Ask HN: Would you go to Iraq for a year and be paid $200k?
41 comments
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100206/tts-uk-iraq-usa-contrac...
Be careful if you go...
Be careful if you go...
if this job entails working with the militaries technology (servers, networks, etc) you should take it. A lot of the very smart network engineers and programmers that I have met have worked in military; Iraq and DOD.
You are going to be dealing with some high tech environments in Iraq and will get good experience and money in the process.
You are going to be dealing with some high tech environments in Iraq and will get good experience and money in the process.
I think you've already decided. Do it.
I honestly think those who clicked up, have no direct or indirect experience of war. If you had the slightest iota of experience you would be writing a comment like this.
War could possibly be the most crude type of expression a human being can display. If you wish to experience such experiences, by all means head on out and do it. For those cooped up in school, playing video games, a war zone is not a form of gap year, lets go holiday in France effort.
If you into startups, head on out to China, where you will be blown away at the types of experiences and connections you can make. Life is much cheaper out there, connections made can set you up for life, learn a new language with a most powerful form of abstraction. I am pretty sure the chance of making decent business connections, in a once beautiful country that was Iraq now turned cess pit by corporate greed is pretty slim.
It is possible; if you wish to set yourself up as a most brilliant entrepreneur for single handedly transforming Iraq into a haven with your innovations, the world stoop before you, those odds are hard.
A place like China is far more advantageous for you, and if you want it... it can be dangerous too.
War could possibly be the most crude type of expression a human being can display. If you wish to experience such experiences, by all means head on out and do it. For those cooped up in school, playing video games, a war zone is not a form of gap year, lets go holiday in France effort.
If you into startups, head on out to China, where you will be blown away at the types of experiences and connections you can make. Life is much cheaper out there, connections made can set you up for life, learn a new language with a most powerful form of abstraction. I am pretty sure the chance of making decent business connections, in a once beautiful country that was Iraq now turned cess pit by corporate greed is pretty slim.
It is possible; if you wish to set yourself up as a most brilliant entrepreneur for single handedly transforming Iraq into a haven with your innovations, the world stoop before you, those odds are hard.
A place like China is far more advantageous for you, and if you want it... it can be dangerous too.
I have indirect experience.
He should really consider going; it is probably a once in a lifetime experience and extremely sobering.
He should really consider going; it is probably a once in a lifetime experience and extremely sobering.
War is hell, but an IT contractor isn't going to experience much of that hell--there'll be exciting moments when someone unfriendly gets a mortar close enough to lob a few shells into the base, but the stress of waiting for the next such attack isn't like going out on a helicopter and shooting farmers in rice paddies.
I agree with you. I am assuming that he does not have kids yet? So do it for the experience.
I did a similar thing. I quit my job at a big company and right now I am in Norway for a few months.
I am from the Philippines and believe it or not, I just experienced my first snow a few weeks ago.
I did a similar thing. I quit my job at a big company and right now I am in Norway for a few months.
I am from the Philippines and believe it or not, I just experienced my first snow a few weeks ago.
I'd do it. Living and working in Iraq would be an amazing and unique experience, even without the high pay. Pick up an Arabic phrasebook while you're on your way.
As long as it'd be safe, I'd go for it without hesitation. New place, fun work, big accomplishment, lots of money and free time? I'm not sure what down side you see, but it would need to be huge to turn this down.
my mind says yes, but my body says stay the fuck away, I dont wanna die. So the question still remains and I definitely am looking for advice.
One thing to consider is whether or not you are rationally evaluating the safety of the situation. We are not privy to the details, but you should keep in mind the fact that most of the new you will get about that particular location is "news" because it is basically bad news. Like airline travel, you don't hear the "person gets on plane, has boring trip, gets off plane" stories but instead only notice the events that end up killing people. I would suggest you try to get as much information as you can about the reality of your potential situation over there and then compare it to the violent crime rate in your current location. Once you have established some baseline facts you will be in a much better position to decide if the experience/money is worth any additional risk that might be involved.
If that's your primary concern, then let's get some hard information on the security situation. I heard American deaths were way down, which means even less for the techies off the front lines.
There were 149 American deaths in Iraq last year, but I think that might mean just soldiers. So about one out of every thousand soldiers. http://www.icasualties.org/Iraq/index.aspx
Also, there were 676 wounded, or about 4 out of every thousand. So 0.5% of the total force was killed or wounded. You could dig around for more exact numbers, but 1 out of 200 is a good first approximation for the injury/death rate of American forces in Iraq.
There were 149 American deaths in Iraq last year, but I think that might mean just soldiers. So about one out of every thousand soldiers. http://www.icasualties.org/Iraq/index.aspx
Also, there were 676 wounded, or about 4 out of every thousand. So 0.5% of the total force was killed or wounded. You could dig around for more exact numbers, but 1 out of 200 is a good first approximation for the injury/death rate of American forces in Iraq.
Iraq is a lot safer than it was a few years ago. I don't think you would have much to worry about from a safety perspective.
Just curious, if you accepted, would you have to go through the State Department training and carry a weapon?
Just curious, if you accepted, would you have to go through the State Department training and carry a weapon?
Doesn't DC have one of the highest murder rates in the country? Whats to stop you from getting shot or into a bad car accident in Washington D.C.?
Point is, theres always going to be a risk, regardless of where you happen to live. Might as well go somewhere interesting (and make a good bit of $ while you're at it, in this case).
Point is, theres always going to be a risk, regardless of where you happen to live. Might as well go somewhere interesting (and make a good bit of $ while you're at it, in this case).
I'm a DC native, born and raised. For starters, almost all that violence is between subsistence drug dealers in areas of the city and PG County where the poster is unlikely to even drive through. It doesn't involve the yuppies at all, and it's a fraction of what it was in the mid nineties before gentrification kicked into overdrive.
