Twitter’s Ill-Timed ‘Frat Party’(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Twitter’s Ill-Timed ‘Frat Party’
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/business/twitters-ill-timed-frat-party.html
13 comments
discredited, but important
So even though the article wasn't true, and it was based on a completely fabricated story by a person who may actually be insane, it's still "important", because it provides ammunition to build up the narrative against those hated (i.e. White and Male) fraternities.
So even though the article wasn't true, and it was based on a completely fabricated story by a person who may actually be insane, it's still "important", because it provides ammunition to build up the narrative against those hated (i.e. White and Male) fraternities.
> discredited, but important
It was important only insomuch as it highlighted extreme bias in mass media. It was a wholly fabricated story and should not be used to shame frat culture.
Edit: to those downvoting, I'd love to hear how a fabricated story is somehow important. It was a huge blemish on Rolling Stone.
It was important only insomuch as it highlighted extreme bias in mass media. It was a wholly fabricated story and should not be used to shame frat culture.
Edit: to those downvoting, I'd love to hear how a fabricated story is somehow important. It was a huge blemish on Rolling Stone.
It's important because it focused national attention on a very real issue for awhile, before the story shifted to be about journalism. It's also an important moment for journalism, but that's not what I was referring to.
The UVa story was largely fabricated, but that doesn't mean that no one gets raped, shamed for being a victim of rape, ostracized for being a victim of rape, or encouraged to be silent when raped at a frat party at many universities. One of the most telling responses to the article before it was investigated was the fact that very few people were actually surprised.
That's important, even if the media successfully dodged having to deal with the deeper issues for another few years.
The UVa story was largely fabricated, but that doesn't mean that no one gets raped, shamed for being a victim of rape, ostracized for being a victim of rape, or encouraged to be silent when raped at a frat party at many universities. One of the most telling responses to the article before it was investigated was the fact that very few people were actually surprised.
That's important, even if the media successfully dodged having to deal with the deeper issues for another few years.
This is pure speculation on your part. The reporter for Rolling Stone went out in search of this story and interviewed at many campuses. The only account she came across was the fake Jackie story.
Since there aren't actually any examples of this happening, it certainly doesn't seem pervasive.
Since there aren't actually any examples of this happening, it certainly doesn't seem pervasive.
No matter which way I look this at this article it sends my brain into a recursive loop that terminates in WTF
1) NYT, this is not 'ill-timed'... this would be dumb at any point in history.
2) Anyone that can't/won't understand that 'frat party' is at best not inclusive but more likely degrading and offensive is completely unqualified to lead people or organize anything. They should be fired immediately but I doubt anything meaningful at all will happen to them.
3) Who even thinks this kind of thing is fun? Chugging beer... seriously? How old are the people who work at Twitter?
Ugh... this kind of thing makes me so mad. Makes me ashamed for my vocation and for my gender. These idiots get all the attention from the slobbering tech media who perversely loves to perpetuate the culture... grow up, get a life, and stop the madness already.
1) NYT, this is not 'ill-timed'... this would be dumb at any point in history.
2) Anyone that can't/won't understand that 'frat party' is at best not inclusive but more likely degrading and offensive is completely unqualified to lead people or organize anything. They should be fired immediately but I doubt anything meaningful at all will happen to them.
3) Who even thinks this kind of thing is fun? Chugging beer... seriously? How old are the people who work at Twitter?
Ugh... this kind of thing makes me so mad. Makes me ashamed for my vocation and for my gender. These idiots get all the attention from the slobbering tech media who perversely loves to perpetuate the culture... grow up, get a life, and stop the madness already.
The party's theme seems fine, it's not as if they're encouraging people to wear offensive costumes. Maybe they just shouldn't have called it a frat party.
"College Party Themed Party" doesn't roll off the tongue as well.
Welcome to our "College Party Themed Party with Typical College Party Games such as Beer Pong".
(it's NOT A FRAT PARTY!)
(it's NOT A FRAT PARTY!)
Just call it a Beer Party. That's what frat parties are, really.
Well, on second thought, a Beer Party isn't a good idea for a party. What about employees who don't drink or wouldn't be comfortable around a bunch of drunk coworkers? They should change it to a fruit parfait party.
E:
Being downvoted by a bunch of alcoholics I see /s.
The issue I'm pointing out here, in case anyone missed it, is that the party isn't welcome and opening to an entire group of people based on it's "theme". In this case: frat excludes females.
