Release yourself to the church, to the state, to Apple Corporation. Or Flow.(zacharyburt.com)
zacharyburt.com
Release yourself to the church, to the state, to Apple Corporation. Or Flow.
http://www.zacharyburt.com/2010/06/release-yourself-to-the-church-to-the-state-to-apple-corporation-or-flow/
10 comments
coming from China, yes we've heard stories of people totally sacrificed themselves to the communies state goal while feeling very happy about it. They are of a rare kind but the state loves them and keep telling stories at the time. Now no one gives a crap about the state goal any more.
>I stopped reading here - it is a stupid generalization and a misunderstanding of the Flow concept
Got that bit from Mihaly himself, though it's possible I took it out of context. I don't have my copy of the book with me right now but when I get home I will give you some precise quotes. The idea is that intentions and behavior are definitely shaped by the state.
>In fact, the idea of Csikszentmihalyi's flow is that resourceful people can create/find meaningful activities pretty much regardless of the external environment (above some threshold) which leads to a feeling of happiness.
Yes, and if you'd bother to read the article, you'd see that it mentioned this.
Got that bit from Mihaly himself, though it's possible I took it out of context. I don't have my copy of the book with me right now but when I get home I will give you some precise quotes. The idea is that intentions and behavior are definitely shaped by the state.
>In fact, the idea of Csikszentmihalyi's flow is that resourceful people can create/find meaningful activities pretty much regardless of the external environment (above some threshold) which leads to a feeling of happiness.
Yes, and if you'd bother to read the article, you'd see that it mentioned this.
"Got that bit from Mihaly himself, though it's possible I took it out of context."
I'm curious also about the context, I'd be ready to argue against M.Cs. himself, if he really claimed that, but it would be strange, because one of his main points is that better societal conditions, higher standard of living, etc. don't make people that much happier overall, in fact you start the article with this yourself.
"Yes, and if you'd bother to read the article, you'd see that it mentioned this."
Sorry - didn't mean to sound negative. Yes, you give the example of the guy addicted to programming, unable to move on to what he would want to do instead. Incidentally a similar effect might be at work in totalitarian regimes: people are addicted to the little games they have to play to get by and are not motivated to change the system. Something like a Stockholm syndrome on a larger scale. Just speculating here :)
I'm curious also about the context, I'd be ready to argue against M.Cs. himself, if he really claimed that, but it would be strange, because one of his main points is that better societal conditions, higher standard of living, etc. don't make people that much happier overall, in fact you start the article with this yourself.
"Yes, and if you'd bother to read the article, you'd see that it mentioned this."
Sorry - didn't mean to sound negative. Yes, you give the example of the guy addicted to programming, unable to move on to what he would want to do instead. Incidentally a similar effect might be at work in totalitarian regimes: people are addicted to the little games they have to play to get by and are not motivated to change the system. Something like a Stockholm syndrome on a larger scale. Just speculating here :)
This quote, plus the author's misuse of Buddhist concepts reminds me of a quote from the book Zen at War, attributed to a prominent Buddhist priest: "If ordered to march: tramp, tramp or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest wisdom of enlightenment."
In other words, loyalty and absolute submission to military leaders and the state was seen as a sign of egolessness and enlightenment.
In other words, loyalty and absolute submission to military leaders and the state was seen as a sign of egolessness and enlightenment.
Zack, don't take this wrong way, because you seemed pretty chill when we met at the meetup a while back, but this post is not even remotely close to any sort of coherent thought. It's unsubstantiated speculation, bad writing, and worse yet it's linkbait. There's a line between informal flare and lunatic raving, and its drawn somewhere in the vicinity of writing in all caps. This isn't what people come to HN for, and I'm genuinely confused as to how it ended up at #1. Sorry.
I quite enjoyed it. Maybe it's not HN material but it was a pleasant read and spoke well to people who struggle to figure out what happiness is.
Most people at HN would probably agree that enjoyment would come from creating something. I, being newer here, took longer to figure this out. I realize that for a long while I was taking the wrong cues from society on how to draw enjoyment and this article sums up a lot of what my struggle was with and drew the same conclusions.
I also found this article to very relevant to modern life here in America. As a young adult I am questioning things like this everyday and I am going to read flow now.
Can you elaborate on why you think it's not a coherent thought?.
some examples of bad writing?.
and why you think it's lunatic raving ?.
withought these my friend, you are just doing the same you are accusing zack of.
in short, be objective.
some examples of bad writing?.
and why you think it's lunatic raving ?.
withought these my friend, you are just doing the same you are accusing zack of.
in short, be objective.
