who like to be productive to understand, but it's true.
I agree with Tom to get the heck out. If you want to make a last ditch effort, find the highest ranking person who will talk to you and make it 100% clear that you have NOTHING to do. Then if it's still all talk, get out.
I agree with Tom to get the heck out. If you want to make a last ditch effort, find the highest ranking person who will talk to you and make it 100% clear that you have NOTHING to do. Then if it's still all talk, get out.
I have been in a similar situation and unfortunately did not leave as soon as I realized it could never possibly work. Instead I wasted about six months working half-heartedly on a garbage product that was eventually thrown away (literally) the day after I quit.
This sounds like a leadership problem. You need to have a hard, honest conversation with the founder(s). Your time is your most precious commodity and they're wasting it.
You need to get simple, direct answers, too, not vague promises.
We don't have the whole story, but from your side it sounds like they're either clueless or are not communicating clearly, e.g., maybe they expect you to figure out what to do yourself.
They need to either give you concrete tasks or communicate the vision so clearly and concisely that you know the next 10 things that need to get done. If they can't do either then that's poor management and you need leave.
This sounds like a leadership problem. You need to have a hard, honest conversation with the founder(s). Your time is your most precious commodity and they're wasting it.
You need to get simple, direct answers, too, not vague promises.
We don't have the whole story, but from your side it sounds like they're either clueless or are not communicating clearly, e.g., maybe they expect you to figure out what to do yourself.
They need to either give you concrete tasks or communicate the vision so clearly and concisely that you know the next 10 things that need to get done. If they can't do either then that's poor management and you need leave.
Yeah I'm not sure how to approach the subject given that they think everyone is working hard. That's odd from my point of view since no one seems to be working very hard (in comparison to the crazy stories you sometimes hear about startups).
The tasks they end up giving me take me hours when I think they hope the tasks take me weeks (mostly so I don't come back asking for more work).
The tasks they end up giving me take me hours when I think they hope the tasks take me weeks (mostly so I don't come back asking for more work).
Yes, this also happened at the startup I was working at. Every Monday we'd assign tasks for the week. The founders were happy -- or in any case they never mentioned it -- but everyone else (there were five of us) were working at 10-20% capacity.
This is a bad sign. It probably means the founders don't have a clear vision for the company, otherwise it'd be clear to them and everyone else what to do. Or they have information they're not communicating -- also a bad sign.
This is a startup. You have to approach it with complete, unadulterated honesty. Don't hold back.
The founders, if they're good, should thank you. If they're bad they will get defensive or angry. They need to see it as getting valuable information, giving them the opportunity to improve the situation.
Of course, if they don't have a clear vision then that's the root cause. It's really disrespectful to hire people with no purpose, IMO, never mind a waste or resources.
This is a bad sign. It probably means the founders don't have a clear vision for the company, otherwise it'd be clear to them and everyone else what to do. Or they have information they're not communicating -- also a bad sign.
This is a startup. You have to approach it with complete, unadulterated honesty. Don't hold back.
The founders, if they're good, should thank you. If they're bad they will get defensive or angry. They need to see it as getting valuable information, giving them the opportunity to improve the situation.
Of course, if they don't have a clear vision then that's the root cause. It's really disrespectful to hire people with no purpose, IMO, never mind a waste or resources.
That is not even close to normal for a startup. The problem should be figuring out what you can let slide, not how to fill your day. Something is very wrong.
I've been there before, but I was working for a defense contractor, not a startup. You seem to have found the worst of both worlds.
I've been there before, but I was working for a defense contractor, not a startup. You seem to have found the worst of both worlds.
Agreed. If it's truly a startup, something's very wrong.
If you can't quickly figure out what game is going on, seriously consider bailing. If they truly don't have work for you, they may figure that out in due course. Something political above you is very possibly going on, and those sorts of things can get ugly without notice (well, way down where you are).
How big is the startup, i.e. rough number of employees, 10s, 100s, 1,000s?
If you can't quickly figure out what game is going on, seriously consider bailing. If they truly don't have work for you, they may figure that out in due course. Something political above you is very possibly going on, and those sorts of things can get ugly without notice (well, way down where you are).
