Py1040 – A U.S. personal income tax calculator(github.com)
github.com
Py1040 – A U.S. personal income tax calculator
https://github.com/b-k/py1040
11 comments
Count me as one of the people who needs to pay for software to do taxes every year...it's only something I do once a year, so not frequently enough that personal automation would be worthwhile (even as a weekend project)...and...the tax code to me is probably like what software installation is to the people who pay fees to Geek Squad :p
But this from the author sounds promising:
> By re-presenting the tax calculation as a tree, we have the ability to trace back what led to any surprises on the tax form, aggregate multiple users, and otherwise process the information in a manner that would be difficult or incoherent using only the form view. If your financial situation gives you the freedom to act on what-if scenarios, or if you are a tax researcher considering the situations of diverse taxpayers, the structures here are hopefully more amenable to your needs.
I mean, I guess that's the normal pattern of software innovation...take something very specific, abstract it a bit, and now you have something that opens new ways of thinking and exploring. I wasn't aware that there was XML metadata that could be interpreted...though in retrospect...obviously there would have to be for tax software to stay up to date, though I pictured in my head that Turbotax and its peers just bring in hundreds of data entry persons to pore over reams of tax code paper documents to fix up the app every year.
But this from the author sounds promising:
> By re-presenting the tax calculation as a tree, we have the ability to trace back what led to any surprises on the tax form, aggregate multiple users, and otherwise process the information in a manner that would be difficult or incoherent using only the form view. If your financial situation gives you the freedom to act on what-if scenarios, or if you are a tax researcher considering the situations of diverse taxpayers, the structures here are hopefully more amenable to your needs.
I mean, I guess that's the normal pattern of software innovation...take something very specific, abstract it a bit, and now you have something that opens new ways of thinking and exploring. I wasn't aware that there was XML metadata that could be interpreted...though in retrospect...obviously there would have to be for tax software to stay up to date, though I pictured in my head that Turbotax and its peers just bring in hundreds of data entry persons to pore over reams of tax code paper documents to fix up the app every year.
If you haven't seen it, I'd also recommend looking at the excel1040[1] spreadsheet. It's been developed for about 20 years by a single author, AFAICT. It has numerous forms, schedules, and worksheets, and it makes aggressive use of formulas and locked cells to ensure that calculations are correct. The spreadsheets closely resemble the actual forms, though I don't think people are actually mailing them in as-is.
[1] https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/
[1] https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/
PSA: i tried this out and its very basic. so basic that it doesnt even cover dcap deductions.
Very interesting. Also interesting to see there is an official XML for such things (which this project didn't use :-P).
When I lived in Australia, I liked that there was only one piece of tax software. It's didn't look the prettiest, but the usability wasn't too bad and it was officially developed by the Australian Government. You didn't have to pay someone for tax software and it made filing very easy.
In New Zealand, taxes are automatic. You typically don't have to file and refunds are requested via their website.
When I lived in Australia, I liked that there was only one piece of tax software. It's didn't look the prettiest, but the usability wasn't too bad and it was officially developed by the Australian Government. You didn't have to pay someone for tax software and it made filing very easy.
In New Zealand, taxes are automatic. You typically don't have to file and refunds are requested via their website.
It's automatic here in Sweden too. They send out a document basically saying "this is what we know about your finances and this is the resulting tax effect" and if everything checks out then you just digitally sign it and you're good to go.
And if you have any modifications you need to do, you can do those digitally as well. No mess, easy-peasy.
And if you have any modifications you need to do, you can do those digitally as well. No mess, easy-peasy.
Similar systems have been proposed in the US as well. [0] Disappointingly but unsurprisingly, Intuit (the makers of TurboTax, the most popular tax prep software in the US) spent millions of dollars lobbying the federal government to oppose return-free filing. [1]
0: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/technology/personaltech/tu...
1: http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/27/turbotax-maker-funnels-mill...
0: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/technology/personaltech/tu...
1: http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/27/turbotax-maker-funnels-mill...
