Jason Calacanis at his finest(pastebin.com)
pastebin.com
Jason Calacanis at his finest
http://pastebin.com/PSY4iYZ0
23 comments
I think I give some reasonable perspective on the overall issue at the 1:34 minutes mark in this YouTube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf9DUK_4fbg
While the email was obviously a mistake on my part (I would take it back it I could), it was a personal message from me to an employee who I was very disappointed in. It was real--perhaps too real--and it is based on my passion for young people and their potential. Nothing more.
There's a ton of backstory, but I don't want to make this anything more than what it is: a personal issue between a startup founder and a kid with a lot of potential who left to do something else.
Rock on HN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf9DUK_4fbg
While the email was obviously a mistake on my part (I would take it back it I could), it was a personal message from me to an employee who I was very disappointed in. It was real--perhaps too real--and it is based on my passion for young people and their potential. Nothing more.
There's a ton of backstory, but I don't want to make this anything more than what it is: a personal issue between a startup founder and a kid with a lot of potential who left to do something else.
Rock on HN
[deleted]
> For all we know, the guy might have done something quite bad.
Line 46-48 in that email are pretty clear.
Gracious and leaving, maybe in person would have been better, but as those emails come it is pretty good.
It's not as though he was fired.
Line 46-48 in that email are pretty clear.
Gracious and leaving, maybe in person would have been better, but as those emails come it is pretty good.
It's not as though he was fired.
Yes but for all you know he could have just spent thousands sending him to conferences or some other specialized training only to have him turn around and quit for a competitor. (I have no idea if that's the case but have seen things like that happen at other businesses) Either way it would be nice if hacker news didn't focus on this drama.
I've been an employer, and even though stuff like that happens, that's life and you have to calculate that in.
But Evan clearly does not seem to be aware of any reason like that, he's literally clearly confused about the amount of venom that gets thrown his way, for exercising a right that every employee has, to hand in their notice.
To go to work for a large company like Yahoo and to be allowed to work on an open source project is in and off itself plenty of reason to switch and any mature employer would recognize that.
But Evan clearly does not seem to be aware of any reason like that, he's literally clearly confused about the amount of venom that gets thrown his way, for exercising a right that every employee has, to hand in their notice.
To go to work for a large company like Yahoo and to be allowed to work on an open source project is in and off itself plenty of reason to switch and any mature employer would recognize that.
we're still outside looking in, because writing good emails doesn't reflect a person's actions in real life. I've seen it before, people lying through their teeth .. much less just typing good emails for proper documentation purposes.
we do know calacanis went on to publicly denigrate the former employee. it doesn't make me think there's more to "his half" than juvenile petulance.
>"Free advice for entitled Gen Y trophy kids: if you spend 12 months at a company over and over you look like a flake." 10:06 PM Apr 21st via Twitter for BlackBerry®
http://twitter.com/Jason/status/12621363849
>"Free advice for entitled Gen Y trophy kids: if you spend 12 months at a company over and over you look like a flake." 10:06 PM Apr 21st via Twitter for BlackBerry®
http://twitter.com/Jason/status/12621363849
I'm beginning to resent that my generation has been dubbed the "Trophy Kids." Those trophies were more for parental egos than our own self-esteem. We weren't dumb, we knew it was just a meaningless participation trinket. Most of those things ended up going in the trash unless your parents mandated you keep them (Mine didn't, thankfully). I think I'd keep them around for a year or two just for the sake of having a knick-nack, until I needed the space for a model.
Agreed. Blaming a whole generation is silly. If you want to play that game, then blame the parents of the trophy kids who decided that it was a good idea to give everyone a participation trophy.
> Blaming a whole generation is silly.
Is anyone really doing that? I see Trophy Kids (btw, new term for me, and I am one, I suppose) as a characterization rather than blame. There is no doubt the term is pejorative, but if I think canned green beans taste like crap, am I blaming the beans, the can, the producer, or am I not placing any blame at all?
FWIW, I do agree that parents are largely responsible for their children's behavior.
Is anyone really doing that? I see Trophy Kids (btw, new term for me, and I am one, I suppose) as a characterization rather than blame. There is no doubt the term is pejorative, but if I think canned green beans taste like crap, am I blaming the beans, the can, the producer, or am I not placing any blame at all?
FWIW, I do agree that parents are largely responsible for their children's behavior.
I always thought that "trophy kids" didn't refer to trophies earned for kid-competitions, but rather as an allusion to "trophy wives".
It's just thinly concealed envy. Older generations have always looked down on the young.
Withholding judgement and taking that tweet at face value, it does touch on something important. Usually when entering a job, a candidate will be excited and say just about anything. "Hell yeah I could see myself here for the next 5 years!" Who knows if that happened here.
The employer may take on certain expectations, possibility choosing a hire based on that enthusiasm and apparent commitment. Either way, no one expects a new employee to a) dislike a place soon after coming onboard, or b) abruptly take another offer. Is 12 months abrupt? Depends on the expectations.
It's a difficult situation that has to be handled tactfully on both sides. Doesn't appear to have happened here: Jason for his response, Evan for resigning _via email_.
The employer may take on certain expectations, possibility choosing a hire based on that enthusiasm and apparent commitment. Either way, no one expects a new employee to a) dislike a place soon after coming onboard, or b) abruptly take another offer. Is 12 months abrupt? Depends on the expectations.