Furthermore, he said he was in "Washington DC area", which is code for the wealthy suburbs where the vast majority of the population lives. Most work there too: the only jobs in DC proper are in NGOs, lobbying, civil service, and the service jobs to support them.
Furthermore, he said he was in "Washington DC area", which is code for the wealthy suburbs where the vast majority of the population lives. Most work there too: the only jobs in DC proper are in NGOs, lobbying, civil service, and the service jobs to support them.
live in the fairfax area...
Where are you going? How safe is it? What type of insurance do you get. What would happen if in the worst case you lost your leg or arm? Do you have family to support/be away from.
If your a single guy going to relatively safe spot I'd say go for it.
If your a single guy going to relatively safe spot I'd say go for it.
The US Government pays generous Worker's Compensation insurance premiums (mostly to AIG) for all overseas defense contractor employees under the terms of a WWII-era bill: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Base_Act
sounds like an interesting decision. best of luck.
one thing to keep in mind is that 200k probably means more like 100k after taxes. that only leaves you about 20k overhead after you pay your student loans. just something to think about.
one thing to keep in mind is that 200k probably means more like 100k after taxes. that only leaves you about 20k overhead after you pay your student loans. just something to think about.
Usually the first $80k is tax-free for travels to Iraq/Afghanistan, after that you get taxed at the "normal" rate.
A friend of mine did this kind of work. He worked for KBR as some kind of contractor (in the green zone, out of the field). He said he grossed 216k in one year, 80k tax free. He also said that because he was always in the same location and working 12/hrs day, meals free, room free, he spent very little of what he earned. This was 2007, and he was ex-military, so mmv.
You're not giving us the alternatives. From how you've described it, the opportunity sounds great.
But we don't know much about your current working situation. From what you have written, I assume that the other alternative you have pay (considerably?) <$200K. We don't know anything else about your current job. Thus it's tough to say NO because there's really only one choice that you've presented.
So without knowing much about your best alternatives, I'll leave you with this piece of advice. When considering a new job, consider 1. the people, 2. the position, 3. the salary and 4. the company. And place a big emphasis on numbers 1 and 2 rather than 3 and 4.
Also, the other guys are right - it does sound like you're very excited. I'm only hesitant to say "Go for it!" because I don't know anything about what it's like in Iraq. I'm all for new experiences but I wouldn't be able to recommend something I had no clue about.
But we don't know much about your current working situation. From what you have written, I assume that the other alternative you have pay (considerably?) <$200K. We don't know anything else about your current job. Thus it's tough to say NO because there's really only one choice that you've presented.
So without knowing much about your best alternatives, I'll leave you with this piece of advice. When considering a new job, consider 1. the people, 2. the position, 3. the salary and 4. the company. And place a big emphasis on numbers 1 and 2 rather than 3 and 4.
Also, the other guys are right - it does sound like you're very excited. I'm only hesitant to say "Go for it!" because I don't know anything about what it's like in Iraq. I'm all for new experiences but I wouldn't be able to recommend something I had no clue about.
I'm not sure, there are jobs (at least in SV) that while not at that pay level, are probably between your current pay and $200k, that would allow you to be around very bright potential co-founders, and do not involve a non-zero risk of being killed. But, as metra said, without knowing your current salary, it's hard to give firm advice one way or the other. I also put considerable emphasis on the caliber of the other developers I work with.
I would as long as I'm not used as a flesh shield ;) What kind of job would you have there?
the job would be installing comm stations...
Where can I find a job like that?
check out the big defense contractors:
ITT General Dynamics Dyncorp KBR/Halliburton L-3 General Atomics CACI
Basically, if you want to be doing something decent, make sure you can get at least secret (not a felon, a US citizen), be vaguely professional and competent (certs are a plus, like CISA/CISSP/CCDP), and familiar with the technologies they want (it's a big crappy AD/MS network, but there's also a lot of IP stuff).
ITT General Dynamics Dyncorp KBR/Halliburton L-3 General Atomics CACI
Basically, if you want to be doing something decent, make sure you can get at least secret (not a felon, a US citizen), be vaguely professional and competent (certs are a plus, like CISA/CISSP/CCDP), and familiar with the technologies they want (it's a big crappy AD/MS network, but there's also a lot of IP stuff).
[deleted]
Allow me to be the dissenter.
If you're doing this for the military or the government, I would urge you to consider if your work is contributing to all of the wrong reasons why we (as a country) are there, or if it's going to contribute to helping correct the mistakes that got us there.
Is war really something you want to experience? Things are calm there now, relative to a few years ago, but - imho - still is a pretty bad place for American civilians.
Anyways, if it were me, it would more or less come down on the morality of what I'm contributing to directly through my work. Yes, 200K is a lot of money, but there isn't any reason, if you're good, that you won't eventually be making that every 1.5-2 years in a metropolitan area like NYC.
This is all under the assumptions you'd be working for the US government.
If you're doing this for the military or the government, I would urge you to consider if your work is contributing to all of the wrong reasons why we (as a country) are there, or if it's going to contribute to helping correct the mistakes that got us there.
Is war really something you want to experience? Things are calm there now, relative to a few years ago, but - imho - still is a pretty bad place for American civilians.
Anyways, if it were me, it would more or less come down on the morality of what I'm contributing to directly through my work. Yes, 200K is a lot of money, but there isn't any reason, if you're good, that you won't eventually be making that every 1.5-2 years in a metropolitan area like NYC.
This is all under the assumptions you'd be working for the US government.
I'm pretty sure these gigs are tax free for the first $80k.
It's fairly easy to say that I would do it, especially without being in this position.
Really, I think you would have to evaluate your current situation. Do you have other job offers, or a current job? How do those jobs weigh in comparison? The fact that you are asking us leads me to suggest that perhaps you want to go and people are trying to convince you otherwise? If that be the case, then I suggest you do what you want to do, screw what other people think - unless you have significant others, or kids depending on you.
