Ask HN: Employed bootcampers, what advice would you give a struggling developer?
3 comments
Hey man, it's Tyler. I feel as though DevMountain did alot to help you. Even to the point of when you left you literally told me you had nothing but good things to say about DevMountain. You were in our program for 6 weeks and received a ton of training and help. Then, after the run in with legal troubles, we legally had to let you go. Our hands were tied as a professional schooling institution. It was unfortunate because you were seriously one of the top students. You think we wanted to let you go? We did not. We loved having you around. We even refunded every cent of your tuition because of the situation you were thrown into. That is a school who cares. That is a program who cares about it's students. You even landed a job after our program. I really don't know what much more we could have done for you given the situation. I really don't know how you can continue to say that you were ripped off?
And most importantly: Do not give up.
You will not get the first position you apply into. Nor the second one. Maybe you have to send dozens of applications without a result. But that's not in vain. In that process, you'll learn about yourself. You'll learn what you know best and what you are passionate about. And after you have figured that out, you modify your application and send it to the next company and before you know it you got yourself a job.
When I have been between jobs I have listed companies with open positions and sent few (4-5) applications per day. First day I usually start from the least ideal/desirable company and work my way towards the dream jobs in. Every day I have read and modified my resume and sent the new version to few other companies. Sometimes less than 10% of these companies have interviewed me and it has taken about ten interviews before I have found a company that is willing to hire me.
So it will take time and effort but you will learn so a lot during the process.
And most importantly: Do not give up.
You will not get the first position you apply into. Nor the second one. Maybe you have to send dozens of applications without a result. But that's not in vain. In that process, you'll learn about yourself. You'll learn what you know best and what you are passionate about. And after you have figured that out, you modify your application and send it to the next company and before you know it you got yourself a job.
When I have been between jobs I have listed companies with open positions and sent few (4-5) applications per day. First day I usually start from the least ideal/desirable company and work my way towards the dream jobs in. Every day I have read and modified my resume and sent the new version to few other companies. Sometimes less than 10% of these companies have interviewed me and it has taken about ten interviews before I have found a company that is willing to hire me.
So it will take time and effort but you will learn so a lot during the process.
I also said 'I don't want to make this about DevMtn but about HR' because I'm trying to move on and start over. I'm getting some help from a support group to leave Utah in the rear view and try one more time but with a clearer mind and stronger will.
Can you imagine trying to escape poverty, moving 2200 miles from home with the hope of starting a new life only to see it collapse like it did? That's a pretty traumatic thing to go through, especially with no friends/family in the area.
When we were in Moab, all I could think about was coming back and starting my project. That was what brought me to Utah. The kid who told on me went through my room when I was in Moab, I know because the cop couldn't find any weed so he left my room to talk to him again. I heard him whisper to the cop, 'check the closet, in the suitcase, outside pocket'. Another student there advised him not to call the cops for something so small and petty. He did it anyways He ended up kicked out himself for God-knows-what. It was a very traumatic experience, a wound that still stings no matter how much I try to forget it.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to sabotage your business, that is not my intention. I'm a college dropout, first-generation American trying to escape poverty. I hope there is a day in the future where my 14 month adventure throughout Utah will be seen in only a positive light because of how much I learned about life out there but it can't happen until I at least make some progress towards my original goal of being able to build what I dream.
Anyways, to make things right I'll drop this whole experience and let it go best I can. The biggest pain for me was my roommate, who seemed to have issues with everyone there but one person. I understand you had no control over that, so I forgive DevMtn.
Sorry again, I'm just struggling to keep my dream alive because it seems like there is a plot twist every time I make a few months of progress.
On the bright side: I've learned how to live through another form of adversity. If all this doesn't kill me, it will make me stronger when it all comes together.
Can you imagine trying to escape poverty, moving 2200 miles from home with the hope of starting a new life only to see it collapse like it did? That's a pretty traumatic thing to go through, especially with no friends/family in the area.
When we were in Moab, all I could think about was coming back and starting my project. That was what brought me to Utah. The kid who told on me went through my room when I was in Moab, I know because the cop couldn't find any weed so he left my room to talk to him again. I heard him whisper to the cop, 'check the closet, in the suitcase, outside pocket'. Another student there advised him not to call the cops for something so small and petty. He did it anyways He ended up kicked out himself for God-knows-what. It was a very traumatic experience, a wound that still stings no matter how much I try to forget it.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to sabotage your business, that is not my intention. I'm a college dropout, first-generation American trying to escape poverty. I hope there is a day in the future where my 14 month adventure throughout Utah will be seen in only a positive light because of how much I learned about life out there but it can't happen until I at least make some progress towards my original goal of being able to build what I dream.
Anyways, to make things right I'll drop this whole experience and let it go best I can. The biggest pain for me was my roommate, who seemed to have issues with everyone there but one person. I understand you had no control over that, so I forgive DevMtn.
Sorry again, I'm just struggling to keep my dream alive because it seems like there is a plot twist every time I make a few months of progress.
On the bright side: I've learned how to live through another form of adversity. If all this doesn't kill me, it will make me stronger when it all comes together.
Have a project. Write code. Just keep writing code. Do not stop writing code. It will be too hard. Do not give up. Persist. Keep writing code. Again and again you will think it is too hard, you are not smart enough. Do not give up, keep writing code. Etc etc
It really is that simple. Not easy but it is very clear what I need to do. I have the capacity to learn the material and overcome adversity, and experience in the field. There isn't much else needed but the will to keep going.