The other opponent—surprisingly—are taxpayer advocacy groups. Automatic returns are tied closely to data integrity. The IRS doesn't have a full picture until all Information Returns (IRs: e.g., W-2s, 1040s, 1099s) are submitted by employers, banks, etc., which may not happen until March in some cases. This means that the IRS can't automatically process your return until March/April.
Not a problem, you say? Well, consider this: tax returns in the U.S. are closely tied to tax refunds, which for many Americans, is the largest check they receive all year. So by "fixing" this process, you're affecting real dollars to real Americans, and disproportionately lower-income Americans. It's a political nightmare.
Of course, the "refund" process also indicates a broken system: taxpayers are loaning the U.S. government billions of dollars a year, tax free. And an automatic return system would massively reduce fraud (both evasion and refund fraud)... so...
Not a problem, you say? Well, consider this: tax returns in the U.S. are closely tied to tax refunds, which for many Americans, is the largest check they receive all year. So by "fixing" this process, you're affecting real dollars to real Americans, and disproportionately lower-income Americans. It's a political nightmare.
Of course, the "refund" process also indicates a broken system: taxpayers are loaning the U.S. government billions of dollars a year, tax free. And an automatic return system would massively reduce fraud (both evasion and refund fraud)... so...
About that official XML...
I tried the free fillable forms (https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/#/fd). When I submitted, I got an e-mail saying that it had been submitted. Cool. Then I got an e-mail that said "XML Validation Error". Not cool at all. I mean, I can handle that, but you're sending out XML validation errors to random members of the public? You expect them to understand it?
Worse: The e-mail had a link to a site you could paste the text of the error message into, and get a more comprehensible message back. Well, why didn't they run it through that before sending the e-mail?
Turns out I entered zero on a line I should have left blank, and the XML validator wasn't expecting a child node there (the zero). I was able to figure that out, because the validation failed message was actually fairly readable, as XML error messages go, but still... they're going to hand that message to your barely-computer-savvy grandmother. Not cool. Not cool at all.
I tried the free fillable forms (https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/#/fd). When I submitted, I got an e-mail saying that it had been submitted. Cool. Then I got an e-mail that said "XML Validation Error". Not cool at all. I mean, I can handle that, but you're sending out XML validation errors to random members of the public? You expect them to understand it?
Worse: The e-mail had a link to a site you could paste the text of the error message into, and get a more comprehensible message back. Well, why didn't they run it through that before sending the e-mail?
Turns out I entered zero on a line I should have left blank, and the XML validator wasn't expecting a child node there (the zero). I was able to figure that out, because the validation failed message was actually fairly readable, as XML error messages go, but still... they're going to hand that message to your barely-computer-savvy grandmother. Not cool. Not cool at all.
Nice! I've been doing my own taxes for almost 20 years now. A few years back I wrote a little Python program like this one, and it's made the whole process much less onerous. Each year there are some tweaks to the tax code [1], and some differences in my situation, but mostly things stay the same from year to year.
My question is: why isn't there already a good opensource 1040 calculator? Does a liability disclaimer like Py1040's not cut it? Is it the extreme unsexiness of taxes?
[1] Unfortunately this does involve scanning through the relevant forms and instructions for changes over the prior year -- my kingdom for a diff...
My question is: why isn't there already a good opensource 1040 calculator? Does a liability disclaimer like Py1040's not cut it? Is it the extreme unsexiness of taxes?
[1] Unfortunately this does involve scanning through the relevant forms and instructions for changes over the prior year -- my kingdom for a diff...
There is --- I used opentaxsolver for a number of years. It's definitely un-sexy but it does the job with no fuss.
I don't know why anyone bothers with tax software, let alone writing their own. Why not just use an accountant?
I send all my documents to a local accountant and he sorts it all out once a year for the equivalent of about a quarter of day's wages, and about an hour of my time to sort the documents.
I send all my documents to a local accountant and he sorts it all out once a year for the equivalent of about a quarter of day's wages, and about an hour of my time to sort the documents.
Because I do a better job than the accountant.
They usually bill a fixed rate, and even if they do an hourly rate, they try to do them quickly to get through more of them. They don't spend the hours I do playing "what if". Sometimes certain deductions can apply in different places for very different outcomes.