It's a difficult situation that has to be handled tactfully on both sides. Doesn't appear to have happened here: Jason for his response, Evan for resigning _via email_.
Plenty of people resign via email simply to make it official. That's where the whole 'handing in your notice' expression comes from, people used to literally hand deliver their termination letter, these days letters are emails so it is a logical - even if it feels rude - development.
I'm admittedly assuming, based on the severity of Jason's reaction, that the email was the first he'd heard of Evan's resignation.
Had it been a face-to-face conversation, then a letter, the fireworks could have been avoided. Speaking from first-hand experience, it can be absolutely gut-wrenching, but ultimately feels like the right thing to do.
Had it been a face-to-face conversation, then a letter, the fireworks could have been avoided. Speaking from first-hand experience, it can be absolutely gut-wrenching, but ultimately feels like the right thing to do.
In light of the response, you could even say that mahalo employees might prefer to resign via email rather than to face the full brunt of the response in person, your assumption could easily be right and there might be a good reason for it.
I am sorry, maybe I'm old school but resigning by email is weak. If you think you know how it'll go, prepare, have a response ready. Maybe, you'll be surprised at the very least you will be respected for walking in the door.
and usually when interviewing for a job, suggesting you might not stick around for a long as is convenient for the company will disqualify you.
invariably hr gives you the "we're looking for someone will grow with the company ... ", and you're expected to oblige them with some reassuring "enthusiasm".
invariably hr gives you the "we're looking for someone will grow with the company ... ", and you're expected to oblige them with some reassuring "enthusiasm".
Nothing like a greencard application to show such "enthusiasm"!
I've failed to get offers when I've been up front and said, "I'll leave in two years if I'm not challenged anymore." And that's okay, because it probably wasn't a good fit.
It's only more from one side of the story, but Evan noted on his Twitter feed that there was previously no anomisity between the two of them. FWIW.
> For all we know, the guy might have done something quite bad.
Ultimately it doesn't really matter; Jason has a poor reputation here anyway and, assuming this is the full email conversation, this goes a long way to proving why.
How you treat people that piss you off is important in any business; acting like that looks immature and hissy. Polite anger would seem the correct response (if he was angry) - otherwise it just looks like your throwing toys out of a pram.
Ultimately it doesn't really matter; Jason has a poor reputation here anyway and, assuming this is the full email conversation, this goes a long way to proving why.
How you treat people that piss you off is important in any business; acting like that looks immature and hissy. Polite anger would seem the correct response (if he was angry) - otherwise it just looks like your throwing toys out of a pram.
From the source's mouth: "I've never worked with such a great team and learned so much in such a short period of time. I owe all of it to the opportunity you've given me, Jason and I thank you immensely for that."
So we have a one-sided story, from a source who contradicts himself. I'd rather not jump to conclusions just yet.
So we have a one-sided story, from a source who contradicts himself. I'd rather not jump to conclusions just yet.
Where is the contradiction there? It seems like a standard "it's been great but I have an even better opportunity to go for" email.
In fact; it could well be complete bunk. He might have hated working there. But if so it's an example of how to deal with these situations - polite and positive.
In fact; it could well be complete bunk. He might have hated working there. But if so it's an example of how to deal with these situations - polite and positive.
I've been "burned" by exactly what pg just said, on Reddit too. And I agree, because with the labor laws, the employer has more to lose than the employee if they aired certain things. For our non-US people, in California, there are laws that specify that ex-employers cannot say bad things about an employee (a bad one or not), to the employee's next prospective employer.
As the employee, you get away with some things that "structurally" (as pg said) from the legal perspective that employers cannot.
As the employee, you get away with some things that "structurally" (as pg said) from the legal perspective that employers cannot.
Another perspective: in some states, such as Pennsylvania, employment by law is "at will" and you can be fired/sacked/relieved "without cause."
So you might lose your job. You'll get a reference but nothing that your future employer is really going to base a hiring decision on.
I'm not convinced that the old employer loses any money by replacing and retraining employees once you subtract raises that would have been earned and benefits, so I tend to think there's still a tremendous amount of power on the side of the company rather than the employee.
So you might lose your job. You'll get a reference but nothing that your future employer is really going to base a hiring decision on.
I'm not convinced that the old employer loses any money by replacing and retraining employees once you subtract raises that would have been earned and benefits, so I tend to think there's still a tremendous amount of power on the side of the company rather than the employee.
Almost every state is like that, with a few exceptions only.
The corporation is favored by law over the individual in almost every law that governs corporate-individual commerce, of any kind, in the US.
And they wonder why their employees don't feel loyal.
The corporation is favored by law over the individual in almost every law that governs corporate-individual commerce, of any kind, in the US.
And they wonder why their employees don't feel loyal.
I don't care so much about fairness--tabloid culture makes it impossible and is not going away--but I am saddened for such a "story" to rise so quickly on HN.
As much as Mahalo is a total diarrhea stain on the internet, and as much as I'll vote up articles about yet another angle of its spamminess, Calacanis' internal business stuff is simply not apropos.
As much as Mahalo is a total diarrhea stain on the internet, and as much as I'll vote up articles about yet another angle of its spamminess, Calacanis' internal business stuff is simply not apropos.
