Have you ever tried to sell a diamond?(theatlantic.com)
theatlantic.com
Have you ever tried to sell a diamond?
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/4575/
24 comments
How bout a pic?
Best I can do on the phone right now: http://i.imgur.com/Gj0dp.jpg
Wait! That's a picture from a cell phone? Man, my cell phone cameras (iPhone 2G, Palm Pre) are really behind the times.
Wait! You're browsing Hacker News on your honeymoon?!
Wait! You're browsing Hacker News on your honeymoon?!
Its a nexus one. Pretty good it seems.
I'm also blown away by the imgur apparently on android. It was the easiest thing I've ever uploaded.
I'm also blown away by the imgur apparently on android. It was the easiest thing I've ever uploaded.
My wife has a blue sapphire and she absolutely loves it. As you mentioned, it's very unique and we both like that a lot.
There are the Indian Golkonda diamonds - they are the legendary mines from where some of the most famous and treacherous diamonds were mined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golkonda#Diamonds) - or the Panna diamonds, but I would be very surprised if there wasn'nt a De Beers hand in there somewhere.
Fun fact: If you get a diamond nice and hot (blow torches work great) and then drop it into some pure oxygen, it will burn like the hunk of charcoal it is.
Spending insane amounts of money on a clump of carbon molecules to declare your love seems to me extremely wasteful. If your s.o. really needs a display of conspicuous consumption over spending your - now joint - funds carefully and wisely you might want to talk it over. Easy come easy go, if you have money left over to throw it out more power to you but most people are not in a position to throw away money like this.
Congratulations to the DeBeers marketing department, they've done an excellent job of making people believe this sort of stuff is needed.
Congratulations to the DeBeers marketing department, they've done an excellent job of making people believe this sort of stuff is needed.
That rock is a form of marital financial insurance policy, should she decide to bail on you for whatever reason.
It's small, portable and relatively fungible.
She definitely knows that, too.
And yes, you could call it a reverse dowry.
Or a spousal hedge.
It's small, portable and relatively fungible.
She definitely knows that, too.
And yes, you could call it a reverse dowry.
Or a spousal hedge.
No it isn't, at least not when the article was written, and I can't see why that would have changed in the past 30 years. The article discusses how it's basically impossible to sell a diamond for anything near "market value" (as far as that term makes sense in the context of a global near-monopoly) and how a lot of places won't pay cash for diamonds at all.
Your point certainly sounds reasonable, but it's not how the human mind works. The point of conspicuous consumption is to make believe that the man is "in a position to throw away money like this", because that (imaginary) man is considered to be a good provider/sexually attractive. Talking about it beforehand would be like telling your kids you were going to dress up as Santa Claus to put presents under the tree—the reality is no different, but the fantasy is ruined.
And DeBeers certainly didn't create the notion of conspicuous consumption as a romantic gesture—women have been receiving silver and gold trinkets for millennia, especially ones adorned with various gemstones. DeBeers just popularized diamonds as the gem to be specifically associated with such gestures—and they're a fairly effective/obvious one, too, since they're eye-catching, distinctive, and easy to adorn oneself with.
And DeBeers certainly didn't create the notion of conspicuous consumption as a romantic gesture—women have been receiving silver and gold trinkets for millennia, especially ones adorned with various gemstones. DeBeers just popularized diamonds as the gem to be specifically associated with such gestures—and they're a fairly effective/obvious one, too, since they're eye-catching, distinctive, and easy to adorn oneself with.
You are right that the fantasy needs to be played out and its duly mentioned in the article about the woman already expecting a diamond even though the diamond is a surprise gift. This suspense 'game' was what De Beers invented. I mean they could have marketed black rock if it happened to be their line of business.
> I mean they could have marketed black rock if it happened to be their line of business.
Well, if it happened to be their line of business, and they had a monopoly on the supply of it. It's hard to market things you can find in your back yard.
Well, if it happened to be their line of business, and they had a monopoly on the supply of it. It's hard to market things you can find in your back yard.
Unfortunately, realizing this is not enough. You need your partner to realize it too, or you're out of luck. Good luck presenting a ring of ruby or sapphire; even though they are far prettier stones IMHO, every girl I've met has diamonds stamped into her heart.