I don't drink. I actively avoid being around drunk people (though I don't care if they drink - so long as I don't have to be around them). So a beer-themed party would be very exclusionary of people like me.
I would not feel welcomed at this party. I would feel excluded and that I don't belong. So why isn't that an issue?
E:
Being downvoted by a bunch of alcoholics I see /s.
The issue I'm pointing out here, in case anyone missed it, is that the party isn't welcome and opening to an entire group of people based on it's "theme". In this case: frat excludes females.
I don't drink. I actively avoid being around drunk people (though I don't care if they drink - so long as I don't have to be around them). So a beer-themed party would be very exclusionary of people like me.
I would not feel welcomed at this party. I would feel excluded and that I don't belong. So why isn't that an issue?
In this case: frat excludes females.
A typical American university "frat party" is hosted at a fraternity, and also welcomes attendees of both sexes.
The drinking-to-excess issue is a separate issue from the party theme. It sounds like they were going for a "college throwback" concept rather than "drink to excess".
(One hopes that professionals in the workplace realize that they probably shouldn't drink 'til they puke and fall under the beer pong table.)
A typical American university "frat party" is hosted at a fraternity, and also welcomes attendees of both sexes.
The drinking-to-excess issue is a separate issue from the party theme. It sounds like they were going for a "college throwback" concept rather than "drink to excess".
(One hopes that professionals in the workplace realize that they probably shouldn't drink 'til they puke and fall under the beer pong table.)
I'm not saying my personal beliefs - I'm saying what others are taking issue with. The Thought Police are taking issue with it being a "Frat Party" because it "excludes women and makes them feel unwanted".
Or am I not understanding the backlash properly?
Or am I not understanding the backlash properly?
I agree - I think the backlash is because "frat party" is supposed to exclude women. Never mind that "frat" refers to the location, and not the attendees. Any actual "frat party" that I ever attended in college welcomed women with open arms.
Everybody likes parfaits.
Unless the females in twitter were somehow forbidden to attend, I see no problem at all with that. Beer and beer pong sounds like a lot of fun.
Anyway - Newton's fourth law - "for every action there will be SJW overreaction". The SJW are losing a lot of credibility behaving like that.
Anyway - Newton's fourth law - "for every action there will be SJW overreaction". The SJW are losing a lot of credibility behaving like that.
I'm sure the media is sensationalizing this particular party, but the key isn't to have parties where women aren't "forbidden", it's where they feel welcome and comfortable.
That is the whole problem with the existing culture of tech - we want to see more women engineers, but there are all these subtle things going on in the industry that make them not want to be a part of the scene. With my data set of sample size of 1 (my wife who is an engineer at a big tech company), it's all those small things that make her want to quit and do something else. There is just this bro culture, where she always feels left out. Simplifying it down to what's wrong with beer pong, beer pong is fun is really missing the big picture.
That is the whole problem with the existing culture of tech - we want to see more women engineers, but there are all these subtle things going on in the industry that make them not want to be a part of the scene. With my data set of sample size of 1 (my wife who is an engineer at a big tech company), it's all those small things that make her want to quit and do something else. There is just this bro culture, where she always feels left out. Simplifying it down to what's wrong with beer pong, beer pong is fun is really missing the big picture.
I'm picturing some slaveholders in the mid-1800s tut-tutting John Brown, saying how they see no problem with slavery (naturally they treat their slaves with respect and no slave has ever complained to them), saying how the abolitionists are losing a lot of credibility behaving like that.
Definitely. A more recent example is MLK's "Letter from Birmingham Jail", where he responds to white clergy who complain about his activism:
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.h...
A lot of people seem to suggest that society will magically get better without people getting upset about the bad parts. But when I ask them for examples, they get mysteriously quiet. A pattern nicely parodied by this cartoon: https://thenib.com/great-moments-in-peaceful-protest-history...
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.h...
A lot of people seem to suggest that society will magically get better without people getting upset about the bad parts. But when I ask them for examples, they get mysteriously quiet. A pattern nicely parodied by this cartoon: https://thenib.com/great-moments-in-peaceful-protest-history...
Your comment is so hyperbolic, it's as if normal logical discourse is a puppy and your comment is a hammer that you are using to bash it's head in.
> I see no problem at all with that.
Thanks for the heads up.
Thanks for the heads up.
> the females
I can't see this usage any more without picturing a Ferengi saying it, or maybe Davis Aurini.
