No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-20/is-a-glass-of-wine-a-day-good-for-me-heart-federation-says-no
949 comments
https://archive.is/0vqdW
I am fine with abstinence as a general recommendation, but critical thinking pointed out two issues with the WHF Policy Brief, which I suppose I have read in sufficient depth:
1. There is no citation on the sentence, "Recent evidence has found that no level of alcohol consumption is safe for health." This is really the only line we are interested in.
2. There is no comparison on the effects of alcohol on the body by dosage (and frequency), which is, again, what is required from the brief to make that claim.
Again, while I don't necessarily disagree with what's in the report, and that it is already established that drinking too much is not good for the heart, considering many otherwise toxic substances have a hormetic zone, it is critical that a study like this rules out the its existence for ethanol.
1. There is no citation on the sentence, "Recent evidence has found that no level of alcohol consumption is safe for health." This is really the only line we are interested in.
2. There is no comparison on the effects of alcohol on the body by dosage (and frequency), which is, again, what is required from the brief to make that claim.
Again, while I don't necessarily disagree with what's in the report, and that it is already established that drinking too much is not good for the heart, considering many otherwise toxic substances have a hormetic zone, it is critical that a study like this rules out the its existence for ethanol.
For everyone complaining about evidence citation, this is just a press release. The actual brief which includes 41 citations is here: https://world-heart-federation.org/wp-content/uploads/WHF-Po...
Although I live in a place where weed is legal, I don’t use it. I enjoy the occasional glass of a nice scotch, though, and I love a good stout or porter beer. This is where it gets a little strange for me: by every metric I can think of, I’d be better off replacing alcohol with weed. There seem to be fewer negative effects, it’s not a source of empty calories, and looks like a better recreational drug in every way.
And still, growing up with “Just Say No”, I can’t quite bring myself to. In the back of my mind, a little voice asks if that’s the example I want to set for my kids, which is silly when they’ve seen me (responsibly) using alcohol for years. I just can’t imagine using a vape or popping an edible in the same way I might pour a little glass of whisky before settling down for the evening.
And still, growing up with “Just Say No”, I can’t quite bring myself to. In the back of my mind, a little voice asks if that’s the example I want to set for my kids, which is silly when they’ve seen me (responsibly) using alcohol for years. I just can’t imagine using a vape or popping an edible in the same way I might pour a little glass of whisky before settling down for the evening.
My favourite quote on the matter:
But claiming there is no ‘safe’ level does not seem an argument for abstention. There is no safe level of driving, but government do not recommend that people avoid driving.
Come to think of it, there is no safe level of living, but nobody would recommend abstention.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/the-risks-of-alcohol-again-2...
I understand why they want to dispel the persistent myth that alcohol can be good for you, but do they have to do it by employing their own vacuous statements? Tell people what the extra risk of drinking a daily glass of wine is, then they can make their own mind up on whether to take that risk or not.
Such empty discourse absent of falsifiable statements is more damaging to our society than a glass of wine ever could be.
But claiming there is no ‘safe’ level does not seem an argument for abstention. There is no safe level of driving, but government do not recommend that people avoid driving.
Come to think of it, there is no safe level of living, but nobody would recommend abstention.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/the-risks-of-alcohol-again-2...
I understand why they want to dispel the persistent myth that alcohol can be good for you, but do they have to do it by employing their own vacuous statements? Tell people what the extra risk of drinking a daily glass of wine is, then they can make their own mind up on whether to take that risk or not.
Such empty discourse absent of falsifiable statements is more damaging to our society than a glass of wine ever could be.
Don't worry, in 5-10 years it will be good for you again.
I still remember being lectured in school on the food pyramid and the importance of getting your 8-10 servings of grains a day.
I still remember being lectured in school on the food pyramid and the importance of getting your 8-10 servings of grains a day.
In this thread: a lot of people trying to justify their preexisting choice to drink or remain sober.
Question one: what is the world heart federation? I have never heard of it before today.
