On Geeks and Gays(newstilt.com)
newstilt.com
On Geeks and Gays
http://newstilt.com/notthatkindofdoctor/news/on-geeks-and-gays
15 comments
Likewise. I think that JGC's campaign (a) shows us what it really means to be without prejudice; and (b) reveals that others in the business of civil rights persist in viewing the world through those same old goggles.
That said, I think that JGC breaks from this in the essay. He says:
as a geek I empathized with the idea that being different from some societal norm brings enormous pain.
To me, that destroys, at least partially, the idea of a completely independent bystander fighting for truth. It brings us, at least partly, back to someone campaigning for a fellow in his own group -- it's just that the dimension JGC chose to sort by is different from the one that most of society would choose.
I wish John had simply said because Alan Turing’s treatment was wrong and left it at that.
That said, I think that JGC breaks from this in the essay. He says:
as a geek I empathized with the idea that being different from some societal norm brings enormous pain.
To me, that destroys, at least partially, the idea of a completely independent bystander fighting for truth. It brings us, at least partly, back to someone campaigning for a fellow in his own group -- it's just that the dimension JGC chose to sort by is different from the one that most of society would choose.
I wish John had simply said because Alan Turing’s treatment was wrong and left it at that.
A thought: Alan Turing died when he was 41. Anything Turing would have invented between 41 and his natural death are things lost to society because of the persecution of homosexuals. What an incredible cost.
Although I agree with you that Turing's death was an incredible loss, I wouldn't be so sure he would have died a natural death.
Turing had considered suicide before, during his failed work on the Riemann hypothesis. At that time, he schemed up a suicide mechanism involving an apple and electrical wiring which he described in a letter to an old boyfriend.
Turing was pretty eccentric, romanticized suicide (and was a little obsessed with this apple idea), and was in and out of depression.
Mind you, I agree. I'm just not so sure Turing ever would have died naturally.
Turing had considered suicide before, during his failed work on the Riemann hypothesis. At that time, he schemed up a suicide mechanism involving an apple and electrical wiring which he described in a letter to an old boyfriend.
Turing was pretty eccentric, romanticized suicide (and was a little obsessed with this apple idea), and was in and out of depression.
Mind you, I agree. I'm just not so sure Turing ever would have died naturally.
He uh... also tried to poison his PhD advisor.
You make it sound like he was murdered because he was gay. I don't think it was quite that clear cut.
I'm quite a believer in "if he hadn't done it, someone else would have" personally. I don't mean to belittle anyones contribution, but the idea that there's only one genius who can come up with something seems very unlikely to me.
Most inventions are 'discovered' by many people at around the same time.
I'm quite a believer in "if he hadn't done it, someone else would have" personally. I don't mean to belittle anyones contribution, but the idea that there's only one genius who can come up with something seems very unlikely to me.
Most inventions are 'discovered' by many people at around the same time.
Other people did do it, and even at nearly the exact same time. Turing just did it more convincingly. (See: Alonzo Church and the Lambda calculus).
> You make it sound like he was murdered because he was gay. I don't think it was quite that clear cut.
Lets turn it around then. If he hadn't been gay, would he have been murdered?
> Most inventions are 'discovered' by many people at around the same time.
Yeah, this is true. Even revolutionary ideas seem to show up at multiple places at the same time. So it seems that the state of knowledge at the time of invention matters a great deal.
Lets turn it around then. If he hadn't been gay, would he have been murdered?
> Most inventions are 'discovered' by many people at around the same time.
Yeah, this is true. Even revolutionary ideas seem to show up at multiple places at the same time. So it seems that the state of knowledge at the time of invention matters a great deal.
>If he hadn't been gay, would he have been murdered?
He committed suicide.
He committed suicide.
Anyone who has ever discovered anything surely knows this? The world is full of curious minds. This doesn't belittle this individual curious mind but honour the millions of others.
What if he'd just been an ordinary guy? I think the damage to his life and the lives of those who knew him is more important than what he would have invented.
Just to be clear, subjecting someone of lesser brilliance (99.9999999% of the population) to Turing's treatment would be equally immoral. Seriously destabilizing a suicidal person is murder and on a moral level I don't believe in claiming that a particular murder is more or less immoral than another. Murder is murder and I don't think you can compare magnitudes. So if he had been an ordinary guy, his murder would still have been wrong on a moral level. I'm simply arguing that in addition to the usual costs of murder (felt in large part by the deceased family), society has borne an additional cost.
Doesn't murder require intent? Are you saying that the government planned on destabili+ng him in order to make him commit suicide? Am I just thinking of murder 1?
I was using murder in a colloquial sense, not a legal one. I'm pretty sure in England the legal term for what was done to Turing is constructive manslaughter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_in_English_law#Unl...). But IANAL.
>I'm pretty sure in England the legal term for what was done to Turing is constructive manslaughter.
The legal term would be something like "proper application of criminal law". You can't claim that it was constructive manslaughter to apply the law at the time.
The legal term would be something like "proper application of criminal law". You can't claim that it was constructive manslaughter to apply the law at the time.
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That doesn't seem obvious to me. Inventions can change many lives, but the scope of a person's social life is necessarily limited. Why do you say that?
I don't think any amount of human suffering is really worth some perceived progress. Not only because the progress will likely come around eventually anyway if it's for the better, but if we're trying to better humankind we shouldn't start by harming even a single human.
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I've always assumed that Turing was bisexual, he certainly had a pretty intense relationship with his fiancee. I can't really understand how, if he was an openly gay man (as I've seen claimed) that he needed to make the confession that he did to his fiancee who he spent his leisure time and work time with; how is she couldn't know but everyone else did?
He also appeared to be an ephebophile. I have a hypothesis that his sexual liaisons with teenagers were an attempt to recapture his relationship with his (sole and very close) friend that died when he was at boarding school.
He also appeared to be an ephebophile. I have a hypothesis that his sexual liaisons with teenagers were an attempt to recapture his relationship with his (sole and very close) friend that died when he was at boarding school.
I didn't even know he was a homosexual. Nor does it matter.
I'd say that geeks tend to think about their environment a lot more than other people because geeks tend to think about systems in general.
I have never encountered a rational argument for homophobia. Gay people seem to me to be just as likely to be virtuous or decadent as straight people.
Discriminating against people for having a different sexual orientation seems totally irrational to me. As far as I'm concerned, 'gay rights' generally equate to 'human rights' and you can sign me up for supporting those any day.
I have never encountered a rational argument for homophobia. Gay people seem to me to be just as likely to be virtuous or decadent as straight people.
Discriminating against people for having a different sexual orientation seems totally irrational to me. As far as I'm concerned, 'gay rights' generally equate to 'human rights' and you can sign me up for supporting those any day.
I've always thought that [gay | labor | women's | black's | etc] rights all collapse to merely human rights, and find it curious that we see the need to carve it up in a whole bunch of special cases.
Where, exactly, do you draw the line? Do you want tolerance or support?
Gay: Suppose the "gay germ theory"[1] is correct. To allow vaccination/prophylaxis or not?
Labor: Freedom to legally organise is to me utterly unobjectionable, but I remember picking up a book on trade unionism in the library once and being completely unable to grasp the sense behind one of the articles in which the authors took it as given that striking should not even in theory be grounds for firing. Striking is part of a negotiation, it's a tool in the dance of "How shall we divide the money that is earned as a result of my employment between empolyer and employee?"
Where is the "right" place between freedom to organise + at-will employment, and a system like France, where unions "represent" workers in their economic sector who aren't members and get legally binding regulations, or like Germany's, where union representatives are always on the board, with voting positions?
Women's: Women make less than men on average. They also make very different choices of what jobs to work in, how many hours to work, and they are much more likely to have interruptions in their career. Given the second, is the first unjust, especially if the difference when you compare like with like is small?
Black's: Affirmative action here
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_theory_of_homosexual...
Gay: Suppose the "gay germ theory"[1] is correct. To allow vaccination/prophylaxis or not?
Labor: Freedom to legally organise is to me utterly unobjectionable, but I remember picking up a book on trade unionism in the library once and being completely unable to grasp the sense behind one of the articles in which the authors took it as given that striking should not even in theory be grounds for firing. Striking is part of a negotiation, it's a tool in the dance of "How shall we divide the money that is earned as a result of my employment between empolyer and employee?"
Where is the "right" place between freedom to organise + at-will employment, and a system like France, where unions "represent" workers in their economic sector who aren't members and get legally binding regulations, or like Germany's, where union representatives are always on the board, with voting positions?
Women's: Women make less than men on average. They also make very different choices of what jobs to work in, how many hours to work, and they are much more likely to have interruptions in their career. Given the second, is the first unjust, especially if the difference when you compare like with like is small?
Black's: Affirmative action here
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_theory_of_homosexual...
Women's: Women make less than men on average. They also make very different choices of what jobs to work in, how many hours to work
The problem is not that women make less than men on average, they often make less than men when doing the exact same job, for the exact same hours.
and they are much more likely to have interruptions in their career.
Did you read the thread about job hoppers, where many men said that job hopping was a good thing because it was in their best interest?
The problem is not that women make less than men on average, they often make less than men when doing the exact same job, for the exact same hours.
and they are much more likely to have interruptions in their career.
Did you read the thread about job hoppers, where many men said that job hopping was a good thing because it was in their best interest?
The problem is not that women make less than men on average, they often make less than men when doing the exact same job, for the exact same hours.
Could you share any citations?
Thus far, when trying to research this issue, keep running into the well-debunked The 76 cents (or 72 cents or X cents) on the dollar myth that still enjoys popularity amongst feminists.
Unfortunately, that statistic simply compares the earnings of full-time workers with the same job category. It ignores the hours of work per week, experience, danger, and a host of other factors. It quite literally compares the salary of people with years of experience who are working 60 hours a week directly with new hires of the same job title who are working 40 hours a week. It lumps them all together.
Study after study I've seen which have actually controlled for factors such as experience, hours worked, travel required, etc have found very little pay disparity. This NCPA article is a brief explanation of The Wage Gap Myth:
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba392 http://www.iwf.org/campus/show/18948.html
The Cato institute and others have done more in depth analysis.
Could you share any citations?
Thus far, when trying to research this issue, keep running into the well-debunked The 76 cents (or 72 cents or X cents) on the dollar myth that still enjoys popularity amongst feminists.
Unfortunately, that statistic simply compares the earnings of full-time workers with the same job category. It ignores the hours of work per week, experience, danger, and a host of other factors. It quite literally compares the salary of people with years of experience who are working 60 hours a week directly with new hires of the same job title who are working 40 hours a week. It lumps them all together.
Study after study I've seen which have actually controlled for factors such as experience, hours worked, travel required, etc have found very little pay disparity. This NCPA article is a brief explanation of The Wage Gap Myth:
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba392 http://www.iwf.org/campus/show/18948.html
The Cato institute and others have done more in depth analysis.
Okay, let's go with the GAO: http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-04-35
Unless I'm horribly misreading the study, the claim a figure around 80 cents on the dollar after controlling for external factors, including hours worked, experience, and occupation. It's a lot worse before that.
Unless I'm horribly misreading the study, the claim a figure around 80 cents on the dollar after controlling for external factors, including hours worked, experience, and occupation. It's a lot worse before that.
Did you even read the report? Pages 11-14 deal with factors not controlled for and the summary of the report was this:
In conclusion, while we were able to account for much of the difference in earnings between men and women, we were not able to explain the remaining earnings difference. It is difficult to evaluate this remaining portion without a full understanding of what contributes to this difference. Specifically, an earnings difference that results from individuals’ decisions about how to manage work and family responsibilities may not necessarily indicate a problem unless these decisions are not freely made. On the other hand, an earnings difference may result from discrimination in the workplace or subtler discrimination about what types of career or job choices women can make. Nonetheless, it is difficult, and in some cases, may be impossible, to precisely measure and quantify individual decisions and possible discrimination. Because these factors are not readily measurable, interpreting any remaining earnings difference is problematic.
This was a meta study that looked at data up to the mid-90s. Essentially the conclusion was that not everything can be explained through simply dividing by hours worked, but there are a variety of possible explanations including both discrimination, career choice and work/family balance.
In conclusion, while we were able to account for much of the difference in earnings between men and women, we were not able to explain the remaining earnings difference. It is difficult to evaluate this remaining portion without a full understanding of what contributes to this difference. Specifically, an earnings difference that results from individuals’ decisions about how to manage work and family responsibilities may not necessarily indicate a problem unless these decisions are not freely made. On the other hand, an earnings difference may result from discrimination in the workplace or subtler discrimination about what types of career or job choices women can make. Nonetheless, it is difficult, and in some cases, may be impossible, to precisely measure and quantify individual decisions and possible discrimination. Because these factors are not readily measurable, interpreting any remaining earnings difference is problematic.
This was a meta study that looked at data up to the mid-90s. Essentially the conclusion was that not everything can be explained through simply dividing by hours worked, but there are a variety of possible explanations including both discrimination, career choice and work/family balance.
Come on. You can take issue with the methodology of the study, but at least have a little basic respect.
Essentially the conclusion was that not everything can be explained through simply dividing by hours worked,
Which is exactly what you'd expect if there were a pay gap.
but there are a variety of possible explanations including both discrimination, career choice and work/family balance.
Fair enough, there are multiple causes. But if you look at the factors they account for (and which therefore fail to explain the missing 20 cents on the dollar, see pages 2 and 9), many of them are closely tied to work/family balance and career choices: experience, occupation, marital status, hours worked per year, etc. Few, if any, are proxies for discrimination or other social phenomena out of any particular woman's immediate control.
