Ask HN: Ethics and the "hacking system" Q from YC application
6 comments
Beating the system doesn't require dishonesty -- it just requires approaching the problem in a way the system did not anticipate.
For example, we all know what "the system" looks like for getting hired, right? Send in your resume, which looks like every other resume. We'll have an HR drone read it. You may be called back for an interview. Don't call us, we'll call you.
One way to hack this system is to create a website designed to interact with, specifically, the decisionmaker in charge of hiring you. Maybe you pull in Google Analytics, an A/B test, sixteen different web services/Twitter integrations/whatever, and then after a few minutes hit him with a AJAX popup asking for what time is best for you to call him about hiring you. On the call, you demonstrate uncanny attention to what he needs by the simple expedient of talking about the topics he evidenced the most interest in by interacting with on your resume. (He read seven blog posts and didn't touch your educational achievements once? That tells you something.)
That isn't dishonest in the slightest: you're using your professional skills to effectively demonstrate that you and the company would be a mutually beneficial pairing. You're just presenting yourself in a more engaging, effective, forceful way than the overdone resume format would present you in.
For example, we all know what "the system" looks like for getting hired, right? Send in your resume, which looks like every other resume. We'll have an HR drone read it. You may be called back for an interview. Don't call us, we'll call you.
One way to hack this system is to create a website designed to interact with, specifically, the decisionmaker in charge of hiring you. Maybe you pull in Google Analytics, an A/B test, sixteen different web services/Twitter integrations/whatever, and then after a few minutes hit him with a AJAX popup asking for what time is best for you to call him about hiring you. On the call, you demonstrate uncanny attention to what he needs by the simple expedient of talking about the topics he evidenced the most interest in by interacting with on your resume. (He read seven blog posts and didn't touch your educational achievements once? That tells you something.)
That isn't dishonest in the slightest: you're using your professional skills to effectively demonstrate that you and the company would be a mutually beneficial pairing. You're just presenting yourself in a more engaging, effective, forceful way than the overdone resume format would present you in.
As another example, a friend of mine got an interview with Bear Stearns (back when there was a Bear Stearns). While he was in New York he called up the other investment banks in the area and told them "hey, I'm in town to interview with Bear, could I stop by to interview with you guys too?". Many of them said yes, including the bank he really wanted to work for. The interview with Bear gave him the social proof he needed to get his foot in the door. Had he sent in his resume to the other banks' websites, it would have disappeared into the HR black hole.
I gotcha, good example. Did you try this at some point, or did you make it up?
The last time I was applying for a job I had insufficient web development skills to pull this off and I rather doubt I will ever have need to apply for a job again, so no, I have never actually delivered a resume in this format. (Though if I were hypothetically doing an application to YC or otherwise trying to influence a decisionmaker to give me money, I'd have a website purpose-built for it.)
Let's see, previous job application hacks I have actually done: when I was 16 I applied for a summer job at a large American company which sells office supplies, as a seasonal order entry operator. They sort of value obsessive-compulsive attention to detail in that position (difference between 10 reams of paper and 10 cartons of paper: rather substantial!). I am not normally a very detail-oriented person but I have a fairly decent memory, so I called them up, asked them to mail me a catalog, and then memorized a few bits of trivia about prominent product lines and all their policies about shipping.
During the interview, the person speaking to me mentioned "drop shipment", and then proceeded to explain what drop shipment actually is. I cut her off and said that "Drop shipment is when you order from $COMPANY but the order actually ships directly from the vendor." She asked if I had previous experience in the industry. I said "No, but it is written in your catalog. You see, customers should know whether they are ordering drop shipped products or not, because while drop shipped products are covered by the same 'free shipping for orders above $THRESHHOLD' policy as products shipping from the warehouse, they are not actually carried by the same shipping lines, and appropriately the customer needs to make arrangements to move the item from the door. However, for an extra charge of $35, the truck driver will take it to anywhere accessible via an elevator."
She looked at me dumbfounded for a moment.
"I made it my business to know your business."
That line was pure luck, incidentally -- I had to come up with it on the spot because I did not have a half-dozen prepared, tested, memorable quotes ready to slot in at any opportune time in the interview. I have learned the value of those in the last decade, though.