However, if you are solely interested in the money, but scared of going to Iraq I really would advise against taking the offer. Going to a place like Iraq for that much money seems like you would be getting yourself into a situation you couldn't easily back out of. It would suck to live an entire year in regret - especially in that part of the world.
Regardless, I wish you the best of luck. Take our suggestions as a grain of salt. You will have to live with your decision for an entire year..not us.
Really, I think you would have to evaluate your current situation. Do you have other job offers, or a current job? How do those jobs weigh in comparison? The fact that you are asking us leads me to suggest that perhaps you want to go and people are trying to convince you otherwise? If that be the case, then I suggest you do what you want to do, screw what other people think - unless you have significant others, or kids depending on you.
However, if you are solely interested in the money, but scared of going to Iraq I really would advise against taking the offer. Going to a place like Iraq for that much money seems like you would be getting yourself into a situation you couldn't easily back out of. It would suck to live an entire year in regret - especially in that part of the world.
Regardless, I wish you the best of luck. Take our suggestions as a grain of salt. You will have to live with your decision for an entire year..not us.
you are right on people telling me no and not to do it. Im looking for non biased opinions..
Pretend the salary is the same in both places, and judge the decision just on the experience factor. (I say this because for a variety of reasons, you could make that much money in the States as a reasonably curious, skilled person. You read Hacker News after all :D You know all about salary ranges, entrepreneurship, affiliate programs, Parrot Books, and Adsense. I'm not saying we all make 200K, we just all know about opportunities... :D ).
So... unless it's desperate, debt or any kind of financial incentive is probably a bad reason to pick any job under such unique conditions. That said, if the experience is compelling, then listen to that part of your heart.
Good luck. Let us know what you choose.
So... unless it's desperate, debt or any kind of financial incentive is probably a bad reason to pick any job under such unique conditions. That said, if the experience is compelling, then listen to that part of your heart.
Good luck. Let us know what you choose.
"Pretend the salary is the same in both places, and judge the decision just on the experience factor. I say this because for a variety of reasons, you could make that much money in the States as a reasonably curious, skilled person."
200K for one year in Iraq might actually be significantly more than 200K for one year in California, for instance, depending on cost of living. I can't imagine actually buying anything in Iraq would cost much (or be that compelling of an option), so if room and board is either cheap or included with the job, you might save a lot of the 200K.
200K for one year in Iraq might actually be significantly more than 200K for one year in California, for instance, depending on cost of living. I can't imagine actually buying anything in Iraq would cost much (or be that compelling of an option), so if room and board is either cheap or included with the job, you might save a lot of the 200K.
You bring up a great point, possible differences in expenses. I bet you're right, it's not just a normal gig/set-up.
That said, I don't change my main idea or advice: To remove the compensation as a reason to do this.
It's such a unique job (to put it mildly). And the fact that if one is undergoing extreme conditions either way, one can greatly increase their income with other strategies, I still think this should be a non-financial decision, and purely a lifestyle/values/learning/risk one.
That said, I don't change my main idea or advice: To remove the compensation as a reason to do this.
It's such a unique job (to put it mildly). And the fact that if one is undergoing extreme conditions either way, one can greatly increase their income with other strategies, I still think this should be a non-financial decision, and purely a lifestyle/values/learning/risk one.
one can greatly increase their income with other strategies
Of course those "other strategies" have a different risk profile. You might be right about not considering income, but then you should also ignore risks. All of them.
If I were in the same position, I would go for it ... or something vaguely similar (like, say, Kwajalein radar support). But then, I never was a party animal.
Of course those "other strategies" have a different risk profile. You might be right about not considering income, but then you should also ignore risks. All of them.
If I were in the same position, I would go for it ... or something vaguely similar (like, say, Kwajalein radar support). But then, I never was a party animal.
200k in iraq is 200k in your bank account when you come back.
200k in the US has to pay for your life.
Hell yeah.
I say so now, but i wonder if I'd get over there and have to confront Hurt Locker-esque situations. I'm 22, so my risk tolerance may be above average.
I say so now, but i wonder if I'd get over there and have to confront Hurt Locker-esque situations. I'm 22, so my risk tolerance may be above average.
Shan't tell you what to do mate, but after seeing a family member go out there and get his leg blown off, I highly suggest you to avoid this kind of environment. Keep your mind focussed on what you are doing, and not avoiding bullets, incoming shells, kidnapping, etc.
not to mention, should you get injured can your family afford the time and money to cater for your disabilities?
I have to echo the sentiments of everyone else: as long as you'll be (reasonably) safe, do it.
Having lived abroad myself (China), I can tell you that the experience will broaden your mind. Keep an open outlook and heed albertsun's advice to learn some Arabic and you'll have an amazing time.
Having lived abroad myself (China), I can tell you that the experience will broaden your mind. Keep an open outlook and heed albertsun's advice to learn some Arabic and you'll have an amazing time.
If there's a 3% chance of a mortar landing near you, is that worth it? Honest question. A lot of folks would risk their life for a 3% chance at any significant amount of money. Personally, I wouldn't- I would rather keep my 'risks of dying' to things like mugging (.05%/day), bus crashes (.005%/day), and dying in a nuclear holocaust (.00005%/day).
Just a matter of how much risk you're cool with.
Just a matter of how much risk you're cool with.
strange how first hand stories, speak of 3 shells coming into a gym where people are training, along a straight line, luckily my brother, leaped behind sandbags and just prayed that the fourth one didn't come down on top of him.
it didn't come in, but people died.
3% chance, more like 3 shells at a go.
it didn't come in, but people died.
3% chance, more like 3 shells at a go.
Tangentially, where do you get actuarial numbers like that, and is there enough data to build conditional probability tables (something like "if you motorcycle 15k miles/year, your chance of dying from an accident rises 300%, and your chances of dying from a heart attack drop by 15%")?