How big is the startup, i.e. rough number of employees, 10s, 100s, 1,000s?
There are maybe 30 people there now and they're hiring a lot.
Does not compute, unless it's truly bad management (which is entirely possible).
You've watching this small company inaction (sic) for a month. If I was in your shoes I'd sit back and figure out all the possibilities for why this may be happening, and if I couldn't come up with one that's both high probability and good for you and the company I'd bail.
One month is more than long enough to figure out how to put someone to work. The fact that you don't get the impression that others are working hard ... that's telling as well.
Erk: here's one possibility: they hired you because they think you're good, but they've got you on ice in the hopes they'll find someone better. That would be insane, but what's happening sure sounds insane.
They've got you on ice for some reason, maybe they want to assemble a whole team, hire your boss, whatever (the latter can be very bad, he has no buy in WRT to you, nor does the company care about your value to them yet, since it's near nothing) ... but they're too clueless, distrustful, whatever to tell you to do something to keep you busy. Even "learn the latest about X", "learn Y new system", whatever.
I know from experience that it can be difficult at times to make sure there's work for everyone to do, but it's one of manager's most important jobs and they're failing hard for one reason or another.
Well, enough with the near stream of consciousness. I wish you luck.
You've watching this small company inaction (sic) for a month. If I was in your shoes I'd sit back and figure out all the possibilities for why this may be happening, and if I couldn't come up with one that's both high probability and good for you and the company I'd bail.
One month is more than long enough to figure out how to put someone to work. The fact that you don't get the impression that others are working hard ... that's telling as well.
Erk: here's one possibility: they hired you because they think you're good, but they've got you on ice in the hopes they'll find someone better. That would be insane, but what's happening sure sounds insane.
They've got you on ice for some reason, maybe they want to assemble a whole team, hire your boss, whatever (the latter can be very bad, he has no buy in WRT to you, nor does the company care about your value to them yet, since it's near nothing) ... but they're too clueless, distrustful, whatever to tell you to do something to keep you busy. Even "learn the latest about X", "learn Y new system", whatever.
I know from experience that it can be difficult at times to make sure there's work for everyone to do, but it's one of manager's most important jobs and they're failing hard for one reason or another.
Well, enough with the near stream of consciousness. I wish you luck.
I have thought about it for awhile and I can't help but think it's anything besides management error. I don't think they have any reason to employ me only to see if they could do better somehow. The job market in my area is very much in the control of the employees right now so making weird bets isn't likely to get you anywhere.
Yeah, "management error" is the most likely explanation (always choose that before malice).
Echoing starkfist, make sure this isn't what I call a vanity company, something that's being run for the ego of generally one founder and therefore isn't really attached to any other reality.
I'd take tom_b's advice. If they don't get their act together Real Soon Now with you, get out before they run out of money (try to find out what their situation is there if you don't already know it) or perhaps more likely mess up your work ethic etc.
You're basically in the position of someone who's literally unemployed, various "soft" job skills and attitudes are wasting away. Let this go on too long and it'll take you longer to become productive when you find real work here or elsewhere.
Echoing starkfist, make sure this isn't what I call a vanity company, something that's being run for the ego of generally one founder and therefore isn't really attached to any other reality.
I'd take tom_b's advice. If they don't get their act together Real Soon Now with you, get out before they run out of money (try to find out what their situation is there if you don't already know it) or perhaps more likely mess up your work ethic etc.
You're basically in the position of someone who's literally unemployed, various "soft" job skills and attitudes are wasting away. Let this go on too long and it'll take you longer to become productive when you find real work here or elsewhere.
Hah! Appreciate the thoughts. Thanks.
I don't think one month is such a long time. Assuming they're planning to start a new project soon, it makes sense to keep hiring. The strange thing is that you're kept in the dark. You really should ask what are their plans for the new hires.
Also, if you have "no real knowledge of the system" you should work on changing that, even if they don't expect you to.
Also, if you have "no real knowledge of the system" you should work on changing that, even if they don't expect you to.
What's funny is that one of the new junior hires is being given a pretty big task.
