Review: Japanese Hologram Pop Star Hatsune Miku Tours North America(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Review: Japanese Hologram Pop Star Hatsune Miku Tours North America
http://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2016/04/waving-glow-sticks-at-hologram-anime-pop-stars-our-night-with-hatsune-miku/
12 comments
It's a little disappointing they didn't bring up the fact that Hatsune Miku's songs are created by the fans. Anyone who wants to make a song just buys the software makes a song and posts it to Youtube or NicoNicoDouga and if it takes off it becomes part of her hit list
When I saw the headline, I thought to myself "the most amazing thing about her is that she is still around" I think this explains it a lot.
That is really cool.
That is really cool.
The absence of Idoru[1] references is surprising. Almost as surprising as learning that book is 20 years old. I may need to re-read it.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idoru
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idoru
I was just about to write that. Was there anything like take existing at that time or did he project the trends and adding a good dose of Japanese pop culture weirdness, completely on his own?
Only in anime like Megazone 23 and Macross Plus. In fact, Miku may be so appealing simply because she represents the merger of the real world with the anime world that otaku have long yearned for.
Gibson copied the idea from Japanese media. Macross Plus' Sharon Apple, a holographic pop idol, existed for years before Idoru.
Idoru is also the first thing I thought of when I read the headline. It was written 20 years ago. Gibson has a proven record of being eerily prescient.
Instant hot coffee in a can was one of my favourite little ideas he put forward.
Yes. I actually came to think about that just recently. The whole scene popped into my mind when making coffee in the morning. It made me feel a bit dizzy actually, and it made me think of what other things that are looking more and more probable.
Anonymous-type groups posing in 3d avatars comes to mind.
I remembered that at the time,I found it implausible that it was possible to go online in Neuromancer without connecting to a fiber or something and that it was just handwaved away. He was right and I was wrong, it was not important.
Anonymous-type groups posing in 3d avatars comes to mind.
I remembered that at the time,I found it implausible that it was possible to go online in Neuromancer without connecting to a fiber or something and that it was just handwaved away. He was right and I was wrong, it was not important.
AFAIK Gibson's just really good at assessing culture and predicting its course.
For anyone that likes Gibson; I hope you caught this earlier (2015) story too:
"I mine for 100-year-old jeans" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10284638
"I mine for 100-year-old jeans" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10284638
I can never tell if the ticketing websites always report that tickets are almost sold-out. Regardless, that strategy just worked on me.
So today I will see John Kasich speak in San Jose and then I attend a J-Pop vocaloid concert in the evening. A most weird day even by SF Bay standards.
So today I will see John Kasich speak in San Jose and then I attend a J-Pop vocaloid concert in the evening. A most weird day even by SF Bay standards.
Hatsune Miku was one of the opening acts for Lady Gaga on her 2014 artRave arena tour.
I attended Gaga's Washington DC show, had never heard of Hatsune Miku, and had no idea what was going on. Hatsune had live, human back-up dancers. By the end of the set I realized this could be the future of music - when I got home I devoured every piece of information on vocaloids I could find.
Lady Gaga talking about Hatsune: https://youtu.be/7QV63XHoenU
I attended Gaga's Washington DC show, had never heard of Hatsune Miku, and had no idea what was going on. Hatsune had live, human back-up dancers. By the end of the set I realized this could be the future of music - when I got home I devoured every piece of information on vocaloids I could find.
Lady Gaga talking about Hatsune: https://youtu.be/7QV63XHoenU
Here we have large groups of people in the US paying to attend concerts given by a virtual pop star created and controlled by Japanese businessmen.
Reality truly is as strange as fiction!
Reality truly is as strange as fiction!
Please see the discussion in the comments on Ars. If it wasn't sarcasm, what you said is simply misinformation.
Could you clarify, please?
The vast majority of popular Vocaloid music is created by the fans themselves, not "Japanese businessmen." In fact, the kneejerk reaction is completely backwards: regular human idols and pop stars are the fake, focus tested machinations of businessmen. Vocaloids are a pure representation of the feelings of regular people. The pop song on the radio was designed and marketed to appeal to a certain audience by people that probably hate what they're creating, acted out by a human puppet. The equivalent Vocaloid song was made by someone that really wanted to write a song about love or loneliness or saccharine positivity or whatever. Ordinary (but talented) people living their dreams through a collective consciousness.