Essentially the conclusion was that not everything can be explained through simply dividing by hours worked,
Which is exactly what you'd expect if there were a pay gap.
but there are a variety of possible explanations including both discrimination, career choice and work/family balance.
Fair enough, there are multiple causes. But if you look at the factors they account for (and which therefore fail to explain the missing 20 cents on the dollar, see pages 2 and 9), many of them are closely tied to work/family balance and career choices: experience, occupation, marital status, hours worked per year, etc. Few, if any, are proxies for discrimination or other social phenomena out of any particular woman's immediate control.
The problem is not that women make less than men on average, they often make less than men when doing the exact same job, for the exact same hours.
I am really suspicious of this, because it simply doesn't match my own experience. I've worked behind a bar, I've been a lifeguard, I've done a few jobs in hi-tech and equality is the norm.
Here in the UK the Office of National Statistics ripped apart Harriet Harman's figures on unequal pay... Turned out to get the political outcome she wanted, she was comparing the pay of female part-time workers to that of male full-time workers.
Incidentally, 80% of those working more than 50 hrs/week are male, and 98% of those killed at work are male.
I am really suspicious of this, because it simply doesn't match my own experience. I've worked behind a bar, I've been a lifeguard, I've done a few jobs in hi-tech and equality is the norm.
Here in the UK the Office of National Statistics ripped apart Harriet Harman's figures on unequal pay... Turned out to get the political outcome she wanted, she was comparing the pay of female part-time workers to that of male full-time workers.
Incidentally, 80% of those working more than 50 hrs/week are male, and 98% of those killed at work are male.
Well, it does matches my experience. When I had relatively simple jobs like working behind a bar, there was no inequality, but in IT there was. Sometimes it was disguised. Men who did the exact same work as women had a different title, so they earned more because technically they had a different role.
Dutch research indicated that a big part of the 20% difference is because of the choices women make (though of course, it is still open for debate whether those choices are always true choices), but even accounting for that there was still a 7% difference that couldn't be explained (of course they also accounted for hours worked). This is a Dutch page with lots of info http://www.loonwijzer.nl/home/vrouwenloonwijzer/beloningsver...
It does say that the Netherlands is a bit worse than other European countries.
Also: I think some technical explanatins as to why it is "logical" that women earn less are nonsense. It makes no sense to penalize a women because she had two babies six and four years ago and therefore was out of the workplace for a few months if there is no objective difference in quality of work today.
I don't think danger has anything to do with pay. If it did, firefighters would earn a lot more than IT consultants. I also don't think responsibility has anything to do with it. If it did daycare workers would earn a lot more than programmers.
And I have never met a regular employee who honestly worked more than 50/hrs a week (in one job). In every case they could have done the work in 40 hours but they slacked off during the day (because nobody can stay focused for 10 hours a day every day). I had a parttime job once, but I never, ever browsed the internet on company time even though all the "hard working" 100+ euro/hour consultants were checking the popular weblogs all day long. But then those consultants go on record as working so many hours and therefore people apparently think it is logical that they earn more money per hour than me, a lowly parttime employee.
Dutch research indicated that a big part of the 20% difference is because of the choices women make (though of course, it is still open for debate whether those choices are always true choices), but even accounting for that there was still a 7% difference that couldn't be explained (of course they also accounted for hours worked). This is a Dutch page with lots of info http://www.loonwijzer.nl/home/vrouwenloonwijzer/beloningsver...
It does say that the Netherlands is a bit worse than other European countries.
Also: I think some technical explanatins as to why it is "logical" that women earn less are nonsense. It makes no sense to penalize a women because she had two babies six and four years ago and therefore was out of the workplace for a few months if there is no objective difference in quality of work today.
I don't think danger has anything to do with pay. If it did, firefighters would earn a lot more than IT consultants. I also don't think responsibility has anything to do with it. If it did daycare workers would earn a lot more than programmers.
And I have never met a regular employee who honestly worked more than 50/hrs a week (in one job). In every case they could have done the work in 40 hours but they slacked off during the day (because nobody can stay focused for 10 hours a day every day). I had a parttime job once, but I never, ever browsed the internet on company time even though all the "hard working" 100+ euro/hour consultants were checking the popular weblogs all day long. But then those consultants go on record as working so many hours and therefore people apparently think it is logical that they earn more money per hour than me, a lowly parttime employee.
Perhaps you should open a company that exploits those arbitrage opportunities?
And I have never met a regular employee who honestly worked more than 50/hrs a week
The statistics include all the dirty, dangerous and manual jobs. The ones that are done predominantly by men and that campaigners forget about when they demand equality.
The statistics include all the dirty, dangerous and manual jobs. The ones that are done predominantly by men and that campaigners forget about when they demand equality.
Ah, where I live it is illegal to work more than 50/hrs a week (on average) in those kind of jobs, so my info is not based on those statistics.
That's just the thing. If we could realize that it's the same issue over and over again, perhaps it would become less of an issue. If only.
In US-parlance, all men are created equal.
We said that right off the bat. Once we decided that by men, we meant people, what further argument is there to have? All means all.
In US-parlance, all men are created equal.
We said that right off the bat. Once we decided that by men, we meant people, what further argument is there to have? All means all.
Let me know when you realize that 4 year olds are people too, and should have full human rights.
If you won't accept that case, then you're part of the problem that doesn't see it's the same issue over and over.
If you won't accept that case, then you're part of the problem that doesn't see it's the same issue over and over.
Murderers and pedophiles are okay then?
No?
So all doesn't mean all, but some subset of all.
Saying that all people are created equally does not mean that all people are free from error or consequence.
Right, what about those who claim being homosexual is a choice? To blur the line more, what about killers who are insane?
If homosexuality is a choice, then i don't understand why not more people choose it - it is fabulous.
I suppose your reply was made in a joking tone but maybe not it was not completely a joke. You made me curious. Why would homosexuality be fabulous? I mean, few of my friends are openly gay, maybe more are... I see no life quality differences between us based on that. Other criteria, sure, but sexual preference... no. I think it's just as fabulous either way. Why would you say otherwise? (assuming I was not wrong on it being only partly a joke)
OK, fine, being gay is a choice. So?
Rushing to edge cases is just bad ethics.
Interesting you should say that. I was reading the declaration of human rights the other day and it struck me that we have a long long way to go before we can even begin to say that the majority of the countries that are signatory to it actually practice them all the time.
It's really quite shocking how many of those 'basic principles' are trampled on a daily basis. There should be a long term trend towards respect for those principles in the countries that are signatory to them, but in fact, on some fronts especially privacy the trend is backwards.
It's really quite shocking how many of those 'basic principles' are trampled on a daily basis. There should be a long term trend towards respect for those principles in the countries that are signatory to them, but in fact, on some fronts especially privacy the trend is backwards.
In princle perhaps, but in practice what happens is that particular groups of people are specifically excluded in all sorts of insidious ways. Usually they're excluded by a "homogenous" majority (homogenous relative to the aspect that defines the minority) and so there is no incentive for members of the majority to stand up for those in the minority.
Examples include gays' right to marry, women's right to vote, slaves' right to freedom, etc.
Examples include gays' right to marry, women's right to vote, slaves' right to freedom, etc.
I'm not so sure about labor rights... More info needed.
> I have never encountered a rational argument for homophobia.
From parents and close relatives it is easy to see a evolutionary reason. However from unrelated males (more common) it would seem that they would have every reason to encourage homosexuality in other males. Maybe it comes from when most people who lived together were related.
From parents and close relatives it is easy to see a evolutionary reason. However from unrelated males (more common) it would seem that they would have every reason to encourage homosexuality in other males. Maybe it comes from when most people who lived together were related.
From parents and close relatives it is easy to see a evolutionary reason
I can't see how it falls to the naturalistic fallacy ("that which is natural is good").
Surely a neo-darwinist sees the only goal of life as perpetuation of a specific genetic code. If an only off-spring chooses to take sexual partners that prevent the perpetuation of the parents genes beyond that offspring's generation then the parents genetic material will cease to be passed on. This is negative not because it is merely natural but because it destroys the only apparent purpose in such a system.
I can see how you'd argue against such a position but I can't see how you can see it is not rational.
Surely a neo-darwinist sees the only goal of life as perpetuation of a specific genetic code. If an only off-spring chooses to take sexual partners that prevent the perpetuation of the parents genes beyond that offspring's generation then the parents genetic material will cease to be passed on. This is negative not because it is merely natural but because it destroys the only apparent purpose in such a system.
I can see how you'd argue against such a position but I can't see how you can see it is not rational.
Encouraging the propagation your genes not rational? In evolutionary terms that is the the goal.
Generalizing from a situation where it may apply (close relatives) to one where it does not apply isn't rational, even if it's a vaguely similar-looking situation.
- The post I was replying wasn't about that part as far as I could tell.
- The exact same reasoning has been applied to why we commit altruistic acts by richard dawkins (sorry no reference). The general idea is that certain behaviours are somewhat hard-coded and applying them to everyone was a good enough approximation for helping your close relatives in the past.
- This is speculation. Generalisation is quite rational when speculating.
- The exact same reasoning has been applied to why we commit altruistic acts by richard dawkins (sorry no reference). The general idea is that certain behaviours are somewhat hard-coded and applying them to everyone was a good enough approximation for helping your close relatives in the past.
- This is speculation. Generalisation is quite rational when speculating.
I've found that geeks tend to be either very religious, or very atheist, but rarely in between (or at least much more rarely than in real life). Perhaps it is the same with other moral issues.
(Alternatively, perhaps JGC is very religious, and his religion guides his views on gay adoption and marriage.)
(Alternatively, perhaps JGC is very religious, and his religion guides his views on gay adoption and marriage.)
What? Being theist or atheist is not a moral issue, it's a philosophical issue about the nature of the universe.
The notion that atheists are less moral than theists is a common misconception.
The notion that atheists are less moral than theists is a common misconception.
I don't think he was saying that one (religious or atheist) is more moral than the other. Just that when we geeks take a stand on a fundamental question, whether it's moral or philosophical/theological, we often do it with conviction.
That depends on what you mean by 'moral.' In common usage, it is a synonym for 'ethics,' but in older usage it had religious connotations. Using the older meaning, a 'moral atheist' is an oxymoron. The fact that many religious ethicists still use the word this way leads to some unfortunate misunderstandings.
I would argue it is more moral to be atheistic than to believe in some god.
And a theist would argue that being theistic is more moral. This devolves simply to the question of whether theism or atheism is correct, so the question of the morality of either position is largely beside the point.
EDIT: Hacker News is not allowing me to reply to you, so I'll ask my question here: If a group of atheist people shared a set of contradictory beliefs, requiring vile and immoral actions, would that make atheism immoral?
EDIT: Hacker News is not allowing me to reply to you, so I'll ask my question here: If a group of atheist people shared a set of contradictory beliefs, requiring vile and immoral actions, would that make atheism immoral?
One argument is that atheists are more moral because they are making moral choices based on what is good and right for other people, instead of saving up their virtue in a bank account in the sky to be cashed in on when they get to Heaven. That is, they aren't being good just because they think God is watching and writing everything down in a little book, they are really just being good.
It's essentially the same argument that Karma is a moral cop-out: you should be good for its own sake, not because the universe is keeping score will reward you in this life or the next.
It's essentially the same argument that Karma is a moral cop-out: you should be good for its own sake, not because the universe is keeping score will reward you in this life or the next.
Except, theistic philosophies (religion), being based on set of contradictory beliefs, allow, no, even require actions from humans that we now consider vile and immoral.
> I have never encountered a rational argument for homophobia.
A gay friend told me about the theory that homophobia is misogyny e.g. some people are homophobic because they don't like men acting like women (mannerisms, dress, voice pitch, sensitivity) because they dislike women.
A gay friend told me about the theory that homophobia is misogyny e.g. some people are homophobic because they don't like men acting like women (mannerisms, dress, voice pitch, sensitivity) because they dislike women.
Ironically enough, a homophobic friend told me about the theory that homosexuality is misogyny e.g. some men are homosexual because they dislike women and don't want to associate with them.
Interestingly enough, I'm pretty sure my comment will shock more people than your comment--even though both comments posit some sort of handwavy unsubstantiated psychological theory nakedly constructed to fit some sort of political bias, yours sounds better because it fits the political bias most of us--myself included--agree with.
Or--to put it a more direct way--speculating about the psychology of people who disagree with you is an especially useless type of ad hominem.
Interestingly enough, I'm pretty sure my comment will shock more people than your comment--even though both comments posit some sort of handwavy unsubstantiated psychological theory nakedly constructed to fit some sort of political bias, yours sounds better because it fits the political bias most of us--myself included--agree with.
Or--to put it a more direct way--speculating about the psychology of people who disagree with you is an especially useless type of ad hominem.
There was a study that went like this (but I can't find it now...I hope I remember it correctly):
We take a sample of subjects. They sit in a room. They are told that in the other room is another person that they will play a game against (actually the outcomes of the games they play are the same for everyone). At some point this involves giving electric shocks to this person. Before they start they are shown a movie of this other person. Now, part of the group gets a movie of a man acting normal and the other part is gets a movie of the same man acting gay. After this the subjects are tested for gayness. It turned out that there is a positive correlation between gayness and the severity of the electric shocks delivered to the gay acting guy. So the theory is that homophobes are (a little) gay themselves, and they are afraid that they act like the gay guy.