It would be nice if Internet culture could evolve to reserve judgment when a story like this appeared, in the same way it has evolved not to trust any story that appears in a much-forwarded email. I would be proud if HN was the place that mutation began.
I'll keep this goal in mind, and try to remind participants here not to jump to conclusions based on first, partial reports.
BTW, the comparison to how skeptically we read forwarded emails makes the point well. We should treat most blog postings, and especially most viral tweets, in much the same way.
I'll keep this goal in mind, and try to remind participants here not to jump to conclusions based on first, partial reports.
BTW, the comparison to how skeptically we read forwarded emails makes the point well. We should treat most blog postings, and especially most viral tweets, in much the same way.
Even if this is the whole story, the pose of righteous anger by many commenters is silly overkill.
So, Calacanis got emotional and snippy about losing an employee. It shows he cares. Despite the armchair philosophizing about its effects on morale or recruiting, it might be a net win for the Mahalo team for Calacanis to show a little anger/disapproval/impatience when this happens.
You'd think some of the finger-wagging fuddy-duddies had never heard the stories about Steve Jobs' "soft touch" with employees and partners...
So, Calacanis got emotional and snippy about losing an employee. It shows he cares. Despite the armchair philosophizing about its effects on morale or recruiting, it might be a net win for the Mahalo team for Calacanis to show a little anger/disapproval/impatience when this happens.
You'd think some of the finger-wagging fuddy-duddies had never heard the stories about Steve Jobs' "soft touch" with employees and partners...
Even Steve Jobs was smart enough to use reality distortion rather than lose his temper when someone quit: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s...
There are plenty of reports of Jobs berating people mercilessly, and firing people on passing whims.
Compared to that, Calacanis making the resignation effective immediately -- often a good practice for other reasons -- and taking a couple parting potshots at an employee's choice/tenure-length and new employer is mild.
Compared to that, Calacanis making the resignation effective immediately -- often a good practice for other reasons -- and taking a couple parting potshots at an employee's choice/tenure-length and new employer is mild.
Suggested rewrite:
Hey Evan,
We're mighty sorry, but we understand. If things don't work out at yahoo! as planned we want you to know the door is always open to return, after all we hate to see you go.
Please tell the rest of your team that you go with our blessing and that we look forward to seeing you do great things in the future. We all know if there is one thing they need over there it is quality people.
Since we still owe you more vacation days than your severance we can of course not hold you to stay longer but we'd really appreciate it if you could somehow squeeze out an extra few days to transfer your duties to John, of course we'll compensate you for that.
All the best!
j
Hey Evan,
We're mighty sorry, but we understand. If things don't work out at yahoo! as planned we want you to know the door is always open to return, after all we hate to see you go.
Please tell the rest of your team that you go with our blessing and that we look forward to seeing you do great things in the future. We all know if there is one thing they need over there it is quality people.
Since we still owe you more vacation days than your severance we can of course not hold you to stay longer but we'd really appreciate it if you could somehow squeeze out an extra few days to transfer your duties to John, of course we'll compensate you for that.
All the best!
j
That's good. It reminds me of TheDailyWTF's piece on a "culture of quitting": http://thedailywtf.com/articles/up-or-out-solving-the-it-tur...
It would be ideal if an employee parting ways didn't seem like a betrayal or bad break-up.
It would be ideal if an employee parting ways didn't seem like a betrayal or bad break-up.
I'm still in contact with quite a few of my ex employees from over a decade ago. It's a small world, and burning your bridges is always bad form and potentially very harmful to your company.
If you fire the wrong person like that/send off emails like that it could easily lead to a mass walk-out by sympathizers, so it is not only 'nice' to be nice, it also makes good business sense.
Who knows when and how you run in to each other again.
If you fire the wrong person like that/send off emails like that it could easily lead to a mass walk-out by sympathizers, so it is not only 'nice' to be nice, it also makes good business sense.
Who knows when and how you run in to each other again.
I think it would be legitimate to express some disappointment that the employee decided to tell you he was resigning via a mass email rather than in person or even via a phone call.
Agreed, that would have been more classy.
But as these emails go (and they do, I've been on the receiving end of a few of those) it's about as good as they get.
But as these emails go (and they do, I've been on the receiving end of a few of those) it's about as good as they get.
Considering Jason's response, I would think Evan had good reason to think that a phone call might not offer him the opportunity to properly express why he's leaving and his appreciation for the job. He may also not want to subject himself to such treatment on the phone.
a mass email to 3 addresses?
Having been through a few conflicts myself, as an independent observer and as one of the parties in the conflict .. I'm not taking sides, but just wanting to note that although the employer definitely could have handled it better, I have a feeling we're only scratching the tip of the surface and we don't know much what really happened between the employer-employee.
The "pack and get out now" is actually very standard upon resignation, but more so for sales people, less engineers, unless .. there's something going on (which obviously we don't know).
Btw, as the employee: resigning via email is also not very classy, and could be done better: e.g. handing an official resignation letter in person to your direct superior face to face.
Just a suggestion. Also, if you want to air your dirty laundry, come forth with the stuff that you didn't tell us about. There's 2 kinds of lies:
(1) commission: you explicitly fabricate non-facts
(2) omission: where you fail to mention details that matter
Both are still lies. I think the employee knows how snowball started, but is refraining from telling the public. Which if that was the case, perhaps it shouldn't have been brought to light in the first place - because that'd mean the employee wants public to make a decision street-justice-style based on incomplete information.