From my perspective, it seems strange that anyone enjoyed the "real" thing in the first place.
From my perspective, it seems strange that anyone enjoyed the "real" thing in the first place.
Bull. These things are not created by a single person.
For a more western example Toy Story 3 might have been a moving story, but it's no single persons vision given form. Instead it's the passion from many distilled into it's most marketable form.
For a more western example Toy Story 3 might have been a moving story, but it's no single persons vision given form. Instead it's the passion from many distilled into it's most marketable form.
Are you claiming the songs are not made by individual persons? I know such song writers personally. It's not that big of a deal to create a song an put it on Youtube.
I don't really get why you are comparing it to Toy Story.
I don't really get why you are comparing it to Toy Story.
The song is just a small part. With human pop stars and Animation you at least get a human's take on some music. But, here the voice is synthesized from several people and effects, the motion are all re-rendered and refined based on feedback from multiple people etc etc.
Yes, it's voice sounds interesting, but it completely lacks emotion. So, the show ends up even more fake than Animation which still relies on traditional voice actors.
Yes, it's voice sounds interesting, but it completely lacks emotion. So, the show ends up even more fake than Animation which still relies on traditional voice actors.
I think you are misunderstanding something. And also assuming a lot more is going on than it actually is.
First of all, the songs are the main part. All of the rest is just secondary. You can not talk about anything related to Vocaloids without talking about the voice synthesis software, the voice banks and the songs using them.
Secondly, most animations that may or may not accompany songs are little more than slide shows with moving elements on the screen. Many songs don't even have that. Many only have a picture.
Thirdly, out of the songs that become very popular, some get fan made choreographies. In this process, motion capture using a Kinekt helps a lot, but you need to do fine tuning for a smooth result.
Each of these steps is within the realm of what a single very dedicated person can do.
Also, there is no such thing "the voice is synthesized from several people and effects" . Each voice bank has a single donor. And you can purchase the Vocaloid software and voice banks and use them without restrictions.
Sure, if you want to make a concert and charge for tickets, you might do the choreography part more professionally and use fancy projection technology, so people actually have a reason to pay for those tickets. Otherwise people can just compile a concert themselves and project it in their homes. I did just that for my family to explain the phenomenon to them.
As for your last paragraph, I don't think I can convince you something fictional is not "fake". You shouldn't expect animation to look real because that is not the point of animation. As for lacking emotion, I bet you have not heard songs that try to do just that instead of being gimmicky. Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BFvN-idN1s This was made by just two people. One did the music and lyrics, the other the illustration and video.
First of all, the songs are the main part. All of the rest is just secondary. You can not talk about anything related to Vocaloids without talking about the voice synthesis software, the voice banks and the songs using them.
Secondly, most animations that may or may not accompany songs are little more than slide shows with moving elements on the screen. Many songs don't even have that. Many only have a picture.
Thirdly, out of the songs that become very popular, some get fan made choreographies. In this process, motion capture using a Kinekt helps a lot, but you need to do fine tuning for a smooth result.
Each of these steps is within the realm of what a single very dedicated person can do.
Also, there is no such thing "the voice is synthesized from several people and effects" . Each voice bank has a single donor. And you can purchase the Vocaloid software and voice banks and use them without restrictions.
Sure, if you want to make a concert and charge for tickets, you might do the choreography part more professionally and use fancy projection technology, so people actually have a reason to pay for those tickets. Otherwise people can just compile a concert themselves and project it in their homes. I did just that for my family to explain the phenomenon to them.
As for your last paragraph, I don't think I can convince you something fictional is not "fake". You shouldn't expect animation to look real because that is not the point of animation. As for lacking emotion, I bet you have not heard songs that try to do just that instead of being gimmicky. Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BFvN-idN1s This was made by just two people. One did the music and lyrics, the other the illustration and video.
I am not going to comment on the animation, or song in your link. Just the 'voice' which has zero emotional range.
There is an intresting recent study that used really short clips of people laughing and asked: "Are they friends?" This is just laughter and it was played for people around the globe. People did better than random. Not 100% by any means but well past random change for a few seconds of laughter.
Now, extend this emotional void to a full song and it get's down right creepy.
There is an intresting recent study that used really short clips of people laughing and asked: "Are they friends?" This is just laughter and it was played for people around the globe. People did better than random. Not 100% by any means but well past random change for a few seconds of laughter.
Now, extend this emotional void to a full song and it get's down right creepy.