Let's see, previous job application hacks I have actually done: when I was 16 I applied for a summer job at a large American company which sells office supplies, as a seasonal order entry operator. They sort of value obsessive-compulsive attention to detail in that position (difference between 10 reams of paper and 10 cartons of paper: rather substantial!). I am not normally a very detail-oriented person but I have a fairly decent memory, so I called them up, asked them to mail me a catalog, and then memorized a few bits of trivia about prominent product lines and all their policies about shipping.
During the interview, the person speaking to me mentioned "drop shipment", and then proceeded to explain what drop shipment actually is. I cut her off and said that "Drop shipment is when you order from $COMPANY but the order actually ships directly from the vendor." She asked if I had previous experience in the industry. I said "No, but it is written in your catalog. You see, customers should know whether they are ordering drop shipped products or not, because while drop shipped products are covered by the same 'free shipping for orders above $THRESHHOLD' policy as products shipping from the warehouse, they are not actually carried by the same shipping lines, and appropriately the customer needs to make arrangements to move the item from the door. However, for an extra charge of $35, the truck driver will take it to anywhere accessible via an elevator."
She looked at me dumbfounded for a moment.
"I made it my business to know your business."
That line was pure luck, incidentally -- I had to come up with it on the spot because I did not have a half-dozen prepared, tested, memorable quotes ready to slot in at any opportune time in the interview. I have learned the value of those in the last decade, though.
Great story, one thing though. You were impressive in your interview/performance, but I'm kind of failing to see how you "hacked" the system.
You were smart by being prepared and researched the company's product offering. This is kind of standard practice, to know what the company you're applying to sells/builds. So in this particular example, can you show you hacked the system? Is being more prepared than the average applicant good enough to show this?
You were smart by being prepared and researched the company's product offering. This is kind of standard practice, to know what the company you're applying to sells/builds. So in this particular example, can you show you hacked the system? Is being more prepared than the average applicant good enough to show this?
On one hand, PG wants people who beat the system. On the other hand, someone told me PG is high on ethics. These seem to contradict one another.
They don't when the system is evil.
They don't when the system is evil.
One of my examples: I was working on a political campaign for federal office. The party had promised our candidate significant financial backing, it didn't come through they just wanted a candidate in the race. We realized that we were never going to be able to compete financially against an incumbent candidate with a war chest of special interest money.
The hack I came up with was that we would announce that we weren't going to accept and money from lobbyists, PACs, or anyone outside the state. Not that we were going to get much anyways ;)
We still got stomped. But it was great ammunition in our message toolbox and we used it all of the time.
Thats what I call message hacking.
The hack I came up with was that we would announce that we weren't going to accept and money from lobbyists, PACs, or anyone outside the state. Not that we were going to get much anyways ;)
We still got stomped. But it was great ammunition in our message toolbox and we used it all of the time.
Thats what I call message hacking.
Evil is relative. Thats a whole other discussion about culture, moral imperatives, etc.
One way to "hack the system" is to do what you said - employ some type of deception or misdirection in order to gain something you shouldn't.
Another way is to re-purpose something to do what it wasn't designed to do. For example, any contraption that would be called a "Rube Goldberg Machine" would qualify as (non-computer) hacking. MAKE Magazine is full of hacks of this nature as well. The Burning Man Festival is a great place to see things hacked together.
Another way might be to fix a perceived flaw through unorthodox means. For example, I put new pickups in my guitar, and they were too hot (too loud, bad distortion). Instead of replacing them (they sounded awesome at lower volumes), I routed the pickup holes to be slightly deeper, then wired in a bypass switch, letting me choose to have a normal tone or naturally overdriven (good distortion) tone. Drummers who put tape over part of a drum skin are hacking their system. Guitarists with old Stratocasters often file their nuts and lower the bridge for better tone.
So I respectfully disagree - one can definitely be a (non-computer) hacker and be ethical at the same time.
Another way is to re-purpose something to do what it wasn't designed to do. For example, any contraption that would be called a "Rube Goldberg Machine" would qualify as (non-computer) hacking. MAKE Magazine is full of hacks of this nature as well. The Burning Man Festival is a great place to see things hacked together.