I can't see this usage any more without picturing a Ferengi saying it, or maybe Davis Aurini.
The use of "females" as though women were biological specimens to be studied is a early indicator for certain behaviors...
Are you aiming to make a point here or is this a joke?
Do you really think describing women in technology as "the females" is something that should pass without being called out?
I expressed no opinion whatsoever on that issue. My comment was intended to be a kind of "-v" flag.
Am I supposed to just know who the people the poster was referencing are? This is a discussion board. If you have a statement to make, what's the point in shrouding it in such a vague kind of statement? What I wanted to know was "should I take your comment seriously enough to do enough searching to give it context on my own, or should I just ignore it?"
Am I supposed to just know who the people the poster was referencing are? This is a discussion board. If you have a statement to make, what's the point in shrouding it in such a vague kind of statement? What I wanted to know was "should I take your comment seriously enough to do enough searching to give it context on my own, or should I just ignore it?"
This was calling me out ... sorry didn't notice. But I did it on purpose - no woman around me has ever had problem with beer or pong. They only had problems with running out of beer. So these specimens that take offense are like a different species to me.
WHOAH. Did you just equate the female sex to the gender of women? That sounds very gender-normative for a discussion like this!
socially just story, bro
Just an application of Poe's law to help you see the pot calling the kettle black about diction.
I empathize with the plasticity that comes with repeating gender nouns over and over again. This and humaaaans.
How many men here would feel invited and included if their company threw a "Sorority Party" or, for the Brits, a "Hen's Night Party"? And that's before we even get to this being one thing among many in that environment alienating and marginalizing women.
> How many men here would feel invited and included if their company threw a "Sorority Party" or, for the Brits, a "Hen's Night Party"?
If the announcement said it was open to all, I'd feel invited and included.
The reason you don't see a lot of open sorority parties at colleges is that most sororities are not allowed to serve alcohol at events they host or cohost. That's a rule of the National Panhellenic Conference. This saves them about $100 per year per student on insurance, which is passed on to the students via lower dues.
There have been some sororities at some colleges trying to get permission to hold parties with alcohol, open to men, so that they can mingle with and drink with men but where they are the ones controlling the alcohol.
If the announcement said it was open to all, I'd feel invited and included.
The reason you don't see a lot of open sorority parties at colleges is that most sororities are not allowed to serve alcohol at events they host or cohost. That's a rule of the National Panhellenic Conference. This saves them about $100 per year per student on insurance, which is passed on to the students via lower dues.
There have been some sororities at some colleges trying to get permission to hold parties with alcohol, open to men, so that they can mingle with and drink with men but where they are the ones controlling the alcohol.
How long do we have to wait before the Pao case stops being dragged out as proof of 'sexism in tech'?
It seemed to me that certain parts of the media decided the case was a slam dunk, Pao lost, and now it's still being mentioned because...?
It seemed to me that certain parts of the media decided the case was a slam dunk, Pao lost, and now it's still being mentioned because...?
Because many people who paid attention to the evidence were horrified? Just because something is legal doesn't make it not an example of sexism.
Yeah, people were horrified, but mostly at Pao. There certainly wasn't any evidence of sexism there.
Pretty ridiculous that there would be outrage over red plastic cups!
I like how the very first sentence claims discrimination against women in tech and links to Ellen Pao LOSING her case as proof.
I like how the very first sentence claims discrimination against women in tech and links to Ellen Pao LOSING her case as proof.
This might be problematic but it isn't sexist, and the media's obsession with linking every tech story to the Pao case is getting old.
If anything, this discriminates against older employees. When I was in college, there were always a lot of girls at house parties, but never any 50-year-old VPs of Engineering.
If anything, this discriminates against older employees. When I was in college, there were always a lot of girls at house parties, but never any 50-year-old VPs of Engineering.
Really? Now you can't have company parties with a college party theme?
When are we just going to come out and say that all of this moral outrage has jumped the shark?
When are we just going to come out and say that all of this moral outrage has jumped the shark?
Fraternities generally don't include women.
Fraternity parties sure do.
I've gone to frat parties where women get in for free. (Whereas men have to pay $5 cover.)
... and so the role women play at a frat party is the role the company thinks women should play in the company? You're not making this look any better an idea.
what role do you think that is?
I'm not defending Twitter, just pointing out a basic fact. I have no real horse in this particular dogfight.
Fair enough!