An example: You manage a property for a friend. You collect the rent and then send it over to them minus a small fee for yourself. You can claim this one of two ways: You can file a schedule C or a schedule E. Each has a very different effect on your final total depending on the rest of your tax situation and the other forms you have filed.
For example, the schedule E increases your AGI, even though you can deduct all the rent you paid back to your friend. The schedule C does not, because only the total counts against your AGI, not all revenue.
So now when you go to deduct your medical expenses, the 7.5% minimum is quite different.
That's just one example of how the what-if plays into it, but only a very expensive accountant will spend the time doing those things and/or have enough experience to know how to do it right the first time.
That being said, I'll probably do a bake off this year again to see if the accountant can do better than I with TurboTax.
They usually bill a fixed rate, and even if they do an hourly rate, they try to do them quickly to get through more of them. They don't spend the hours I do playing "what if". Sometimes certain deductions can apply in different places for very different outcomes.
An example: You manage a property for a friend. You collect the rent and then send it over to them minus a small fee for yourself. You can claim this one of two ways: You can file a schedule C or a schedule E. Each has a very different effect on your final total depending on the rest of your tax situation and the other forms you have filed.
For example, the schedule E increases your AGI, even though you can deduct all the rent you paid back to your friend. The schedule C does not, because only the total counts against your AGI, not all revenue.
So now when you go to deduct your medical expenses, the 7.5% minimum is quite different.
That's just one example of how the what-if plays into it, but only a very expensive accountant will spend the time doing those things and/or have enough experience to know how to do it right the first time.
That being said, I'll probably do a bake off this year again to see if the accountant can do better than I with TurboTax.
Everything I've read seems to imply that schedule c vs schedule e is not a choice the taxpayer makes, but is a function of the particular situation.
Are you saying you believe situations arise like simple property management that do afford a choice?
Could you elaborate?
Are you saying you believe situations arise like simple property management that do afford a choice?
Could you elaborate?
> They don't spend the hours I do playing "what if". Sometimes certain deductions can apply in different places for very different outcomes.
Good point. Now you've got me thinking about what a simple optimizer could do given the small search space of legal inputs. Why does TurboTax even require you to play "what if"?
Good point. Now you've got me thinking about what a simple optimizer could do given the small search space of legal inputs. Why does TurboTax even require you to play "what if"?
Because I can fill out a 1040-EZ in less than an hour by hand.
I'm willing to bet <5% of the readers of HN can use a 1040EZ or 1040A.
Ok, let's ask. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11336568
It's a nice contribution to have non-proprietary tax software, even when its functionality is so basic.
Is Javascript in PDF sophisticated and general enough that something like this could be ported to run inside the form itself? Like having the form itself have a way to ask you the questions and then complete itself with the answers?
Is Javascript in PDF sophisticated and general enough that something like this could be ported to run inside the form itself? Like having the form itself have a way to ask you the questions and then complete itself with the answers?
Haha, No. I am not even responding to the technical side. I am sure it is possible to do such a thing. Unfortunately, there are a lot of forces (one in particular actually) at work lobbying against anything that would make it easier to do taxes.
http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/27/turbotax-maker-funnels-mill...
Virginia used to have a super easy online form you could use to fill out taxes. H&R Block bought out one of our down state representatives and had her kill it off. It still makes me angry every year around tax time.
There is absolutely no reason the IRS couldn't run their own online tax filing system that gets prepopulated with all of the information companies and banks report to the IRS except that it would drive thousands of otherwise useless middlemen out of business. There would still be accountants of course, but only for people who have actual complicated tax returns.
There is absolutely no reason the IRS couldn't run their own online tax filing system that gets prepopulated with all of the information companies and banks report to the IRS except that it would drive thousands of otherwise useless middlemen out of business. There would still be accountants of course, but only for people who have actual complicated tax returns.
In my hazy recollection turbotax once upon a time made it easy to see their own DAG, essentially an outline style index into their various interview questions. Now such navigation is obscured, ostensibly for "user friendliness" I'm sure. sigh.
I lived in the US for a couple of years. I was very surprised that virtually everybody told me that I needed help from a professional accountant (esp. considering my situation was quite simple). Is it the culture or is it really that hard?