Edit: here it is http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=single-angr...
It turns out my memory didn't work flawlessly ;)
We take a sample of subjects. They sit in a room. They are told that in the other room is another person that they will play a game against (actually the outcomes of the games they play are the same for everyone). At some point this involves giving electric shocks to this person. Before they start they are shown a movie of this other person. Now, part of the group gets a movie of a man acting normal and the other part is gets a movie of the same man acting gay. After this the subjects are tested for gayness. It turned out that there is a positive correlation between gayness and the severity of the electric shocks delivered to the gay acting guy. So the theory is that homophobes are (a little) gay themselves, and they are afraid that they act like the gay guy.
Edit: here it is http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=single-angr...
It turns out my memory didn't work flawlessly ;)
I don't think that's quite fair. The parent simply offered up a possible explanation for what is by all accounts an irrational fear.
That's fine if you take the word "homophobia" at face value, but it's become a politically overloaded term, and it's not right to accuse people of mental illness just because they disagree with you.
We need a better word for "anti-gay bigotry". Or, better yet, a set of such words which apply to common subsets of the LGBTQ alphabet-soup categorization. Right now all we have are words like homophobia and transphobia, which would do alright if only they didn't have the mental illness connotations.
Heterosexism: discrimination or prejudice by heterosexuals against homosexuals (Merriam-Webster)
That term actually has a much more specific meaning among the "academic left" (for lack of a better term).
What meaning is that? The meaning I am actually more familiar with is "the belief that one sexual orientation is inherently better than another."
The connotation of "heterosexism" seems closer to "heteronormativity" than "homophobia"--basically the assumption that everyone is heterosexual, or the establishment of heterosexuality as a social norm. For (potentially poor) example, if a television series has a homosexual character who is stereotyped and portrayed in a negative light, that's homophobia. If a television series has no homosexual characters at all despite prominently portraying heterosexual characters and relationships, it's heterosexist or heteronormative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosexism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosexism
I think it would make more sense to use this word the way homophobia is used now. It more closely parallels "racism" as the belief that some races are inherently superior to others.
Would we call a TV show with no minority characters "racist?" Maybe, but it might be seen as stretching the meaning of the word, and the question of whether or not the show was actually racist would be a question to debate, not a part of the definition. I suppose we could have terms for TV shows, movies, corporate boards, startups, etc. that lack minority, gay or other kinds of people. But using an "-ism" for such terms implies discrimination, which I believe should remain open for discussion and debate.
Would we call a TV show with no minority characters "racist?" Maybe, but it might be seen as stretching the meaning of the word, and the question of whether or not the show was actually racist would be a question to debate, not a part of the definition. I suppose we could have terms for TV shows, movies, corporate boards, startups, etc. that lack minority, gay or other kinds of people. But using an "-ism" for such terms implies discrimination, which I believe should remain open for discussion and debate.
"Would we call a TV show with no minority characters "racist?""
Though not in so many words, the kind of academic liberals who use words like "heterosexist" and "heteronormative" would.
Though not in so many words, the kind of academic liberals who use words like "heterosexist" and "heteronormative" would.
One explanation of homophobia that has some support behind it is that the most homophobic men are fearful of their own homoerotic impulses and are lashing out as 'proof' that they are anything but.
See http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=single-angr...
See http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=single-angr...
Homophobia and misogyny are very strongly linked. The worst homophobes are usually misogynists as well. They believe that sexual desire is intractably imbued with domination and humiliation. On some level, they want to control and subjugate (and rape) women because of the immature and disturbing way they've processed their powerful sexual desires.
The thought that a man might have such desire toward them terrifies them. Essentially, they're scared that a man might do to them (or want to do to them) what they want to be able to do to women.
Obviously, this is ridiculous and irrational-- there's no epidemic of gay men raping other men, and straight men are overwhelmingly more likely to be raped by otherwise straight men than by gays-- but I think that's what is behind this rather absurd fear some men have of homosexuality.
The thought that a man might have such desire toward them terrifies them. Essentially, they're scared that a man might do to them (or want to do to them) what they want to be able to do to women.
Obviously, this is ridiculous and irrational-- there's no epidemic of gay men raping other men, and straight men are overwhelmingly more likely to be raped by otherwise straight men than by gays-- but I think that's what is behind this rather absurd fear some men have of homosexuality.
This is just odd to me. It never even occurred to me that the sexuality of a person running a campaign like that would matter. I mean, its Turing -- a name most known for inventing the freaking computer. Sure there is the whole "gay angle" and it being the reason for the treatment -- but I figured the campaign was more about, lets clear this extremely important historical person's name, and for Britain to admit the world had been done an injustice.
I guess I'm sadder that in the world I live in such a thing matters so much, than I was that bad things were done to Turing.
So jgrahamc: FWIW I just figured you were some guy who was more annoyed than me over the Turing thing, and better positioned to make a fuss over it, and for that: good on you. Were I asked, I would have assumed your sexuality is straight, but thats just playing the odds, as I don't know or care who you screw.
I guess I'm sadder that in the world I live in such a thing matters so much, than I was that bad things were done to Turing.
So jgrahamc: FWIW I just figured you were some guy who was more annoyed than me over the Turing thing, and better positioned to make a fuss over it, and for that: good on you. Were I asked, I would have assumed your sexuality is straight, but thats just playing the odds, as I don't know or care who you screw.
I'm only guessing but my thinking on how the thought process went was..
People wondered why he was sticking up for Turing in particular - a lot of people have been abused by the government (and society) in the past. They wondered if he had a certain interest in this specific case; and they falsely assumed it was an issue of sexuality, forgetting that Turing was a geek too :)
People wondered why he was sticking up for Turing in particular - a lot of people have been abused by the government (and society) in the past. They wondered if he had a certain interest in this specific case; and they falsely assumed it was an issue of sexuality, forgetting that Turing was a geek too :)
"... When I was a teenager at school I definitely did not fit in. I had glasses, was awkward, brainy, wore the school uniform because I had no idea what else to wear, and suffered insults from my classmates. One of these was the frequent and common slander “poof” (which is probably the closest thing to the American term “fag”).
I was either ignored, or verbally abused, or physically assaulted. In one attack two boys pinned me down and asked me the incongruous question: “Do you prefer music or art?”. “Art” after all was something only a poof would like. ..."
Cripes @JGC I feel for you mate. The self description as a student could fit any reader here. There but for the grace go I - except I was probably bigger & uglier than yourself.
Anyone who wants a quick understanding of the mechanics of bullying and ways to circumvent it, take a peek at "Hacking People" ~ http://bootload.posterous.com/hacking-people and some thoughts on identifying Cyber Bullies ~ http://seldomlogical.com/2010/03/13/hacking-bullies
I was either ignored, or verbally abused, or physically assaulted. In one attack two boys pinned me down and asked me the incongruous question: “Do you prefer music or art?”. “Art” after all was something only a poof would like. ..."
Cripes @JGC I feel for you mate. The self description as a student could fit any reader here. There but for the grace go I - except I was probably bigger & uglier than yourself.
Anyone who wants a quick understanding of the mechanics of bullying and ways to circumvent it, take a peek at "Hacking People" ~ http://bootload.posterous.com/hacking-people and some thoughts on identifying Cyber Bullies ~ http://seldomlogical.com/2010/03/13/hacking-bullies
This is something I have an interest in, but from a different perspective. I wasn't bullied. I was smart, fat, unapologetically nerdy, and never paid a social price (I had friends, girlfriends in high school, and was not socially maladjusted other than a stubborn anti-authority streak that remains with me). Seemingly I also had higher confidence and was more physically oriented than many geeks I have met later in life.
I'm wondering what the differences were. I know one is that I went to high school in a highly educated town where geeks and jocks were nearly equally respected. That can't be the whole story, however, because I also had some friends who happened to be the less socially able geeks, and I experienced a similar degree of friendship and acceptance in junior high, which was in a decidedly less intellectual-friendly city.
I'm sorry if I seem to be going on, but I want to provide a counterpoint to the picked-on geek, and I'm curious why the bullied geek is such a common stereotype (seems to be a true stereotype; I don't argue otherwise).
I'm wondering what the differences were. I know one is that I went to high school in a highly educated town where geeks and jocks were nearly equally respected. That can't be the whole story, however, because I also had some friends who happened to be the less socially able geeks, and I experienced a similar degree of friendship and acceptance in junior high, which was in a decidedly less intellectual-friendly city.
I'm sorry if I seem to be going on, but I want to provide a counterpoint to the picked-on geek, and I'm curious why the bullied geek is such a common stereotype (seems to be a true stereotype; I don't argue otherwise).
"... I was smart, fat, unapologetically nerdy, and never paid a social price (I had friends, girlfriends in high school, and was not socially maladjusted other than a stubborn anti-authority streak that remains with me). Seemingly I also had higher confidence and was more physically oriented than many geeks I have met later in life. ..."
Extrovert? This matters because if you are introverted people see less information. Being in social situations might also give off a "discomfort" signal in body language. It's easy to see someone is uncomfortable. Harder to understand why? Reading body language is one way Bullies select targets.
Simple experiment. Next time someone is in an argument with you change your stance by placing your hands on your hips, "arms akimbo". The stand of defiance. It's no coincidence US Marine Corp instructors use this stand. It means don't mess with me, I'm standing my ground. Extroverts won't have a clue about these subtle body language because they have more interesting things to think about. Hence they can become TARGETS.
"... I know one is that I went to high school in a highly educated town where geeks and jocks were nearly equally respected. ..."
Now that's a good place to be. I'm not sure it's Geeks v's Jocks as much as Geeks being the bottom of the short lived social graph. PG refers to this phenomena in "Why Nerds are unpopular" ~ http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html
"... I want to provide a counterpoint to the picked-on geek, and I'm curious why the bullied geek is such a common stereotype (seems to be a true stereotype; I don't argue otherwise). ..."
Because they show weakness. Because they could be introverted and therefore appear weak. Because not enough people stand by them when it counts. These reasons alone make them a TARGET for bullies.
Extrovert? This matters because if you are introverted people see less information. Being in social situations might also give off a "discomfort" signal in body language. It's easy to see someone is uncomfortable. Harder to understand why? Reading body language is one way Bullies select targets.
Simple experiment. Next time someone is in an argument with you change your stance by placing your hands on your hips, "arms akimbo". The stand of defiance. It's no coincidence US Marine Corp instructors use this stand. It means don't mess with me, I'm standing my ground. Extroverts won't have a clue about these subtle body language because they have more interesting things to think about. Hence they can become TARGETS.
"... I know one is that I went to high school in a highly educated town where geeks and jocks were nearly equally respected. ..."
Now that's a good place to be. I'm not sure it's Geeks v's Jocks as much as Geeks being the bottom of the short lived social graph. PG refers to this phenomena in "Why Nerds are unpopular" ~ http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html
"... I want to provide a counterpoint to the picked-on geek, and I'm curious why the bullied geek is such a common stereotype (seems to be a true stereotype; I don't argue otherwise). ..."
Because they show weakness. Because they could be introverted and therefore appear weak. Because not enough people stand by them when it counts. These reasons alone make them a TARGET for bullies.
Extroverts won't have a clue about these subtle body language because they have more interesting things to think about.
I think you mean "introverts", there.
I think you mean "introverts", there.
Thanks for the links. While I was part of an "out" group growing up, I managed not to get bullied much (it usually stopped quickly after a round of fisticuffs and my father being a boxing coach in his youth). But a great many of my friends were bullied, some horribly. I've never been able to understand the mechanics of it very well even after having seen it so many times.
"... I was part of an "out" group growing up, I managed not to get bullied much (it usually stopped quickly after a round of fisticuffs and my father being a boxing coach in his youth) ..."
Excellent stuff, go boxing. There's a lot to say for standing up for yourself.
"... But a great many of my friends were bullied, some horribly. I've never been able to understand the mechanics of it very well even after having seen it so many times. ..."
Observing body language should probably be a taught subject in school ~ http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201004/what-e...
An understanding of body language might allow you to see peoples intentions before they give off overt intent. If you want to understand more about decoding & understanding behaviour, talk to http://twitter.com/navarrotells or get a copy "Louder than words" or "What Every Body is Saying" ~ http://jnforensics.com/Books_%26_Videos.html
Excellent stuff, go boxing. There's a lot to say for standing up for yourself.
"... But a great many of my friends were bullied, some horribly. I've never been able to understand the mechanics of it very well even after having seen it so many times. ..."
Observing body language should probably be a taught subject in school ~ http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201004/what-e...
An understanding of body language might allow you to see peoples intentions before they give off overt intent. If you want to understand more about decoding & understanding behaviour, talk to http://twitter.com/navarrotells or get a copy "Louder than words" or "What Every Body is Saying" ~ http://jnforensics.com/Books_%26_Videos.html
I agree, most of the time when I got into a fight in school was because I wasn't paying attention to the aggressive body language of my challenger. When I did notice it, I found I was usually able to talk myself out of the fights by simply taking what the guy was saying and turning it back on him. It defused the immediate situation because it prevented the bully from amping himself up.
One incident in middle school permanently ruined the reputation of a would-be bully since all he knew how to say to start a fight was "common man, let's go". To which I responded "okay, sounds great, where to?" He repeated his statement over and over while I repeated mine. Eventually, it defused the fight. I think he simply didn't know how to respond when I didn't back down and simply took what he was saying absolutely literally instead of as the slang he meant. It also happened in front of a crowd and all through middle and high school was ribbed as the guy who couldn't figure out where to go. He used to get a few compasses at the beginning of every year and offers to help him find his way to class.