I'd do it just for the experience... and the extra money wouldn't hurt.
Yes. Very solid yes.
You don't see much of this in the media, but Iraq is a stunningly beautiful country. There's a lot that you can learn from the people there (and certainly much they could learn from you), and the Arabic language is nothing short of remarkable.
Diving head-first into another culture is one of the few educations that the Internet and college cannot fully convey via text. You won't regret it.
You don't see much of this in the media, but Iraq is a stunningly beautiful country. There's a lot that you can learn from the people there (and certainly much they could learn from you), and the Arabic language is nothing short of remarkable.
Diving head-first into another culture is one of the few educations that the Internet and college cannot fully convey via text. You won't regret it.
The only culture he would be 'diving head-first into' is the US military culture; my guess is that his contact with the country would be somewhat limited, for obvious reasons. If you want to really experience a local culture, there are probably better countries for that, where you can concentrate on getting to know the people and culture and not worrying.
don't go there mate, it's not worth it
I'd do it if I wouldn't have a family here and realise: one year. what is one year? its about to be nothing and in the end maybe you like this country get contacts there and more opportunities for more jobs, projects, whatever.
And about the risk. Scientists found out that the risk of dying on a heart attack increases about 50% if you are spending more than 5 hours per day in front of a computer or tv, so what are 3% compared to 50%? Offices equal all over the world.
One year for debt free living and extra money? Yes, you can.
edit: but please keep us informed and upload pictures :D
One year for debt free living and extra money? Yes, you can.
edit: but please keep us informed and upload pictures :D
If you are going to be coding, I would think that you are not going to be in too much danger - they aren't going to ship you out to places to install things in the thick of battle, right?
I say go for it. IIRC the entirety of the $200K will be tax free.
While there, network amongst the people there (you should be able to make some long term friends) and well, who knows where those contacts will lead afterwards.
I say go for it. IIRC the entirety of the $200K will be tax free.
While there, network amongst the people there (you should be able to make some long term friends) and well, who knows where those contacts will lead afterwards.
Money is a huge incentive especially early in your career. It will absolutely be a once in a life time experience, that said it may be your last experience in this lifetime.
You enjoy your job now and are only 4 months in. Do not discount the value of local experience relative to foreign experience. Later in your career taking experience abroad may be an asset depending on your role, but early on local experience and the local contact network you build has a lot of value.
I suspect the hour or two a day you spend relaxing can be filled with starting those projects you have "always wanted to get off the ground". It is far more dangerous there than it appears on TV; private contractor casualties are NOT public information. If it was elsewhere in the region like Dubai it'd be an entirely different equation, but it is Iraq.
This link will give you an impression of the lifestyle of a tech guy in Iraq http://www.rezendi.com/travels/bbbb.html "blood bullets ad bandwidth" be aware that the situation has changed since this was published and the danger is very real. If it seemed like you've been in that kind of environment before I wouldn't have responded at all as you'd know the score, but it sounds like you've never served in the military, or been in hot zones before, I urge you to consider carefully.
You enjoy your job now and are only 4 months in. Do not discount the value of local experience relative to foreign experience. Later in your career taking experience abroad may be an asset depending on your role, but early on local experience and the local contact network you build has a lot of value.
I suspect the hour or two a day you spend relaxing can be filled with starting those projects you have "always wanted to get off the ground". It is far more dangerous there than it appears on TV; private contractor casualties are NOT public information. If it was elsewhere in the region like Dubai it'd be an entirely different equation, but it is Iraq.
This link will give you an impression of the lifestyle of a tech guy in Iraq http://www.rezendi.com/travels/bbbb.html "blood bullets ad bandwidth" be aware that the situation has changed since this was published and the danger is very real. If it seemed like you've been in that kind of environment before I wouldn't have responded at all as you'd know the score, but it sounds like you've never served in the military, or been in hot zones before, I urge you to consider carefully.
Heh, that article was written about me by my friend Jon!
It's not really very realistic for 2010 working for a big contractor, in 2005 things were in flux and I ran my own tiny company.
It's not really very realistic for 2010 working for a big contractor, in 2005 things were in flux and I ran my own tiny company.
Man, I loved your story! You're probably the best guy to give our friend here an informed opinion as a technical contractor. That was a completely different level of returns and it was your company.
Fortune favors the bold.
I am a defense contractor; I've worked in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, etc. since about 2004.
1) $200k is pretty weak, even for today (it's gone downhill overall). If you can get a secret (basically, us citizen and not a felon), and have decent tech skills, you should be at $200-350k.
2) It's not tax free. The FIRST ~$85k is tax-exempt, which saves you about 18k. You then pay taxes at the normal 27-36% rates above that. My win s that I don't have an apartment back in the US, so my only expenses while here are car payment, storage, and server colo.
3) Big difference in quality of life throughout the country -- if you're on base at Balad or Victory it's basically like living in a small town in the US. If you're out in a Bn or smaller unit on an iraqi army base, or out in the city, it's a lot different. I've done a variety.
4) If you've never been in the military or had contact with it, I'd do it for a year just for the experience -- it's actually something I think everyone should do for a couple years.
The biggest downsides for me:
1) I gained about 20 pounds last year in Afghanistan living on Bagram, due to the shitty but high-calorie carb-laden food.
2) Generally, working for government is the anti-startup. You are specifically instructed not to take any initiative, everything is more concerned about process than results, etc. Actual combat is different, but there is no real combat in Iraq or Kuwait now, and in Afghanistan it is unlikely a contractor involved in direct combat support would be posting like this on hackernews. (If I could get a job where I got to put bullets into bad guys 12-24h/day, I'd do it for $20k/yr, but aside from joining a government agency or the military, it would be difficult to find a contractor in 2010 who does this ... blackwater/triple canopy/etc. etc back in 2003-2005 were about the only ones)
3) There is no firm end date. I did this for 6 months just to see what it would be like, and have wasted about 4 of the past 5 years in the sandbox. I'm planning to leave in a few months to work on a startup of my own in the USA again (maybe YC 2010 Summer!), using some of my experiences from here, but it's totally possible to keep doing this indefinitely.