I don't agree that _every_ girl does, but if she doesn't, her friends probably do. :)
Sapphires perhaps but I think you're stretching it with rubies. Still, diamonds _are_ beautiful, even if they are more common than people think. And there's the other part of the discussion that these threads often miss—the relative rarity of diamonds doesn't matter a bit when the supply is controlled. If at some point in the future the floodgates open, then yes diamonds will be less valuable but their worth is based on what people are willing to pay and right now they are worth quite a bit.
That said, a nice 4ct cushion cut sapphire with pavé diamonds around the stone would knock the socks off of nearly any girl out there so I wouldn't sweat it one way or another.
That said, a nice 4ct cushion cut sapphire with pavé diamonds around the stone would knock the socks off of nearly any girl out there so I wouldn't sweat it one way or another.
You are basically describing my wife's engagement ring: 2ct yellow saffire, cushion cut, with 3 small diamonds on each side forming a triangle.
It knocks the socks off everyone. That said, we mostly don't correct people who think its diamond (protip: no matter how much you believe it, no-one who just admired your wife's ring wants to hear about blood diamonds or how evil debeers is.)
FYI, rubies are saffires (but you're referring to the colour of course.)
It knocks the socks off everyone. That said, we mostly don't correct people who think its diamond (protip: no matter how much you believe it, no-one who just admired your wife's ring wants to hear about blood diamonds or how evil debeers is.)
FYI, rubies are saffires (but you're referring to the colour of course.)
This was an eye opening experience for me as a younger nerd, something that taught me how truly irrational many humans are. Diamonds are clearly pretty, but buying them props up a cartel and indirectly leads to warfare, enslavement, and death. Clearly a young woman would happily understand why I would have ethical objections to this...
...and to this day, I don't understand how some people's minds even work. (It was a hypothetical discussion and my life wasn't appreciably derailed by this conversation, it's just memorable to me because of the utter incomprehension I felt.)
...and to this day, I don't understand how some people's minds even work. (It was a hypothetical discussion and my life wasn't appreciably derailed by this conversation, it's just memorable to me because of the utter incomprehension I felt.)
It also of course, provides legitimate employment to a lot of people throughout Africa.
If people stopped buying diamonds, it would be a disaster for the continent.
Saying that, I still would hate to buy something that may have been mined by a slave and purchased by a cartel.
If people stopped buying diamonds, it would be a disaster for the continent.
Saying that, I still would hate to buy something that may have been mined by a slave and purchased by a cartel.
If you want to look at the bigger systemic effects, they are these: Africa's very richness in easily exploitable natural resources is exactly the reason there is so much warfare and violence.
There's really no gain to capture economic centers in developed parts of the world, because they do things like finance or entrepreneurship or software which are actually dependent on a stable settled population in a consistent legal system. That's why despite all the gangsters in LA, they just sell drugs instead of taking over Hollywood by force and trying to profit from the film industry. Even when gangsters take something over in this country, it's through infiltration rather than mounting a physical invasion of the city.
African gangsters (better known as "rebels", "paramilitary groups", etc.), on the other hand, can actually take over a diamond mine or something and collect all of the income relatively quickly. Crush the demand for diamonds, and the diamond-rich parts of Africa become that much more stable just because they'll have to work harder to generate wealth. And then, maybe, it won't be worthwhile for the paramilitaries and rebels to attack it.
There's really no gain to capture economic centers in developed parts of the world, because they do things like finance or entrepreneurship or software which are actually dependent on a stable settled population in a consistent legal system. That's why despite all the gangsters in LA, they just sell drugs instead of taking over Hollywood by force and trying to profit from the film industry. Even when gangsters take something over in this country, it's through infiltration rather than mounting a physical invasion of the city.
African gangsters (better known as "rebels", "paramilitary groups", etc.), on the other hand, can actually take over a diamond mine or something and collect all of the income relatively quickly. Crush the demand for diamonds, and the diamond-rich parts of Africa become that much more stable just because they'll have to work harder to generate wealth. And then, maybe, it won't be worthwhile for the paramilitaries and rebels to attack it.
> It also of course, provides legitimate employment to a lot of people throughout Africa.
It's only 'legitimate' and productive because people like them so much; if people stopped liking them so much, then such employment ceases to be legitimate and becomes on par with being paid to dig a ditch and then fill it right back up.