I understand what you are saying. I guess not all of are are affected by this. I guess at this point it's subjective. I understand why you might feel it's creepy.
As for the study, I believe you are referring to this: http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/friends-or-not-laughter-re... I have not read the article but I listened to the sound clips. They are definitely different. But I do not associate either with friends or strangers. If it were just these 2 clips I would probably identify them correctly because one is more involved and energetic and I know there is one of each kind. But I would probably find it more difficult to identify the type of each clip from a set without any extra knowledge.
As for the study, I believe you are referring to this: http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/friends-or-not-laughter-re... I have not read the article but I listened to the sound clips. They are definitely different. But I do not associate either with friends or strangers. If it were just these 2 clips I would probably identify them correctly because one is more involved and energetic and I know there is one of each kind. But I would probably find it more difficult to identify the type of each clip from a set without any extra knowledge.
> Yes, it's voice sounds interesting, but it completely lacks emotion.
That is a highly subjective judgement call, and i think i even know why it appears like that to you. Different languages express emotions differently, and particularly japanese appears "flat" to english people, to the point that english learners of japanese are taught to speak japanese like a robot to sound somewhat accurate.
Luckily there are some people making english songs with vocaloids as well. Have a listen to those and see if you get more out of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQKGUgOfD8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Skij_GE9n4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmifuQvFu8M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfQShttQTd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1xicOvYd3Q
That is a highly subjective judgement call, and i think i even know why it appears like that to you. Different languages express emotions differently, and particularly japanese appears "flat" to english people, to the point that english learners of japanese are taught to speak japanese like a robot to sound somewhat accurate.
Luckily there are some people making english songs with vocaloids as well. Have a listen to those and see if you get more out of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQKGUgOfD8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Skij_GE9n4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmifuQvFu8M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfQShttQTd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1xicOvYd3Q
That was far worse, IMO. The last song should be highly emotional, but the stresses where in completely the wrong places.
The closet thing I could think of was how being readers can say words without understanding their meaning. The stresses follow the difficulty they are having not the content of a story. If you hear them speaking you can follow their emotional responses, or hear the words, but doing both set's up dissonance. Listen to 0:40 to 1:00 here and I think you can get what I mean. https://www.teachingchannel.org/videos/guided-reading-introd...
PS: While I don't think this is any more subjective than body language, the negative reaction might go away if I listened to a lot of this stuff. A speak and spell quickly goes from odd to just that's how it sounds.
The closet thing I could think of was how being readers can say words without understanding their meaning. The stresses follow the difficulty they are having not the content of a story. If you hear them speaking you can follow their emotional responses, or hear the words, but doing both set's up dissonance. Listen to 0:40 to 1:00 here and I think you can get what I mean. https://www.teachingchannel.org/videos/guided-reading-introd...
PS: While I don't think this is any more subjective than body language, the negative reaction might go away if I listened to a lot of this stuff. A speak and spell quickly goes from odd to just that's how it sounds.
Here's the fun thing: You picked up a crucial part of Luka perfectly. She's a japanese vocaloid. Due to the way vocaloids are made each one has to be specialized for a certain language, with japanese ones often being able to be good with 100-200 samples, and english ones easily going to 1000+ samples.
Making an english song with english vocaloids is tricky to begin with due to the differences in language favoring japanese heavily for synthesis. Making an english song with a native japanese vocaloid is even harder, and the result is what you hear in "Lie". (You can also contrast this with "Last of Me", which was made with a recent upgrade on Luka, V4X, who can speak english and works out better; and of course the three Gumi songs, since Gumi is a natively english vocaloid who does quite well.)
In short: Yeah, you did accurately identify a foreigner speaking english slightly awkwardly.
As for the getting used to, yes, you get used to it, however that's not because you get used to vocaloids themselves, but because you get used to japanese songs, which feature vowel frequencies, vowel distribution patterns and rhythms in expression that are flat out alien to english speakers. This works out as "exotic and interesting" to some and "weird and off" to others. To give a more clear example, try and see if this song, which to to speakers of languages with similarity to latin vowels (germanic, slavic, chinese, japanese) sounds flat out beautiful, but is mostly "meh" to americans i found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCDoifoKkLA (Also, as for rhythm, it would probably sound even more weird for you if you knew the words, since many of her emphasises go on the japanese equivalents for "of", "too", "from", "?" and "!".