4) The war is definitely winding down, so pay, upward mobility, etc. continue to decrease
5) People in the defense industry are NOT like startup people -- there are huge amounts of fraud, backstabbing, incompetence, etc. Startup deals for $50m can be done on a handshake; here you need lawyers, contracts, audits, etc. or you will get fucked.
1) $200k is pretty weak, even for today (it's gone downhill overall). If you can get a secret (basically, us citizen and not a felon), and have decent tech skills, you should be at $200-350k.
2) It's not tax free. The FIRST ~$85k is tax-exempt, which saves you about 18k. You then pay taxes at the normal 27-36% rates above that. My win s that I don't have an apartment back in the US, so my only expenses while here are car payment, storage, and server colo.
3) Big difference in quality of life throughout the country -- if you're on base at Balad or Victory it's basically like living in a small town in the US. If you're out in a Bn or smaller unit on an iraqi army base, or out in the city, it's a lot different. I've done a variety.
4) If you've never been in the military or had contact with it, I'd do it for a year just for the experience -- it's actually something I think everyone should do for a couple years.
The biggest downsides for me:
1) I gained about 20 pounds last year in Afghanistan living on Bagram, due to the shitty but high-calorie carb-laden food.
2) Generally, working for government is the anti-startup. You are specifically instructed not to take any initiative, everything is more concerned about process than results, etc. Actual combat is different, but there is no real combat in Iraq or Kuwait now, and in Afghanistan it is unlikely a contractor involved in direct combat support would be posting like this on hackernews. (If I could get a job where I got to put bullets into bad guys 12-24h/day, I'd do it for $20k/yr, but aside from joining a government agency or the military, it would be difficult to find a contractor in 2010 who does this ... blackwater/triple canopy/etc. etc back in 2003-2005 were about the only ones)
3) There is no firm end date. I did this for 6 months just to see what it would be like, and have wasted about 4 of the past 5 years in the sandbox. I'm planning to leave in a few months to work on a startup of my own in the USA again (maybe YC 2010 Summer!), using some of my experiences from here, but it's totally possible to keep doing this indefinitely.
4) The war is definitely winding down, so pay, upward mobility, etc. continue to decrease
5) People in the defense industry are NOT like startup people -- there are huge amounts of fraud, backstabbing, incompetence, etc. Startup deals for $50m can be done on a handshake; here you need lawyers, contracts, audits, etc. or you will get fucked.
Upvoted for the information, but your fantasy of "putting bullets into bad guys" while working for the U.S. army is pretty sickening. Outside of military, nationalist propaganda, you are most likely fighting someone who is defending his home country against invasion and occupation. The 'good guys, bad guys' thing is a little uneducated. Sorry for the interlude.
I imagine your perspective changes a lot if you're out there on the ground.
For the invaders, it's mostly their choice to be out there on the ground ... for the defenders, it's not ... so maybe people in the army should understand if the natives are a little pissed off. After all, those bombs they've sent probably killed a lot of innocent people.
I imagine your perspective changes a lot if you're out there on the ground.
"I imagine your perspective changes a lot if you're out there on the ground."
Very true, when your country is invaded and your friends and family shot/raped/jailed/killed by the invader's mercenaries, your perspective probably changes very fast!
Anyone getting in actual combat will experience perspective change no matter which side he is on I guess.
It is a bit harder for the rest of the world to sympathize with the invaders than with people defending their own homes and country. Just imagine your country invaded by a self righteous army trying to "uplift" you. I actually like the Unites States a lot, have lived there and so on, but if the USA were to invade my country you can be sure I'd fight back too. Americans would, if they were invaded instead of being the invaders.
Very true, when your country is invaded and your friends and family shot/raped/jailed/killed by the invader's mercenaries, your perspective probably changes very fast!
Anyone getting in actual combat will experience perspective change no matter which side he is on I guess.
It is a bit harder for the rest of the world to sympathize with the invaders than with people defending their own homes and country. Just imagine your country invaded by a self righteous army trying to "uplift" you. I actually like the Unites States a lot, have lived there and so on, but if the USA were to invade my country you can be sure I'd fight back too. Americans would, if they were invaded instead of being the invaders.
We aren't there to "uplift" them. We're there to stop safe havens for terrorist groups from being set up by the Taliban, a group that was formed in and supported by Pakistan.
If America was taken over by a group that violated human rights like the Taliban, that was refused to even be recognized as the legitimate government by the overwhelming majority of nations in the world, and was the subject of binding UN sanctions, yes I would sympathize with the invaders. But that's just me.
If America was taken over by a group that violated human rights like the Taliban, that was refused to even be recognized as the legitimate government by the overwhelming majority of nations in the world, and was the subject of binding UN sanctions, yes I would sympathize with the invaders. But that's just me.
> We're there to stop safe havens for terrorist groups from being set up by the Taliban, a group that was formed in and supported by Pakistan.
These people, including Al-Qaeda, where receiving funds from the US (with the help of Pakistan no doubt) to support their struggle against the soviets.
The Taliban's origins are in Afghanistan, which was later abandoned ... which is regrettable, since the aid it needed for building schools and hospitals was a only a fraction of the money already spent in warfare by the US.
I guess this is what you get when you're having the God syndrome. If you're going to interfere with other people's business, at least do it right.
These people, including Al-Qaeda, where receiving funds from the US (with the help of Pakistan no doubt) to support their struggle against the soviets.
The Taliban's origins are in Afghanistan, which was later abandoned ... which is regrettable, since the aid it needed for building schools and hospitals was a only a fraction of the money already spent in warfare by the US.