It's only 'legitimate' and productive because people like them so much; if people stopped liking them so much, then such employment ceases to be legitimate and becomes on par with being paid to dig a ditch and then fill it right back up.
If your girlfriend refuses a proposal due to lack of diamonds, you have chosen badly. However, its pretty reasonable for her to refuse if she's dissappointed, so you need to discuss in advance that her ring won't be a diamond. This could be awkward, or worse, it could ruin the surprise.
I got pretty lucky in that I read the article before I met her, and told her about how bad diamonds were early on. That meant we had the discussion years before I proposed. She had diamonds stamped in her heart too, but we compromized, and I went to huge effort to get her an amazing ring.
If the ring is amazing, she'll be OK, and so will her friends.
(My wife points out that she has friends who would have said no, on the basis that if the suitor wouldn't do what she wanted for a proposal, he wasn't the right guy for her. This may sound douchy, but the proposal is hugely important to (some, maybe most) women. So maybe I just got lucky.)
I got pretty lucky in that I read the article before I met her, and told her about how bad diamonds were early on. That meant we had the discussion years before I proposed. She had diamonds stamped in her heart too, but we compromized, and I went to huge effort to get her an amazing ring.
If the ring is amazing, she'll be OK, and so will her friends.
(My wife points out that she has friends who would have said no, on the basis that if the suitor wouldn't do what she wanted for a proposal, he wasn't the right guy for her. This may sound douchy, but the proposal is hugely important to (some, maybe most) women. So maybe I just got lucky.)
Remember that the diamond engagement ring expectation only exists in a few countries. In most of northern europe both partners wear identical plain gold rings, for example.
This article appears to be an excerpt from a longer book on the subject: Epstein, Edward Jay (1982). "THE DIAMOND INVENTION"
The author has a website, http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diamond/prologue.htm with what appears to be the complete contents of the book. I don't know if he's updated it since 1982.
The author has a website, http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diamond/prologue.htm with what appears to be the complete contents of the book. I don't know if he's updated it since 1982.
Epic book, worth a read if anyone enjoyed the article.
Previous discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1110283
I'm amazed in general at the amount of conformity in people surrounding the whole topic of weddings. Not just the ring (btw, diamond rings for engagement is an American cultural thing as far as I know, in Europe the props are different), but the whole dress code and the mandatory steps involved in the event. Wasn't the future supposed to free us from such conventions? I find it funny especially with people who laugh at religious functions as superstition, and then they embrace a totally arbitrary set of made up rules.
Well, rites are important to us as social beings, and we make them elaborate and heavy with tradition so they feel more important. We've always had them, regardless of religion. There's always a need to mark the occasions of births, adulthood, partnership and death.
Add a bit of capitalist profit-hunger, and you end up with companies doing everything they can to maximize the money people spend on the rites, by manipulating the cultural expectations.
Add a bit of capitalist profit-hunger, and you end up with companies doing everything they can to maximize the money people spend on the rites, by manipulating the cultural expectations.
note that this article is from the 1980s, not recent (though still accurate)
The value in this article is not in its particular facts. The real value comes from realizing that such corporate societal manipulation happens all the time to this day.
That's what makes this article a classic. You could change the date to today's, and nothing would seem out of place.
Most of the article talks about stuff dating way-prior to 1982. And the economics described still apply today.
Yeah. The article should maybe deal in depth with the start of De Beers.
De Beers was basically formed by an English colonialist (Cecil John Rhodes). He controlled a company which basically owned a country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_South_Africa_Company).
He also had his own private army and tried to overthrow a sovereign government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jameson_Raid).
De Beers was basically formed by an English colonialist (Cecil John Rhodes). He controlled a company which basically owned a country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_South_Africa_Company).
He also had his own private army and tried to overthrow a sovereign government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jameson_Raid).
Rhodesia was named for him. He also set up the Rhodes Scholarship, which enabled people like Bill Clinton and Bob Hawke to go to Oxford.
Just because he set up a scholarship in his name doesn't make the things he did any better.
One of the aims of the Rhodes scholarship is Anglicization. A person who did not study in English cannot apply (even though he is fluent).
Until recently they also excluded women.
In any cases, the legacy of Rhodes is despicable - even if he left behind a scholarship program. His creation of the state of Zimbabwe (with two different ethnic groups) results in problems to this day.