Two:
> The evidence is clear: any level of alcohol consumption can lead to loss of healthy life.
The evidence is not clear. There are plenty of studies showing benefits. “Any level” “can” makes the statement technically true but meaningless, you could replace alcohol with anything and that would also be true. If you want to back up the statement, do a meta analysis study and publish that instead of pretending you’re the authority and giving vague statements.
This reads like somebody with a prejudged conclusion announcing that instead of actual scientific openmindedness. Plenty of people in the comments who already agreed are eating it up.
How could anybody who didn’t already agree with this be convinced, their argument boils down to “we say the studies conclude this” which is trivial to refute.
Two:
> The evidence is clear: any level of alcohol consumption can lead to loss of healthy life.
The evidence is not clear. There are plenty of studies showing benefits. “Any level” “can” makes the statement technically true but meaningless, you could replace alcohol with anything and that would also be true. If you want to back up the statement, do a meta analysis study and publish that instead of pretending you’re the authority and giving vague statements.
This reads like somebody with a prejudged conclusion announcing that instead of actual scientific openmindedness. Plenty of people in the comments who already agreed are eating it up.
How could anybody who didn’t already agree with this be convinced, their argument boils down to “we say the studies conclude this” which is trivial to refute.
You know what's worse than drinking alcohol? Sitting in a chair all day staring at a screen.
Why do we need studies for things we've known for centuries? Drink, eat, exercise, all in moderation. Get outside and move often as possible. It's not rocket science.
Why do we need studies for things we've known for centuries? Drink, eat, exercise, all in moderation. Get outside and move often as possible. It's not rocket science.
"No amount of alcohol is safe, however it's the dose that makes the poison." [1]
"for every 100,000 people who consume one drink per day, 918 will have an alcohol-related problem per year. But if the same 100,000 people drank nothing at all, 914 would still have one of those same problems. That’s only 4 more people per year (per 100,000) who will have a problem that’s attributable to alcohol—that’s tiny. But it’s also not zero." [2]
[1] https://peterattiamd.com/qualy-1-what-are-peters-thoughts-on...
[2] https://www.popsci.com/moderate-drinking-benefits-risks/#pag...
"for every 100,000 people who consume one drink per day, 918 will have an alcohol-related problem per year. But if the same 100,000 people drank nothing at all, 914 would still have one of those same problems. That’s only 4 more people per year (per 100,000) who will have a problem that’s attributable to alcohol—that’s tiny. But it’s also not zero." [2]
[1] https://peterattiamd.com/qualy-1-what-are-peters-thoughts-on...
[2] https://www.popsci.com/moderate-drinking-benefits-risks/#pag...
I agree with solox3 about the need to cite the evidence, not just say "studies show."
That said, my doctor asked how much I drank, and I said about four drinks a week. She said "that's too much." So now I have a pretty strict limit of two per week, and "a glass of wine with dinner" does count towards that. I think she was more in tune with ALL the evidence, not just the articles that tell everyone what they want to hear.
People really don't like to hear that two-per-week thing. The beer or glass of wine with friends is a pretty important part of society. In fact, I really think you only live once, and what's the point if you never have the things you really love? But don't delude yourself that it's healthy; it's not.
That said: I lost a brother to alcohol & cigarettes, so it's a little more personal with me.
That said, my doctor asked how much I drank, and I said about four drinks a week. She said "that's too much." So now I have a pretty strict limit of two per week, and "a glass of wine with dinner" does count towards that. I think she was more in tune with ALL the evidence, not just the articles that tell everyone what they want to hear.
People really don't like to hear that two-per-week thing. The beer or glass of wine with friends is a pretty important part of society. In fact, I really think you only live once, and what's the point if you never have the things you really love? But don't delude yourself that it's healthy; it's not.
That said: I lost a brother to alcohol & cigarettes, so it's a little more personal with me.
The article seems to cherry pick official statements to support the title.