One incident in middle school permanently ruined the reputation of a would-be bully since all he knew how to say to start a fight was "common man, let's go". To which I responded "okay, sounds great, where to?" He repeated his statement over and over while I repeated mine. Eventually, it defused the fight. I think he simply didn't know how to respond when I didn't back down and simply took what he was saying absolutely literally instead of as the slang he meant. It also happened in front of a crowd and all through middle and high school was ribbed as the guy who couldn't figure out where to go. He used to get a few compasses at the beginning of every year and offers to help him find his way to class.
"... I managed not to get bullied much (it usually stopped quickly after a round of fisticuffs and my father being a boxing coach in his youth) ..."
However this technique does not always work. Bullying is about finding weakness and applying an asymmetric attack. I'm not sure this approach will work with say a group of girls?
However this technique does not always work. Bullying is about finding weakness and applying an asymmetric attack. I'm not sure this approach will work with say a group of girls?
For guys? It works pretty well, close to 100%. If you can stand up for yourself, even "losing" a fight will usually put a stop to the bullying. The desire not to get hurt, even as a fight "winner", will typically prevent most bullies from engaging in the behavior. Self-preservation is a powerful motivator. Bullies seem to try and pick most subjects to pick on because they believe that subject won't fight back. Once they do (at least with guys), they become too much of a hassle to deal with. I will caveat this though in that the subject has to be smart and assess the chances of the bully returning with a posse to even the score later.
There is a problem though with many subjects in that they are simply not physically capable to respond. I was lucky that my father taught me how to box and told me that he would stand up for me with the school administration if I ever got in a fight standing up to bullies at school. I knew, because of that, that if I was called out to a fight, I could show up at the designated time and place and give what I could. The only times I was every bullied was immediately after transferring between schools, and it only lasted the first time. However, most of my friends were not so lucky, they either didn't have the parental support, or were actively advised to keep their heads low and just suffer through. A few of them had physical problems that prevented them from getting into fights, etc. Some of my friends got hurt pretty bad as a result and were tormented throughout school.
I'm not a girl so I can't really say how to deal with girl bullying. Girl bullies seem to operate on a much subtler level than guy bullies, mostly through social ostracization campaigns. What always fascinated me is how girl bullying has almost no effect on a guy (even with other girls), so girls quickly give up on bullying guys (I'll come back to this in a second), but can devastate a girl, while the inverse, guys bullying girls can be just as effective as guys bullying guys.
It seems to me that getting a girl who is bullied out of the environment where she is bullied as much as possible, and into a group of peers where she can exist without that kind of mal-treatment (basically allow her to socialize in a safe way) can do wonders to build social skills. I have a niece who is smart, creative, talented and otherwise charming, but who is definitely not one of the popular girls. I happened to see her socializing with some of her friends in a public area when the "popular girls" came into the space. I noticed that her friends immediately withdrew while she more or less just ignored them. I think the difference is that her parents enroll her in all kinds of activities, so she has enough confidence through socialization to ignore being ignored, while her friends do no such extra-curricular activities and only know how to socialize with that particular group of peers.
The problem with girls also seems to be identifying bullying. Is she just getting ignored or is she getting bullied? With a guy, a torn shirt or bloody nose is easy to see. So I asked my niece, did she feel like those girls bullied her? Without hesitating she said "no, but they do bully my friends." And I think that the secret for her is what I said earlier about girl bullies and guys. Most guys just ignore girl bullies, and my niece seems to do the same. She has enough socialization with other kids her age who don't bully her that she feels confident enough to simply ignore the bullies and as a result she doesn't get bullied. She knows that she has a peer group she can draw positive socializations from, while her friends are still thinking that someday, those popular girls might want to be friends with them and care about maintaining that possible relationship -- which the popular girls seem to use as an avenue for their bullying.
There is a problem though with many subjects in that they are simply not physically capable to respond. I was lucky that my father taught me how to box and told me that he would stand up for me with the school administration if I ever got in a fight standing up to bullies at school. I knew, because of that, that if I was called out to a fight, I could show up at the designated time and place and give what I could. The only times I was every bullied was immediately after transferring between schools, and it only lasted the first time. However, most of my friends were not so lucky, they either didn't have the parental support, or were actively advised to keep their heads low and just suffer through. A few of them had physical problems that prevented them from getting into fights, etc. Some of my friends got hurt pretty bad as a result and were tormented throughout school.
I'm not a girl so I can't really say how to deal with girl bullying. Girl bullies seem to operate on a much subtler level than guy bullies, mostly through social ostracization campaigns. What always fascinated me is how girl bullying has almost no effect on a guy (even with other girls), so girls quickly give up on bullying guys (I'll come back to this in a second), but can devastate a girl, while the inverse, guys bullying girls can be just as effective as guys bullying guys.
It seems to me that getting a girl who is bullied out of the environment where she is bullied as much as possible, and into a group of peers where she can exist without that kind of mal-treatment (basically allow her to socialize in a safe way) can do wonders to build social skills. I have a niece who is smart, creative, talented and otherwise charming, but who is definitely not one of the popular girls. I happened to see her socializing with some of her friends in a public area when the "popular girls" came into the space. I noticed that her friends immediately withdrew while she more or less just ignored them. I think the difference is that her parents enroll her in all kinds of activities, so she has enough confidence through socialization to ignore being ignored, while her friends do no such extra-curricular activities and only know how to socialize with that particular group of peers.
The problem with girls also seems to be identifying bullying. Is she just getting ignored or is she getting bullied? With a guy, a torn shirt or bloody nose is easy to see. So I asked my niece, did she feel like those girls bullied her? Without hesitating she said "no, but they do bully my friends." And I think that the secret for her is what I said earlier about girl bullies and guys. Most guys just ignore girl bullies, and my niece seems to do the same. She has enough socialization with other kids her age who don't bully her that she feels confident enough to simply ignore the bullies and as a result she doesn't get bullied. She knows that she has a peer group she can draw positive socializations from, while her friends are still thinking that someday, those popular girls might want to be friends with them and care about maintaining that possible relationship -- which the popular girls seem to use as an avenue for their bullying.
I knew, because of that, that if I was called out to a fight, I could show up at the designated time and place and give what I could.
Whenever someone would try to designate a time and place, my response was invariably, "No. Right now."
I thereby avoided the scenario where I won the fight in private but the challenger publicly claimed victory anyway.
It also cut down the number of challengers very quickly. I didn't have to fight at all in high school. :)
Whenever someone would try to designate a time and place, my response was invariably, "No. Right now."
I thereby avoided the scenario where I won the fight in private but the challenger publicly claimed victory anyway.
It also cut down the number of challengers very quickly. I didn't have to fight at all in high school. :)
I kinda wish I could get in my time machine and use that instead. I would have been much less painful on my nose and far fewer broken pairs of glasses.
Somehow, I never thought of doing that at the time.
Somehow, I never thought of doing that at the time.
"... Whenever someone would try to designate a time and place, my response was invariably, "No. Right now." ..."
The other reason is to avoid an ambush.
The other reason is to avoid an ambush.
"... What always fascinated me is how girl bullying has almost no effect on a guy (even with other girls), so girls quickly give up on bullying guys (I'll come back to this in a second), but can devastate a girl, while the inverse, guys bullying girls can be just as effective as guys bullying guys. ..."
Don't know about this. I've seen groups of women cut men down in bars all the time. Another explanation is maybe men don't show weakness.
"... She knows that she has a peer group she can draw positive socializations from, while her friends are still thinking that someday, those popular girls might want to be friends with them and care about maintaining that possible relationship -- which the popular girls seem to use as an avenue for their bullying. ..."
Excellent observation.
Don't know about this. I've seen groups of women cut men down in bars all the time. Another explanation is maybe men don't show weakness.
"... She knows that she has a peer group she can draw positive socializations from, while her friends are still thinking that someday, those popular girls might want to be friends with them and care about maintaining that possible relationship -- which the popular girls seem to use as an avenue for their bullying. ..."
Excellent observation.
No matter how natural and necessary this might be, it doesn't happen very often that someone fights for a group he/she doesn't belong to. Hats off once more to JGC for that.
I love these things, as a gay coder I get to feel special and like I'm representing my kind with my views. ;) In my experience, it's not geeks specifically that are more accepting, but educated people in general. It seems obvious but I think that's all it is.
All in all, a great essay. But:
>I’m conflicted about whether gay couples should be allowed to adopt.
Why on earth shouldn't a gay couple be allowed to adopt?
>I’m conflicted about whether gay couples should be allowed to adopt.
Why on earth shouldn't a gay couple be allowed to adopt?
If the demand for adoption outstrips supply, and if (big if) a man and a woman parent substantially better than two people of the same gender, it might make sense to have a blanket preference for heterosexual couples when choosing parents. There could be something innate in each gender that contributes to a child's upbringing, and depending on the value of those traits, it could be responsible to maximize the number of children who benefit from both.
I realize this is an explanation for the argument against same-sex couple adoption, but in the same vein I'd like to point out that where this argument falls apart is in the legality of single parent adoption.
In the US, it is legal in every state for single parents to adopt. However, in some states it is illegal for same-sex couples to adopt children.
For the real kicker, in Florida (where I am from), homosexual people cannot adopt. So while a single straight woman can adopt a child, a single lesbian woman cannot.
In the US, it is legal in every state for single parents to adopt. However, in some states it is illegal for same-sex couples to adopt children.
For the real kicker, in Florida (where I am from), homosexual people cannot adopt. So while a single straight woman can adopt a child, a single lesbian woman cannot.
I was being excessively charitable in my framing of the argument. It makes zero sense for it to be illegal for gay people to adopt. It could make sense to prefer straight couples over gays and singles, which would effectively exclude them if the demand for adoption outstrips supply as much as I presume.
I know you said it "could make sense to prefer straight couples", but beware of implicit associations when thinking that something like this makes sense. We're much more exposed to examples of heterosexual couples raising children than homosexual couples, and, as Harvard's Implicit Association Test demonstrates, this could easily lead us to thing that one "makes more sense" than the other. Increasing positive exposure to the opposite end of things can change our opinion. Harvard's IAT site has more information (check out esp. the Q's about the Black-White test):
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/background/faqs.h...
Malcolm Gladwell also examines the phenomenon of implicit social adjustment in his book _Blink_ (http://www.amazon.com/Blink-Power-Thinking-Without/dp/031601...).
Malcolm Gladwell also examines the phenomenon of implicit social adjustment in his book _Blink_ (http://www.amazon.com/Blink-Power-Thinking-Without/dp/031601...).
Why? What magical quality does a straight couple bring to the table? Are they innately less dysfunctional than a gay couple?
Magical quality? Well, 2 genders instead of one. I don't find the idea that children take their cues depending on the gender of the parent at all unreasonable. It's certainly entered the common mind as an idea of what happens. Is it true? No idea, haven't seen any research on it. But there's at least a possible basis for the "magical" quality of gender being important.
I'm skeptical. What cues? Are you thinking a girl learns how she should act by emulating a mom, and the same for a boy in relation to his dad?
Here's the logic of a non-homophobic argument I have heard of. The majority of research on parenting and raising children has been done with heterosexual parents as a base assumption. Someone who is extremely supportive of gay rights who is also a rational thinker might be cautious when considering the issue of adoption by homosexuals. Why be cautious? Because it is necessary to take reasonable measures to guarantee the children will be raised appropriately. It is a human right of the children. In American society we place an especially high value on protecting the rights of people who cannot defend themselves, including children and the disenfranchised. Yes, homosexuals are a disenfranchised group as well, but there are homosexuals who serve openly in Congress. It's not quite on the same level as children, who do not yet have the ability to speak English.
I'm not up to date on the literature regarding child development. It may be that there are studies that suggest that homosexual families are no different than heterosexual families in terms of impact on the child. I'm just throwing this argument out there because it is one of the few non-homophobic arguments against homosexual adoption that I know of. I don't personally have an opinion on this issue because I'm not qualified.
I'm not up to date on the literature regarding child development. It may be that there are studies that suggest that homosexual families are no different than heterosexual families in terms of impact on the child. I'm just throwing this argument out there because it is one of the few non-homophobic arguments against homosexual adoption that I know of. I don't personally have an opinion on this issue because I'm not qualified.
In American society we place an especially high value on protecting the rights of people who cannot defend themselves, including children and the disenfranchised.
No, we don't. We like to think we do. Consider: most Americans agree that a substantial number of prisoners suffer repeated rape and abuse. This is so commonly accepted that it is a well known trope in mass market entertainment. Prisoners obviously cannot defend themselves. Yet there is zero political pressure to reform the criminal justice system to alleviate this problem. Because we really don't care that much about protecting people who can't protect themselves.
More to the point, if we did place a high value on protecting children, then child protective services organizations would not be chronically underfunded and understaffed. In most places, CPS case workers are so overwhelmed by absurd case loads, that they cannot give sufficient attention to most of their cases, so children end up slipping through the cracks.
No, we don't. We like to think we do. Consider: most Americans agree that a substantial number of prisoners suffer repeated rape and abuse. This is so commonly accepted that it is a well known trope in mass market entertainment. Prisoners obviously cannot defend themselves. Yet there is zero political pressure to reform the criminal justice system to alleviate this problem. Because we really don't care that much about protecting people who can't protect themselves.