I normally post my book summaries on HN because people get value out of them. In this case, I made a comment on HN, I replied, a discussion ensued, I decided that it was too big for a comment and I'd blog about it. Tichy asked me to submit the post to HN when I was done with it and his request got modded to +5. I would love to hear which part of the writing you think was bad because I have also been told that this was one of my most well written posts yet due to the relaxed tone. (In the past, I have also been accused of having the tone of a hyper rigorous basement-dweller, and although you can't please everyone, a proper balance is maybe the better approach.) If you think that too much of the post is speculation, then you will be appeased to know that most of my points are actually backed up in the bibliography of Flow. Certainly my blog post was not meant to be construed as scholarly - just intellectually interesting and hopefully insightful.
"The Apple marketing machine created a tribe, giving to the rise of superfans whose identity/self-image hinges on being one of the first to own a new product. I don’t know if it’s Apple you should really blame, though. You should blame our culture for allowing the media to manipulate us, brainwashing us, shaping the behavior to work jobs we hate so we can buy things so we can be happy. Media conditioning plays on our innate drives, associating positive possibilities (sex, social acceptance/popularity) with consumer products."
The media isn't some conspiratorial, Big Brother type industry out to make us all unhappy. The image the media provides is simply the one we most readily accept. The enemy is not the media, the enemy is us.
The media isn't some conspiratorial, Big Brother type industry out to make us all unhappy. The image the media provides is simply the one we most readily accept. The enemy is not the media, the enemy is us.
What then is the media in your opinion?
"They" want to make money, and the fast track is to exploit our psychological weaknesses. So they do it.
They are not out to make us unhappy, true. In fact, happy cows live longer and give better milk (allegorically spoken, not sure if that's true in real life). They just want us to seek happiness in things that benefit them.
"The Media" probably included all the small internet sites, too...
"They" want to make money, and the fast track is to exploit our psychological weaknesses. So they do it.
They are not out to make us unhappy, true. In fact, happy cows live longer and give better milk (allegorically spoken, not sure if that's true in real life). They just want us to seek happiness in things that benefit them.
"The Media" probably included all the small internet sites, too...
The enemy is always us.
But that's not the point, the point is that we are susceptible to manipulation, and the media is doing it actively to shape us all into self-destructive consumers.
But that's not the point, the point is that we are susceptible to manipulation, and the media is doing it actively to shape us all into self-destructive consumers.
Again, who is the media? The media is us. They're not a race of aliens hell bent on making humanity care about Kim Kardashian. They're people just like you and me, who have a financial incentive to expose the stories you and I want to hear/read.
The media doesn't shape us, we shape the media with our attention. CNN doesn't derail their entire programming for a week every time a cute little white girl gets abducted because they have some sort of agenda. They do it because if they don't MSNBC will and we'll all watch that channel instead.
That's why I don't watch cable news. I'm more of an Economist kind of guy which is also media, though diametrically opposed to much of the media in philosphy.
Which is yet another reason the original argument is silly. All viewpoints do exist in the media. The media collectively IS doing it's job of putting out a wide variety of information and letting us choose, with our attention, which we want to see. Sadly more people choose Fox News than the Economist. This isn't the media's fault, it's ours.
The media doesn't shape us, we shape the media with our attention. CNN doesn't derail their entire programming for a week every time a cute little white girl gets abducted because they have some sort of agenda. They do it because if they don't MSNBC will and we'll all watch that channel instead.
That's why I don't watch cable news. I'm more of an Economist kind of guy which is also media, though diametrically opposed to much of the media in philosphy.
Which is yet another reason the original argument is silly. All viewpoints do exist in the media. The media collectively IS doing it's job of putting out a wide variety of information and letting us choose, with our attention, which we want to see. Sadly more people choose Fox News than the Economist. This isn't the media's fault, it's ours.
I thoroughly enjoyed the article and actually went to see if I could pick up a copy of Flow. However when I got to Amazon and saw that the Kindle edition (that I wanted) was $2 more than the print edition my experiences clashed with my ego and I went to a torrent site.
I have read Flow twice in the last few years and while I considered it an important work that has shaped my perspective of personal psychology immensely I never understood Flow on a logical level. For me the 'idea' of flow made sense, but I wasn't able to follow the cause-and-effect that made it work.
In other words I accepted the correctness of Flow at a faith-based level rather than at an logic-based level.
In these two sentences, Flow now 'clicks' for me at that logical level: "So complete absorption leads to flow, that great feeling, because all your resources are dedicated to it: the task is precisely challenging enough to engage all of your resources, and nothing more. Since all of your resources are engaged in the task at hand, you no longer feel self-conscious because there’s no “bit” available to mull over your ego or self-image."
This post is not perfect and does contain a bit of speculative wandering, as others have pointed out, but for finally making the circuits of my brain comprehend Flow at a deeper level.. Thank You!
Don't stop writing.
In other words I accepted the correctness of Flow at a faith-based level rather than at an logic-based level.
In these two sentences, Flow now 'clicks' for me at that logical level: "So complete absorption leads to flow, that great feeling, because all your resources are dedicated to it: the task is precisely challenging enough to engage all of your resources, and nothing more. Since all of your resources are engaged in the task at hand, you no longer feel self-conscious because there’s no “bit” available to mull over your ego or self-image."