One of the aims of the Rhodes scholarship is Anglicization. A person who did not study in English cannot apply (even though he is fluent).
Until recently they also excluded women.
In any cases, the legacy of Rhodes is despicable - even if he left behind a scholarship program. His creation of the state of Zimbabwe (with two different ethnic groups) results in problems to this day.
"Just because he set up a scholarship in his name doesn't make the things he did any better."
I don't think I was suggesting that it did.
I don't think I was suggesting that it did.
And the goal of Rhodes in establishing these scholarships for elite students to study in Britain was to establish a global British empire, including "the ultimate recovery of the United States of America as an integral part of the British Empire." (from Rhodes' will) I don't go looking for conspiracy theories but the Rhodes Scholarship is hard to ignore.
the end does not justify the means
Relevant article on the synthetic diamond trade from Wired last year: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond.html
edit: oops I mean 2003; 11.09 was the issue number
edit: oops I mean 2003; 11.09 was the issue number
That's an old article. Gemesis still just makes orange-yellows. Apollo makes white around .5ct. D.NEA has yellows, blue to 1.3ct and white to 1ct.
From 2003, not last year. Here's a 2007 update: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.02/start.html
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I think the link is wrong - that article is on the Concorde aircraft.
It's on "page 6" of that link. I was confused a bit at first too.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.02/start.html?pg=6
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.02/start.html?pg=6
Does anybody know where I could buy a synthetic clear diamond?
They don't come any larger than 0.3 karats, which is too small for a solitaire. You can't get them to match either, which makes them bad for side stones. I tried.
A good alternative is Canadian diamonds, which are not owned by DeBeers, not mined or polished by slaves, and not the cause of any conflict. That solves about half the problems with diamonds.
Get them from Brilliant Earth (I'm not employed there, just a very satisfied customer.)
A good alternative is Canadian diamonds, which are not owned by DeBeers, not mined or polished by slaves, and not the cause of any conflict. That solves about half the problems with diamonds.
Get them from Brilliant Earth (I'm not employed there, just a very satisfied customer.)
Though one could argue that by buying a 'clean' diamond you are increasing the prices for dirty ones.
Not that that makes it immoral to do so. I wouldn't go that far.
Not that that makes it immoral to do so. I wouldn't go that far.
thanks for the tip.
LifeGem sells synthetic diamonds in the .20 to .99 carat range. Either your claim is wrong, or LifeGem are crooks,
It must be my claim which is wrong. I was recounting what a sales person told me. It might instead be that they don't supply them, or might just have been an outright lie.
That said, a one karat stone is no good as a solitaire (the book from the article above talks about this: one karat stones all go into eternity rings, which were invented by debeers due to a massive oversupply of Russian one karat stones. Actually, the book implies that these stones may have been lab stones, as no-one knew where the Russians got so many one karat stones from.)
That said, a one karat stone is no good as a solitaire (the book from the article above talks about this: one karat stones all go into eternity rings, which were invented by debeers due to a massive oversupply of Russian one karat stones. Actually, the book implies that these stones may have been lab stones, as no-one knew where the Russians got so many one karat stones from.)
You could always check out moissanite.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite
Someone would have to really study the ring to realize it wasn't diamond.
Plus it first came from meteorites which puts it high on the geek scale ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite
Someone would have to really study the ring to realize it wasn't diamond.
Plus it first came from meteorites which puts it high on the geek scale ;)
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Don't bother they're about as expensive as natural clear diamonds.
My favorite quote from the article ...
"Watts found that the diamond had mysteriously shrunk in weight to 1.04 carats. One of the jewelers had apparently switched diamonds during the appraisal"
"Watts found that the diamond had mysteriously shrunk in weight to 1.04 carats. One of the jewelers had apparently switched diamonds during the appraisal"
Single page version: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/1982/02/have-you-e...
My fiancee and I had this discussion too. In the end, we decided to forego engagement rings all together and just go with a nice set of tungsten carbide wedding bands.
de beers + venter + toxo = bacteria designed to modify your buying behaviour.
Its been a fantastic fad while it lasts (lasted?) but in the end its always just been "Vans off the wall" for "big people".
I wonder what we'll use next. I've always wanted to give my wife a ring with a bit of a meteorite set in it because, hey, its from outer space. Where does one find such things?