More to the point, if we did place a high value on protecting children, then child protective services organizations would not be chronically underfunded and understaffed. In most places, CPS case workers are so overwhelmed by absurd case loads, that they cannot give sufficient attention to most of their cases, so children end up slipping through the cracks.
Ok, (1) Problems with the prison system and (2) underfunded child services compared to: (1) ending slavery, (2) desegregation, (3) women's suffrage, (4) free speech for extreme minorities, (5) freedom of religion for extreme minorities, (6) strong hate crime legislation, (7) landing at Normandy, (8) affirmative action, (9) free public defenders, (10) a right to a trial by your peers, (11) ...
The fact that American protection of the defenseless isn't completely perfect doesn't mean we don't care about it as a society. You gave two examples and then extrapolated from your small sample to claim American society doesn't actually care about the disenfranchised. I think you might need some perspective.
The fact that American protection of the defenseless isn't completely perfect doesn't mean we don't care about it as a society. You gave two examples and then extrapolated from your small sample to claim American society doesn't actually care about the disenfranchised. I think you might need some perspective.
The fact that American protection of the defenseless isn't completely perfect doesn't mean we don't care about it as a society.
I don't think this a reasonable way to analyse societal priorities. Obviously, all human societies are going to place some value on protecting the defenceless. I mean, can you think of any human society that placed no value whatsoever on protecting the defenceless? So if that's the metric you're going to judge on, then no society can ever fail. As a result, this strikes me as a pretty useless metric.
The original comment used the phrase "especially high value on protecting the rights of people who cannot defend themselves." The only reasonable way I know of to assess such statements is to compare America to peer nations that have similar levels of wealth and similar forms of government. I mean, "especially high" seems to require a relative comparison. Specifically, one might look at child poverty, child malnourishment, or infant morality. On any of those metrics, the US ranks dead last (or near dead last) when compared with peer nations. That result does not seem to be compatible with the notion that the richest country in the world has a greater concern for the welfare of defenceless children than other western nations. Don't you agree?
Look, you can point to my examples and claim that they're special cases, but human organizations demonstrate their values with their budgets. Talk is cheap. Paying for enough CPS staff is not. Well, actually, it is really cheap given the benefits. Underfunded CPS? American society doesn't care all that much about disadvantaged children. Or rather, American society values low marginal tax rates and absolute parental autonomy higher than providing for child protection services. That doesn't mean that American society is bad or evil or that Americans are monsters, but it does mean that you can't justify policies by talking about our unique commitment to protecting defenceless children.
I don't think this a reasonable way to analyse societal priorities. Obviously, all human societies are going to place some value on protecting the defenceless. I mean, can you think of any human society that placed no value whatsoever on protecting the defenceless? So if that's the metric you're going to judge on, then no society can ever fail. As a result, this strikes me as a pretty useless metric.
The original comment used the phrase "especially high value on protecting the rights of people who cannot defend themselves." The only reasonable way I know of to assess such statements is to compare America to peer nations that have similar levels of wealth and similar forms of government. I mean, "especially high" seems to require a relative comparison. Specifically, one might look at child poverty, child malnourishment, or infant morality. On any of those metrics, the US ranks dead last (or near dead last) when compared with peer nations. That result does not seem to be compatible with the notion that the richest country in the world has a greater concern for the welfare of defenceless children than other western nations. Don't you agree?
Look, you can point to my examples and claim that they're special cases, but human organizations demonstrate their values with their budgets. Talk is cheap. Paying for enough CPS staff is not. Well, actually, it is really cheap given the benefits. Underfunded CPS? American society doesn't care all that much about disadvantaged children. Or rather, American society values low marginal tax rates and absolute parental autonomy higher than providing for child protection services. That doesn't mean that American society is bad or evil or that Americans are monsters, but it does mean that you can't justify policies by talking about our unique commitment to protecting defenceless children.
"It may be that there are studies that suggest that homosexual families are no different than heterosexual families in terms of impact on the child."
There is also the question of what are considered good outcomes for children. For example, I read somewhere that children of gay parents have sex earlier or more often. Assuming that's true, is it a good or bad thing?
There is also the question of what are considered good outcomes for children. For example, I read somewhere that children of gay parents have sex earlier or more often. Assuming that's true, is it a good or bad thing?
So, if i get a surrogate and we have a child, and my gay partner wants to adopt the baby so that we are both legal parents, surely it make no sense to deny the adoption?
I don't think that holds water. Gay rights are great, but childrens rights are greater. If there is any doubt about the rights of either group being infringed on by 'experimenting' then you have an immediate problem because nobody will sign off on experimenting on children to see if in the long term it will matter or not.
If there would be large numbers of cases proving that it essentially makes no difference then that would help, but you're in a chicken-and-the-egg situation.
I know of one gay couple in my circle of friends that would like to adopt a child and they've come to the conclusion that they themselves can't come to a 100% agreement between the two of them about what that responsibility exactly entails. It was a very eye opening discussion, because I think I went away a changed person, essentially form going to saying 'I don't see why not' to 'maybe it really is better, who knows'.
For me that's a weird thing because when I thought about this before I always thought that gay people would not 'overlap' with straight people on this issue but would be on the far side of a barrier that you can not cross because you can not imagine what it is exactly like to be gay when you are not.
This is a very complex issue, societal pressures are such that simply being raised as the child of two gay parents puts undue pressure on a child (for instance peer pressure), and that can cause serious damage. That's the sort of argument that they went on about and I had never even thought of it from that angle.
If there would be large numbers of cases proving that it essentially makes no difference then that would help, but you're in a chicken-and-the-egg situation.
I know of one gay couple in my circle of friends that would like to adopt a child and they've come to the conclusion that they themselves can't come to a 100% agreement between the two of them about what that responsibility exactly entails. It was a very eye opening discussion, because I think I went away a changed person, essentially form going to saying 'I don't see why not' to 'maybe it really is better, who knows'.
For me that's a weird thing because when I thought about this before I always thought that gay people would not 'overlap' with straight people on this issue but would be on the far side of a barrier that you can not cross because you can not imagine what it is exactly like to be gay when you are not.
This is a very complex issue, societal pressures are such that simply being raised as the child of two gay parents puts undue pressure on a child (for instance peer pressure), and that can cause serious damage. That's the sort of argument that they went on about and I had never even thought of it from that angle.
So you're saying my gay partner should not be allowed to adopt my biological kid to provide a stable legal environment?
In another scenario, isn't it better for a gay child in foster care to be adopted by gay parents than by straight parents?
When you say "peer pressure", is that just a euphemism for bullying?
In another scenario, isn't it better for a gay child in foster care to be adopted by gay parents than by straight parents?
When you say "peer pressure", is that just a euphemism for bullying?
> So you're saying my gay partner should not be allowed to adopt my biological kid to provide a stable legal environment?
The situation I had in mind was two gay people without children adopting a child.
> In another scenario, isn't it better for a gay child in foster care to be adopted by gay parents than by straight parents?
That would probably be a good thing.
The situation I had in mind was two gay people without children adopting a child.
> In another scenario, isn't it better for a gay child in foster care to be adopted by gay parents than by straight parents?
That would probably be a good thing.
The argument I mentioned is concerned with psychological development not biological. I don't see how what your saying relates to the argument in any sense. Based on the argument, it would make sense to deny the adoption in your scenario.
To present the argument again, because homosexual parenting hasn't been extensively studied, we need to avoid homosexual adoption until a foundation of research can be established in this area. Research on developmental psychology guides many of the child adoption rules currently in place. The argument is that the same standard should be applied to homosexual adoption.
Again, note my use of distancing language. This isn't my opinion; I do not hold one on this issue because I'm not qualified in this area.
EDIT: The American Psychological Association has filed an Amicus Brief that is relevant.
"Because many beliefs about lesbian and gay parents and their children are open to empirical testing, psychological research can evaluate their accuracy.... the results of existing research comparing lesbian and gay parents to heterosexual parents and children of lesbian and gay parents to children of heterosexual parents are quite clear: Common stereotypes are not supported by the data... Some areas of research, such as gender development, and some periods of life, such as adolescence, have been described by reviewers as understudied and deserving of greater attention... There is no evidence to suggest that lesbian women or gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of lesbian women or gay men is compromised relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents... although a considerable amount of information is available, additional research would further our understanding of lesbian and gay parents and their children... It should be acknowledged that research on lesbian and gay parents and their children, though no longer new, is still limited in extent. Although studies of gay fathers and their children have been conducted (Patterson, 2004), less is known about children of gay fathers than about children of lesbian mothers."
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx
Personally, seems like a reasonable standard of proof to me, but I think the people who hold the argument I've been presenting would say that the standard of proof necessary is up to the courts. Clearly there are areas that need more research, as the research is "limited in extent".
To present the argument again, because homosexual parenting hasn't been extensively studied, we need to avoid homosexual adoption until a foundation of research can be established in this area. Research on developmental psychology guides many of the child adoption rules currently in place. The argument is that the same standard should be applied to homosexual adoption.
Again, note my use of distancing language. This isn't my opinion; I do not hold one on this issue because I'm not qualified in this area.
EDIT: The American Psychological Association has filed an Amicus Brief that is relevant.
"Because many beliefs about lesbian and gay parents and their children are open to empirical testing, psychological research can evaluate their accuracy.... the results of existing research comparing lesbian and gay parents to heterosexual parents and children of lesbian and gay parents to children of heterosexual parents are quite clear: Common stereotypes are not supported by the data... Some areas of research, such as gender development, and some periods of life, such as adolescence, have been described by reviewers as understudied and deserving of greater attention... There is no evidence to suggest that lesbian women or gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of lesbian women or gay men is compromised relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents... although a considerable amount of information is available, additional research would further our understanding of lesbian and gay parents and their children... It should be acknowledged that research on lesbian and gay parents and their children, though no longer new, is still limited in extent. Although studies of gay fathers and their children have been conducted (Patterson, 2004), less is known about children of gay fathers than about children of lesbian mothers."
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx
Personally, seems like a reasonable standard of proof to me, but I think the people who hold the argument I've been presenting would say that the standard of proof necessary is up to the courts. Clearly there are areas that need more research, as the research is "limited in extent".
I think gays should boycott jurisdictions that bar them from getting married or adopting.
It would make sense not to allow you (not you personally, in fact anyone) to have a child with a "surrogate", i.e. a mother who deliberatly chooses before conception to play no role in raising that child.
So a straight couple who can't have kids should be barred from using a surrogate?
Sure, I believe that no person should be conceived with the deliberate intention of one or both of his/her genetic parents* playing a fully meaningful parenting role in his/her life.
*or gestational mother in the case of a non-traditional surrogate
*or gestational mother in the case of a non-traditional surrogate
Actually they are, e.g., in Germany. (If memory serves me right.)
How is this even in debate? Of course boys learn how to be a man, to a significant degree, by observing their father (not emulating, but observing) and girls by observing their mother.
I think there's a tendency for people to underestimate the exposure they get to their families as compared to the exposure they get to anyone else in the world when it comes to close emotional contact.
Some of use who are aware of having had emotionally withdrawn fathers (or mothers) realise this better than others.
I think there's a tendency for people to underestimate the exposure they get to their families as compared to the exposure they get to anyone else in the world when it comes to close emotional contact.
Some of use who are aware of having had emotionally withdrawn fathers (or mothers) realise this better than others.
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I never was convinced single parent adoption was a good idea.
1 parent is still better than 0.
I'm thinking mostly from the POV of if we had more adopting families than orphans, which I know isn't actually the case.
It's not blanket-true that there are more adopting families than orphans. For healthy Caucasian newborns, demand outstrips supply by factors of 100 or more. For HIV+ African-American 13-year-olds, adoption is basically never going to happen.
How does the state determine your sexual preferences? Do they take a blood test?
Why? they had their chance! It was a hetero couple that created & ditched the kid in the first place+. Every couple has their own yin-yang dynamic, and it has very little to do with whether they're an innie or an outy.
+ Ignoring tragedies, of course.
Edit: footnote symbol caused formatting changes.
+ Ignoring tragedies, of course.
Edit: footnote symbol caused formatting changes.
On the other hand, having greater variation might provide a net benefit to the population as a whole.
BIG if
It is an arrangement that is extremely uncommon through most of human history/evolution so it seems reasonable to believe that humans may not be well adapted to brought up by gay couples. You could argue that the lack of genetic relationship to the parents overwhelms any difference between heterosexual and homosexual couples. But on balance it is not difficult to see why being reared be both a male and female parent could have advantages.
Additionally to this you could imagine a scenario where the genes that tended to increase heterosexuality also played a part in being a naturally 'good parent'.
Of course all these 'first assumptions' could and should be replaced by actual evidence and I know there is some of that. However I'd argue that studies and statistics to date are likely to be biased by the additional hurdles placed in front of gay couples. Only the very best and most dedicated gay couples are likely to allowed to adopt.
I'm not arguing that this justifies a blanket ban, but a degree of caution seems to make sense.
Additionally to this you could imagine a scenario where the genes that tended to increase heterosexuality also played a part in being a naturally 'good parent'.
Of course all these 'first assumptions' could and should be replaced by actual evidence and I know there is some of that. However I'd argue that studies and statistics to date are likely to be biased by the additional hurdles placed in front of gay couples. Only the very best and most dedicated gay couples are likely to allowed to adopt.
I'm not arguing that this justifies a blanket ban, but a degree of caution seems to make sense.
Luckily, plenty of gay couples have tried raising kids, and they do just fine, thank you very much. :)
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx
"Beliefs that lesbian and gay adults are not fit parents likewise have no empirical foundation."