"Studies have shown that even small amounts of alcohol can increase a person's risk of cardiovascular disease, including coronary disease, stroke, heart failure, hypertensive heart disease, cardiomyopathy (heart muscle disease), atrial fibrillation (irregular heartbeat), and aneurysm.
"To date, no reliable correlation has been found between moderate alcohol consumption and a lower risk of heart disease."
"Studies that claim otherwise are based on purely observational research, which fails to account for other factors, such as pre-existing conditions and a history of alcoholism in those considered to be 'abstinent'.
So they claim their research shows increased risk, not stating by how much - there is difference between 0.5% and 15% and 50%, across a broad range of conditions. The only counterpoint mentioned is that there is no reliable correlation between moderate (no mention of what that is) consumption and lower risk of heart disease - what about all the other conditions? Finally there is a quote dismissing other research because it fails to account for other factor but there is hardly any mention on what factors have been accounted for in the current research.
The whole thing seems poorly written and seems to preach instead of document and explain.
Consumption of any substance in sufficient quantities will cause harm - you can drown by drinking too much water in too short of a period of time but no one is going to suggest that because of that there isn't any quantity of water is safe to consume.
So they claim their research shows increased risk, not stating by how much - there is difference between 0.5% and 15% and 50%, across a broad range of conditions. The only counterpoint mentioned is that there is no reliable correlation between moderate (no mention of what that is) consumption and lower risk of heart disease - what about all the other conditions? Finally there is a quote dismissing other research because it fails to account for other factor but there is hardly any mention on what factors have been accounted for in the current research.
The whole thing seems poorly written and seems to preach instead of document and explain.
Consumption of any substance in sufficient quantities will cause harm - you can drown by drinking too much water in too short of a period of time but no one is going to suggest that because of that there isn't any quantity of water is safe to consume.
Everything is a balance though, isn't it?
If a little alcohol reduces one's stress and increases socialization, then they may be better off with the alcohol on net.
If a little alcohol reduces one's stress and increases socialization, then they may be better off with the alcohol on net.
The problem with articles like this is that they lack context on the relative risks of various activities. Is drinking a daily glass of wine more or less bad for your heart than skipping your daily aerobic exercise? Surely we can put some numbers on that.
Before talking about what amounts are good or bad, the cultural phenomenon of drinking has always been mysterious to me. Alcohol feels overrated. It seems like no more than symbolic association with social life, or celebration. I love socializing and celebrating, but when I want to seize the moment, I want sharp senses - not the opposite. Also, I find it not tasty honestly.
I trust people to like having me as their company even when not participating in drinking.
I trust people to like having me as their company even when not participating in drinking.
They're focused on heart health so they don't address the fact that alcohol is also a carcinogen. This is sort of a "The sky is falling!" kind of article, but it comes down to, as always: Be aware of the risks in some intuitive way and decide what you want to do.
I saved this article from a similar discussion a few years ago, which argues that moderate drinking (but not binge drinking) is healthy in various ways. Does anyone know if it, or the underlying data it refers to, has been refuted?
https://psmag.com/social-justice/truth-wont-admit-drinking-h...
https://psmag.com/social-justice/truth-wont-admit-drinking-h...
Heineken and Carlsberg paid NIH $100 million to "to show that moderate alcohol consumption is safe and lowers risk of common diseases". This and other ethical research violations created the whole "moderate amount of alcohol may be healthy" meme.
The alcohol industry gave the government money to prove moderate drinking is safe https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/21/17139036/he...
Alcohol industry involvement in science: A systematic review of the perspectives of the alcohol research community https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6055701/
The alcohol industry gave the government money to prove moderate drinking is safe https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/21/17139036/he...
Alcohol industry involvement in science: A systematic review of the perspectives of the alcohol research community https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6055701/
I feel like alcohol consumption isn't taken as seriously since its been legalized, but its incredibly destructive. The only thing I've really seen get talked about is driving while drinking.