Anyway, after a little bit of research, I think I did it correctly with no particular problem. It was just a matter of finding the appropriate forms and reading the documentation.
Anyway, after a little bit of research, I think I did it correctly with no particular problem. It was just a matter of finding the appropriate forms and reading the documentation.
In many cases, it really is that hard.
I like the idea, and wonder how this would play as a Jupyter notebook.
I've wanted this forever!!!
That said -- when this guy is rooming with martha & bernie, intuit will send him fruit baskets to make sure the other inmates give him a warm welcome.
When can we expect py_double_irish?
That said -- when this guy is rooming with martha & bernie, intuit will send him fruit baskets to make sure the other inmates give him a warm welcome.
When can we expect py_double_irish?
i commend the effort, but us tax code is insanely complex, and i doubt a weekend's work can make sense of it.
Most people live in a single state, work a single job, don't itemize deductions, and maybe have a 401k. For them the tax code is actually very simple.
It's when you have relationships with multiple states and countries, businesses, complex investments, and sophisticated tax minimization strategies (taking advantage of all the deductions you can find, etc) that things get unwieldy.
It's when you have relationships with multiple states and countries, businesses, complex investments, and sophisticated tax minimization strategies (taking advantage of all the deductions you can find, etc) that things get unwieldy.
A weekenders work can cover probably 80% of the population. This is the bread and butter of places like H&R Block and Turbotax.
There's not really much they can do to find deductions, they're little more than middlemen the law requires if you want to e-File.
There's not really much they can do to find deductions, they're little more than middlemen the law requires if you want to e-File.
You can e-file for free yourself. There are digital versions of forms like the 1040, schedule c etc...
IIRC you can only e-file for free if you can use a 1040ez, which has some pretty severe limitations. For instance, you can't use it if you're claiming the very common mortgage interest deduction.
https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/ lets you e-file for free with much less stringent limitations: you have to stick to the forms listed at https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/#/fd/forms.availabilit...
One caveat is that it will not do as much automatic propagation of numbers as it _could_, so you end up having to do some manual work that could be automated away. But it will certainly let you e-file.
The second caveat is that this is basically a private organization funded by a consortium of tax-preparation companies, which means that (1) you have to trust them with your tax data (unlike the under-$62k thing that's run directly by the IRS as far as I can tell) and (2) there is zero incentive for this thing to become as good as the for-pay tax preparation software (hence the stupid things that could be automated but aren't).
One caveat is that it will not do as much automatic propagation of numbers as it _could_, so you end up having to do some manual work that could be automated away. But it will certainly let you e-file.
The second caveat is that this is basically a private organization funded by a consortium of tax-preparation companies, which means that (1) you have to trust them with your tax data (unlike the under-$62k thing that's run directly by the IRS as far as I can tell) and (2) there is zero incentive for this thing to become as good as the for-pay tax preparation software (hence the stupid things that could be automated but aren't).
This is just for a single form, the 1040.
I started writing this to do my own taxes, which are very complicated---the project covers forms 1040, 6251, part of 8582, 1040 schedules A & E, and several worksheets because I actually have to file all of those. [Well, I don't have to file f6251, but I can't prove that without going through it.]
But since starting I'm thinking more and more about the value of a public reference version of the tax code. I discuss this more here: https://bureauphile.wordpress.com/2016/03/19/managing-comple... .
Thanks to this thread I've learned about a few other implementations of the code, and I'll have to check them out. But I should note that the XML documents from the IRS are not one of them. They do a good deal of error checking, but you can't use them to solve for the bottom line. It's the lack of a reference implementation of the tax code from the IRS that has led me and evidently several others to roll our own.
Given a reference implementation, there are a lot of things one could do: a what-if calculator for consumers or businesses, a policy analysis tool using IRS SOI (statistics of income) data, still more infographics beyond the one at https://b-k.github.io/1040.js , tools for in-person tax prep for all the tax clinics that pop up this time of year. In a perfect and ideal world, IRS would pick up on all this potential utility and would start providing a reference implementation themselves.