U.S. is said to open criminal inquiry into Boeing(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
U.S. is said to open criminal inquiry into Boeing
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/09/business/boeing-criminal-inquiry-alaska-airlines-flight.html
544 comments
https://archive.ph/VsQDn
This article, along with other articles I’ve seen about this, talk about the door plug being “opened”. This brings to mind an interesting comment from a few days ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39624602
You can “open” and “close” a door without documenting it. If you “remove” a piece of an airplane, you document it.
So perhaps a part of Boeing’s error is that they think about “opening” a door plug but they did not design it such that it could be safely “opened” and “closed” without special care.
As I understand it, the door plug is indeed an awkward in-the-middle design in that you can remove four bolts and do something resembling “opening” it without fully removing it. But if you open a door, the plane has better alert the pilots if you try to fly the plane without properly closing the door, and the plug has no such feature.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39624602
You can “open” and “close” a door without documenting it. If you “remove” a piece of an airplane, you document it.
So perhaps a part of Boeing’s error is that they think about “opening” a door plug but they did not design it such that it could be safely “opened” and “closed” without special care.
As I understand it, the door plug is indeed an awkward in-the-middle design in that you can remove four bolts and do something resembling “opening” it without fully removing it. But if you open a door, the plane has better alert the pilots if you try to fly the plane without properly closing the door, and the plug has no such feature.
Does this "we can't find the documentation" match what the whistleblower was saying in Jan?
https://viewfromthewing.com/boeing-whistleblower-production-...
It doesn't really seem like it?
https://viewfromthewing.com/boeing-whistleblower-production-...
It doesn't really seem like it?
Interesting article about the espoused cultural signaling by Boeing's C-Suite: https://www.talentcanary.com/2024/02/unpacking-boeings-cultu...
As they should.
I said somewhat unpopularly at the time that this is not an incident that should meet with curious blameless fact finding but instead the many responsible parties need to be stomped for negligence by the legal system.
Boeing’s board needs to be fired and some executives probably need jail time. Given the defense position of Boeing, the executive branch should probably take some direct action outside the judicial system once there are some more clear cause and effect facts about what’s going on at Boeing.
I said somewhat unpopularly at the time that this is not an incident that should meet with curious blameless fact finding but instead the many responsible parties need to be stomped for negligence by the legal system.
Boeing’s board needs to be fired and some executives probably need jail time. Given the defense position of Boeing, the executive branch should probably take some direct action outside the judicial system once there are some more clear cause and effect facts about what’s going on at Boeing.
Good, it's only out of sheer luck that nobody was sitting close enough to get sucked out mid-flight. On a full flight people would have died.
Will the CEO be held liable? Will their yearly multi-million dollar bonuses be taken?
In cases where archive.ph is blocked:
https://web.archive.org/web/20240309232411if_/https://www.ny...
https://web.archive.org/web/20240309232411if_/https://www.ny...
I’m about to fly on a Max-8 airplane in the next 2 hours. I can’t help but be very nervous about the fact that we are still unclear on what exactly happened.
This feels very much like the MCAS situation. They spun their wheels for months after the initial crash. And another tragic crashed happened due to the same issue.
Come on. Someone somewhere at Boeing knows exactly what happened. Even if they don’t want to reveal this, it’s not even clear to me if they now have better QC procedures to catch these kinds of issues.
This feels very much like the MCAS situation. They spun their wheels for months after the initial crash. And another tragic crashed happened due to the same issue.
Come on. Someone somewhere at Boeing knows exactly what happened. Even if they don’t want to reveal this, it’s not even clear to me if they now have better QC procedures to catch these kinds of issues.
There was a small segment on Boeing recently and the industry as a whole on John Oliver’s show. Boeing being the main issue and how this company has repeatedly shit the bed multiple times since the takeover and shift of HQ to Chicago.
But one of the interesting facts I learned: the FAA has “regulators” that are paid by the airline industry themselves. This is largely due to how inexperienced the FAA is with the manufacturing process and thus rely on the industry to self-regulate.
Someone may raise an issue on the ground floor of these airline manufacturers. But the complaints are sent to people paid for by the airline manufacturers.
The conflict of interest is high. Yet FAA thinks this is okay.
But one of the interesting facts I learned: the FAA has “regulators” that are paid by the airline industry themselves. This is largely due to how inexperienced the FAA is with the manufacturing process and thus rely on the industry to self-regulate.
Someone may raise an issue on the ground floor of these airline manufacturers. But the complaints are sent to people paid for by the airline manufacturers.
The conflict of interest is high. Yet FAA thinks this is okay.
CEOs often talk about accountability. Would this extend to Dave Calhoun going to prison?
This is accountability theater because of institutional US government support and dependency on Boeing as a strategic defense contractor for other divisions. After MCAS, they know they can't be touched.
I agree with the US administration. Something is fishy in Boeing, or the wrong people are being employed there.
Deferred prosecution worked as intended, i.e. no effect. This company is too big to fail. Some mid-level employee will be sacrificed to mollify DOJ, and business as usual will continue. Crapification of the economy continues...
John Oliver recently did an episode on the Boeing shitstorm. And while I would take anything a comedian says with a large grain of salt, the undercover staff interviews seemed pretty damning. I'm not sure if it's criminal negligence on Boeing's part, but it seems pretty obvious that engineering excellence isn't on the top of their minds.
[deleted]
Boeing's dismal track record has been years in the making and the problems we're seeing were inevitable. However, I'm not holding my breath here hoping for a real change. Boeing is a huge defence contractor with deep connections. I hope I'm mistaken but I doubt we'll see any real systemic change.
[deleted]
It’s quite mad isn’t it. Can you imagine running a company that makes aeroplanes and not going to sleep each night panicking about all the lives you’re ferrying around up in the sky?