The system itself is pretty complicated and they use a lot of jargon to describe things so it really helps to have someone at least define what these terms mean.
The system itself is pretty complicated and they use a lot of jargon to describe things so it really helps to have someone at least define what these terms mean.
If you're at a software startup, and they can't find anything for a programmer to do, that's a very bad sign.
Just find yourself another job with your idle time and move on with your life.
Just find yourself another job with your idle time and move on with your life.
It sounds like a wonderful opportunity! Be proactive in learning the business and figuring out which problems need to be solved, then take it upon yourself to acquire the skills necessary to solve them. The increased knowledge will look great on your resume, and your career there could take off.
Unless you're being undercompensated, ignored, or the company is in danger of tanking, you should stay put and take advantage of the situation. Good luck!
Unless you're being undercompensated, ignored, or the company is in danger of tanking, you should stay put and take advantage of the situation. Good luck!
This can happen when a startup has a ton of money. Many startups are founded by guys who are already rich as an odd sort of hobby, or attempt to stay relevant. It's not good but not as abnormal as some of the other posters are implying. You should leave sooner rather than later. The only reason to stay is if they are rich because they have a great product they are making money with, and it would be worth vesting a portion of your options.
Not a good sign. But don't sit there if everyone else's busy.
Check this out.
http://www.longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-mac...
Also, you can sort out source control, servers, build machines. Ask questions, lots of them, and offer any sort of help. There are no real job titles in startups.
Check this out.
http://www.longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-mac...
Also, you can sort out source control, servers, build machines. Ask questions, lots of them, and offer any sort of help. There are no real job titles in startups.
I've offered my help in any number of areas. It just typically is ignored. Very confusing situation for me.
What happens when you do something useful anyway?
I've been in a situation like this before. LMI hired me because I was the only person in the community who knew both Lisp Machines and UNIX(TM) ... but I didn't have anything to do because Western Digital was running way behind in their 68000 UNIX workstation that was going to be the chassis for the LMI Lambda CPU (the 68000 UNIX CPU board was optional).
So I figured out useful things to do: recruited people who saved the company, produced the first software update for our existing customers, figured out a short cut for providing TCP/IP, worked with the technical writer; those were the big things I can remember three decades later.
But eventually I timed out and quit after 8-9 months. Most frustrating. On the other hand I did all of this in full consultation with the leaders of the company, including leaving.
I've been in a situation like this before. LMI hired me because I was the only person in the community who knew both Lisp Machines and UNIX(TM) ... but I didn't have anything to do because Western Digital was running way behind in their 68000 UNIX workstation that was going to be the chassis for the LMI Lambda CPU (the 68000 UNIX CPU board was optional).
So I figured out useful things to do: recruited people who saved the company, produced the first software update for our existing customers, figured out a short cut for providing TCP/IP, worked with the technical writer; those were the big things I can remember three decades later.
But eventually I timed out and quit after 8-9 months. Most frustrating. On the other hand I did all of this in full consultation with the leaders of the company, including leaving.
I would look for work elsewhere. Since you're working, you can be patient and be picky about the next job. While doing so, things might improve at your current job. And if they don't, you'll be comparing your current crappy situation to an awesome opportunity and it will become an easy decision.
It seemed like a good job and I got no warning signals going into it. The trouble I'm having is that there is no work for me to do there. That's a bit of an exaggeration but not by much. I mostly sit around all day and try my best to keep myself busy optimizing SQL and reading some documentation.
I've been there over a month and while having asked for work repeatedly I'm told there either is nothing or that I will get some bugs assigned to me--then the bugs never come unless I complain more. I'm happy to get any work I don't really care but it seems weird that they even hired me. They're continuing to hire in my group and I've been wondering why exactly. I also have had no one explain to me anything that's going on in this system. Normally they have an orientation process but for some reason I wasn't given that when I started.
So I'm left with little to do all day and no real knowledge of the system so it's hard for me to come up with work on my own. So I guess my question is:
- Is this even close to normal for a start-up?
- Should I seriously consider bailing after such a short period of time?
I'm not really looking for direct advice but just help processing what's going on. I don't really know too many people who have been in situations like this.
Thanks!