The "pack and get out now" is actually very standard upon resignation, but more so for sales people, less engineers, unless .. there's something going on (which obviously we don't know).
Btw, as the employee: resigning via email is also not very classy, and could be done better: e.g. handing an official resignation letter in person to your direct superior face to face.
Just a suggestion. Also, if you want to air your dirty laundry, come forth with the stuff that you didn't tell us about. There's 2 kinds of lies:
(1) commission: you explicitly fabricate non-facts
(2) omission: where you fail to mention details that matter
Both are still lies. I think the employee knows how snowball started, but is refraining from telling the public. Which if that was the case, perhaps it shouldn't have been brought to light in the first place - because that'd mean the employee wants public to make a decision street-justice-style based on incomplete information.
Who's to say that Evan only resigned via this communication to the team? Presumably, as an honorable individual he resigned to management privately, and then in addition sent a mail to the team stating the facts of his resignation, thanking them and wishing them well. That's the classy way to go about it.
If that was the first communication he had with Mahalo about his resignation, bad on him. Given my perception of Jason (as a douche-nozzle leach/blight on the internet), it wouldn't surprise me at all if he tried to portray it as if that was the first and only communication from Evan to Mahalo and that Evan was somehow the bad guy here. Employees quit. Get the F over it, and don't extend your reputation as a petulant out-for-number-one dickhead.
If that was the first communication he had with Mahalo about his resignation, bad on him. Given my perception of Jason (as a douche-nozzle leach/blight on the internet), it wouldn't surprise me at all if he tried to portray it as if that was the first and only communication from Evan to Mahalo and that Evan was somehow the bad guy here. Employees quit. Get the F over it, and don't extend your reputation as a petulant out-for-number-one dickhead.
Frankly even quitting via email would only be a minor count against him to me. Having difficult conversations face to face is a skill not everyone possesses, that was a polite and professional resignation letter no matter the delivery (or whether he was lying through his teeth) and the proper response in a business context is "We're sorry to hear that, good luck at Yahoo!." especially if you mean what Jason wrote.
Is 2 weeks notice common in the USA? Here in Europe it's 1 month or 3 months, depending on what contract you have.
It's a common courtesy, but not required unless you have a contract that says so.
Most workers in the US do not have contracts and can quit at any time, just as they can be let go from their jobs without reason.
Most workers in the US do not have contracts and can quit at any time, just as they can be let go from their jobs without reason.
Yes, two weeks is the norm. In Canada too.
In Spain (last I checked we're in Europe) the most usual are two weeks by default. Contracts can extend it or you can leave at once while in the "test period", fair because during this period the employer can fire you at once too without cause.
You can leave immediately even subjected to this clauses, but then you suffer a penalization (one day of pay each two days you cut). Most times, the company owes you money at any given time (holidays, extra pays), so it's wise to stay unless the new salary nulls the difference. Also it's always good to keep good will with former employers, you never know.
You can leave immediately even subjected to this clauses, but then you suffer a penalization (one day of pay each two days you cut). Most times, the company owes you money at any given time (holidays, extra pays), so it's wise to stay unless the new salary nulls the difference. Also it's always good to keep good will with former employers, you never know.
2 weeks is courtesy, and standard. In California, it's "at will" employment .. meaning, the employee can quit with or without notice, but the employee can also fire, with or without notice. That said, there's a lot of labor laws to comply with, so companies in practice don't just fire people at will (they can be sued by the now ex-employee). But yeah, in this part of the world, 2 weeks is courtesy. No courtesy is rude, and you're "burning the bridge".
Actually, it's the opposite.
The moment you give the employee a reason, you open the door to a lawsuit. The best way to let someone go is simply say "your services are no longer required" and leave it at that.
The moment you give the employee a reason, you open the door to a lawsuit. The best way to let someone go is simply say "your services are no longer required" and leave it at that.
[deleted]
Seriously, Jason Calacanis has not done anything considered smart since he sold Weblogs, Inc. to AOL.
Other than that he's not a graceful entrepreneur and an attention seeker (I refrain myself from using a harsher term).
Other than that he's not a graceful entrepreneur and an attention seeker (I refrain myself from using a harsher term).
1. Mahalo is a top 200 site, over 10M uniques and operationally profitable.
2. Open Angel Forum has been hosting in five cities in the first four months of 2010.
3. I've done seven angel investments including gdgt.com, gowalla.com and blippy.com.
4. TechCrunch50 has made millions of dollars, but more importantly launched amazing startups like Mint.com, Powerset and yammer.
5. This Week in Startups about to have it's one-year anniversary and advertising has been sold out for two years. Also, ThisWeekIn.com is closing a small angel round and have almost 10 shows.
6. ON the board of Savings.com, GDGT and another company not yet announced.
I'd list ten more things... but it would start to get a little silly.
I'm getting a lot done these days, but you are correct I'm far from graceful. I'm blunt and to the point... sometimes I say things in private, or public, that I shouldn't.