I wonder what we'll use next. I've always wanted to give my wife a ring with a bit of a meteorite set in it because, hey, its from outer space. Where does one find such things?
These guys were able to procure some to make dice. You might start by sending them a note and/or following up on the source they mention.
http://crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Sto...
http://crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Sto...
The banner at the top of the site boasts about winning a lawsuit to prevent someone else (Hasbro) from creating similarly-shaped dice, but the shapes look like they would have ancient origins. Not exactly my kind of company.
Heh. Well, I'm not suggesting he work for them. Just that they may know something about how to procure meteorites. To by knowledge, it's not a big company, so they might be friendly.
They sell them by the kg on eBay. Any jewel maker has the tools to cut a nice piece into the right shape for a ring.
The lesson here is how co-ordinated messaging (propaganda) can continually shape and re-shape broad cultural memes no matter how stupid the memes are.
While in the case of diamonds it's a matter of wasting money, encouraging inane consumerism and odious environmental practices for the sake of a few wealthy oligarchs...
When the same thing happens in politics...
It encourages meaningless consumerism and odious environmental practices for the sake of a few wealthy oligarchs.
The Lesson: Distrust messages from oligarchs.
While in the case of diamonds it's a matter of wasting money, encouraging inane consumerism and odious environmental practices for the sake of a few wealthy oligarchs...
When the same thing happens in politics...
It encourages meaningless consumerism and odious environmental practices for the sake of a few wealthy oligarchs.
The Lesson: Distrust messages from oligarchs.
If it were the other way around: if women had to buy something in order to gain a man's affection and commitment, it would be considered a servile and sexist tradition. Yet somehow the tradition of men buying expensive engagement rings for women survives. I say the heck with that. If she gets an expensive ring, then I want an expensive ring too. Equal rights! :)
I bought her a ring and then she bought me a TV and surround sound system. I get a hot tub later. Then we'll be about even. :)
Have you ever tried to convince a woman of this truth about diamonds?
Interesting, but too long for me to read right now. Does anyone know why De Beers seems to be exempt from U.S. anti-trust laws?
They aren't a US company.
They operate in the US; they are subject to US law.
Their US operations are subject to US law.
They can stay off-shore, sell diamonds to US companies, and ship them in. Unless the US govt is willing to stop US companies from buying or confiscates the shipments or tha payments, there's not much that the US govt can do.
They can stay off-shore, sell diamonds to US companies, and ship them in. Unless the US govt is willing to stop US companies from buying or confiscates the shipments or tha payments, there's not much that the US govt can do.
There's a longstanding case still bouncing around the court system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers_Diamonds_Antitrust_Lit...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers_Diamonds_Antitrust_Lit...
"The settlement provides $295 million to purchasers of diamonds and diamond jewelry, including $130 million to consumers."
Does anyone think it seems like a very low number? Just $130 million for consumers, considering the cartel has been operating for decades and brought in billions?
Does anyone think it seems like a very low number? Just $130 million for consumers, considering the cartel has been operating for decades and brought in billions?
Sounds low to me. And the agreement not to monopolize sounds flimsy. But I'm sure the class action legal firms did just fine.
It's really low, when you remember that antitrust violations carry triple damages, not just single. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Damages)
This link should have had (1982) after the title. Read the whole article only to be very disappointed that it only covered up to 1982 - wtf?
There are some things you don't learn in college... like the truth about these pieces of carbon
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Never even seen one, and I dont get i why diamonds and gold are given so much value. Its true if someone said... the market is driven by women.
Pop history of the diamond trade.
I'm worried it'd fly up my nose! Oh, "sell," not "smell!" My mistake.
Long story short, I'm currently on my honeymoon, and her yellow saffire ring blows everyone away.
If your girlfriend turns you down for lack of a diamond, you have probably chosen poorly. However, she might (reasonably) turn you down if she's dissappointed, so make your feelings known long in advance, or you might be in trouble.
Get your rings at Brilliant Earth in SF (I did my shopping online, and was not dissappointed). They are the only ethical jewelers I've found, and I looked hard. My wife's ring has a large yellow saffire (fair trade from Sri Lanka, mined from shallow mines with a low environmental impact), small diamonds from Canada (sadly lab diamonds are not good enough for jewelry yet), and recycled gold.
The ring is pretty unique, and utterly amazing, and I would recommend this route for any ethically minded person.