moolriaz · HackerTrans

vor 12 Jahrendiscuss

I won a grant to build, donate, and maintain Raspberry Pi computers to rural schools in South Africa (about 7). It was a large project. Absolute nightmare. In the end I just started buying second hand computers and installing XUbuntu (much higher performance, much lower cost). I donated the Raspberry Pis to a university engineering department and managed to buy double the expected number in second hand computers for rural schools, feel much better about it. Raspberry Pi is simply a gimmick for those that love that kind of thing (which is fine), but it should NOT be marketed as a way to get kids to learn programming, or as a replacement for a computer. It's simply too expensive, and does not cater to the educational needs of those struggling to learn programming/IT.

moolriaz

vor 12 Jahrendiscuss

Awesome. I'm learning about Moses at the moment (MT course at Edinburgh), see you worked with Ben Taskar also, RIP. Exciting idea here!

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

My bad, thought it was just a BBC article.

In South Africa there is simply no mention of an exodus today. This was before my time.

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

You're really thinking on the wrong level here. You're talking about SAT scores and affirmative action in the US. In South Africa, we're talking on a totally different level. I advise you do some reading on the extent on racial inequality in SA before trying to draw comparisons. You can start here: http://www.education.gov.za/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=qVocM3...

You're talking about getting into universities, the gap between black and white primary and high school education is massive, just to get the basic requirements for university entrance is a struggle if you come from a rural town and do not speak first language English.

Do not compare the US and South Africa. There is no comparison. BEE may be unjust (I don't think it is), but the scale of inequality in South Africa is overwhelming. Remember that over 85% of the population is non-white. I'm not sure how exactly what you say applies in a SA context, but income-based affirmative action sounds no different from race-based affirmative action in SA. I can put forward more relevant scenarios than the one you mention, I know numerous white people, both from poor and rich backgrounds, who have successfully gotten jobs. They are qualified. The same applies to black people. The unemployed people I know are simply not qualified, regardless of their race.

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

The person who sang that song was convicted of a hate crime, and is now facing criminal charges, so I don't see this as a legitimate reason to run away.

I would like to see some evidence for a mass exodus from South Africa, specifically would be interested to see if large amounts of money have been taken out of the country to fuel this. I don't think any data exists for this. I was pointing out that what was said was anecdotal, and am obviously aware that what I said is too. The issue is that this complaint about SA is simply not a realistic reflection of what is happening in the country.

BEE is necessary in SA. The extent of racial inequality even today is exceedingly obvious to anyone who lives in the country. It definitely isn't perfect, but any census data will still reflect that levels of unemployment among Black South Africans is higher than those of White South Africans (don't have time to look for the source now, but I read a paper on this). I don't see how there is an easy fix for Apartheid, and this is fine. I'm sure if we went and counted the assets of race groups we would find that White South Africans still have a much larger share, and a large majority of white people are employed in family businesses/practices established during Apartheid. Growing up in SA, this is just blatantly obvious to me. The job situation in SA is such that if you are qualified with a technical degree, you shouldn't have a problem getting a job regardless of race.

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

Definitely, it's a dangerous country. If you read my response again, I did not disagree with this. I just don't agree that there is a mass exodus of people. The wikipedia article you cite about this doesn't cite any hard data sources, and there are more relevant and recent measures like the most recent SA census.

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

The connotations associated with terrorism are simply too strong to associate with Mandela. People will take great offence at this, no matter what pedantic definition you want to use for it. Regardless, your definition still doesn't account for the fact that Nelson Mandela did not personally do any of these things, or intentionally target innocents.

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

That's a bit condescending. Terrorism doesn't have an accepted definition, and that definitely isn't my definition of terrorism, nor many others. Perhaps people living in America are more inclined to your definition.

I believe that terrorism is defined by the desire to cause mass fear in the general populace by intentionally targeting innocent people, to send across some political message in whichever guise. 9/11 was a terrorist attack.

The Spear of the Nation targeted infrastructure of the Apartheid regime, and the policies of equality upheld by the ANC and Nelson Mandela were widely supported by both white and non-white people in South Africa. I do not think these actions were aimed at provoking mass fear or lobbying an ideal not commonly accepted in South Africa.

This period is often referred to as a revolution, and successful revolutionaries are not historically known as 'terrorists'. In the Anglo-Boer war a similar tactic was employed by the Boers to great effect, but I have never heard of anyone referring to their actions during this war as acts of terrorism. They fought against an act of war initiated by the British, the same way that the ANC fought against acts of violence by the ruling regime, except the ANC were severely under resourced.

Again, the spear of the nation may have done this. This doesn't make Nelson Mandela a terrorist. If he armed a bomb, killed someone, held someone hostage for international attention, I would be far more inclined to accept your definition, as with others.

Given that even the Iron Lady apologised for calling Mandela a terrorist, I'd say the commonly accepted belief is that he is and was not a terrorist.

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

This is at best anecdotal evidence for a mass exodus of the 'best and brightest' fleeing SA. The only time I have been mugged, attacked, or stalked was during my time as a student in the UK (have had all three happen). Ironically I suffered a serious racist attack in the UK, where someone tried to stab me because I wasn't the right colour. The only time I have serious feared for my life. I have never had any such problems in SA. I have never been robbed, threatened, or put in a bad racist situation - this has only happened to me abroad.