A private thing that should have stayed private is now public. Yawn. There is more to the story, but I'm not going to comment HR issues publicly--that would not be professional. Part of me would love to unload however.
best j
2. Open Angel Forum has been hosting in five cities in the first four months of 2010.
3. I've done seven angel investments including gdgt.com, gowalla.com and blippy.com.
4. TechCrunch50 has made millions of dollars, but more importantly launched amazing startups like Mint.com, Powerset and yammer.
5. This Week in Startups about to have it's one-year anniversary and advertising has been sold out for two years. Also, ThisWeekIn.com is closing a small angel round and have almost 10 shows.
6. ON the board of Savings.com, GDGT and another company not yet announced.
I'd list ten more things... but it would start to get a little silly.
I'm getting a lot done these days, but you are correct I'm far from graceful. I'm blunt and to the point... sometimes I say things in private, or public, that I shouldn't.
A private thing that should have stayed private is now public. Yawn. There is more to the story, but I'm not going to comment HR issues publicly--that would not be professional. Part of me would love to unload however.
best j
1. you could be #3, I couldn't care less, mahalo does not exactly contribute, it just rehashes.
2. good for you
3. The only one I've heard of is 'blippy', and that's only because of some fairly sloppy coding there.
4. great. I'm fairly sure they would have made it without your personal contribution though, you can't possibly take personal credit for that, just like Paul Graham doesn't take personal credit for dropbox or any one of the other YC investments.
And so on. The list would indeed be silly if you continued.
You're one hell of an entrepreneur, I'll give you that but you're way out of line in how you treat people and the basic business model of mahalo simply sucks.
Do you really believe that even if such email should stay private that that absolves you of what you wrote there?
I used to look up to you, that has changed dramatically in the last 18 months or so.
2. good for you
3. The only one I've heard of is 'blippy', and that's only because of some fairly sloppy coding there.
4. great. I'm fairly sure they would have made it without your personal contribution though, you can't possibly take personal credit for that, just like Paul Graham doesn't take personal credit for dropbox or any one of the other YC investments.
And so on. The list would indeed be silly if you continued.
You're one hell of an entrepreneur, I'll give you that but you're way out of line in how you treat people and the basic business model of mahalo simply sucks.
Do you really believe that even if such email should stay private that that absolves you of what you wrote there?
I used to look up to you, that has changed dramatically in the last 18 months or so.
And to bring the point further: no one cares what you accomplish if you act like a total asshat while doing it. Mussolini and some trains come to mind.
Mussolini and some trains come to mind.
... and we've reached the Godwin point!
(considering Fascism as a proxy for Nazism)
... and we've reached the Godwin point!
(considering Fascism as a proxy for Nazism)
Thank you, at least now I've learnt something from this silly drama thread :)
Isn't that being a little harsh? I don't really know anything about this Calcianis guy (until now I thought Mahalo was a brand of shoes), but has he done anything to inspire your ire apart from writing one jerkish email?
> has he done anything to inspire your ire apart from writing one jerkish email?
It's been an ongoing thing, mostly related to his company being pretty spammy, but there are other episodes mixed in as well: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+cal...
It's been an ongoing thing, mostly related to his company being pretty spammy, but there are other episodes mixed in as well: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+cal...
The use of "asshat" made my day.
Agreed.
Agreed.
I don't really get where you're coming from. I have no opinion on this one way or the other but I don't see a point in messing with someone here. I think that his company makes a profit is a sign of something good for society at least by some measure. Mahalo isn't Goldman Sachs so to say he's not contributing anything is a bit hard to say from afar. I doubt his employees feel like they're wasting their lives. Maybe they are but I'm not sure anyone from this far could suggest that to them. They know better than we do.
Being a part of something bigger than yourself is something to be proud of. I'm a part of a lot of teams and organizations and while I don't credit for their success (or failures) I might point to them as evidence that I'm at least keeping busy. Promoting startups is a noble endeavor as far as I'm concerned. I'm very inspired by how many people want to encourage people who want to start something of their own. It's something anyone who does it should be proud of.
Being a part of something bigger than yourself is something to be proud of. I'm a part of a lot of teams and organizations and while I don't credit for their success (or failures) I might point to them as evidence that I'm at least keeping busy. Promoting startups is a noble endeavor as far as I'm concerned. I'm very inspired by how many people want to encourage people who want to start something of their own. It's something anyone who does it should be proud of.
"A private thing that should have stayed private is now public."
Funny... Sam Odio thought the same thing.
http://sam.bluwiki.com/blog/2010/03/confession-i-was-one-who...
Funny... Sam Odio thought the same thing.
http://sam.bluwiki.com/blog/2010/03/confession-i-was-one-who...
Touché, I'd completely forgotten about that little gem.
You already have been commenting on HR issues publicly. Why stop now?
No, to be professional would mean not sending that private email in the first place. It actually makes me wonder how you treat your customers if they piss you off.
Way to toot your own horn. 37prime is clearly quite right about the attention seeking part too.
I think he's allowed to toot his own horn in response to a comment suggesting that he hasn't done anything worthwhile in a decade.
[deleted]
I'm sure there's more to the story, but you gain nothing by being an arsehole to someone who's put their time and effort into one of your businesses. Even if someone's a grade A walking disaster area, there's more to lose than gain by being shitty with them.
Still, your business, your rules.
Still, your business, your rules.
Regardless of what you may have accomplished, your handling if this guys resignation was incredibly immature. You sounded like a petulant 3 year old.