This post is not perfect and does contain a bit of speculative wandering, as others have pointed out, but for finally making the circuits of my brain comprehend Flow at a deeper level.. Thank You!
Don't stop writing.
Or, alternatively, folks just like the damn phone?
These discussions almost always begin with a (unsubstantiated) assumption that material things are bad. That wanting material wealth is bad. It's the same sort of argument used against hedonists. That satisfaction is only temporary (which I would agree with), and therefore the pursuit of temporary satisfaction is futile and eventually leaves you unfulfilled (which I don't agree with). After all, the true hedonists I've known in my life rank as some of the happiest folks I've met.
My point is simple. There are a lot of ways to be happy and a lot of ways to be miserable. Standing in line for an iPhone may be one way that folks enjoy life. They just really like the phone.
*note: I did not wait in line for an iPhone.
These discussions almost always begin with a (unsubstantiated) assumption that material things are bad. That wanting material wealth is bad. It's the same sort of argument used against hedonists. That satisfaction is only temporary (which I would agree with), and therefore the pursuit of temporary satisfaction is futile and eventually leaves you unfulfilled (which I don't agree with). After all, the true hedonists I've known in my life rank as some of the happiest folks I've met.
My point is simple. There are a lot of ways to be happy and a lot of ways to be miserable. Standing in line for an iPhone may be one way that folks enjoy life. They just really like the phone.
*note: I did not wait in line for an iPhone.
Last Sunday, I took the ferry with two buddies, to Sandy Hook. It is a 30-40 minute trip from the Wall Street pier and then you're on the beach.
Lying in the sun, having drinks, and occasionally venturing into the cold Atlantic (I grew up spening my summers on beaches against he Indian Ocean), for an entire day, was incredibly rejuvenating.
I wasn't thinking about tomorrow or yesterday. Lying on the beach (don't forget sunscreen) has one of the most relaxing effects, and the best is it lasts for one or two days afterwards.
So my suggestion would be, at least now that we have hot weather, go to the beach every weekend and soak up the sun, have a beer/vodka or two, and chill.
Lying in the sun, having drinks, and occasionally venturing into the cold Atlantic (I grew up spening my summers on beaches against he Indian Ocean), for an entire day, was incredibly rejuvenating.
I wasn't thinking about tomorrow or yesterday. Lying on the beach (don't forget sunscreen) has one of the most relaxing effects, and the best is it lasts for one or two days afterwards.
So my suggestion would be, at least now that we have hot weather, go to the beach every weekend and soak up the sun, have a beer/vodka or two, and chill.
When I read the title for this, I was thinking that is was going to be talking about how iDevices free up time for getting bogged down in technical details - so you can create more, so you can get into the state of flow. But it wasn't about that. I'm rereading it again. It's good to get your ideas on paper.
If nothing else, this is the most creative waste of three pages in an attempt to bash Apple that I've seen lately.
And it's very little else. The whole section on "flow" reads like an excuse-digression to distract from the real goal of the post.
And it's very little else. The whole section on "flow" reads like an excuse-digression to distract from the real goal of the post.
It wasn't bashing Apple products. There is nothing wrong with them. It was bashing peoples obsession with material goods and attempting to draw meaning from them.
Well, I'm trying to avoid bashing anything, and instead trying to articulate my perspective on how things work.
Incidentally, I am writing this on a MacBook and have mostly great things to say about my experiences with Apple (except that they were too aggressive in trying to charge me $100+ for a new battery adapter when the cord of my old one started to wear).
Incidentally, I am writing this on a MacBook and have mostly great things to say about my experiences with Apple (except that they were too aggressive in trying to charge me $100+ for a new battery adapter when the cord of my old one started to wear).
I am also using a Macbook Pro and I have an iPhone. I am more than happy with both of them. There is just no way I would ever consider waiting in line for a day for the iPhone 4. My 3gs can last until I can get conveniently get one.
TL;DR version: The wrong self-expectations create disappointment and lead the weak to substance or self-help book abuse.
Edited: Or to buying an iPhone.
Edited: Or to buying an iPhone.
I stopped reading here - it is a stupid generalization and a misunderstanding of the Flow concept, of people in totalitarian regimes and of people in general.
People living in communist Russia were not as naive to have as a personal goal "service of the state", just as an employee in corporate America today doesn't necessarily think of "maximizing shareholder value" the whole day (or whatever is on the bullshit bingo du jour).
In fact, the idea of Csikszentmihalyi's flow is that resourceful people can create/find meaningful activities pretty much regardless of the external environment (above some threshold) which leads to a feeling of happiness.
From what I've heared and read, communist factories were often the hotbeds of creative "hacking": given the nonsensical and weakly enforced rules, people used whatever tools and material they had available to tinker and hack together household items for their own use.