Making an english song with english vocaloids is tricky to begin with due to the differences in language favoring japanese heavily for synthesis. Making an english song with a native japanese vocaloid is even harder, and the result is what you hear in "Lie". (You can also contrast this with "Last of Me", which was made with a recent upgrade on Luka, V4X, who can speak english and works out better; and of course the three Gumi songs, since Gumi is a natively english vocaloid who does quite well.)
In short: Yeah, you did accurately identify a foreigner speaking english slightly awkwardly.
As for the getting used to, yes, you get used to it, however that's not because you get used to vocaloids themselves, but because you get used to japanese songs, which feature vowel frequencies, vowel distribution patterns and rhythms in expression that are flat out alien to english speakers. This works out as "exotic and interesting" to some and "weird and off" to others. To give a more clear example, try and see if this song, which to to speakers of languages with similarity to latin vowels (germanic, slavic, chinese, japanese) sounds flat out beautiful, but is mostly "meh" to americans i found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCDoifoKkLA (Also, as for rhythm, it would probably sound even more weird for you if you knew the words, since many of her emphasises go on the japanese equivalents for "of", "too", "from", "?" and "!".
Is the guy playing acoustic guitar on the street for tips not the sole creator of his work because some number of people were involved with manufacture of his guitar?
Most Vocaloid songs become popular in part because of videos that were animated by a single (usually different) person.
As for their voices lacking emotion, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Most Vocaloid songs become popular in part because of videos that were animated by a single (usually different) person.
As for their voices lacking emotion, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Imagine once VR/AR become mainstream. You'd have real artists having simul-cencerts in ten stadiums (or in homes for the homebodies) competing against anime performers who don't get exhausted or get sick or who want to retire... So the farce of the "artist" can be all done with --just corporate manufactured music entertainment.
You make it sound like it's something other than utopian paradise. I will never interact with any of the artists I listen to so whether or not they are "real" makes no difference to me. Especially since a lot of artists have stage personas who aren't "real" either so it comes down to whether the part is played by a human actor or an animated one.
True but now it won't be an artist but personaes put together collectively using metrics and other marketing inputs. There will be no ruse. It'll be obvious and in son ways it's better than pretense.
And, as long as people get value out of that, I'm okay.
And, as long as people get value out of that, I'm okay.
Might work for some manufactured pop stars and the like, but I can't see that being a big thing. I can't start a mosh pit in my living room, and pulling out my lighter for that ballad just isn't going to have the same feeling. I can't go see a band like Jucifer[0] play music so loud that I can feel the music with every fiber of my being.
You're forgetting one very real thing, music is more than just an aural and visual experience. There's a very good reason people shell out hundreds on tickets, drive 6 hours, wait in line for another 3, buy $8 beers, and fight a crowd of sweaty, amped up folks to get to the very front.
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jucifer
You're forgetting one very real thing, music is more than just an aural and visual experience. There's a very good reason people shell out hundreds on tickets, drive 6 hours, wait in line for another 3, buy $8 beers, and fight a crowd of sweaty, amped up folks to get to the very front.
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jucifer
All of those things can be provided by a virtual band - that's pretty much the point of the article. You can still have concerts where you interact with other flesh and blood fans.
I simply don't understand why anyone would pay to go to that. I'd rather feed pigeons in the park, or pay strangers in the street to do their best version of a Taylor Swift song.
It's TODAY in SF, there are still tickets available if you act fast.
I'm totally surprised. I had the chance to go in Tokyo but only because my friend could find in re-sale bid at 5x the original price. They got sold out here so fast.
More info: At the Warfield, 1:30 and 8pm. Tickets are $50-150.
I've been waiting a long time to be able to see this show live. Since last December I bought tickets to see Hatsune Miku "live" this June in Mexico City.
I am guessing you don't need 3d glasses to see the hologram. If so, I am all for it. They need to replace those very annoying glasses in 3d movies.
It's not a 3D image.
From the article: "massive, see-through projection screen"
Nonetheless, the projection technology behind this is interesting.
Nonetheless, the projection technology behind this is interesting.
I think it's the same type of tech used for the Tupac hologram that was touring a few years back. I believe it all works on the same kind of principle as the Pepper's Ghost illusion.
I can't help but thinking about singularity.. but regardless, I believe if done right this form of art can touch the most conservative and cynical.
I'm far from the most conservative and cynical, and this form of art lowers my opinion of people in general.