I guess this is what you get when you're having the God syndrome. If you're going to interfere with other people's business, at least do it right.
" We're there to stop safe havens for terrorist groups from being set up by the Taliban, a group that was formed in and supported by Pakistan."
I was talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan. The topic is about hackers going to Iraq. Nice trick of deflection.
Why are you in Iraq again? Persuading the American public that the invasion of Iraq was a response to 9/11 is the greatest con game in history.
As as to the Taliban, they are holed up in Pakistan (and Somalia, and Yemen) these days . Will you be invading those countries too?
I was talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan. The topic is about hackers going to Iraq. Nice trick of deflection.
Why are you in Iraq again? Persuading the American public that the invasion of Iraq was a response to 9/11 is the greatest con game in history.
As as to the Taliban, they are holed up in Pakistan (and Somalia, and Yemen) these days . Will you be invading those countries too?
rdl's post that started this thread discussed contracting in Afghanistan, and replies to that post discussed overseas deployments in a general sense. In fact the "bullets in the bad guys" comment that set off this thread comes in rdl's point 2 about combat going on in Afghanistan and not Iraq. It wasn't a trick or deflection. My comments about the Taliban also go for Saddam and his Ba'ath party.
My country has been invaded by a self-righteoius army trying to "uplift" me. I call them Christians, and I consider them the real enemy in this country.
There is a pretty wide gap between the actual bad guys who must be killed (Al Qaeda, other transnational terrorist groups, and the hard core of the insurgencies in many countries..the people who go around blowing up schools, chopping off hands of those who vote, etc.), and the majority of the enemy (who are purely mercenary foot soldiers, or common/pretty criminals, or some kind of tribal/ethnic group).
The ideal outcome is to separate the really bad guys and let tier-1 US units go after them (kill or capture; with kill being the most common outcome), while using politics and economics to reduce the number of the second category, convert them into either peaceful civilians or members of the security establishment in the country, etc.
Saddam, Uday, Qusay, and the other leaders: kill or capture Top-level baathists: prosecute using local courts Iraqi soldiers, local tribal militias, etc.: Bring them into the IP/IA/etc.
That's been the (successful) strategy since ~2006.
(I was actually AGAINST the Iraq war, because it was a distraction from going after Al Qaeda globally)
The ideal outcome is to separate the really bad guys and let tier-1 US units go after them (kill or capture; with kill being the most common outcome), while using politics and economics to reduce the number of the second category, convert them into either peaceful civilians or members of the security establishment in the country, etc.
Saddam, Uday, Qusay, and the other leaders: kill or capture Top-level baathists: prosecute using local courts Iraqi soldiers, local tribal militias, etc.: Bring them into the IP/IA/etc.
That's been the (successful) strategy since ~2006.
(I was actually AGAINST the Iraq war, because it was a distraction from going after Al Qaeda globally)
Also, people here do not realize:
An IT contractor (presumably for ITT, at that low salary) is working at a helpdesk on a big base. The contact with locals is almost zero. You'll encounter a lot of interesting third country nationals (filipinos, indians, etc.) working on base, but that's about it. Mainly, you will be dealing with other Americans (military or contractor.
It's basically the most boring helpdesk job possible in a boring environment.
The "contact with local culture" is "local vendor sets up a shop on base selling overpriced carpets and camel figurines".
If you just want contact with an exotic culture, go backpacking in India/Nepal/Indonesia/etc.
The only reason for defense contracting in 2010 is money, and "seeing what the military is like up close" (I thought it was much more homogenous and omnipotent than it turned out to be. I'm not sure if I like it more or less now)
An IT contractor (presumably for ITT, at that low salary) is working at a helpdesk on a big base. The contact with locals is almost zero. You'll encounter a lot of interesting third country nationals (filipinos, indians, etc.) working on base, but that's about it. Mainly, you will be dealing with other Americans (military or contractor.
It's basically the most boring helpdesk job possible in a boring environment.
The "contact with local culture" is "local vendor sets up a shop on base selling overpriced carpets and camel figurines".
If you just want contact with an exotic culture, go backpacking in India/Nepal/Indonesia/etc.
The only reason for defense contracting in 2010 is money, and "seeing what the military is like up close" (I thought it was much more homogenous and omnipotent than it turned out to be. I'm not sure if I like it more or less now)
If it were me, I would not go. I would love to be paid $200k, but it's not a life changing amount of money worth the risk I see associated with going there. (if it were $500k+, it starts getting a bit different)
If you want to do it for the experience, that's one thing, though there are many places in the world that are fairly safe without bearing the same risk at the moment, and I'm sure spending one year in a completely different culture will be a life-changing experience!
But if you want to do it for the money, this isn't a significant amount of money in the long term.
But, of course, that's just my opinion. :)
If you want to do it for the experience, that's one thing, though there are many places in the world that are fairly safe without bearing the same risk at the moment, and I'm sure spending one year in a completely different culture will be a life-changing experience!
But if you want to do it for the money, this isn't a significant amount of money in the long term.
But, of course, that's just my opinion. :)
There's going to be an election in March, and the results of it will help determine what sort of place it will be for the foreseeable future.
It's clear that if the sunnis and the shiites can't share power politically, that the levels of violence are likely to escalate. If they can, they'll likely stay level or trend downward.
That said, if you're seriously considering it, I'd read some of the numerous accounts from journalists and other non-combat professionals who have spent time over there.
If after recognizing the possibility of changes in the security situation, the dangers associated with working in Iraq (both physical and mental) you still want to go.... go ahead.
But personally, I wouldn't even consider it. Making money isn't really that hard, and there are countless interesting experiences I can have that don't involve substantial risk of trauma.
That said, everybody's money threshold is different, and it's a lot easier to say no to $200k as somebody who already lives comfortably and has a family to take care of, than it would be to say it as somebody who isn't yet financially comfortable, and whose passing would affect only parents, not wives/children.