Another way might be to fix a perceived flaw through unorthodox means. For example, I put new pickups in my guitar, and they were too hot (too loud, bad distortion). Instead of replacing them (they sounded awesome at lower volumes), I routed the pickup holes to be slightly deeper, then wired in a bypass switch, letting me choose to have a normal tone or naturally overdriven (good distortion) tone. Drummers who put tape over part of a drum skin are hacking their system. Guitarists with old Stratocasters often file their nuts and lower the bridge for better tone.
So I respectfully disagree - one can definitely be a (non-computer) hacker and be ethical at the same time.
Great points, I understand your idea about hacking a system.
But PG alludes to "obedience" in his comment and "middle of the road" people, leading me to believe he wants to see some sort of gain over the system. A rube goldberg machine doesn't really fit that profile. Fixing your guitar up doesn't really beat the system. Sure you hacked it up and saved money, but did it really show how clever you are? (Not that I'm saying you aren't)
But PG alludes to "obedience" in his comment and "middle of the road" people, leading me to believe he wants to see some sort of gain over the system. A rube goldberg machine doesn't really fit that profile. Fixing your guitar up doesn't really beat the system. Sure you hacked it up and saved money, but did it really show how clever you are? (Not that I'm saying you aren't)
I consider what I did to my guitar beating the system ;) But then, I'm a guitarist so that's in my domain. It would have been cheaper to just get middle-of-the-road pickups instead - less money, less gain (in a signal-strength sense).
Having said that, I understand your point. My examples were not necessarily about beating a system, but changing how that system relates to myself (or whomever). And I did get to type the phrase "file their nuts" with a straight face.
Inconveniently, I am having trouble coming up with relevant examples of ethical, non-computer hacking resulting in some sort of net gain unrelated to a select niche of people (like guitarists). I'll have to get back to you on that one...
Having said that, I understand your point. My examples were not necessarily about beating a system, but changing how that system relates to myself (or whomever). And I did get to type the phrase "file their nuts" with a straight face.
Inconveniently, I am having trouble coming up with relevant examples of ethical, non-computer hacking resulting in some sort of net gain unrelated to a select niche of people (like guitarists). I'll have to get back to you on that one...
anitgram(1)
On one hand, PG wants people who beat the system. On the other hand, someone told me PG is high on ethics.
I think this question serves two purposes: First, to see how creative people have been in hacking systems; and second, to see how people interpret the question.
I think this question serves two purposes: First, to see how creative people have been in hacking systems; and second, to see how people interpret the question.
"Naturally, beating the system requires some form of deception (some degrees of lieing, cheating, dishonesty)"
I think that's a flawed premise. Remove the assumption (as others have done) that "beating the system" means any of those things, and the argument fails.
I think that's a flawed premise. Remove the assumption (as others have done) that "beating the system" means any of those things, and the argument fails.
I think your examples are pretty 'light', and not in any way detrimental, but I could be wrong.
To me it is as simple as 'whitehat/blackhat' hacking.
And what you did when you were a kid should be taken with a grain of salt, there is a reason we keep childrens criminal records sealed.
To me it is as simple as 'whitehat/blackhat' hacking.
And what you did when you were a kid should be taken with a grain of salt, there is a reason we keep childrens criminal records sealed.
PG writes: If this wasn't already clear, we're not looking for the sort of obedient, middle-of-the-road people that big companies tend to hire. We're looking for people who like to beat the system.
Naturally, beating the system requires some form of deception (some degrees of lieing, cheating, dishonesty). The "system" was setup in a way to obviously prevent that, which is why it exists in the first place. I know it doesn't necessarily make you an unethical or a bad person if you beat a system. But someone reviewing my previous application made a good point that PG puts a lot of value in the "Don't be evil" mantra, and said that our hack the system examples were shady. So I thought about trying to balance the amount of shadiness with the amount of beating the system-ness. (To be clear, one answer was getting around a library system to fake returning a lost library book in the 6th grade. Another was bait and switch trade technique to get items in Diablo 2. Not super evil stuff, we were kids and had to be creative.)
Now I don't want this to be a discussion about what I wrote, I just wanted to provide context for my question. On one hand, PG wants people who beat the system. On the other hand, someone told me PG is high on ethics. These seem to contradict one another. Which side is more powerful and more important in making an impression? Thanks