Blippy? Isn't that the incompetents that just lost of customer credit card numbers and then blew it off like it was no big deal?
There's something to be proud of.....
There's something to be proud of.....
At least everyone else at Mahalo now knows how to leave the company--no hints and fuck yous on the way out. Don't let Jason beat you to the punch. Bonus points if you quit during the most critical time of a time sensitive project.
I think it's best if this doesn't get killed for the 20th time. It's clearly not going to go away until it's had the usual rise and fall on HN.
It never ceases to amaze me the entitlement mentality that some employers have. When they decide to lay off a group of employees, it's just business. But when an employ quits to peruse other opportunities suddenly it's a big betrayal and "how could they be so disloyal".
(obviously this only applies to some employers. I've worked for some employers who were very compassionate and mature for both layoffs and resignations).
(obviously this only applies to some employers. I've worked for some employers who were very compassionate and mature for both layoffs and resignations).
I'm just going to ask a question to the 110 people that voted for this "story".
Do we really think it's appropriate to air a company's dirty laundry and/or conflicts on Hacker News? I mean, that's the type of shit they do over at TMZ isn't it? Gossip about people?
I don't care who's an ass, who's been wronged and who has sand in their ovaries today. I don't come to HN for this.
Do we really think it's appropriate to air a company's dirty laundry and/or conflicts on Hacker News? I mean, that's the type of shit they do over at TMZ isn't it? Gossip about people?
I don't care who's an ass, who's been wronged and who has sand in their ovaries today. I don't come to HN for this.
I'm glad that this was posted. I applied to Mahalo a few days ago because it's a Django gig in southern California. I was hesitant to apply because of some of the stories I had heard about Jason. However, I try to judge things as I see them, and wanted to give it a shot.
I'm glad that this came out, because it's given me some more perspective on Mahalo and Jason.
I'm glad that this came out, because it's given me some more perspective on Mahalo and Jason.
I saw ads for Mahalo on CL in the last few days too and have purposely avoided them because I don't want the tarnishment of either Mahalo (a mass spammer) or Jason on my resume or psyche.
I think it's a valuable case study in employee relations gone wrong.
Hopefully someday, in years to come, somebody on the verge of writing a similar email will suddenly remember this story and think better of it.
Hopefully someday, in years to come, somebody on the verge of writing a similar email will suddenly remember this story and think better of it.
I guess I'd be happy to have an HN that was just technical content, with no VC/startup/funding/biz stuff at all. But if we're going to have it, might as well have the bad stuff too, not just the horn-tooting TechCrunch links...
Well said. Lately many of the items posted on HN seem to be more about drama than thought provoking subjects.
You almost wonder if there's messages missing from this middle of this. Incredible.
I've never worked at a company where I tried to be professional and gave 2 weeks notice and was NOT immediately shown the door (hence I learned to prepare and not be surprised).
Does it really happen in this day and age? Don't companies lockout high value employees immediately as a matter of security and anti-sabotage?
Does it really happen in this day and age? Don't companies lockout high value employees immediately as a matter of security and anti-sabotage?
Your experience is diametrically opposed to mine. Here is how my last 4 jobs have worked out. (This is all in the USA.)
#1: I gave several months notice. At their suggestion I took me my last week off paid in return for being willing to answer emails if problems arose after I left.
#2: I gave 2 weeks notice. I was personally thanked by multiple people for how I wrapped it up, and for a final project that I took on and did in my last 4 hours. They asked me to contract for them some time later, but it didn't work out.
#3: I gave 2 weeks notice. I got contracting work from them after I left, and still have VPN access.
#4: I gave a month notice and had a break before my next job. (A vacation which I spent contracting for #3.) I told them that during that period I would be available on an emergency basis if anything broke. They were happy to take me up on this offer.
In every case I was considered a high value employee. However I had established trust, that was maintained through the process of my leaving, and to the best of my knowledge that trust still exists. (As a matter of corporate policy, my access was usually withdrawn after I left. But not because anyone was concerned about me personally.)
#1: I gave several months notice. At their suggestion I took me my last week off paid in return for being willing to answer emails if problems arose after I left.
#2: I gave 2 weeks notice. I was personally thanked by multiple people for how I wrapped it up, and for a final project that I took on and did in my last 4 hours. They asked me to contract for them some time later, but it didn't work out.
#3: I gave 2 weeks notice. I got contracting work from them after I left, and still have VPN access.
#4: I gave a month notice and had a break before my next job. (A vacation which I spent contracting for #3.) I told them that during that period I would be available on an emergency basis if anything broke. They were happy to take me up on this offer.
In every case I was considered a high value employee. However I had established trust, that was maintained through the process of my leaving, and to the best of my knowledge that trust still exists. (As a matter of corporate policy, my access was usually withdrawn after I left. But not because anyone was concerned about me personally.)
I've had several developer coworkers leave -- it's always been with 2 week notice, a nice lunch, and a farewell e-mail from the boss thanking them for their contributions.
Would not work somewhere that handled employees leaving that way. Sorry Mr. Calacanis!
Would not work somewhere that handled employees leaving that way. Sorry Mr. Calacanis!