For many of the millions oppressed during Apartheid, SA is far, far better now. Don't forget crime was rampant during Apartheid, and police protection was not afforded equally to those of difference races. My family, living in non-white areas, had a total of 9 cars stolen during Apartheid. This doesn't happen anymore. Crime statistics are far more accurate now, and show a decreasing trend since Apartheid, though of course it is still high. This crime remains mainly in township areas of SA - set up during Apartheid.

I'm not sure what you mean by success stories. There are numerous successful companies in SA, especially tech companies in the Cape Town. My family have risen from rags through businesses and professional work, and my father was able to rise to a judge where people are now fairly tried regardless of race. I'd say that is a success in the rule of law. Our government is not perfect (which is?), but it sure has come a long way. Just while growing up in SA, malls have risen, houses built for millions who lived in shacks, universities opened up to reflect the demographics of the population - the country has prospered even during the rescission, and property value and sky rocketed in some areas. I have numerous opportunities in SA, and run a startup there.

I carried out research both at Oxford, in the US, and in South Africa. The researchers I worked with in SA are as highly regarded as their peers in their field abroad (bioinformatics), as highly cited, and are happy in South Africa. I know of people going abroad to do PhD's, then returning to lecture here. I only know 1 other person who has moved to the UK permanently, and this is because they have no family in SA and no higher education.

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

Mandela is absolutely distinct from Ghandi.

While Ghandi lived in South Africa, he wrote racist slander towards black (African) people, referring to them as 'kaffirs' (the N word equivalent in SA). Here's a quote:

"Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness."

Ghandi too was not perfect, and also experienced Apartheid (most notably when he was kicked off a train in Pietermaritzburg), and demonstrated against it in SA. Though I do not think he believed in equality for Indians with Blacks.

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

"Weren't those laws only really enforced when coloured people broke them, though?"

What? 'Coloured' people also refers to a very specific subset of South Africans It doesn't mean what you think it does here.

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

Apartheid was a unique situation. Comparing it to Ireland is ridiculous, especially when you lack the perspective of what South Africa is actually like. Mandela averted a civil war - a real fear for many that were preparing to flee from the country. You make it seem like Mandela was ordering bombings from his cell.

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

If you want to learn more about what South Africa was like for people of different races before Apartheid, and the steps that lead to Apartheid, you should read the excellent book 'Cry the Beloved Country.' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cry,_the_Beloved_Country, http://www.amazon.com/Cry-Beloved-Country-Alan-Paton/dp/0743...)

The history of South Africa is unique, and you will learn something. These events are strongly connected to the discovery of gold and diamonds. Perhaps you've heard of the Rhodes scholarship? Cecil John Rhodes was a key player in these trades, and the Rhodes scholarship has a special status in SA.

Examples of previously white only areas : http://goo.gl/maps/JMQ07, http://goo.gl/maps/rz0bf

Examples of black only areas: http://tinyurl.com/pxpbwtq, http://tinyurl.com/kvxzm4l

moolriaz

vor 13 Jahrendiscuss

Shocked by how misinformed people are about Mandela/Apartheid, or by the amount of trolling going on here.

Thousands of white people have not died in SA thanks to Mandela. Mandela was not a 'terrorist'. Apartheid was BAD, and still affects the country significantly today. Here's some context for you. This all applied pre 1994/2:

I am a non white South African. The only reason I got a good education was because with the release of Nelson Mandela, my parents were one of few to study at a previously white only university, and qualify for positions previously reserved for whites only. They went on to run companies that they COULD NOT have run during Apartheid, have offices in places they could not have had before, have clients they could not have before etc. I live in a neighbourhood my parents could not have lived in prior to 1994, and study at a university my parents were not allowed to. These were white only areas only, because they are good.

My father was a lawyer during Apartheid. Black people were only allowed to represent black people. Almost all of the people he defended in court were put to death, in many cases before their trials were even heard by courts! Post apartheid, the death penalty was dropped.

My family had family friends that were white. They were never allowed to mix. My aunt wanted to marry a white (American) man but was forbidden to. They got married illegally. She was not entitled to live in the property he owned, as black people could not legally own property. She came close to being arrested many times.

Post apartheid my aunt and her white husband were married. She was allowed to legally own the property after he died.

My birth certificate does not have my parents names on it, due to Apartheid. Families were not formally recognised. I need to get an amended birth certificate to prove who my parents are, and I can now do this post apartheid.

My parents were also forcefully removed from their legally owned properties that were taken from them during Apartheid. Their property was seized by the government and never returned. My parents could barely even travel out of South Africa as flying over/travelling other African countries were restricted. They were even not allowed to enter many countries abroad.

And I'm not even 'Black'. My ethnicity is Indian. I am an Indian South Africa (of which there are millions). Everyone who wasn't white was counted as 'Black'. This accounts for over 85% of South Africa's population.

It is well known in SA that the US government actively supported Apartheid, and many people have a poor opinion of the US because of this.

If it wasn't for Nelson Mandela, I probably wouldn't even be able to post this. My family, and millions others, now live lives they simply could not have lived before.

Please explain to me how this is the work of a terrorist, or how in any way the work of the armed wing of the ANC was not justified by the Apartheid regimes massacre of innocent children and women , and torture of prisoners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soweto_uprising, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biko) and their numerous policies and their effects as explained above.

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