It's clear that if the sunnis and the shiites can't share power politically, that the levels of violence are likely to escalate. If they can, they'll likely stay level or trend downward.
That said, if you're seriously considering it, I'd read some of the numerous accounts from journalists and other non-combat professionals who have spent time over there.
If after recognizing the possibility of changes in the security situation, the dangers associated with working in Iraq (both physical and mental) you still want to go.... go ahead.
But personally, I wouldn't even consider it. Making money isn't really that hard, and there are countless interesting experiences I can have that don't involve substantial risk of trauma.
That said, everybody's money threshold is different, and it's a lot easier to say no to $200k as somebody who already lives comfortably and has a family to take care of, than it would be to say it as somebody who isn't yet financially comfortable, and whose passing would affect only parents, not wives/children.
On security in 2010:
1) Afghanistan can still be dangerous. The risk for a trigger puller/door kicker is very high, but for an IT contractor it's about the same as riding a motorcycle 50-100mi/day in Seattle.
2) Iraq is actually safer (on base, for IT contractors) than living in a lot of big but not especially nice cities. The biggest risk is honestly chronic health conditions (like a heart attack) or people having emotional/relationship/etc. issues and self-inflicted injury.
3) Kuwait is INSANE. Specifically, driving off-base is insane. I drive about 2-3h/day between US bases, and see one obviously-fatal motor vehicle accident on the highways every day. The only time in my life I've ever done CPR and treated arterial bleeding (I'm an IT guy, not a doctor!) was responding to a Kuwaiti on Kuwaiti vehicle accident a couple years ago. I'd say the risk is about the same as riding 50-100 miles/day on a motorcycle, drunk, in a not-especially-motorcycle-friendly city.
4) Qatar is like Kuwait only safer.
5) Bahrain is safer than Kuwait and fun, except on Thursday/Friday when lots of drunk Saudi weekend guys show up, turning it into Kuwait-level danger.
There are lots of reasons to do or not do this, but safety is basically not an issue (except if you're driving between bases in Kuwait, which people don't really do)
1) Afghanistan can still be dangerous. The risk for a trigger puller/door kicker is very high, but for an IT contractor it's about the same as riding a motorcycle 50-100mi/day in Seattle.
2) Iraq is actually safer (on base, for IT contractors) than living in a lot of big but not especially nice cities. The biggest risk is honestly chronic health conditions (like a heart attack) or people having emotional/relationship/etc. issues and self-inflicted injury.
3) Kuwait is INSANE. Specifically, driving off-base is insane. I drive about 2-3h/day between US bases, and see one obviously-fatal motor vehicle accident on the highways every day. The only time in my life I've ever done CPR and treated arterial bleeding (I'm an IT guy, not a doctor!) was responding to a Kuwaiti on Kuwaiti vehicle accident a couple years ago. I'd say the risk is about the same as riding 50-100 miles/day on a motorcycle, drunk, in a not-especially-motorcycle-friendly city.
4) Qatar is like Kuwait only safer.
5) Bahrain is safer than Kuwait and fun, except on Thursday/Friday when lots of drunk Saudi weekend guys show up, turning it into Kuwait-level danger.
There are lots of reasons to do or not do this, but safety is basically not an issue (except if you're driving between bases in Kuwait, which people don't really do)
My friend had a job that sent him there for a "tour" of many months, with similar pay. It was boring at times, and he lived in a trailer on a base, but he kept going back for more tours, so he definitely thought it was worth it.
Figure out where/what you'll be doing and what level of interesting work and risk you'll be seeing. I went over in 2004 and it was definitely an exciting time but I wasn't working on a base so YMMV. I liked the local food, I don't know how I would fare on a year of mess hall fare.
I'm really rather keen on having my head attached to my body, so I would have to say no. I bet Ken Bigley thought he was on to a nice little earner, right up until al-Zarqawi's men came through the door.
I'm just a clueless civvie, but it seems to me that the insurgency in Iraq is becoming more indiscriminate and that the risks to all westerners there are largely similar, regardless of what they are there to do. IEDs and mortars don't distinguish between military and civilian targets. The kidnapper actively seek out civilians.
Other posters with far more relevant experience than I seem to think that you won't really have any contact with the locals and spend most of your time doing grunt work, so it doesn't seem to me like there are many intangible benefits beyond being able to say that you've worked in a warzone. If you want a great cultural experience, surely you'd be better off going to places where you don't have to travel in a convoy of armoured cars? Travel is tremendously cheap at the moment and there are plenty of opportunities to work your way around, especially as a young, educated American - half the world is willing to offer you a Working Holiday visa. If you don't fancy teaching English, tending a bar or picking fruit, you could tote a laptop and freelance.
Think about longer-term earning potential. What would you learn in Iraq that would make you attractive to civilian employers? What opportunities would that entry on your CV open up? What would be the value of a year's experience as a junior developer at a bank, for instance?
If you're typical of the average HN reader, you could do far better. I can't begin to estimate the value created by the average startup founder in their first year, but I'm guessing that it's a hell of a lot more than $200k. It's never been cheaper to startup and never easier to reach ramen profitability. There's never been more angel money and never more VCs willing to make small, early-stage investments.
The opportunity you have strikes me as a boring, dangerous dead-end for not very much money. As a recent graduate, I'd be far more concerned about building up long-term equity than about making quick cash. I expect that your student debt must feel like a massive burden, but relative to your career earning potential it's chump change. Think long term, think about what you can build up for yourself.
I'm just a clueless civvie, but it seems to me that the insurgency in Iraq is becoming more indiscriminate and that the risks to all westerners there are largely similar, regardless of what they are there to do. IEDs and mortars don't distinguish between military and civilian targets. The kidnapper actively seek out civilians.