I've even seen companies ask people to stay for more than the two weeks, to make sure they have time to document miscellaneous loose ends and do some mini-training of their successor. But those were at big engineering firms, which might operate differently? I've never heard of an engineer at a place like Exxon being locked out after giving notice. A VP or something sure, but a petroleum engineer typically sticks around. Besides looking unprofessional, locking them out would be bad for the firm, because they almost invariably have some materials in their head or at home that you really need them to document and tie up so their successor doesn't spend months on archaeology to figure out what's going on.
Employees who are fired or laid off sometimes are locked out, but that's a more confrontational situation where the employer might fear retaliation.
Employees who are fired or laid off sometimes are locked out, but that's a more confrontational situation where the employer might fear retaliation.
The only employee I ever fired on the spot and locked out had started a competing business on the side and was actively poaching our customers+, other than that it always was amicably, whether I asked someone to find employment where they fit better or whether they found a place where they could do better there never ever was a reason to 'lock someone out'.
Admitted, this was a small company, at a larger company it might have been different because of rigid policies.
When I was employed myself (long long ago, fortunately) I usually ended up with some contract work from my ex employer to help them tide over until they had found a good replacement, in one case this period extended for 6 months.
edit:
+) To be fair, he actually emailed me last year, almost a decade after it happened that he was terribly sorry about what he did, so in the end even with him I'm still in contact of sorts, and I've forgiven him for what he did, he really seems to have learned his lesson.
Admitted, this was a small company, at a larger company it might have been different because of rigid policies.
When I was employed myself (long long ago, fortunately) I usually ended up with some contract work from my ex employer to help them tide over until they had found a good replacement, in one case this period extended for 6 months.
edit:
+) To be fair, he actually emailed me last year, almost a decade after it happened that he was terribly sorry about what he did, so in the end even with him I'm still in contact of sorts, and I've forgiven him for what he did, he really seems to have learned his lesson.
At my previous employment, I had a specially negotiated extra notice period as part of my contract. So when I resigned to start Synctus, it didn't even occur to me that I might be shown the door straight away. I worked my full notice period, left on very good terms, and still collaborate closely with them. I don't think I would have been in the position of being a "high value employee" had this trust not already existed.
I suppose it does depend on the situation - in particular the trust that already exists - and this is probably also related to the size of the company.
This is in England. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that things work differently in the US.
I suppose it does depend on the situation - in particular the trust that already exists - and this is probably also related to the size of the company.
This is in England. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that things work differently in the US.
I've seen several people leave at places I've worked, but never seen one of them locked out. When people are asked to "resign" I've seen them told to finish out their paid term at home, but that's obviously a lot more confrontational than someone who chooses to leave.
It happens all of the time. For many situations, there is considerable risk in letting somebody hang around for two weeks. The employee's mind is going to be elsewhere. He will be excited about the new job, and eager to talk to co-workers about the move. The employee may even decide to save some of his more valuable work to use in the next gig.
The manager is almost always better off by letting the departing employee off immediately to hedge risk. You pay him for the two weeks, and let him sit at home.
What I find most puzzling is why announce the resignation via email? This is almost always best done face to face, or at least via phone. Doing this electronically strikes me as immature.
The manager is almost always better off by letting the departing employee off immediately to hedge risk. You pay him for the two weeks, and let him sit at home.
What I find most puzzling is why announce the resignation via email? This is almost always best done face to face, or at least via phone. Doing this electronically strikes me as immature.
"The employee may even decide to save some of his more valuable work to use in the next gig."
If someone's resigned rather than been fired or made redundant, they'll already have had plenty of time to do that, won't they?
"What I find most puzzling is why announce the resignation via email? This is almost always best done face to face, or at least via phone. Doing this electronically strikes me as immature."
I agree that handing in your resignation is best done in person, maybe it's an age thing.
If someone's resigned rather than been fired or made redundant, they'll already have had plenty of time to do that, won't they?
"What I find most puzzling is why announce the resignation via email? This is almost always best done face to face, or at least via phone. Doing this electronically strikes me as immature."
I agree that handing in your resignation is best done in person, maybe it's an age thing.
The last company I left I worked for over two months after handing in notice, bringing new employees up to speed on the code base I'd created, etc. I also kept notice of my leaving secret from many of my co-workers at my boss's request.
This was Ireland, though.
This was Ireland, though.
In my experience, companies let you live out the two weeks unless you've done something "objectionable", in which case you are taken out immediately.
correct.
But you can do that without sounding like a jerkass.
e.g. instead of 'never return, do not attempt to contact us', you could say 'We're sorry to see you go. Monday will be your last day, come in to pick up your belongings and say goodbye and we'll all go out for lunch.'
Just because other companies do it doesn't mean you have to act like a jerk when you do it too.
e.g. instead of 'never return, do not attempt to contact us', you could say 'We're sorry to see you go. Monday will be your last day, come in to pick up your belongings and say goodbye and we'll all go out for lunch.'
Just because other companies do it doesn't mean you have to act like a jerk when you do it too.
Planning on everyone else being a dick means you end up treating everyone like a dick. It might save you from the few people are _are_ dicks, but in the end you're just fucking yourself. With dicks.
This was posted on Evan Culver's blog and made it to the front page of hn the day after it happened. It was deleted off of HN shortly after being posted.
It was originally on http://evanculver.posterous.com/ but he appears to have since removed it.
Edit: Adding original link bit.
It was originally on http://evanculver.posterous.com/ but he appears to have since removed it.