This hits very close to home to me because I am currently taking care of our kids while my wife had to fly across the USA to help with her Uncle's funeral. He was a high functioning alcoholic for many years until he joined AA and cleaned up. He was a very active member of AA and lead his local chapter. He had just come to visit for the holidays and passed a week and half later from a heart attack.
My mother's side of the family came from a long line of abusive alcoholics, and she was the first to break the cycle. So I made the personal choice to not even try it to keep it going. Sometime I do wonder if I'm missing out, but I don't want to take the risk of getting addicted.
This hits very close to home to me because I am currently taking care of our kids while my wife had to fly across the USA to help with her Uncle's funeral. He was a high functioning alcoholic for many years until he joined AA and cleaned up. He was a very active member of AA and lead his local chapter. He had just come to visit for the holidays and passed a week and half later from a heart attack.
My mother's side of the family came from a long line of abusive alcoholics, and she was the first to break the cycle. So I made the personal choice to not even try it to keep it going. Sometime I do wonder if I'm missing out, but I don't want to take the risk of getting addicted.
I think most people know this on some level. Alcohol cannot be good for the body. However, society encourages and even shames people that don't drink to an extreme degree that people go with the herd on this. Its going to be impossible to beat and turn around that societal pressure and acceptance.
Who thought that Alcohol is actually good for the heart? Here is the good news: It won't either kill your healthy heart if you don't abuse it
I've completely cut my drinking down to "only on holidays where I'm expected to", and even then I don't get "drunk".
While I never got to a point of drinking where anyone would call it a "problem", I realized that any amount of alcohol probably isn't great for my depression, and I also realized that I actually didn't enjoy being drunk all that much.
I don't really miss it much, though it was a little difficult to quit cold turkey a few years ago when I did it.
While I never got to a point of drinking where anyone would call it a "problem", I realized that any amount of alcohol probably isn't great for my depression, and I also realized that I actually didn't enjoy being drunk all that much.
I don't really miss it much, though it was a little difficult to quit cold turkey a few years ago when I did it.
A fitbit helped me discover how terrible alcohol is for your heart. I could clearly see which days I would have a drink because my average resting heart rate would go from 63-65 to 77-80!
I wish this info was more well known. My family still labors under the old info of thinking a little of that poison is healthy. And I have watched that be incorrect.
> The Eurasian Economic Union’s technical regulation
mandates provision of an ingredients list, health
information, and an additional message of
“recommendatory nature” to be put on all types of
alcoholic beverages intended for human use.
Eurasian Economic Union?
Have I slipped down the wrong trousers of time?
Eurasian Economic Union?
Have I slipped down the wrong trousers of time?
Honestly. So what. Human beings have lived with alcohol during all of civilization. If it’s bad for me…so be it. Not rationalizing or endorsing just saying maybe a little recklessness is bad for the individual and good for the species.
Can anyone find any research in the citations that my glass of red wine in the evening - although it may increase atherosclerosis and have other health implications - doesn't have benefits that offset the drawbacks.
https://world-heart-federation.org/wp-content/uploads/WHF-Po...
How much do the social, relaxation, and stress relief benefit my health. In the same way that taking a walk in a polluted city has pros and cons or the enjoyment someone might get from sky diving or taking up motorcycling.
https://world-heart-federation.org/wp-content/uploads/WHF-Po...
How much do the social, relaxation, and stress relief benefit my health. In the same way that taking a walk in a polluted city has pros and cons or the enjoyment someone might get from sky diving or taking up motorcycling.
Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent.
While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.
While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.
> The evidence is clear: any level of alcohol consumption can lead to loss of healthy life.
No it isn't. The studies change on this constantly. Literally, it is why they are making their policy- because its confusing to people.
They also need to conduct a longitudinal study (or more than 1) to prove this... and guess what? They won't do it.
No it isn't. The studies change on this constantly. Literally, it is why they are making their policy- because its confusing to people.
They also need to conduct a longitudinal study (or more than 1) to prove this... and guess what? They won't do it.
One more of these huh? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7l2hUp0CkQ