This is not the creation of a Twitter fraternity. It's a frat-themed party. It's about beer pong and drinking games with cards, not exclusionary gender politics. The only people complaining about this are the professionally outraged classes of the twitterati.
A Fraternity is all male. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternity
It would have been different if they called it a college party.
It would have been different if they called it a college party.
> A Fraternity is all male. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternity
From the second paragraph of your own link: "In many instances membership in a fraternity is limited to males, but this is not always the case, and there are mixed male and female and even wholly female fraternities"
Particularly, in the collegiate context evoked by the phrase used, "fraternities" is generally the term used for all-male or co-ed societies of a particular type, while the corresponding term for all-female societies is "sororities".
That being said, "Frat party" certainly has a gendered connotation/implication, its just not a simple definitional thing of the type you present it as.
From the second paragraph of your own link: "In many instances membership in a fraternity is limited to males, but this is not always the case, and there are mixed male and female and even wholly female fraternities"
Particularly, in the collegiate context evoked by the phrase used, "fraternities" is generally the term used for all-male or co-ed societies of a particular type, while the corresponding term for all-female societies is "sororities".
That being said, "Frat party" certainly has a gendered connotation/implication, its just not a simple definitional thing of the type you present it as.
Are you really trying to make the argument that a "fraternity" is a gender neutral organization? That's the direction you want to take the discussion?
A fraternal society refers to the nature of the organization, has nothing to do with the sex of the individuals that make it up. Males/females could operate interchangeably in roles inside a fraternal organization.
> It would have been different if they called it a college party.
The connotation being that colleges have no history excluding individuals based on their sex? Just as there have been male or female-only frats, haven't there also been male and female-only colleges?
> It would have been different if they called it a college party.
The connotation being that colleges have no history excluding individuals based on their sex? Just as there have been male or female-only frats, haven't there also been male and female-only colleges?
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Lots of comments here focusing solely on the beer pong aspect of frat parties. You guys aren't wrong: there's nothing sexist about beer pong.
The use of the word 'frat' really is the difference here. Beer and beer pong are the obvious connotations with frat parties. Scantily clad women, roofies, and rape, are some others, even if those associations are unfair. Why in the world would you associate your company with something like that?
The party itself isn't some egregious, unforgivable mistake, but the fact that while under investigation for gender discrimination, it does something like this, illustrates to me that Twitter is pretty oblivious to the problem.
The use of the word 'frat' really is the difference here. Beer and beer pong are the obvious connotations with frat parties. Scantily clad women, roofies, and rape, are some others, even if those associations are unfair. Why in the world would you associate your company with something like that?
The party itself isn't some egregious, unforgivable mistake, but the fact that while under investigation for gender discrimination, it does something like this, illustrates to me that Twitter is pretty oblivious to the problem.
Perfect summary. Don't forget racism as an additional association. I'm not sure why there is an overwhelming atmosphere of denial on HN whenever the topic of women in tech comes up. What's the deal? Do you think women are adequately represented in tech jobs? What about minorities?
I assume it has to do with the meritocracy myth. There's quite a bit of good writing about it. Here's one piece: https://medium.com/@jocelyngoldfein/techs-meritocracy-proble...
There are a group of men who joined the profession because of the exclusionary atmosphere: it makes them feel special and elite. You can see this in the study of interest in computer science classes depending on classroom atmosphere: the hyper-masculine condition has a rise in male interest at the same time women's interest falls dramatically (http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim...)
There are some people who just don't want anything to change and resent the effort required to think about people who are different from them, but there are others who have ego invested in maintaining the exclusionary atmosphere of the profession. I suspect, though I don't have a citation, that those people are also more likely to participate in forums like Hacker's News that reinforce that sense of being special.
There are some people who just don't want anything to change and resent the effort required to think about people who are different from them, but there are others who have ego invested in maintaining the exclusionary atmosphere of the profession. I suspect, though I don't have a citation, that those people are also more likely to participate in forums like Hacker's News that reinforce that sense of being special.
Frats are only for white people? I guess these folks[0] didn't get the memo
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_Greek...
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_Greek...
You really think if they called it a 'Greek party' instead there would've been no 'offense' taken?
Um, maybe? There's a whole list of unacceptable types of parties for companies to host.
Greek may have generated less uproar, but that's not the word they chose.
Greek may have generated less uproar, but that's not the word they chose.
If a workplace is seeking diversity, I think there's also something problematic about a very alcohol-driven work culture. The Geek Feminism wiki points out a number of problems with an alcohol-focused event:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Women-friendly_events#Alc...