Edit: Adding original link bit.
Takeaway: if it's email, it's on a server somewhere; if it's on a server somewhere, it's best to assume it'll be public record someday. If it's an outburst, maybe you should do it by phone.
No matter how many times people are reminded of this, they will continue to make the same mistake.
And it will continue to be amusing gossip for the rest of us :)
And it will continue to be amusing gossip for the rest of us :)
Someone a few days ago on here in another thread mentioned that the 'e' in email stands for evidence, I should probably tape that to my monitor.
This wasn't meant to be public, but then, lots of things that aren't meant to be public should be to deter people from being total jerks. I think this falls in this category.
And I say this as someone who used to quite enjoy Calacanis's podcasts a few years ago.
And I say this as someone who used to quite enjoy Calacanis's podcasts a few years ago.
Actually just not wanting to be a jerk should deter one from being a jerk, public or not.
If jerks thought like that, they wouldn't be jerks...
This email exchange is the equivalent of breaking up with your girlfriend over a text message and letting her know that you will now start dating her roommate. Obviously, there is no right way of letting someone know that they are no longer what you desire, but sending an email at 10 o'clock at night is hardly the right approach. How about "Hey Jason, I have some rather bad news that I need to share with you, are you free for a cup of coffee right now; it's an urgent matter." At least have the decency to say it to you his face.
I'm an undergraduate student at University of Texas with entrepreneurial ambitions who met Jason personally at SxSW for the first time. I am pretty much a nobody and yet he treated me with utmost respect and was a pleasure to talk to. Personal relationships are a delicate matter. You can't use a computer to solve all your issues.
I'm an undergraduate student at University of Texas with entrepreneurial ambitions who met Jason personally at SxSW for the first time. I am pretty much a nobody and yet he treated me with utmost respect and was a pleasure to talk to. Personal relationships are a delicate matter. You can't use a computer to solve all your issues.
are you from penang? ping me if so
I feel like if we knew who he quit to go work for, we'd have a better idea of why Mr. Calacanis was so upset. Must have been a powerful direct competitor - I hope..
We do know: Yahoo
@evanculver Good luck at Yahoo, dude. It's not as dead as some say, as is evidenced by the excellent code they churn out. -- http://twitter.com/codeshaman/status/12584315658
@codeshaman Thank you sir. I was going to delay the announcement, but you know, people do things that make you jumpy. -- http://twitter.com/evanculver/status/12585519584
@evanculver Good luck at Yahoo, dude. It's not as dead as some say, as is evidenced by the excellent code they churn out. -- http://twitter.com/codeshaman/status/12584315658
@codeshaman Thank you sir. I was going to delay the announcement, but you know, people do things that make you jumpy. -- http://twitter.com/evanculver/status/12585519584
That makes me wonder, has Yahoo laid off more or less employees (proportionally) than Mahalo?
No need to wonder, considerably more, but they've also hired considerably more.
Of course they've hired considerably more, I think that's why the parent to your comment said "(proportionally)".
I could have sworn that wasn't there when I first answered.
/me needs glasses ?
/me needs glasses ?
It's an eisenclarification!
It was there. :)
It was there. :)
I believe you. But I've fallen in to the habit of quoting the bits I'm replying to just to make sure I'm not hallucinating, after the fact edits which make your comments look like you're an idiot happen all too often.
Literal quoting seems to be a good protection against that.
Literal quoting seems to be a good protection against that.
Yahoo is not only dead, it is a large, rotting carcass on the landscape of the web. To imply otherwise suggests a lack of critical thinking.
What does he always say? 'Peace and love'?
It's a really insightful and petulant reaction to what I thought was a perfectly nice resignation note from the Evan guy.
It's a really insightful and petulant reaction to what I thought was a perfectly nice resignation note from the Evan guy.
Jason shall not bother about employees. His money-making Spam-machine is already doing magics. And will probably continue to run even if all workers leave.
Link is dead. It says it will be back in a few minutes but hasn't been back for more than an hour. Anyone have a mirror?
google cache
[deleted]
http://twitter.com/evanculver/status/12440647847
There's no way I'm doing more work tonight. I'm done. Have to quit kidding myself.
11:12 AM Apr 19th
A day before he sent the resignation email.
There's no way I'm doing more work tonight. I'm done. Have to quit kidding myself.
11:12 AM Apr 19th
A day before he sent the resignation email.
Funny how he is preaching one thing but does another...
Classy.
if he joins a competitor, he should be removed asap. it's bad for morale and company ip.
who cares about jason cala... whatever the fuck his name is.
who cares about jason cala... whatever the fuck his name is.
If the point of the story is sometimes people say moderately unpleasant things I would fully agree. Some people choose to self-censor, some don't. Personal choice really.
We just don't know. But what we do know is that this is exactly the kind of half-story that gets people going on forums: an antagonist everyone loves to hate, and structural reasons why we're probably not getting the whole story.
Many, many times I've seen users on a forum go on the warpath after hearing half of a story, then look like fools when the second half emerges. I don't like to think how many times I've been fooled myself, between Reddit and HN.
It would be nice if Internet culture could evolve to reserve judgment when a story like this appeared, in the same way it has evolved not to trust any story that appears in a much-forwarded email. I would be proud if HN was the place that mutation began.