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx
"Beliefs that lesbian and gay adults are not fit parents likewise have no empirical foundation."
I have no doubt that many gay couples do quite well at raising children. I would however put those cases were one of the biological parents was present in a different category to what we are talking about (which I suspect is your case).
> "Beliefs that lesbian and gay adults are not fit parents likewise have no empirical foundation."
As I argued in my post, most studies are likely to effected by selection bias so it is going to be tough to get a solid "empirical foundation" either way.
The real question is who should have the burden of evidence? Should we say that 'until gay couples are proven to be good parents we won't allow adoption' or 'unless it is proven that gay couples are bad parents they should have identical adoption rights'. I don't think either is sensible position and some sort of middle ground would be best as more evidence accumulates.
> "Beliefs that lesbian and gay adults are not fit parents likewise have no empirical foundation."
As I argued in my post, most studies are likely to effected by selection bias so it is going to be tough to get a solid "empirical foundation" either way.
The real question is who should have the burden of evidence? Should we say that 'until gay couples are proven to be good parents we won't allow adoption' or 'unless it is proven that gay couples are bad parents they should have identical adoption rights'. I don't think either is sensible position and some sort of middle ground would be best as more evidence accumulates.
Why do gay parents need to prove their parenting abilities when no one else does? Where are your empirical studies on straight parents being good parents, or "better" than gay parents? What is your definition of a good parent, anyway? What is your definition of "natural" (as in "naturally good parents")?
We shouldn't do either of those options, they are both total horseshit. It's not a matter of what rule we should adopt, it's a matter of should we adopt a rule at all. And no, we shouldn't.
We shouldn't do either of those options, they are both total horseshit. It's not a matter of what rule we should adopt, it's a matter of should we adopt a rule at all. And no, we shouldn't.
> Why do gay parents need to prove their parenting abilities when no one else does?
Straight parents are the origin of the our species. Everyone of your biological ancestors forms a direct and unbroken line of 'Straight parents'. It is logical to assume children are well adapted to straight parents and vice versa. In fact we have no other real choice.
When a company develops a new substance and wants to use it as a food additive we naturally ask if it has been tested properly before allowing human consumption. But we do not ask whether commonly eaten foods such as rice and bananas need testing. The have been tested throughout history.
To put it another way,
Straight parents are the origin of the our species. Everyone of your biological ancestors forms a direct and unbroken line of 'Straight parents'. It is logical to assume children are well adapted to straight parents and vice versa. In fact we have no other real choice.
When a company develops a new substance and wants to use it as a food additive we naturally ask if it has been tested properly before allowing human consumption. But we do not ask whether commonly eaten foods such as rice and bananas need testing. The have been tested throughout history.
To put it another way,
Ironically, even as a homosexual, I suspect that your former predicate is actually more unlikely than the latter. Though the latter is pretty damn ridiculous as well, at least by the metric of the literature I'm exposed to so I could be unaware of something supporting that idea.
There are studies that show that lacking either a male or female parental figure can have bad long term effects. Which I would say is a good reason to prefer a male-female paring as adoptive parents.
However, with the number of children in care rather than with adoptive parents being quite massive I imagine the damage done by missing one gender of parent is significantly less than the damage done by living in such an institution.
However, with the number of children in care rather than with adoptive parents being quite massive I imagine the damage done by missing one gender of parent is significantly less than the damage done by living in such an institution.
I think the reservations are built on a couple things:
• It's not hard to argue that it's good for a child to have a mom and a dad. I'm not going to get into such, but whether or not you agree, let's just accept that it's not a wild notion.
• Adoption is one of the few places where there's any chance for society to evaluate the fitness of parents before they can have children. Usually it just happens.
• A male-male couple (edit: or single male, or infertile female(s)) is the only combination that's forced into adoption, thus with the prior two points in mind, it's the only one where they are ipso facto subjected to societal evaluation, for a coupling that some consider less than perfect for children.
Now the reality is that most sets of parents are far from ideal. No doubt two loving gay parents is healthier than quarrelsome straight parents. But if quarrelsome parents are knocked up biology, not society sets the conditions.
• It's not hard to argue that it's good for a child to have a mom and a dad. I'm not going to get into such, but whether or not you agree, let's just accept that it's not a wild notion.
• Adoption is one of the few places where there's any chance for society to evaluate the fitness of parents before they can have children. Usually it just happens.
• A male-male couple (edit: or single male, or infertile female(s)) is the only combination that's forced into adoption, thus with the prior two points in mind, it's the only one where they are ipso facto subjected to societal evaluation, for a coupling that some consider less than perfect for children.
Now the reality is that most sets of parents are far from ideal. No doubt two loving gay parents is healthier than quarrelsome straight parents. But if quarrelsome parents are knocked up biology, not society sets the conditions.
It's not hard to argue that it's good for a child to have a mom and a dad.
The APA's official stance (one borne out by my personal experience with gay families) is that there is no difference in the well-being of children raised by two same-sex parents or two opposite-sex parents.
"...the results of existing research comparing lesbian and gay parents to heterosexual parents and children of lesbian and gay parents to children of heterosexual parents are quite clear: Common stereotypes are not supported by the data."
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx
The APA's official stance (one borne out by my personal experience with gay families) is that there is no difference in the well-being of children raised by two same-sex parents or two opposite-sex parents.
"...the results of existing research comparing lesbian and gay parents to heterosexual parents and children of lesbian and gay parents to children of heterosexual parents are quite clear: Common stereotypes are not supported by the data."
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx
See, the thing is, both replies jumped directly on the point I was trying not to make.
I wasn't answering with my belief, nor was I saying that gay parents are worse, but trying to get at where the root of apprehension might lie with liberal-minded folks, such as the case was in the article.
What I was trying to say is that such a belief is fairly prevalent and well short of nutjobbery.
I wasn't answering with my belief, nor was I saying that gay parents are worse, but trying to get at where the root of apprehension might lie with liberal-minded folks, such as the case was in the article.
What I was trying to say is that such a belief is fairly prevalent and well short of nutjobbery.
Ah, I gotcha. I do agree with the rest of your reasoning.
I've had this debate before (strangely enough, at a faith-based LGBT family meeting with leaders of the Willow Creek megachurch in Chicago), and that particular point has been a sore sticking point. In its weak form (as you've presented) it does nothing to address the matter of LGBT parents, and in its strong form (gay parents are worse), it contradicts pretty much all available evidence.
I've had this debate before (strangely enough, at a faith-based LGBT family meeting with leaders of the Willow Creek megachurch in Chicago), and that particular point has been a sore sticking point. In its weak form (as you've presented) it does nothing to address the matter of LGBT parents, and in its strong form (gay parents are worse), it contradicts pretty much all available evidence.
From what I understand, most studies show that the most important thing is for kids to have two parents -- kids raised in single parent households didn't do as well (but I'm not sure how many associated variables were controlled for.)
The gender of the two parents didn't seem to have much of an impact.
The gender of the two parents didn't seem to have much of an impact.
Isn't it often the case though that in gay couples one is more masculine and the other more feminine? Or dominant/submissive perhaps.
That's probably more important - having both types of personality present?
That's probably more important - having both types of personality present?
No, that is a stereotype. Most gay couples don't look like that.
I wasn't talking about 'looks'. I was talking about behavior.
Whenever I see gay couples on documentaries etc, there almost always seems to be one 'feminine' one, and one 'masculine' one. Regardless of what sex they actually are.
Whenever I see gay couples on documentaries etc, there almost always seems to be one 'feminine' one, and one 'masculine' one. Regardless of what sex they actually are.
Documentaries != real life.
Documentaries are a subset of real life. So there must at the minimum be some couples who fit this pattern :/
Of course, you'll find the same pattern among some straight couples as well. Your original statement that most gay couples fit the pattern simply isn't true, most couples of gay men is two guys living together, dividing household chores in a way that does not follow stereotypical gender roles, and most couples of gay women living together is the same. Hell, even most straight couples I know don't divide household chores that way, or have one partner being the dominant one.
So no, you are not likely to find the "male"/"female" pattern among gay couples, but since it's not even common among straight couples, I strongly doubt it's relevant for raising children.
So no, you are not likely to find the "male"/"female" pattern among gay couples, but since it's not even common among straight couples, I strongly doubt it's relevant for raising children.
I'm not sure where you're basing that on.
Most couples have pretty strongly defined roles. For example, if a shelf needs putting up, it's more than likely that the male will be tasked with this. If a daughter is after makeup advice, it's likely that they'll go to their mother rather than father.
Perhaps you're reading way more into what I'm saying than is actually there.
Most couples have pretty strongly defined roles. For example, if a shelf needs putting up, it's more than likely that the male will be tasked with this. If a daughter is after makeup advice, it's likely that they'll go to their mother rather than father.
Perhaps you're reading way more into what I'm saying than is actually there.
Fair enough, I had totally different actions in mind, but for your examples I can see how those are very likely to be divided by gender in straight households.
However, when it comes to gay relationships, you generally can't make any prediction about who does what or how the chores are divided. The notion that all relationships have (or worse: has to have) a "male" and a "female" is completely unfounded.
However, when it comes to gay relationships, you generally can't make any prediction about who does what or how the chores are divided. The notion that all relationships have (or worse: has to have) a "male" and a "female" is completely unfounded.
He admits that he is conflicted about the whole gay marriage and adoption rights which to me says he probably wouldn't be acting against it but he also won't be acting for it.
There are many reasons why someone can feel conflicted about something such as gay marriage and adopting but probably is linked most with upbringing and whether or not religion plays a factor. I'm guessing that he is personally conflicted rather than logically.
But from what I have heard adoption is a hard enough process without being gay.
There are many reasons why someone can feel conflicted about something such as gay marriage and adopting but probably is linked most with upbringing and whether or not religion plays a factor. I'm guessing that he is personally conflicted rather than logically.
But from what I have heard adoption is a hard enough process without being gay.
An interesting question that might help everyone learn how they feel about this:
Would you allow a pair of people who are not in a relationship to adopt, for example, two great friends who just happen to live together, but are not in a sexual or romantic relationship with each other?
Would you allow a pair of people who are not in a relationship to adopt, for example, two great friends who just happen to live together, but are not in a sexual or romantic relationship with each other?
The deal here is that long term stability is what it is all about. Heterosexuals and Homosexuals alike appear in all variations, some are promiscuous, some stay with the same partner all their lives. The perception is that in the gay scene because there are no children to worry about sexuality is much freer than it is in the hetero scene.
I doubt if that is actually the case though.
But I think the 'stable family arrangement' factor weighs heavily in all this. And elsewhere in this thread I think I've shown that there can be pressure on a child simply because it is raised by two gay parents, after all, it immediately makes you the odd one out. Of course other children should be brought up to realize that it makes no difference as far as the child is concerned, but unfortunately that is not the case.
Teenagers that are gay as a rule do what they can to stay under water in plenty of cases for fear of the kind of nastiness that can come out of being 'out' at a young age. Not all schools deal with stuff like that well - in fact, most schools don't.
I doubt if that is actually the case though.
But I think the 'stable family arrangement' factor weighs heavily in all this. And elsewhere in this thread I think I've shown that there can be pressure on a child simply because it is raised by two gay parents, after all, it immediately makes you the odd one out. Of course other children should be brought up to realize that it makes no difference as far as the child is concerned, but unfortunately that is not the case.
Teenagers that are gay as a rule do what they can to stay under water in plenty of cases for fear of the kind of nastiness that can come out of being 'out' at a young age. Not all schools deal with stuff like that well - in fact, most schools don't.
No, long term stability is not "what it is all about".
Long term stability is one of the very important aspects of the quality of parenting, but it's not all of them.
In fact long term stability is itself determined to some extent by the nature of the relationships between each parent and the child or children.
The point of my question was to help each person who wants to think about this issue clarify their ideas by asking themselves whether it's the nature of the relationship between the "parents" that's the issue, or whether it just matters that there is some sort of strong bond, whatever that may be.
I'm not trying to lead anyone to on conclusion or other, just point out a thought experiment that might help people understand their own points of view.
Long term stability is one of the very important aspects of the quality of parenting, but it's not all of them.
In fact long term stability is itself determined to some extent by the nature of the relationships between each parent and the child or children.
The point of my question was to help each person who wants to think about this issue clarify their ideas by asking themselves whether it's the nature of the relationship between the "parents" that's the issue, or whether it just matters that there is some sort of strong bond, whatever that may be.
I'm not trying to lead anyone to on conclusion or other, just point out a thought experiment that might help people understand their own points of view.
Devils advocate: a child raised by the gay couple might be stigmatized by its peers, so in the best interest of the child it might be better for the child to be raised in traditional nuclear family. If you look at it that way it is also a chicken and egg problem.
The same argument was made against interracial marriage - that the children would be stigmatized, or harmed in some other way. (In fact, one good first step toward removing the stigma is to stop treating the parents differently under the law.)
I am a person of mixed race, and I'm shocked at how many of the exact same arguments against gay marriage and adoption were also used against interracial marriage and interracial adoption. (It's unnatural; it's against God's will; it will harm the children; it will harm traditional marriages; it will destroy the institution of marriage...) I'm curious if the people making the arguments are aware of this and would also oppose interracial marriage if possible, or if they just don't see the parallels.