One thing that was hard for me as a guy to learn is that women can reasonably see all guys as Schrodinger's Rapist:
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-sch...
If one is continually performing the "will I be safe" calculus, alcohol clearly increase risk. Much more so at a party whose whole purpose is getting smashed, and which has strong connotations of college sexual dynamics.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Women-friendly_events#Alc...
One thing that was hard for me as a guy to learn is that women can reasonably see all guys as Schrodinger's Rapist:
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-sch...
If one is continually performing the "will I be safe" calculus, alcohol clearly increase risk. Much more so at a party whose whole purpose is getting smashed, and which has strong connotations of college sexual dynamics.
I'd DDoS your up arrow if I could. I'm not a woman... but after discovering that I have a severe allergy to alcohol I don't drink at all anymore and there is no way I would feel comfortable attending an event that was so focused on drinking. On top of that, even as a man I would feel unsafe in such an environment... unfathomable to me how it would feel if I was a woman.
There is a big difference between a party themed "Corporate CEO's and HOES" (Penn State+) and people getting together to play beer pong. Beer pong's likability is analogous to Corn Hole. Anyone can do it. Almost anywhere.
The sign than reads "Twitter Frat House" is unnecessary.
The sign than reads "Twitter Frat House" is unnecessary.
This is feminism gone insane. Do these people go around trying to find stuff to be offended by?
"Frat party" is offensive now? What about the very existence of frats altogether. Should we ban those? Oh what about men's clubs? What about groups of men? Tell you what, why don't we ban men gathering in groups of 3 or more. That oughta correct sexism.
"Frat party" is offensive now? What about the very existence of frats altogether. Should we ban those? Oh what about men's clubs? What about groups of men? Tell you what, why don't we ban men gathering in groups of 3 or more. That oughta correct sexism.
"Frat party" is offensive now? What about the very existence of frats altogether. Should we ban those? Oh what about men's clubs? What about groups of men?
Some people do believe that any men organizing and assembling in groups - specifically as men, and excluding women by choice - is actually unacceptable.
It would be interesting to compare the set of people who believe that, with the set of people who believe that exclusionary, so-called "safe spaces" are fine for women and/or minorities.
(Obviously, no sex-exclusive "safe spaces" are permissible for men, for any reason.)
Some people do believe that any men organizing and assembling in groups - specifically as men, and excluding women by choice - is actually unacceptable.
It would be interesting to compare the set of people who believe that, with the set of people who believe that exclusionary, so-called "safe spaces" are fine for women and/or minorities.
(Obviously, no sex-exclusive "safe spaces" are permissible for men, for any reason.)
> What about the very existence of frats altogether. Should we ban those?
A lot of people think so. ;)
A lot of people think so. ;)
Yeah that's true. But my take on that is if a group of people wants to self-segregate and socialize separately then the state or society ought not to have authority to stop that.
Circular logic.
> Do these people go around trying to find stuff to be offended by?
No one said anything about being offended.
What they did do was identify a problem, based on it fitting the pattern of other things that are empirically problems. This is literally what hackers do. Hand us a codebase, we will go around looking for problems, calling attention to them, and fixing them. Hand us a legal situation (like copyright law on software), we'll investigate it and figure out ways to fix it. Hand us an industry, we'll find the inefficiencies and disrupt it.
There are certainly people who don't really feel compelled to call attention to problems. They tend to be either non-hackers who don't notice problems and have trouble believing reports of problems ("We take your security very seriously and follow industry best practice"), or malicious hackers who understand a problem but are benefiting from it continuing to exist.
No one said anything about being offended.
What they did do was identify a problem, based on it fitting the pattern of other things that are empirically problems. This is literally what hackers do. Hand us a codebase, we will go around looking for problems, calling attention to them, and fixing them. Hand us a legal situation (like copyright law on software), we'll investigate it and figure out ways to fix it. Hand us an industry, we'll find the inefficiencies and disrupt it.
There are certainly people who don't really feel compelled to call attention to problems. They tend to be either non-hackers who don't notice problems and have trouble believing reports of problems ("We take your security very seriously and follow industry best practice"), or malicious hackers who understand a problem but are benefiting from it continuing to exist.
The problem is not just the name, and I recognize that drinking games are not fundamentally sexist, but the structure of a party with this kind of theme pays homage to a culture that has some deeply-ingrained gender discrimination issues.
It's not "ill-timed", it's just wrong.