It turns out there is a whole company of executives who are so not-worried about it that they’ll continuously cut budgets and decrease the time available to make those planes until multiple planes fall out the sky. And even then are still not really that worried about safety.
It turns out there is a whole company of executives who are so not-worried about it that they’ll continuously cut budgets and decrease the time available to make those planes until multiple planes fall out the sky. And even then are still not really that worried about safety.
I guess it all comes down to thinking outsourcing is magic. Get same thing done at 1/4th the cost with virtually no downside. Hopefully C suites get what they deserve or at least get fired.
But at any point do these consultants like at McKinseys, BCG, AT Kerney etc who advise these money saving tactics get what they deserve?
But at any point do these consultants like at McKinseys, BCG, AT Kerney etc who advise these money saving tactics get what they deserve?
[deleted]
The 737 MAX, stock trading senators, and bribe taking justices are all the same thing for the same reason.
Power is doing something and then saying "what are you going to do about it?"
The supreme court takes bribes and says "what are you going to do about it?" They clearly have the power to take bribes. Nobody appears to be able to do anything about it.
Congresspeople trade stocks of companies they regulate in a gross conflict of interest, then defend their ability to be corrupt as a right. "What are you going to do about it?" Congress clearly has the power to be openly corrupt without consequences.
The 2008 crisis was wall street telling the government that they have many answers to that question. "Too big to fail" was born to capture the idea that there is an entity so powerful there are no reasonable answers to them asking "what are you going to do about it?"
Boeing is too big to fail. Boeing knows that there is no one with the will or fortitude to do anything about putting profit over safety. Investigations to make it look like you're doing something, sure. Canning a few low level employees that you can pin blame on, no problem. Sacrifice a contractor? That's what they're there for. But to hold a CEO or shareholders responsible for gross mismanagement in any kind of meaningful way, threatening all other American oligarchs and hordes of people rich enough to say "what are you going to do about it?" without answer?
Admiral Rickover, the father of the nuclear navy, is the past's best answer to Boeing. He deeply understood the forces at play. He had this to say to congress:
Power is doing something and then saying "what are you going to do about it?"
The supreme court takes bribes and says "what are you going to do about it?" They clearly have the power to take bribes. Nobody appears to be able to do anything about it.
Congresspeople trade stocks of companies they regulate in a gross conflict of interest, then defend their ability to be corrupt as a right. "What are you going to do about it?" Congress clearly has the power to be openly corrupt without consequences.
The 2008 crisis was wall street telling the government that they have many answers to that question. "Too big to fail" was born to capture the idea that there is an entity so powerful there are no reasonable answers to them asking "what are you going to do about it?"
Boeing is too big to fail. Boeing knows that there is no one with the will or fortitude to do anything about putting profit over safety. Investigations to make it look like you're doing something, sure. Canning a few low level employees that you can pin blame on, no problem. Sacrifice a contractor? That's what they're there for. But to hold a CEO or shareholders responsible for gross mismanagement in any kind of meaningful way, threatening all other American oligarchs and hordes of people rich enough to say "what are you going to do about it?" without answer?
Admiral Rickover, the father of the nuclear navy, is the past's best answer to Boeing. He deeply understood the forces at play. He had this to say to congress:
Political and economic power is increasingly being concentrated among a few
large corporations and their officers - power they can apply against society,
government and individuals. Through their control of vast resources, these
large corporations have become, in effect, another branch of government. They
often exercise the power of government, but without the checks and balances
inherent in our democratic system.
The rot runs so much deeper than whichever scapegoats they want to pin it on. The story of Boeing is the story of modern American managerial culture. Excess all around. Excessive executive compensation. Excessive financialization. Excessive outsourcing. Excessive offshoring. Excessive returns to uneconomic activity. Excessive credentialism. Excessive lobbying.
Jack Welch is dead but if they wanted to try someone he’d be a great person to start with.
Jack Welch is dead but if they wanted to try someone he’d be a great person to start with.
Handy for Boeing if they can just stick it as a criminal act to some low level employees and case closed.
Inquiries won't help if they stop at Boeing, or contractors Boeing used. The problem here is much more fundamental to the regulatory bodies overseeing the airline industry and the dependence on a few companies that have become too big for the government to let fail.
As long as our government is beholden to large corporations, either through lobbying or the "too big to fail" card, we functionally have a fascist state where industry took over our government. I'm not saying we're all the way there by any means, but that's inevitable if we keep bandaiding problems without getting to the root cause.
As long as our government is beholden to large corporations, either through lobbying or the "too big to fail" card, we functionally have a fascist state where industry took over our government. I'm not saying we're all the way there by any means, but that's inevitable if we keep bandaiding problems without getting to the root cause.
I hate how far Boeing has fallen. The merger with McDonnell Douglas seems to have been a disaster of leadership. I'm sure that's not the only factor, but multiple articles I've read have pointed to that as the turning point.
For anyone interested in a brief summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URoVKPVDKPU
For anyone interested in a brief summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URoVKPVDKPU
Here’s hoping they pay for their cost-cutting crimes (yeah I know it’s not a crime per se but the efforts are putting people at undue risk, allegedly). And that it’s followed up by a civil case. And that the criminal case causes the board and management to change and the civil case somehow makes workers and victims whole.
Ordered list of reasons I don't believe anything worthwhile will happen:
1. Boeing is a huge defence contractor with both civil and military products sold worldwide. A big loss to Boeing will be seen as a big loss to American hegemony.
2. GOTO 1
1. Boeing is a huge defence contractor with both civil and military products sold worldwide. A big loss to Boeing will be seen as a big loss to American hegemony.
2. GOTO 1
Go after the executives and management who made the decisions.