I am a person of mixed race, and I'm shocked at how many of the exact same arguments against gay marriage and adoption were also used against interracial marriage and interracial adoption. (It's unnatural; it's against God's will; it will harm the children; it will harm traditional marriages; it will destroy the institution of marriage...) I'm curious if the people making the arguments are aware of this and would also oppose interracial marriage if possible, or if they just don't see the parallels.
There are lots of ways some kid's straight parents could be stigmatized too. Your argument doesn't really hold any water.
By that logic, we shouldn't allow ugly couples to adopt either. WAY too stigmatizing. :-)
I'd actually like to see the statistics on acceptance rates of ugly couple vs good looking one. I'll bet they're pretty damning.
Are you saying being raised in a foster home makes for a better childhood than having two loving (same sex) parents?
Where did anyone mention love? I think you've just presented us with a false dilemma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
I was accentuating the difference between foster care and growing up with parents. Foster care provides for little to no genuine love.
I guess that's the same as saying: "I wouldn't mind if I grew up with two dads... at my ballgames, science fairs, where ever." If you can say that, you should be all for it.
If you asked the population if they'd have been happy being brought up by gay parents, the vast majority would say "no".
And if you asked the population of people who have actually been brought up by gay parents whether they were happy with that situation, my guess would be that the vast majority would say "yes".
Is there enough data on that to be statistically valid?
Are a truly random sample of children brought up by gay parents? I'd expect some large selection bias there.
Are a truly random sample of children brought up by gay parents? I'd expect some large selection bias there.
Just ask people `if they'd have been happy being brought up by [insert any religion, or lack thereof] parents, the vast majority would say "no"'.
How could that question not reflect respondents prejudices more than anything else?
If instead you ask people who actually know what the hell they are talking about, q.f. people who were brought up by gay parents, you will find the vast majority to be quite happy about it.
While mirror image thinking about gays is fun (they're just heterosexuals with a bit flip), it's not all that realist.
Before we get to adoption, lets analyze an easier statement: Gays shouldn't be allowed to become Catholic priests.
What? Can it be defended?
Well, you've heard about the abuse cases. Two-thirds of the problem, going by published numbers, involve priests who have sex with young boys. These are not children, but rather teenagers. There can be argument about whether homosexual sex with a pre-pubescent is really homosexual behavior, but there is no argument about post-pubescent sex. This is a problem with gay priests.
At most, gay priests make up 30% of the Catholic clergy. More likely, they are in the 10-20% range. The male population is 3% homosexual (yes, I know you heard 10% and that you should drink 8 glasses of water a day and that we only use 10% of our brains; the 3% number for male homosexuality has the advantage of actual facts to back it up). So gays make up an out-sized proportion of Catholic priests and there are various reasons for that. Guilt, etc., of course, and a homosexual seminary culture that is now being rooted out by Catholics who (somewhat wrongly) blame it for lots of things that are wrong with the Church.
Regardless, the gay Catholic priests seem to be committing a far out-sized proportion of the abuse. The Church simply can't afford to keep paying out the damage settlements that it would have to in order to keep its gay clergy. The congregations don't like the clergy having sex with their young boys either. Hence, expect to see less gay priests going forward.
While many gay men make wonderful priests, a few ruin it for the rest of them.
So, adoption? While a person could make arguments about equality and fairness before the law, etc., I personally have a low tolerance for that sort of democratic cant and tune it out. It's illogical rabble-rousing. As Socrates says (I'll point out that I'm a fan of the Symposium -- yes, that's the Platonic dialogue on love with a disturbing amount of gay sex thrown in), democracies equate things that are not equal.
Throw those arguments out -- which I do, and with prejudice -- and you have to make a case for choosing a segment of our population (homosexuals) that is more likely to do drugs, have psychiatric problems, etc., etc., and singling them out to allow adoption. It's not a brilliant move.
Aside: The percentage of the female population that is homosexual is harder to get a feel for, but somewhere around 1.5% seems to be exclusively homosexual. Bisexual behavior is much more common in females, or so Kinsey found. The weirdness of homosexuality in humans, a weirdness found in only one other mammal, so far as I know, is that opportunistic homosexual behavior. That happens all the time in the animal kingdom. It's exclusive homosexuality that is non-standard. That's bizarre from a fitness standpoint. There are some electrode studies (electrodes + dirty pictures, you imagine the rest) that suggest that there are no genuine bisexual males as far as desire goes, only males that are bisexual in behavior. It's harder to tell with females (30% or more are unaroused by dirty pictures of either sex, which ruins the studies).
Before we get to adoption, lets analyze an easier statement: Gays shouldn't be allowed to become Catholic priests.
What? Can it be defended?
Well, you've heard about the abuse cases. Two-thirds of the problem, going by published numbers, involve priests who have sex with young boys. These are not children, but rather teenagers. There can be argument about whether homosexual sex with a pre-pubescent is really homosexual behavior, but there is no argument about post-pubescent sex. This is a problem with gay priests.
At most, gay priests make up 30% of the Catholic clergy. More likely, they are in the 10-20% range. The male population is 3% homosexual (yes, I know you heard 10% and that you should drink 8 glasses of water a day and that we only use 10% of our brains; the 3% number for male homosexuality has the advantage of actual facts to back it up). So gays make up an out-sized proportion of Catholic priests and there are various reasons for that. Guilt, etc., of course, and a homosexual seminary culture that is now being rooted out by Catholics who (somewhat wrongly) blame it for lots of things that are wrong with the Church.
Regardless, the gay Catholic priests seem to be committing a far out-sized proportion of the abuse. The Church simply can't afford to keep paying out the damage settlements that it would have to in order to keep its gay clergy. The congregations don't like the clergy having sex with their young boys either. Hence, expect to see less gay priests going forward.
While many gay men make wonderful priests, a few ruin it for the rest of them.
So, adoption? While a person could make arguments about equality and fairness before the law, etc., I personally have a low tolerance for that sort of democratic cant and tune it out. It's illogical rabble-rousing. As Socrates says (I'll point out that I'm a fan of the Symposium -- yes, that's the Platonic dialogue on love with a disturbing amount of gay sex thrown in), democracies equate things that are not equal.
Throw those arguments out -- which I do, and with prejudice -- and you have to make a case for choosing a segment of our population (homosexuals) that is more likely to do drugs, have psychiatric problems, etc., etc., and singling them out to allow adoption. It's not a brilliant move.
Aside: The percentage of the female population that is homosexual is harder to get a feel for, but somewhere around 1.5% seems to be exclusively homosexual. Bisexual behavior is much more common in females, or so Kinsey found. The weirdness of homosexuality in humans, a weirdness found in only one other mammal, so far as I know, is that opportunistic homosexual behavior. That happens all the time in the animal kingdom. It's exclusive homosexuality that is non-standard. That's bizarre from a fitness standpoint. There are some electrode studies (electrodes + dirty pictures, you imagine the rest) that suggest that there are no genuine bisexual males as far as desire goes, only males that are bisexual in behavior. It's harder to tell with females (30% or more are unaroused by dirty pictures of either sex, which ruins the studies).
...you have to make a case for choosing a segment of our population (homosexuals) that is more likely to do drugs, have psychiatric problems, etc., etc., and singling them out to allow adoption
We are not singling them out to allow adoption, unless by "singling out" you mean "including in the same privileged class as straight housewives, baristas, scientists, garbage collectors, members of the armed service, naturalists, and, depending on the state, convicted felons."
Seriously. Parents come in all shapes and sizes--surprisingly few restrictions are placed. Why are gay people barred from adopting when longitudinal studies show their parenting outcomes are basically indistinguishable from "normal" families?
We are not singling them out to allow adoption, unless by "singling out" you mean "including in the same privileged class as straight housewives, baristas, scientists, garbage collectors, members of the armed service, naturalists, and, depending on the state, convicted felons."
Seriously. Parents come in all shapes and sizes--surprisingly few restrictions are placed. Why are gay people barred from adopting when longitudinal studies show their parenting outcomes are basically indistinguishable from "normal" families?
Just for my information, what do you mean by parenting outcomes? How is that defined?
There are a bunch of metrics out there. Off the top of my head...
- Division of child care and house routine - Ability to devote time to children - Self-reported satisfaction in childrearing relationships - Parenting awareness skills - What types of discipline techniques are used (i.e. reasoning vs. spanking) - Character of relationships with parents, peers, and other adults - Longitudinal studies of mental health factor (depression, acting out, ...)
Obviously, controls and sample distribution are complicated. You also need to separate the fact that more gay couples are adopting children from one partner's previous marriage which dissolved when they came out to themselves and/or their spouse. That can be stressful--but it can also bring a family together. I've heard stories from all over the map.
- Division of child care and house routine - Ability to devote time to children - Self-reported satisfaction in childrearing relationships - Parenting awareness skills - What types of discipline techniques are used (i.e. reasoning vs. spanking) - Character of relationships with parents, peers, and other adults - Longitudinal studies of mental health factor (depression, acting out, ...)
Obviously, controls and sample distribution are complicated. You also need to separate the fact that more gay couples are adopting children from one partner's previous marriage which dissolved when they came out to themselves and/or their spouse. That can be stressful--but it can also bring a family together. I've heard stories from all over the map.
Success of the offspring, perhaps? Professionally, emotionally, etc.
I don't think that convicted felons, baristi, or garbage men are great choices for adoption either. The first, obviously, the second two because we can afford to have high standards. We can afford to insist on college degrees and middle-class incomes. High standards.
Now, the problem that gay men seem to have with sexual abuse (while Catholic) wasn't enough to give you pause? It gives me pause. I'm even worried about allowing men (gay or straight) to be baby sitters. Because sexual abuse is an out-sized male thing. Does it bother me that men would be harmed by this restriction? No. Identity politics disgust me, even white male identity politics.
On to your argument. Why have high standards for adoption? Because there are too many people who want to adopt (white kids), and too few (white) kids to go around. Hence, we can be demanding.
Arguments to be "fair" don't go far with me.
Now, the problem that gay men seem to have with sexual abuse (while Catholic) wasn't enough to give you pause? It gives me pause. I'm even worried about allowing men (gay or straight) to be baby sitters. Because sexual abuse is an out-sized male thing. Does it bother me that men would be harmed by this restriction? No. Identity politics disgust me, even white male identity politics.
On to your argument. Why have high standards for adoption? Because there are too many people who want to adopt (white kids), and too few (white) kids to go around. Hence, we can be demanding.
Arguments to be "fair" don't go far with me.
Do you know any gay men? This is beyond offensive to me.
I'm a hacker, a Christian, and a gay man. I've been a babysitter and a church camp counselor (of children from fourth through twelfth grade).
Before you talk about the "problem gay men seem to have with sexual abuse," we should talk. A man's value is not defined by his sexual orientation.
I'm a hacker, a Christian, and a gay man. I've been a babysitter and a church camp counselor (of children from fourth through twelfth grade).
Before you talk about the "problem gay men seem to have with sexual abuse," we should talk. A man's value is not defined by his sexual orientation.
This is beyond offensive to me. I'm a hacker, a Christian, and a gay man.
Dude, I'm a hacker-herding atheist straight female, and that was beyond offensive to me too, so I figure between you and me we have all the bases covered :-)
First time I have hoped that somebody was trolling on HN though...
Dude, I'm a hacker-herding atheist straight female, and that was beyond offensive to me too, so I figure between you and me we have all the bases covered :-)
First time I have hoped that somebody was trolling on HN though...
>> so I figure between you and me we have all the bases covered
You both list four personal characteristics. On all four I resemble one of you too so I guess I don't expand the "bases" :)
I also find his points are somewhat offensive. I say somewhat because I have learned that being offended by someones opinions (as opposed to him lashing out on you personally) is not a good thing. They are just that, opinions, ideas. Maybe thought inducing or maybe boring. Offensiveness alone, I think, should only ever be used held the offender when offensiveness was the purpose.
I also find his points are somewhat offensive. I say somewhat because I have learned that being offended by someones opinions (as opposed to him lashing out on you personally) is not a good thing. They are just that, opinions, ideas. Maybe thought inducing or maybe boring. Offensiveness alone, I think, should only ever be used held the offender when offensiveness was the purpose.
How is barring individuals from adoption on the basis of their sexual identity not identity politics?
For that matter, why do you think scientists or armed service members are better candidates than baristi or garbage men? Late nights in the lab, relationship failure, and heavy drinking are a part of the science life. For that matter, lawyers have some of the highest alcoholism rates of any profession. Shall we conclude that they are unfit, as a class, to raise children?
(Disclaimer: I'm a gay physics major with a boyfriend in law school. I'd like kids some day.)
I... reluctantly conclude you are trolling. Strange, you don't see that often here.
For that matter, why do you think scientists or armed service members are better candidates than baristi or garbage men? Late nights in the lab, relationship failure, and heavy drinking are a part of the science life. For that matter, lawyers have some of the highest alcoholism rates of any profession. Shall we conclude that they are unfit, as a class, to raise children?
(Disclaimer: I'm a gay physics major with a boyfriend in law school. I'd like kids some day.)
I... reluctantly conclude you are trolling. Strange, you don't see that often here.
I would argue that the problems with Catholic Priests is largely down to the requirement for them to be celibate.
Firstly it represents an important selection bias - most people would not want to promise to be celibate for the rest of their lives. Those who do do are likely to have 'outlier' sexual feeling and thoughts.
More obvious is that because they have no legitimate means to fulfil their sexual desires they are far more likely to find illegitimate means to do so.
A more sinister explanation is that they are attracted to the clergy because they are aware that it offers them the opportunity to commit abuse.