[deleted]
There are already plenty of comments on Ars discussing the various inaccuracies of the article.
I'm not sure pointing them out here would be useful.
For starters, cs702's comment here ( https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=11602173&goto=item%3Fi... ) is plain wrong.
I'm not sure pointing them out here would be useful.
For starters, cs702's comment here ( https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=11602173&goto=item%3Fi... ) is plain wrong.
Skimming through the top bunch of comments doesn't reveal much... is his comment "plain wrong" as in it isn't a large group of people? Or they aren't in the US? Or they aren't paying? Or it isn't a virtual pop star? Or it wasn't created by Japanese businessmen? Or reality isn't as strange as fiction?
https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=11602544&goto=item%3Fi... summed things pretty well.
It is wrong in the assumptions it makes. For your questions in particular.
- Yes, this was a concert (with paid tickets), in the US, attended by a large group of people.
- Yes and no, Miku is often called a Virtual pop star but that is a misnomer if by virtual pop star you mean anything else than just a fictional character who is a popular singer. It is just like saying Harry Potter is a wizard.
- It depends on your meaning of create. Miku was indeed created by Crypton. But what they created is nothing more than a voicebank for the vocal synthesis software Vocaloid, given it a name and commissioned someone to create the box art for the product. Everything else about Miku (her personality, likes, dislikes, hobbies, friendships, rivalries, clothes, the songs she sings, etc.) was made by fans. Miku is by no means controlled by anyone. Crypton, who have the original trademark for the character have given everyone the right to create what they want with the character. Through the fan art you make (songs, animations, fan fics, etc.) you have as much control on Miku as anyone else. There is no canon version of the Vocaloids.
Vocaloid is the vocal synthesis software created by Yamaha. The software uses voice banks usually provided by third parties. Each voice bank usually has a character associated. These characters are collectively called the Vocaloids. Hatsune Miku is one of the characters for one of the voice banks. It has nothing to do with all the visuals. Fans just created 3D animation software for crating animations with the characters. These animations were eventually used to create the concerts. Crypton, being the original trademark holder started providing these concerts to fans who requested them using fan made songs, fan made costumes and fan made choreographies.
- I leave the last question about the strangeness of reality to you.
It is wrong in the assumptions it makes. For your questions in particular.
- Yes, this was a concert (with paid tickets), in the US, attended by a large group of people.
- Yes and no, Miku is often called a Virtual pop star but that is a misnomer if by virtual pop star you mean anything else than just a fictional character who is a popular singer. It is just like saying Harry Potter is a wizard.
- It depends on your meaning of create. Miku was indeed created by Crypton. But what they created is nothing more than a voicebank for the vocal synthesis software Vocaloid, given it a name and commissioned someone to create the box art for the product. Everything else about Miku (her personality, likes, dislikes, hobbies, friendships, rivalries, clothes, the songs she sings, etc.) was made by fans. Miku is by no means controlled by anyone. Crypton, who have the original trademark for the character have given everyone the right to create what they want with the character. Through the fan art you make (songs, animations, fan fics, etc.) you have as much control on Miku as anyone else. There is no canon version of the Vocaloids.
Vocaloid is the vocal synthesis software created by Yamaha. The software uses voice banks usually provided by third parties. Each voice bank usually has a character associated. These characters are collectively called the Vocaloids. Hatsune Miku is one of the characters for one of the voice banks. It has nothing to do with all the visuals. Fans just created 3D animation software for crating animations with the characters. These animations were eventually used to create the concerts. Crypton, being the original trademark holder started providing these concerts to fans who requested them using fan made songs, fan made costumes and fan made choreographies.
- I leave the last question about the strangeness of reality to you.
Yes. It's all synthesized, and mostly by fans. The Vocaloid software is for sale, for about $100.[1]
Creating a new Vocaloid voice still requires a live singer, who must sing a long list of phrases. It's not a direct voice synthesis. Full singing synthesizers exist, but as yet are not as good.
[1] http://sonicwire.com/product/vocaloid/special/mikuv3e
Creating a new Vocaloid voice still requires a live singer, who must sing a long list of phrases. It's not a direct voice synthesis. Full singing synthesizers exist, but as yet are not as good.
[1] http://sonicwire.com/product/vocaloid/special/mikuv3e
Incorrect, not phrases, syllables and sounds and not very many either, at least for japanese. Things get kind of stupidly large only if you make an english voicebank, because english is highly irregular.