Other posters with far more relevant experience than I seem to think that you won't really have any contact with the locals and spend most of your time doing grunt work, so it doesn't seem to me like there are many intangible benefits beyond being able to say that you've worked in a warzone. If you want a great cultural experience, surely you'd be better off going to places where you don't have to travel in a convoy of armoured cars? Travel is tremendously cheap at the moment and there are plenty of opportunities to work your way around, especially as a young, educated American - half the world is willing to offer you a Working Holiday visa. If you don't fancy teaching English, tending a bar or picking fruit, you could tote a laptop and freelance.
Think about longer-term earning potential. What would you learn in Iraq that would make you attractive to civilian employers? What opportunities would that entry on your CV open up? What would be the value of a year's experience as a junior developer at a bank, for instance?
If you're typical of the average HN reader, you could do far better. I can't begin to estimate the value created by the average startup founder in their first year, but I'm guessing that it's a hell of a lot more than $200k. It's never been cheaper to startup and never easier to reach ramen profitability. There's never been more angel money and never more VCs willing to make small, early-stage investments.
The opportunity you have strikes me as a boring, dangerous dead-end for not very much money. As a recent graduate, I'd be far more concerned about building up long-term equity than about making quick cash. I expect that your student debt must feel like a massive burden, but relative to your career earning potential it's chump change. Think long term, think about what you can build up for yourself.
I'd certainly consider it if I didn't have a wife with her own career here in Australia. If I had a student loan to pay off I'd be even keener.
One suggestion though: get a little bit of training in first (maybe from Suarez International or a similar organisation).
I don't mean high-speed low-drag gunslinging ninja stuff (although their vehicle gunfighting course _does_ look like fun). What I mean is advice on how to keep yourself safe in a foreign, hostile environment. Precautions to take, places to go and not to go ... that sort of thing.
One suggestion though: get a little bit of training in first (maybe from Suarez International or a similar organisation).
I don't mean high-speed low-drag gunslinging ninja stuff (although their vehicle gunfighting course _does_ look like fun). What I mean is advice on how to keep yourself safe in a foreign, hostile environment. Precautions to take, places to go and not to go ... that sort of thing.
You can make $150 an hour doing software consulting in San Francisco. Thats 240k a year assuming you can bill 40 full weeks a year.
This thread is making me feel very poor.
to be fair, in San Fransisco its not going to go as far as it would in other parts of the country.
No, but the absolute amount that you clear is still way more.
$240k in SF would mean :
$20k/year in rent for a 1-bedroom apartment $19k/year in California state taxes $110k/year in Federal taxes --- $91k for hookers and blow
$200k in Iraq would mean: - $53k/year in Federal taxes - $0/year in state taxes - $0/year in housing charges -------------- $147k to spend on hookers and blow
At the end of the year, Iraq would give you an extra $56k to spend on 8-balls and being a VIP at the Emperor's club.
$20k/year in rent for a 1-bedroom apartment $19k/year in California state taxes $110k/year in Federal taxes --- $91k for hookers and blow
$200k in Iraq would mean: - $53k/year in Federal taxes - $0/year in state taxes - $0/year in housing charges -------------- $147k to spend on hookers and blow
At the end of the year, Iraq would give you an extra $56k to spend on 8-balls and being a VIP at the Emperor's club.
That's quite an assumption. 1,000-1,200 billable hours per year tends to be more the norm.
In the wise words of Marilyn Monroe, "Ever notice that 'what the hell' is always the right decision?"
US coder gets sent to the middle east for a bunch of money
Reminds me of Ken Follett's 'On Wings of Eagles' - definitely a recommendation if you're into thrillers! It's about a team of coders from EDS (now part of HP I think) who get sent to Iran to work for the government and are then refused to leave the country.
Reminds me of Ken Follett's 'On Wings of Eagles' - definitely a recommendation if you're into thrillers! It's about a team of coders from EDS (now part of HP I think) who get sent to Iran to work for the government and are then refused to leave the country.
IMO, 200k doesn't set you up for life, so it's not worth your life. One year is quite a long time and things _will_ go wrong.
It depends on the job.
I don't have any problem going to a non luxurious part of the world thats inhospitable. Not even for an extended period of time.
The only thing that would keep me from going are my 'opinions' about middle east foreign policy.
If its a good opportunity don't not go because you're scared.
If you got a good thing going where you're at, no sense in leaving either. Your call.
I don't have any problem going to a non luxurious part of the world thats inhospitable. Not even for an extended period of time.
The only thing that would keep me from going are my 'opinions' about middle east foreign policy.
If its a good opportunity don't not go because you're scared.
If you got a good thing going where you're at, no sense in leaving either. Your call.
After reading this thread, I'm just amazed how out of touch with reality a lot of the people here seem. Iraq is a war zone, one of the most dangerous places on the planet. Going there to experience the culture or the people is just absurd. There's a reason why you'll make relatively much money. And it's not because it's an awesome experience while you're there. Just the fact of being confined to a military base for a year is going to affect your life tremendously.
I would (got to Iraq for 200k a year), but then I am not American and so the Iraqis probably don't hate me as much. OTOH if I am working with the American Occupation, my nationality is probably a moot point for the Iraqi aiming a gun at me.
would you sell your life for 200k?
Dear God no.
I know this is sort of off topic, but I am a coder out of the Washington, DC area and I am about to be offered a job to go to IRAQ for 1 year at a pay of around $200k.
I am wondering, if offered, should I actually take it? I enjoy my job here and have actually just been transferred here about 4 months ago.
200k is a lot of money, I would be able to pay off all my student loans which equals about 80k and have some left over to invest in and maybe take another year off for setting up my own software project. I would also take the time off there to code and really focus on a project or two that I always wanted to get off the ground.
On another note, I truly live to experience. I love new experiences and this would truly be a once in a lifetime experience, so do I do it?
I can be debt free and sit and code hard for 1 year and push out something amazing also while enjoying the time in a greatly different country than what I am used to.
I do appreciate the responses!