Firstly it represents an important selection bias - most people would not want to promise to be celibate for the rest of their lives. Those who do do are likely to have 'outlier' sexual feeling and thoughts.
More obvious is that because they have no legitimate means to fulfil their sexual desires they are far more likely to find illegitimate means to do so.
A more sinister explanation is that they are attracted to the clergy because they are aware that it offers them the opportunity to commit abuse.
How about just not discriminating?
Before I reply, I'd like to find out what you mean by that statement.
Do you mean, "Let us be willfully blind and refuse to engage our senses, not recognizing any differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals despite large behavioral differences (beyond sexual preference) which do exist."
Or do you mean, "Despite your arguments, I categorically state that no differences between these groups exist (beyond the sexual preference of each). I state this without any argument of my own, please accept it for no reason that I care to state."
Do you mean, "Let us be willfully blind and refuse to engage our senses, not recognizing any differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals despite large behavioral differences (beyond sexual preference) which do exist."
Or do you mean, "Despite your arguments, I categorically state that no differences between these groups exist (beyond the sexual preference of each). I state this without any argument of my own, please accept it for no reason that I care to state."
Sure, there are certain differences in the median characteristics of different demographic groups. The median teenager is a less safe driver than the median 30-something (as reflected in insurance costs). The median man is, likely, more promiscuous than the median woman. And so on.
Nonetheless, it's a tenet of polite, modern society that slight demographic variations are not turned into generalizations over entire demographic groups.
Not allowing gay people to adopt because they're "more likely" to commit abuses is discrimination, whether or not you have the data to prove the logical statement.
Nonetheless, it's a tenet of polite, modern society that slight demographic variations are not turned into generalizations over entire demographic groups.
Not allowing gay people to adopt because they're "more likely" to commit abuses is discrimination, whether or not you have the data to prove the logical statement.
> Nonetheless, it's a tenet of polite, modern society that slight demographic variations are not turned into generalizations over entire demographic groups.
Howver, a corollary of this tenet of modern society is that unequal representation in a given field/endeavor is prima facie evidence of discrimination, regardless of differences in group median ability. I trust I do not need to provide examples of this?
Howver, a corollary of this tenet of modern society is that unequal representation in a given field/endeavor is prima facie evidence of discrimination, regardless of differences in group median ability. I trust I do not need to provide examples of this?
I've never seen someone straightforward enough to say that they'd rather be polite than logical.
I think that sufficiently sharpens the contradictions.
I think that sufficiently sharpens the contradictions.
Posting basically unsubstantiated contrary shit like this and ambiguous snarky replies is typically not a hallmark of someone trying to discover the truth; it's just an excuse be an asshole without real repercussions.
But just to make it crystal clear: you're not being down voted just because people are too polite to confront the truth. You're being down voted because you're not very smart.
Dude, you essentially made up or misinterpreted the numbers you're using[1], then you make what amounts to completely irrational sweeping generalizations based on nothing but two numbers and/or your (limited) social experience.. And, admit it, you know these conclusions are offensive. Not only that, but you can't even stand by your intentionally ambiguous statements about homosexual behavior after you post them -- you're not only an asshole, but completely gutless.
i.e. Shut the fuck up, kid. You have no idea what you're talking about.
But just to make it crystal clear: you're not being down voted just because people are too polite to confront the truth. You're being down voted because you're not very smart.
Dude, you essentially made up or misinterpreted the numbers you're using[1], then you make what amounts to completely irrational sweeping generalizations based on nothing but two numbers and/or your (limited) social experience.. And, admit it, you know these conclusions are offensive. Not only that, but you can't even stand by your intentionally ambiguous statements about homosexual behavior after you post them -- you're not only an asshole, but completely gutless.
i.e. Shut the fuck up, kid. You have no idea what you're talking about.
It's not politeness. It's an unwillingness to make sweeping generalizations about a group, especially when the generalizations are being used to legislate and codify discrimination.
I've never seen someone straightforward enough to say that they'd rather be polite than logical.
Try the average husband. When the wife asks "does my butt look big in this", there's an immediate and well acknowledged convention to be polite rather than logical ;-)
Try the average husband. When the wife asks "does my butt look big in this", there's an immediate and well acknowledged convention to be polite rather than logical ;-)
[deleted]
You'd be surprised at the number of straight-acting gay men that you interact with everyday.
You're basing your judgments on the flamboyant feminine gay men, the ones who you know are definitely gay. That's a very biased sampling to base your judgments on.
You're basing your judgments on the flamboyant feminine gay men, the ones who you know are definitely gay. That's a very biased sampling to base your judgments on.
Just as an aside, "straight-acting" isn't an appropriate term to use. It perpetuates false stereotypes of both gay and straight men.
What? I think you meant to reply to someone else. Re-read my posts and find any statement where I suggested any behavioral differences and backed it up by anecdotal evidence.
No, what he means is that, certainly differences exist - and there is nothing wrong with that or them (as you seem to be suggesting).
Odd, I made no assumptions about jgc's sexuality. I guess I assumed he was straight if anything. Just one geek rising in defense of another.
Would it be unbecoming of me to suggest that some readers of this thread might be interested in visiting http://GayGeeks.org? It is a not-for-profit side venture of mine.
Thanks for that. Just joined with the same username.
Kudos to this guy. It's sad that many people in society are myopic and think that this guy was gay. As stated, I think it's simply a case of one geek that was persecuted standing up for a fellow geek. The world needs more people like this guy.
I feel similarly as a gay-affirming Christian. Standing up for equal treatment of people doesn't make a person gay.
I donno about you, but I never thought the author was. I wonder how many people here did.
It's nice to see so many gay geeks 'come out' on this thread. I had assumed I was the only one. Sexuality is such an infrequent topic on HN.
> I had assumed I was the only one.
That's strange then because there are plenty of people here that have stated openly and without reservation that they are gay or transgender.
In a population of this size you should be very surprised if you are the only gay person.
That's strange then because there are plenty of people here that have stated openly and without reservation that they are gay or transgender.
In a population of this size you should be very surprised if you are the only gay person.
While it would be very surprising to actually be the only one, it's not surprising to feel as the only one. It's quite reasonable to believe that a randomly chosen person is not gay, so you can't just pick someone and think, he is too, fine, I'm not alone. Statistics are not enough, real concrete persons count.
Given the size of the HN population you could expect 100's to 1000's of people to be gay. It's true that the distribution is such that the chance that someone is gay is low but if you approach 10 people your chances are better than even that at least one of them is gay.
Quite a few of them are 'out' in public, google can help you out there.
Quite a few of them are 'out' in public, google can help you out there.
John -- congratulations in your quest. I never understood it and even after reading your description don't understand it. Turing had a great mind, but there are a plethora of people with great minds who were killed by society in some fashion or another because of being different. The Holocaust comes to mind. We could take up reams of paper with people treated just like Turing. What real impact does this have aside from making people feel like they did something of value? I really do not understand -- but that's not important.
Obviously this was great for both you and your supporters. I can respect the fact that everybody has different motivations and values, some of which are fathomless. So while I can't share your joy, I can be happy for you. Congratulations in accomplishing your goal!
Obviously this was great for both you and your supporters. I can respect the fact that everybody has different motivations and values, some of which are fathomless. So while I can't share your joy, I can be happy for you. Congratulations in accomplishing your goal!
Well I read two lines and stopped: "I’m not, so what was it that drove me to stand up for a gay man?"
Is that a serious question? Who the hell wouldn't stand up for a man who was chemically castrated for being a homosexual. I mean, what reasonable non-crazy-fundie person would support that?
Wow, I kept reading:
"Many of those people who wrongly assumed I was gay would probably be surprised to learn that I campaigned for Alan Turing despite having my own discomfort with homosexuality. I don’t have clear thoughts about whether gay marriage or civil partnerships are better; I’m conflicted about whether gay couples should be allowed to adopt."
Seriously? This is worthy of being the top article on HN. Shudder. Not rhetoric I'm proud of in the least.
Is that a serious question? Who the hell wouldn't stand up for a man who was chemically castrated for being a homosexual. I mean, what reasonable non-crazy-fundie person would support that?
Wow, I kept reading:
"Many of those people who wrongly assumed I was gay would probably be surprised to learn that I campaigned for Alan Turing despite having my own discomfort with homosexuality. I don’t have clear thoughts about whether gay marriage or civil partnerships are better; I’m conflicted about whether gay couples should be allowed to adopt."
Seriously? This is worthy of being the top article on HN. Shudder. Not rhetoric I'm proud of in the least.
Honestly, I'm more impressed with someone campaigning for what is logically right (even tho they have emotional hangups) than I am with someone who follows their emotions for the "right thing" but can't explain why it is right. The latter is just a result of luck.
I have had my own stupid emotional discomforts. None of them were logical, but all of them were easier to deal with when I was open about it. Get off your high horse.
Edit: strike that "get off your high horse" bit, its too reactionary of me -- sorry about that.
I have had my own stupid emotional discomforts. None of them were logical, but all of them were easier to deal with when I was open about it. Get off your high horse.
Edit: strike that "get off your high horse" bit, its too reactionary of me -- sorry about that.
It's amazing what people can overcome by simply being truthful and logical.
I suppose. I just don't like the fact that the article exists solely based on the premise that a nonhomosexual has to justify speaking up for a homosexual.
It's that precise dichotomy and separation that we need to be moving away from, not framing entire blog posts about.
It's that precise dichotomy and separation that we need to be moving away from, not framing entire blog posts about.
I mean, I don't like it either, but it's not at all uncommon for straight men to avoid standing up for gay men for fear of being perceived as gay.
I don't see the article as a defense of JGC's sexuality in any way, but as a challenge to stand up for justice even of those who are different from us.
I don't see the article as a defense of JGC's sexuality in any way, but as a challenge to stand up for justice even of those who are different from us.
Sure, I agree with that, but it is nice to show the world that "non-members of group X" can stand up for group X anyway. This is still a bit of a tricky thing. See non-members sticking up for a group can imply weakness, and goes against certain empowerment based philosophies. Think how many times you've seen the equivalent of "I don't need you to fight my battles" in some "X movement" themed movie.
I don't think that the idea was "Why would you stand up for a gay man if you're not gay?". It was more along the lines of "Since you are not a representative of this group, what would give you the motivation to pick up THIS particular cup and follow it through to completion?" There are lots of other injustices that he might be a representative member of and could have campaigned against.
I'm really happy that he picked it up on principle. In a way, it's a lot more pure that someone _not_ gay spearheaded the effort so there is no appearance of a conflict of interest (rational or irrational). Turing was the man, and I'm glad Britain recognizes that now.
I'm really happy that he picked it up on principle. In a way, it's a lot more pure that someone _not_ gay spearheaded the effort so there is no appearance of a conflict of interest (rational or irrational). Turing was the man, and I'm glad Britain recognizes that now.
I got the impression he was writing it from the perspective of someone who would be asking those questions.
To me, it boils down to my belief that many people wouldn't accept this statement by P. C. Hodgell†:
"That which can be destroyed by the truth should be."
Some people seem to be afraid of truth. I've noticed this when I've turned down cheese, and upon being asked why, saying I think it's unhealthy for me. Often they start saying why they can't live without cheese, or why eating cheese regularly doesn't increase the risk of disease unless you have a certain risk factor (like high blood pressure or a sedentary lifestyle). This happens without me doing anything except turn it down. I find people have an easier time accepting it if I act like I'm turning it down for moral reasons rather than nutritional reasons.
As for how truth-avoidance leads to this: I think that people don't want to accept a certain truth often don't want to accept justice that's based on that truth. In this case, the truth is that, even though he's gay, Turing deserves fairness just like everyone else.
† I got the quote from http://yudkowsky.net/rational/virtues and am surprised not to be able to find it on one of the major quote sites.
"That which can be destroyed by the truth should be."
Some people seem to be afraid of truth. I've noticed this when I've turned down cheese, and upon being asked why, saying I think it's unhealthy for me. Often they start saying why they can't live without cheese, or why eating cheese regularly doesn't increase the risk of disease unless you have a certain risk factor (like high blood pressure or a sedentary lifestyle). This happens without me doing anything except turn it down. I find people have an easier time accepting it if I act like I'm turning it down for moral reasons rather than nutritional reasons.
As for how truth-avoidance leads to this: I think that people don't want to accept a certain truth often don't want to accept justice that's based on that truth. In this case, the truth is that, even though he's gay, Turing deserves fairness just like everyone else.
† I got the quote from http://yudkowsky.net/rational/virtues and am surprised not to be able to find it on one of the major quote sites.
I felt exactly the same way.
It seems as if this author had been living in Turing's time period his post would have read:
"I don't have clear thoughts about whether chemical castration or forced celibacy is better; I'm conflicted about whether gay couples should be allowed to be free."
It seems as if this author had been living in Turing's time period his post would have read:
"I don't have clear thoughts about whether chemical castration or forced celibacy is better; I'm conflicted about whether gay couples should be allowed to be free."
[deleted]
I'm surprised JGC was assumed to be gay for standing up for Alan Turing, but proud that he handled the assumptions well. From our perspective, Turing's story is so much bigger than his sexuality. But to the common person, who likely knows little to nothing about Turing beyond what the news says - that he was convicted of homosexuality by his country - this advocacy appears to be one for gay people.
Thank you, Mr. Graham-Cumming, not just for standing up for Turing, but for simply explaining you are not gay without getting defensive. Too often, straight men handle being assumed as gay as a terrible and dehumanizing accusation.