Multiple things, and sorry, but as an European, english is not my native tongue.
First of all, know and acknowledge that as a bootcamper you "know" programming the same way a toddler knows how to run (a marathon) - i.e. you know the basic mechanics but you are a long way from great.
Really good developers have years of practical experiences (my guess is at least 5, maybe 10). As others have said, keep on churning code and you will get better and better (I still learn/"get better" every day after almost 20 years of experience). Most of the things you need to learn are impossible to teach and impossible to even formulate...
Second of all, starting a business, whether it is a Start-up (i.e. VC backed online cat massage reservation system) or a start-up (i.e. the start of an old-fashioned profitable business), is also like running a marathon.. It requires a lot of skill and extreme "keep going at it".
I have a master's degree in business (finance) and I have to say, that having investors seems like a great idea, but is brutal. You get a "large" sum of money, but after a few years you have either made it or are broke (often personally too). The math is so much better for the VC than the entrepreneur (I wrote my masters thesis on this).
Personally I am bootstrapping my company for the 11th year and growing slowly (and profitably). I think I am on the edge of really taking off - but as the saying goes it takes 10 years of preparation to be an overnight-success. I made a lot of costly mistakes, accumulated probably in the 50k USD range, and nearly killed the company more than once...
So concluding, my advice is: - Don't let the impostor syndrome get you (if you have that, but most have, especially the good ones) - Keep writing code and learning - Consider strongly whether you want to make the sacrifices for doing a startup/Startup or just be an employee (nothing wrong with that!) - If you wanna be your own boss, consider strongly whether you wanna bootstrap or get funded. Acknowledge the risk of funding... - If you wanna be an employee, start out by shooting at the junior positions (you still only got a few months of experience...), be honest about your "greenness" but confident in what you know you can do. - Try to find a smallish company without all the hype (i.e. the brown paper bag company). There you get the chance to grow the most (given that you stay there for some time) and they most likely have a stable business model (i.e. can pay your salary "forever" and are not running out of "runway" (VC money)). - Also consider doing more than just programming. Having a working knowledge of sysadmin and networking makes you much more valuable.
But as said, the most important thing (that others also have said)... keep on trucking..
First of all, know and acknowledge that as a bootcamper you "know" programming the same way a toddler knows how to run (a marathon) - i.e. you know the basic mechanics but you are a long way from great.
Really good developers have years of practical experiences (my guess is at least 5, maybe 10). As others have said, keep on churning code and you will get better and better (I still learn/"get better" every day after almost 20 years of experience). Most of the things you need to learn are impossible to teach and impossible to even formulate...
Second of all, starting a business, whether it is a Start-up (i.e. VC backed online cat massage reservation system) or a start-up (i.e. the start of an old-fashioned profitable business), is also like running a marathon.. It requires a lot of skill and extreme "keep going at it".
I have a master's degree in business (finance) and I have to say, that having investors seems like a great idea, but is brutal. You get a "large" sum of money, but after a few years you have either made it or are broke (often personally too). The math is so much better for the VC than the entrepreneur (I wrote my masters thesis on this).
Personally I am bootstrapping my company for the 11th year and growing slowly (and profitably). I think I am on the edge of really taking off - but as the saying goes it takes 10 years of preparation to be an overnight-success. I made a lot of costly mistakes, accumulated probably in the 50k USD range, and nearly killed the company more than once...
So concluding, my advice is: - Don't let the impostor syndrome get you (if you have that, but most have, especially the good ones) - Keep writing code and learning - Consider strongly whether you want to make the sacrifices for doing a startup/Startup or just be an employee (nothing wrong with that!) - If you wanna be your own boss, consider strongly whether you wanna bootstrap or get funded. Acknowledge the risk of funding... - If you wanna be an employee, start out by shooting at the junior positions (you still only got a few months of experience...), be honest about your "greenness" but confident in what you know you can do. - Try to find a smallish company without all the hype (i.e. the brown paper bag company). There you get the chance to grow the most (given that you stay there for some time) and they most likely have a stable business model (i.e. can pay your salary "forever" and are not running out of "runway" (VC money)). - Also consider doing more than just programming. Having a working knowledge of sysadmin and networking makes you much more valuable.
But as said, the most important thing (that others also have said)... keep on trucking..
I'll just strive on, all I can do. I've worked as a technician and a designer for years before getting over my fear of code. I've learned a lot about how all various pieces connect together to create the Internet, I need to deepen my knowledge of those connections now.
I've travelled too far to quit now.
I've travelled too far to quit now.
Long story short: I got a full refund. I don't want to make this about DevMountain. I want to focus on Hack Reactor or something close.
I didn't go back home, I lived out of AirBnb for 2 months and landed a dev job at a shady MLM company. I learned a lot there but it was potentially a Ponzi scheme, so I bailed after a few months alongside most of the other devs. Next, I worked at a Bluehost call center where I focused on Wordpress support and planned out some new ideas in my free time. There was a mass layoff in January of this year and my last day was 3/31. I tried and failed to get into YC as well, it was a crap shoot but I tried anyways.
I'm back where I started from and now doing HR's prep course (free) while hoping to build a passion project into a viable company. I've thought this over a lot but I think I should try one more time and this time not be so naive.
I'm overcoming depression/burn out/disillusionment by taking good care of myself, learning code, designing stuff, and spending time with my family. I think I can do this if I try with beginner's mind and listen to whatever is posted here.
I sincerely appreciate any and all advice, encouragement, and direction. I've never wanted anything so bad in my life.
Thanks